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https://delivery-p136806-e1377785.adobeaemcloud.com/adobe/assets/urn:aaid:aem:9133ea63-ff7a-4ea7-b6fa-c526adaa7105/play?assetname=PolicyResearchTalk-TaxPolicy.mp4
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World Bank Economist Dario Tortarolo drew on recent research on both national and subnational taxes—including value added taxes (VAT), personal income taxes, wealth taxes, business income taxes, and property taxes— to show how new data-driven approaches are reshaping how governments design and evaluate tax systems in real time, enabling policymakers to move beyond educated guesses toward informed, evidence-based decisions.
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00:05 Well,

00:06 welcome everybody.

00:07 Thanks for joining us today

00:09 at this um,

00:11 April edition of our policy research talks.

00:14 As,

00:14 um,

00:15 many of you know,

00:16 these talks give us an opportunity to present our work,

00:20 uh,

00:20 coming out of the World Bank's research department.

00:23 With the goal of sharing the findings

00:25 with colleagues inside and outside the department,

00:27 uh,

00:28 as well as,

00:28 uh,

00:29 outside of the World Bank.

00:30 So a warm welcome to everybody,

00:32 uh,

00:32 in person and

00:35 online through the Webex or the live stream.

00:38 Uh,

00:38 today's topic is revenue mobilization

00:42 is

00:43 especially critical for low and middle income countries.

00:46 Uh,

00:46 where tax systems often operate under significant constraints,

00:50 such as informality,

00:51 low tax capacity,

00:52 political hurdles,

00:54 and limited data analytics,

00:56 which frequently lead to ad hoc policy adjustments

00:59 rather than comprehensive reform.

01:01 However,

01:02 as we'll hear today,

01:03 advances in data analytics are opening new possibilities for evidence-based

01:07 real-time

01:08 policymaking.

01:10 To guide us through these new developments,

01:11 we're joined by Dario Totarolo,

01:13 an economist from the macroeconomics and growth

01:16 team here at the Development Research Group.

01:19 His research focuses on public economics in developing countries

01:21 and seeks to understand how public policies affect workers,

01:25 businesses,

01:25 and consumers.

01:27 Also the distributional impacts and the unintended effects

01:30 due to design issues related to tax policy.

01:34 And how governments can address tax avoidance and evasion,

01:37 especially at the top of the income distribution,

01:39 and with

01:40 April 15th coming soon.

01:43 Um

01:45 Prior to joining the bank,

01:46 he was an assistant professor at the University of Nottingham

01:48 and a postdoctoral fellow at the Institute for Fiscal Studies.

01:52 He holds a PhD in Economics from UC Berkeley and a

01:55 BSC and MSC in Economics from

01:58 Uh,

01:59 Universidad Nacional de la Plata.

02:01 He received the National Tax Association's

02:03 Outstanding doctoral dissertation prize in 2020.

02:08 I'm also uh delighted to welcome our discussion today,

02:11 Gabriele Naust.

02:13 She's a practice manager in the global unit of the

02:15 poverty and equity Global department at the World Bank.

02:18 Previously,

02:19 she served in various positions as,

02:21 as lead poverty economist in the

02:23 West and Central Africa region of the World Bank,

02:26 Latin America

02:27 and Caribbean.

02:29 And Eastern Europe and Central Asian regions.

02:33 She has led technical work

02:34 and policy dialogue on the distributional impact of fiscal policies,

02:38 ex ante analysis of the distributional impacts

02:41 of climate change and climate action,

02:43 and on methods and tools to decompose changes in poverty and inequality.

02:48 She's

02:49 regional analysis on poverty and inequality

02:51 in Africa,

02:52 global analysis on fiscal policy in developing countries,

02:55 and the barriers to women's labor force participation and agency.

02:59 So,

03:00 uh,

03:00 the

03:02 The

03:03 rules of the game today,

03:04 Dario will present for approximately 45 minutes,

03:08 after which we'll hear from Gabriela for about 10 minutes or so.

03:11 Then we'll open the floor to Q&A,

03:14 uh,

03:14 from the audience.

03:15 Um,

03:16 if you have a question,

03:17 please use the raise hand option on the Webex.

