00:00 Hi everybody,
00:02 welcome back to Governance in Action.
00:03 This is actually,
00:04 uh,
00:04 our first chat on the new fiscal year,
00:08 and,
00:08 uh,
00:09 uh,
00:09 we decided to have a chat with uh Rita Ramalo.
00:11 Rita Rallo
00:13 is,
00:13 uh,
00:13 working the our new institutions,
00:15 uh,
00:16 uh,
00:16 unit in the governance,
00:18 uh,
00:18 uh,
00:19 department.
00:19 And,
00:20 and a lot of that uh that that new that new
00:24 unit
00:25 is about to bring in data
00:27 empirics,
00:28 uh,
00:29 to what we do in governance.
00:30 So,
00:30 so let me start from there.
00:32 Why is it important
00:34 to create
00:35 the data that we use in governance?
00:37 Where are we?
00:38 What are you guys doing?
00:40 Thank you Arturo.
00:41 It's,
00:41 it's great to be here and talk about the work of the new public institutions unit.
00:46 I think
00:47 data is crucial for any decision making
00:51 and uh there has been evolution in statistics and how data is provided,
00:56 what data is available,
00:58 and to some extent the areas of governance
01:01 or the areas covered under the governance GP.
01:04 Uh,
01:05 the data has been less common than in other areas like the areas covered by MTI or even
01:12 health,
01:12 for instance,
01:13 where there is a lot of
01:15 regular statistics being collected on the GDP debt issues or school enrollment
01:21 and for governance there's less of that traditionally
01:25 and I think now is the timing to actually
01:28 expand that,
01:30 um,
01:30 set of areas because.
01:33 Now with the how governments are becoming way more digitalized,
01:37 there is a much larger scope for getting that
01:41 data from governments to understand better how governments function,
01:45 how to make them more efficient,
01:47 effective,
01:47 inclusive.
01:48 We need the data to understand how they manage their public finances,
01:53 how they manage their people,
01:55 what systems do they use,
01:57 and make them,
01:58 uh,
01:58 you know,
01:59 make them able to actually deliver what they're supposed
02:01 to deliver to their citizens so I think.
02:04 Having this unit that centralizes the knowledge on
02:08 how data should be collected could be curd should be curated
02:12 and what are the data gaps that are needed to
02:15 make governments work better and serve better their citizens,
02:18 I think that
02:19 the timing is perfect now because it's.
02:22 When technology allows for that to
02:24 to happen and to have a somewhat of a mini data revolution that has happened,
02:29 you know,
02:29 like in 20-30 years,
02:31 uh,
02:31 uh,
02:32 ago in other parts of the the bank work,
02:35 thank you,
02:36 Rita,
02:36 and,
02:36 and,
02:36 uh,
02:37 as I was listening,
02:38 I,
02:38 I was wondering.
02:40 And
02:40 so in which areas we have had advances
02:44 and which are the ones
02:45 in which uh we need to work harder.
02:48 So could you give us some example in which areas of governance
02:51 we already have
02:52 some sort of solid data
02:54 and which are the ones that we need to focus more.
02:56 So I think there is a lot of great work on data done within the governance,
03:01 uh,
03:02 team within the governance,
03:03 uh,
03:04 global practice,
03:05 um,
03:06 and I think a lot of it happened in the past 5 years or so.
03:10 I think the big exception to the more recent period would be
03:15 PEFA,
03:15 which exists for over 20 years by now,
03:19 and that.
03:20 Systematically collected data on how public management,
03:25 uh,
03:25 public financial management works.
03:27 So and that has been very useful for
03:29 the bank operational work to help countries improve their
03:33 public financial management.
03:35 But in the past,
03:36 uh,
03:37 4 or 5 years we also saw the the worldwide bureaucracy indicators that focus on.
03:43 Uh,
03:44 public HR management,
03:45 we've also seen a few initiatives on the procurement side,
03:49 both trying to understand the procurement rules,
03:52 but also,
03:53 uh,
03:53 with the,
03:55 the global public procurement database,
03:57 but also
03:58 we proactive looking specifically at contracts and what can we
04:02 learn from those contracts both in integrity issues but also.
04:05 Uh,
04:06 market competition,
04:07 uh,
04:08 level,
04:08 so
04:09 there is an increasing data,
04:11 and I think,
04:12 uh,
04:12 um,
04:12 another very important one is of course the,
04:15 the GovTech Maturity Index that looks at the,
04:18 uh,
04:19 uptake of digital systems by governments
04:22 which,
04:22 you know,
04:22 cover all different areas of,
04:25 uh,
04:25 governance because they also look at systems both for
04:28 public financial management but for
04:31 uh public HR management
04:33 so there.
04:33 There is an increasing
04:35 uh data collection effort.
04:38 I think there is a need to make sure
04:40 that every data set meets the highest data standards
04:46 that are needed and that this data is properly disseminated,
04:49 properly integrated,
04:51 so
04:52 both people within the bank but also outside the bank
04:55 know how to make the best use of it.
04:57 I think in terms of
04:59 areas for further expansion.
05:02 I would think there are
05:04 a few one
05:06 I would say
05:07 on um
05:09 anti-corruption issues so I think
05:11 there is a lot of data already on anti-corruption elsewhere
05:15 uh not necessarily produced by the bank.
05:17 But I think there is
05:19 an area that is so crucial for the functioning of government that
05:23 there may be need to expand more and have
05:26 more practical objective measures that could be very actionable
05:31 for countries to um.
05:33 Uh,
05:35 uh,
05:35 work on,
05:36 I would say
05:37 there is also new initiatives on the area of justice with Jupiter,
05:41 so that's just a nation initiative,
05:43 and I think that would be a very.