03:21 Um,

03:21 and if you're in the room,

03:22 obviously raise your hand and go to the mic.

03:25 Um,

03:26 just a reminder,

03:27 the session is being recorded,

03:29 uh,

03:29 so please ensure that your microphones are,

03:31 um,

03:32 muted when you're not speaking.

03:34 With that over to you,

03:35 Dario.

03:36 Thank you,

03:36 Leo.

03:37 Uh,

03:37 how do I change to the

03:48 That one

03:49 going through that.

03:53 But,

03:53 uh,

03:58 It's still not 2.

04:01 So I guess,

04:02 is this,

04:03 we have to do it in Webex?

04:07 Because I see here and slide show.

04:14 Bro,

04:14 yeah.

04:22 There you go.

04:23 Yeah.

04:24 OK.

04:26 full screen.

04:28 OK.

04:31 Let's begin.

04:32 Thank you,

04:33 um,

04:33 those joining online.

04:36 And those who made it in person despite the weather.

04:40 Um,

04:41 so now I realize by looking at the,

04:43 the cover of the slide that you know it could be,

04:46 well,

04:47 the,

04:47 the cover of a TED talk or even like a Quentin Tarantino

04:51 movie.

04:52 But don't get your hopes up,

04:54 still about taxes,

04:56 so.

04:57 So let,

04:58 let me,

04:58 let me start by highlighting two quotes,

05:01 um.

05:02 The first one

05:04 says that taxes are a necessary evil.

05:07 But,

05:08 um,

05:09 and the fewer we have of them,

05:10 the better.

05:12 What I want to argue here is that

05:15 taxes from an efficiency perspective are fundamentally bad

05:18 because they often

05:20 discourage something

05:21 and make the pie smaller.

05:22 So if you're familiar with the supply and demand chart diagram on the left

05:27 with is a tax here

05:28 and we see that quantities are decreasing.

05:31 But countries

05:32 need tax revenue to achieve

05:34 development goals,

05:35 so this is a green area.

05:38 And in the process

05:39 they typically create

05:41 uh losers and winners so the incidence of attacks or who

05:44 is benefited and affected is shared by consumers and producers or

05:48 whoever is affected by it.

05:51 Selecting

05:53 the

05:53 tax mix and levels is usually at the forefront of policies policies agendas,

06:00 and here we have a figure that I like a lot but we see

06:02 at the top of the figure that um tax levels relative to the GDP

06:07 and the figure is splitting this into um different income levels so high income,

06:12 upper middle,

06:13 lower middle and low income countries.

06:15 And also by the type of tax,

06:16 so direct taxes on income or profits and indirect taxes on mostly um consumption.

06:23 And then we have other sources of revenue.

06:26 So what's really striking in this figure is that you know if

06:28 you focus on the bars in the middle for each country group,

06:32 we can see that

06:33 they are very similar.

06:34 So in terms of indirect taxes are quite similar across the spectrum.

06:39 And we see big differences in,

06:41 in,

06:41 in,

06:42 in sorry in direct

06:43 taxes such as those on wages and income and so on,

06:47 so this is really where

06:49 um high income economies make a difference.

06:53 But,

06:54 um,

06:55 typically,

06:56 as you can see they do it in different ways and colors

06:59 and

07:01 What we see here is that there are some vanilla principles,

07:03 what I put at the top of the slide neutrality,

07:06 equity,

07:07 um,

07:07 and simplicity.

07:09 And we see

07:11 That,

07:12 um,

07:13 these are useful guides,

07:14 but in practice what we often see

07:17 is that setting up efficiency,

07:18 efficient and equitable tax systems is,

07:21 is tough,

07:21 it's a tall order

07:23 and here's the second quote that I want to highlight

07:25 which says that in developing countries tax policies is often the

07:28 art of the possible rather than the pursuit of the optimal.

07:32 I want to highlight 4 main barriers.

07:35 The first one is informal economy,

07:36 so typically employment and informal consumption,

07:40 and there is a,

07:41 a good policy talk by Pier

07:43 on this topic.

07:44 The second one is weak capacity and high compliance costs for taxpayers.

07:49 There is a very good talk by our colleague Oyola.

07:52 There are also political roadblocks

07:54 typically captured by elites,

07:56 um,

07:57 in the society and also resistance from

08:00 lower income people.

08:02 And then the 4th factor which is the one I'm going

08:04 to focus most in this talk is limited data analytics,

08:08 typically because

08:09 uh

08:10 you know tax or governments don't have time.

08:13 Or don't,

08:13 don't have the capacity to do it or they see no value in this.

08:17 But

08:18 we are lagging behind,

08:19 and this is one of the points that I want to make in,

08:21 in the talk.

08:24 Taken together

08:26 these four barriers,

08:27 um could rationalize why we have

08:30 inefficient tax and inequitable tax structures

08:33 that perpetuate in time,

08:35 and these are typically characterized by service taxes.

08:40 And that typically are production efficient

08:43 and also

08:44 marginal reforms or changes

08:48 rather than more holistic reforms,

08:49 comprehensive reforms.

08:53 So let me give you a timely example of what I mean by service

08:58 tax.

08:58 So taxes are typically taxes that are much easier to collect.

09:02 So in developing countries you know you create revenue quite fast.

09:06 But at the cost of

09:09 production inefficiencies.

09:11 And this is a key question to keep in mind when we think about these taxes.

09:14 The revenue efficiency gains offset production efficiency losses

09:18 for that tax

09:19 and also comparing to other tools.

09:22 So the fact that I want to focus on

09:24 for this example is the tax on mobile money.

09:27 Mole money adoption and usage has increased substantially in the last,

09:31 I would say 5 or 10 years,

09:33 5 years especially.

09:35 But so has the tax on mobile money transactions,

09:38 especially in African countries.

09:40 So this is

09:42 Possesses a complex dilemma.

09:44 So here we have 4 factors,

09:45 2 in favor,

09:46 2 against.

09:47 The first one is that this tax helps mobilize a fair amount of revenue,

09:52 so you can see in this figure

09:54 that I'm borrowing from a paper,

09:56 um,

09:57 from the ICTD

09:58 group,

09:59 and also some from the,

10:01 the Zimbabwe Tax Administration.

10:04 Especially in Zimbabwe,

10:05 right?

10:06 You can see that in 2024 it was like 5% of all the

10:09 revenue they collect.

10:12 The second positive aspect is that

10:15 with this tax,

10:17 countries typically can reach the informal sector.

10:19 So if there are some informal businesses that

10:21 are making some transactions with their phones,

10:24 then they are going to pay a tax.

10:26 And then the negative aspects are that of course,

10:29 as you know,

10:29 they discourage more money usage

10:31 and

10:33 Some people argue that they could be regressive.

10:35 We still don't know the answer to this,

10:37 so we need more evidence.

10:40 So let me illustrate this

10:42 from 4 countries.

10:45 I'm uh going to,

10:47 to borrow some figures from a report from the ICTD.

10:51 And I'm going to show you some evidence for Ghana,

10:53 Uganda,

10:54 Tanzania,

10:54 and Zimbabwe.

10:57 Starting with Ghana,

10:58 in this figure we can see

11:00 the blue bars are the total number of transactions done with mobile,

11:04 with their mobile phones.

11:06 And then the orange line is the value of those transactions.

11:09 And then the,

11:10 the yellow bar here

11:12 shows the introduction of the tax.

11:14 So what we can see very quickly,

11:15 this is more,

11:16 you know,

11:16 macro facts.

11:17 We can see that

11:19 despite the introduction of the tax,

11:20 we see that

11:22 the number of

11:23 er transactions keep increasing

11:25 and we also see that the orange line is,

11:27 is increasing as well.

11:29 When we go to Uganda,

11:31 we see the same

11:32 pattern,

11:32 right?

11:33 The transactions keep going up,

11:35 the green line keeps going up.

11:37 And similarly,

11:39 If we look at Tanzania,

11:40 so everything seems to be going up.

11:43 But there is a visible economic drag in this figure,

11:46 and as you can see if we project a line

11:49 through the,

11:51 the yellow,

11:52 um,

11:53 time series over here,

11:54 you can see that there is like a missing

11:57 mass

11:58 that we can calculate.