05:45 Uh,
05:45 useful area to,
05:47 uh,
05:48 understand better how the judicial systems and how
05:51 people actually can have access to those,
05:54 uh,
05:55 systems,
05:55 um,
05:56 I think that's,
05:57 uh,
05:57 an important area.
05:58 I think the other area that we're also starting
06:00 to work on is more the linkage between.
06:04 Governance and climate change and understand a
06:06 little bit the governance of climate change,
06:08 what type of institutions
06:10 do,
06:10 uh,
06:11 governments need to,
06:13 uh,
06:13 tackle the challenge of,
06:15 uh,
06:15 of climate change
06:17 and I think even in,
06:19 uh,
06:20 public HR systems,
06:21 even though there is already a lot of
06:24 data,
06:24 I think that's such a crucial area for a good functioning.
06:28 Of a government that
06:29 that may need to have more cross country comparable area on uh data sorry on
06:35 the area of uh public HR management in
06:38 particular about the career streams of public servants
06:41 not just
06:43 what is the wage bill,
06:44 what is the wage premium,
06:45 but trying to understand what are the incentives that,
06:48 uh,
06:48 public servants face uh on their daily life.
06:52 Uh,
06:52 let me actually pick up on something that uh,
06:55 that,
06:55 that you just mentioned.
06:56 You,
06:56 you,
06:57 you,
06:57 you made a reference about
06:59 how institutions work.
07:00 Uh,
07:01 and 11 comment that keep repeating
07:05 or that has been repeating
07:06 over the over the last year when people refer to governance,
07:10 they talk about how uh the need to build institutions,
07:14 how to strengthen institutions,
07:16 and,
07:16 and,
07:17 and,
07:17 and the sort of.
07:19 But,
07:19 uh,
07:20 with a very little of understanding what,
07:22 what,
07:23 who's,
07:23 uh,
07:24 which are those institutions
07:26 and how,
07:27 or how do we define institutions.
07:29 This is something that you,
07:31 you,
07:31 you guys have been also working about.
07:33 Where,
07:33 where are,
07:33 where,
07:34 where are you on the,
07:34 on,
07:35 on,
07:35 on this topic?
07:36 So we are focus focusing specifically on
07:39 public institutions and so for us public institutions
07:43 are the
07:45 organizations
07:46 that help government like that make government
07:48 work make government deliver the services,
07:51 regulate markets in their internal
07:53 functioning as long as uh as well as the rules that govern govern
07:58 those.
07:59 Organizations
08:00 um
08:00 and with that we're actually looking at a new uh project that
08:05 already started before the unit existed but we're expanding it which is
08:10 the country level and
08:13 institutional assessment and review that looks
08:14 at different areas of public institutions
08:18 and tries to assess their quality and where are their strengths.
08:21 Where are the weaknesses
08:23 and what are areas for improvement
08:25 and they were looking at
08:27 all different aspects of public institutions not just necessarily
08:32 the ones that are just
08:34 public financial management or
08:36 public HR management but also institutions that
08:39 regulate markets that help deliver services to
08:43 um.
08:44 To their citizens,
08:45 even also pub uh political institutions that
08:50 help people have access to the decision making processes
08:54 that,
08:54 uh,
08:55 uh,
08:55 result in the policies in their country.
08:58 Anything else that you want to share us,
09:00 uh,
09:00 uh,
09:00 you're working on a flagship.
09:02 Uh,
09:02 you're,
09:03 uh,
09:04 what,
09:04 what,
09:04 what,
09:04 what is what the team is focusing now?
09:06 So I think the
09:08 main uh focus uh of the flagship which
09:12 will hopefully have a a concept note review early
09:16 in the fall or early or late summer.
09:20 Uh,
09:20 we're trying to bring more data and evidence
09:24 to the policy making or the decisions around
09:28 governance aspects,
09:29 so we're looking at the different areas
09:32 of governance,
09:32 but we're
09:33 thinking of it from a lenses.
09:35 OK,
09:35 now there's all this data within governments
09:38 and also outside that can help them make that those decisions
09:42 in trying to understand.
09:43 And what the literature says about that and how can this help operations.
09:48 So for instance
09:49 there's a lot of papers done on public procurement,
09:53 uh,
09:53 for instance with,
09:54 uh,
09:55 Ariana Bandera just as an example where they look at,
09:59 uh,
10:00 what is more important is it discretion
10:02 or having very clear rules for procurement officers
10:05 in there it actually depends on.
10:07 Where,
10:08 uh,
10:09 what,
10:09 what is the education level,
10:11 what is the capacity level of the procurement officers,
10:13 so
10:14 trying
10:15 to understand
10:17 how this new data and they,
10:18 you know,
10:19 to do this analysis they actually look at the
10:21 data provided by the,
10:23 uh,
10:24 public procurement agency you can actually try
10:26 to understand what are the better policies that
10:29 lead to better,
10:30 um.
10:31 Outcomes for um
10:34 for the government and also for their citizens so we wanna try to
10:38 um
10:39 expand the the the set of knowledge that governance has on the different
10:45 areas and what the research says about it.
10:48 Well,
10:48 thanks a lot,
10:48 uh,
10:49 Rita.
10:50 This is,
10:50 uh,
10:50 is really exciting the work that,
10:52 uh,
10:53 the team that you're working is is doing
10:55 and,
10:55 uh,
10:56 and as you say,
10:56 it's not about
10:58 improving the quality.
10:59 Uh,
11:00 of the data for the sake of it is for trying to design better policies
11:04 for public institutions.
11:05 Thank you and I hope to see you soon.
11:08 Thank you.
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