11:58 This is connected to the first figure that I showed you today,

12:02 the supply and demand,

12:03 when there is,

12:03 you know,

12:04 we are losing some welfare

12:05 when we introduce a tax.

12:08 The story in Zimbabwe is a little bit different,

12:11 um.

12:13 Zimbabwe introduced its tax in October 2018

12:16 and you can see it now just in,

12:17 in two months.

12:19 Three months,

12:20 they collected a significant amount of revenue,

12:22 but then in 2019 they collected 10% of total revenue from this tax.

12:26 So this is

12:27 No,

12:28 it's a lot of,

12:29 it's,

12:29 it's,

12:29 it's very,

12:30 it's a very important source for,

12:31 for these countries.

12:33 And this is a revenue that can be used for

12:35 development goals,

12:36 you know,

12:36 to fix roads and

12:38 social protection and so on.

12:41 As a benchmark because now it's uh

12:43 popular these days,

12:44 you can see that even you know it's collecting more

12:47 revenue than other taxes such as custom duties.

12:51 Now,

12:51 what's the issue

12:53 The key question is what's happening with money usage and

12:56 in particular also incidents.

12:59 So when we look at macroevolution of um number of the volume of transactions

13:04 er done with mobile phones.

13:06 So you can see that

13:07 in,

13:08 in Zimbabwe in particular,

13:09 there was a,

13:10 a big increase when there was a cash cri crisis at the beginning of the 2018.

13:17 When they introduce the tax,

13:18 we see that it decreases a little bit,

13:20 but then it keeps increasing

13:21 and the things get really bad,

13:23 so there is like a 60% decrease

13:25 when there were some more macro

13:27 restrictions at force.

13:28 So these are uh restrictions,

13:30 some bannings on some bans on mobile money transactions.

13:34 So here's where you see that

13:36 this is um

13:37 really affecting the economy.

13:38 So the point of this graph is that

13:41 it could be more than taxes and we need

13:43 More,

13:44 uh,

13:45 research to disentangle the effect of these

13:47 taxes related to

13:49 other confounding factors.

13:51 So what are some early reflections that I want to make out of this is

13:56 The tax can help mobilize

13:57 valuable revenue,

13:59 and it can help tax the informal sector.

14:01 There are visible welfare losses.

14:04 It doesn't seem to be breaking the economy.

14:05 It's an open question.

14:07 And

14:08 the third point is that the design

14:09 varies a lot across countries.

14:11 So it goes for example,

14:12 flat 0.5% in Uganda to

14:15 22 bands in Tanzania where there is like an increased

14:19 fee that they have to pay depending on the value of the transaction.

14:23 And then the second point I want to make

14:24 is that eyeballing trends like from this figure.

14:28 Eyeballing trends over here,

14:30 it's informative,

14:31 but it's not enough.

14:33 So we need more forensic microanalysis

14:36 to set a precedent

14:38 and in particular to

14:39 estimate two unknowns.

14:40 The first one is the size of the distortion.

14:43 And also the marginal value of public funds.

14:45 Marginal value of public funds is essentially

14:48 uh the welfare loss for each additional dollar collected in revenue.

14:52 And the second one is the incidence,

14:54 who is benefiting,

14:55 who is being affected by this,

14:56 by this tax and by any tax.

14:59 So more generally,

15:00 the point that I want to make in this talk is that countries have reached a tax

15:04 and data crossroads.

15:06 Um,

15:08 and

15:09 It's key to recognize that there are,

15:11 that these 4 barriers that I mentioned at the beginning of the talk.

15:15 Are not laws of nature and these are choices.

15:19 So for example,

15:20 whether to give a

15:21 tax relief via exemptions

15:24 or reduce rates on capital income or a particular sector

15:28 and the decision to invest in

15:30 tax capacity,

15:32 collecting information,

15:33 communications

15:35 to get,

15:35 you know,

15:35 kind of alleviate the political economy of reforms.

15:39 And investing in data analytics,

15:40 then,

15:40 you know,

15:41 seeing the value of data analytics for policy choices,

15:43 for policy decisions.

15:46 It's key to recognize that there is a tax credibility revolution,

15:50 um,

15:51 and

15:52 the key is that there is a landscape where we have like electronic government,

15:56 e-wallets,

15:57 electronic filing,

15:58 electronic invoices.

16:00 Artificial intelligence,

16:01 high frequency data,

16:03 global coordination,

16:04 and so on.

16:05 Believe me,

16:06 countries are getting so much data,

16:08 so much information that they don't know what to do with it.

16:10 So it's sitting in many cases it's sitting in the tax administration,

16:14 and there is value in this.

16:15 What can they do with this?

16:16 They can.

16:18 Improve the use of second best taxes such as value added tax,

16:22 personal income tax.

16:24 And they can better understand the best tools

16:26 like it's happening in Africa with mobile mining.

16:28 We need to understand

16:30 what is the size of the elasticity of that.

16:32 So for this I'm,

16:34 uh,

16:34 I have two points here.

16:35 The first one is we can use data

16:37 for ex-ante design so we can understand the anatomy of a tax,

16:41 a tax that is currently,

16:42 currently in place.

16:44 And the second point is an ex post analysis where we actually evaluate

16:48 past reforms and ongoing policies,

16:51 and we help governments contract counterfactuals

16:54 of policies or counterfactual scenario.

16:56 What would happen if we do this or that.

17:00 So the outline of the talk.

17:02 Um,

17:03 I try to be comprehensive.

17:04 I know where to skip if I run out of time,

17:07 but

17:07 I wanna talk about national taxes and subnational taxes,

17:10 in particular,

17:12 the value of the tax,

17:13 then the personal income tax,

17:15 and lastly subnational taxes because I,

17:17 I feel it's a very important topic that has received much less attention.

17:25 OK.

17:26 So let me start with the most important

17:28 uh source of revenue in,

17:30 in low and middle-income countries.

17:32 Um,

17:34 this tax has suffered from

17:36 efficiency and equity,

17:38 equity shortcomings,

17:39 but it's still

17:41 preferable to other taxes,

17:43 and the point that I want to make here is that this is a tax that can be improved.

17:48 It's a tool.

17:49 What caught my attention to,

17:50 to get into this topic and

17:53 write papers and so on is that

17:54 this tool is often

17:56 used to affect the economy and here I put P and Q.

17:59 So prices.

18:00 And quantities or activities,

18:03 but this is a very,

18:04 it's a costly way to pursue equity.

18:07 Or

18:08 stimulate the economy

18:10 and often has unintended consequences.

18:13 And the key,

18:14 again,

18:14 I'm going to repeat this many times today,

18:15 but the impact is usually not measured.

18:18 And the incidence is not well understood.

18:21 And this is especially problematic or

18:23 um there is

18:25 less evidence in low-income countries and low and middle-income countries.

18:30 So I'm going to provide some lessons um

18:32 for Argentina and Mexico.

18:34 This is in blue because it's connected to,

18:35 to prices,

18:36 so I try to play with this.

18:38 And then for Peru,

18:39 I'm going to show you some evidence on uh VAT that was

18:42 meant to stimulate a particular sector.

18:46 So let me begin with that.

18:50 This is a,

18:51 why,

18:51 why should we,

18:52 why should we care about

18:53 VAT cuts and prices because many countries are cutting the grocery tax rates

18:59 on food on a scale not seen before,

19:01 with the ultimate goal of helping the most

19:03 vulnerable cope with the soaring cost of living.

19:05 So essentially they cut the VAT

19:07 with the hope that prices will decrease

19:09 and this will increase purchasing power of people in difficult times.

19:13 So here you have a list,

19:14 non-exhaustive list from um a paper I'm working on

19:18 uh where we have on the left countries that have

19:20 abolished the VAT

19:23 or sales tax on food.

19:25 Then in the middle some countries that have

19:27 done partial VAT cuts and then some countries that were considering at some point.

19:31 This is

19:32 mostly for

19:33 after 2020.

19:35 So I'm highlighting in,

19:36 in yellow two countries,

19:38 um,

19:39 Bangladesh and Argentina.

19:40 I'm going to focus on this.

19:42 Why did I choose,

19:43 uh,

19:43 these two countries?

19:45 Well,

19:45 first of all,

19:46 because,

19:46 uh,

19:47 Bangladesh has provided unconditional support to Argentina in the last,

19:51 uh,

19:52 World Cup.

19:52 So,

19:53 I think it's fair to,

19:55 to give a space to this.

19:56 But second,

19:57 so I was in Bangladesh in February,

19:59 uh,

20:00 for a week and I was struck

20:01 by the

20:03 Number of VAT cuts that have

20:04 implemented since 2023.

20:07 Uh,

20:07 in particular,

20:08 there was,

20:09 when I was there,

20:10 it was a training on tax expenditures

20:12 and there was this VAT card I implemented at the end of uh 24

20:16 uh on

20:17 cooking oils.

20:19 Uh and the idea was to ease prices and ensure that there was enough supply.

20:24 This tax

20:25 expired recently.

20:26 There was big pressures to extend it to June 2025 and this is a very common thing,

20:31 you know,

20:31 there is a temporary thing and then people try to make it permanent.

20:35 But

20:36 there is no analysis of this tax and uh I,

20:39 I,

20:39 I,

20:39 what I want to argue is that it's possible to do it.

20:43 The second example is um

20:46 Argentina.

20:46 Why Argentina?

20:47 Because I have a paper on this.

20:49 It's the

20:49 best paper ever.

20:51 And

20:52 Argentina cut the VAT,

20:54 the value added tax,

20:55 so tax on consumption,

20:57 uh,

20:57 from 21% to 0%,

20:59 so pretty dramatic large change on basic foodstuff.

21:03 It was in place for 4 months and a half,

21:05 and the goal was to increase the purchasing power of,

21:08 of people in,

21:08 in difficult times.

21:10 So this is a photo of a supermarket

21:12 in Argentina.

21:13 You can see that there is a banner saying IVA,

21:16 that's VAT in Spanish.

21:19 And,

21:19 and you can see that they are saying that there are over

21:22 1900 products with 0% VAT and then they list the different categories.

21:28 So in a recent paper,

21:30 we analyzed the effectiveness of these VAT cuts

21:33 um

21:34 to lower prices and reach the target population.

21:38 What do we do?

21:39 We,

21:40 the products that you see in the supermarkets,

21:43 we have data

21:44 from these places.

21:46 So for every product in the supermarket,

21:48 every product has a barcode

21:50 attached to it and it's unique

21:52 and you can track that barcode over time.

21:54 So we have

21:55 all this data

21:57 for

21:57 all the supermarkets in Argentina where we observe the price and

22:00 the number of units that they sold weekly or monthly.

22:05 What do we do with this data?

22:06 We split

22:07 all the products that you see here on the shelves into

22:09 those that were affected by the VAT cut and those that were not.

22:12 So for example,

22:13 tea,

22:13 milk,

22:14 eggs,

22:14 and pasta

22:15 were subject to 0% VAT but not coffee,

22:18 cereal,

22:19 and crackers.

22:20 So we split these goods into these groups and then we track

22:23 their prices and consumption

22:25 over time.

22:27 What do we find?

22:28 We find that

22:29 um

22:30 what do we do with this?

22:31 So we compare prices of these two groups over time.

22:35 What we find is in this figure we can see time on

22:37 the horizontal axis and then the price change on the vertical axis.

22:41 And here what you can see is

22:44 That before the reform,

22:45 which is the first vertical

22:47 line,

22:48 you see that prices were evolving similarly between these two groups,

22:51 so that's why it oscillates around 0.

22:53 And then

22:55 The VAT quickly lowered prices in these chain supermarkets.

22:59 So these chain supermarkets are like the most formal and biggest ones,

23:02 uh,

23:03 like Walmart,

23:04 right?

23:04 So you know,

23:05 within one week you see that there is almost full pass through.

23:07 So it's a

23:08 large drop in prices.

23:09 It's relatively stable over time.

23:13 But it's not full pass through.

23:14 So full pass through would be if it reaches the blue line.

23:18 When the VAT cut

23:20 ended,

23:21 prices shot up even higher than the pre-reform level.

23:24 So this is one of the risks of temporary

23:27 tax changes.

23:28 And there is an asymmetry that has been documented in our in our papers.

23:32 So this means that prices were,

23:34 if the policy had not taken place,

23:36 probably prices will be lower.

23:39 But the twist,

23:40 the twist of the,

23:41 the twist of the paper is that

23:43 novelty of the paper is that

23:45 the government perhaps preempting that there could be an asymmetry.

23:49 They imposed

23:50 some caps.

23:52 On how much prices could increase,

23:53 but they did this for some of the treated goods.

23:56 So for example,

23:56 let's take rice.

23:59 Within rice,

23:59 you always,

24:00 you typically have basmati,

24:02 brown rice.

24:04 Organic rice and so on.

24:05 So there were caps on like the fanciest

24:09 rices like

24:10 uh organic rice but not brown rice,

24:12 the most standard one or white rice.

24:16 When we look at

24:17 those that had a cap,

24:18 we actually see that prices increase.

24:21 Less,

24:22 so it was binding

24:23 and

24:24 but they overdid it,

24:25 right?

24:25 So they were,

24:26 they reached uh

24:27 uh lower level

24:29 relative to the pre-reformed one.

24:32 Now a key question is,

24:33 this is chain supermarkets.

24:34 What happens in more

24:36 independent grocery stores which many people shop in those places?

24:41 In independent grocery stores,

24:43 so now

24:44 I'm going to move from this figure with weekly data to monthly data,

24:47 and I'm going to split this effect,

24:49 price effect into chain supermarkets

24:52 like Walmart and independent grocery stores.

24:54 We see the red line,

24:56 independent grocery stores,

24:57 we see that prices fell

24:58 less.

25:00 After the VAT cut.

25:01 So we see that there is a pass-through,

25:02 it's like a drop of 6%,

25:04 it's like 35% pass-through rate.

25:07 So prices fell less after the VAT cut

25:10 and they overshot more

25:12 after the VAT was reinstated.

25:15 So a key question for welfare analysis is where do people shop?

25:18 Because you know you see that

25:20 in independent stores it's much more limited than prices are increasing more

25:24 and the gaps are really binding in Walmart type of supermarkets.

25:29 Well

25:31 It turns out that low income people are substantially more likely to shop in the,

25:35 in these places,

25:37 independent grocery stores.

25:39 So this means that they benefited less

25:41 from the VAT cut

25:42 and they were negatively affected by the VAT increase.

25:46 OK,

25:46 so this is what in the paper we have a model where we

25:49 estimate

25:50 numerically the consequences of the welfare effect of this,

25:53 this reform.

25:56 One digression that I want to make

25:58 is

25:59 the data that we are using.

26:01 So this is the underlying what,

26:02 what I,

26:02 what do I mean by scanner data.

26:04 This is a screen,

26:05 screenshot from our data.

26:07 It's hard to see,

26:07 but let me tell you what we have here.

26:10 In this column,

26:11 the one,

26:12 people online cannot see what I'm point,

26:14 but

26:15 there is a,

26:16 a column here where we have a unique barcode.

26:18 This is the same

26:20 internationally,

26:21 so you can track the same goods,

26:22 so this is Coca-Cola.

26:24 And then we have the month of the year and then we see

26:27 in which store that is like a fake ID doesn't mean anything,

26:30 but there is a code attached to

26:33 that store,

26:34 right?

26:34 So this is the type of data that we are using.

26:37 We can georeference this data.

26:40 Um,

26:41 this is for a,

26:41 for a city in Argentina.

26:43 This is the type of data we are using in this paper.

26:46 So preempting a question that many of you might have

26:50 is this data only available in high

26:53 or upper middle income countries?

26:56 The answer is no.

26:57 This is not just not just in,

26:58 in those countries,

26:59 but it's actually prevalent in many countries.

27:02 We have an ongoing agenda with um

27:05 global tax program funded by the global tax program,

27:08 and thank you,

27:09 and the IFS and,

27:11 and CEFIP.

27:13 Where we have market data for over 20 countries.

27:16 And with this data,

27:17 so you see the countries here on the,

27:19 the chart on the right.

27:21 The one we

27:22 have money to,

27:23 to purchase are those in uh black.

27:26 So it's like a fee that you pay and you have a license to use it.

27:29 But then you can see that there is,

27:30 there are many countries

27:32 at different levels of development.

27:34 So it's a very interesting source of data

27:36 uh where you can track prices and consumption over time.

27:40 What are we doing with this?

27:41 We are analyzing,

27:42 for example,

27:43 the tax on feminine hygiene products.

27:45 These are reforms that are taking place in many countries.

27:48 Uh,

27:48 and also price and consumption,

27:50 uh,

27:50 habits.

27:53 Something that I want to,

27:54 to emphasize,

27:55 er,

27:55 let me see,

27:56 yeah.

27:57 Is

27:58 why do we care about,

27:59 why do we need this type of data?

28:01 Because we want to,

28:02 we want to know what the answer to this question is.

28:04 How is this?

28:05 How are these reforms,

28:06 VAT?

28:07 Are they

28:09 effective?

28:09 Are they or are they reaching the goal that they aim to?

28:12 And

28:13 this is just preliminary evidence from Mexico.

28:15 In Mexico,

28:16 this is using public data that can be downloaded online actually.

28:20 But in Mexico they abolished the VAT on women's sanitary products in 2022.

28:26 We check very quickly what happened with prices.

28:28 It turns out

28:29 the prices are dropping by

28:30 only 50% of the VAT cut,

28:32 right?

28:32 So it's like 50% is being

28:34 pocketed by the supply chain,

28:36 supermarket manufacturers.

28:39 So it's very important to kind of try to have a sense of like global evidence on this.

28:44 There is some global evidence,

28:46 not global,

28:47 but 55 developed economies,

28:48 and they find that path through is full in those countries.

28:52 So we see,

28:52 we,

28:53 we just have one example here but it seems that

28:56 at least in Mexico it's half of it.

28:59 And then the last point that I want to make about scanner data is

29:02 um

29:03 there are many of these market companies

29:05 that provide this type of data and

29:07 every country has one,

29:08 and they have this,

29:09 you go to a supermarket,

29:10 you see when they scan

29:12 that goes to a database.

29:14 The way I got access to this data was uh uh an anecdote

29:18 on LinkedIn.

29:19 So I contacted someone there

29:21 that I knew work at a company that have this data,

29:24 and then I set up a meeting

29:26 and then they gave me a quote and then I purchased the data.

29:29 This is,

29:31 so it requires some entrepreneurship,

29:33 but these data are available in many,

29:35 many,

29:35 uh,

29:35 countries.

29:37 It's expensive for researchers,

29:38 it's not expensive for countries,

29:39 for governments,

29:40 so.

29:48 1 2nd.

29:55 The last example that I want to um talk about,

29:58 how much time do I have uh Dion?

30:02 But

30:05 20,

30:06 yeah,

30:06 OK.

30:07 So I think

30:07 I,

30:08 I'm gonna go fast on this one because I'm presenting

30:10 this paper at the end of April in a,

30:13 a conference here at the bank,

30:14 but

30:14 the point that I want to make,

30:15 we have an ongoing collaboration with the tax

30:18 administration and the Ministry of Finance in Peru.

30:20 There was a recent in 2022 they got the VAT rate

30:23 for hotels and restaurants with the goal of stimulating the sector.

30:28 And we have this collaboration where

30:31 Peru has very strict data privacy,

30:33 um,

30:34 uh,

30:35 regulations.

30:36 So the way to access,

30:37 to work with them was

30:38 they assign a data scientist and then we collaborate with them,

30:41 we send codes,

30:42 they

30:43 send output back

30:45 and,

30:45 and this is a collaboration that it's time consuming but it,

30:48 you know,

30:48 it's an alternative way in which we can make things uh work.

30:52 So in this case in Peru,

30:54 it seems that the,

30:55 the VAT card is not working as intended.

30:57 So in particular there is partial take up which is shown in this figure.

31:01 Um,

31:03 The

31:04 tax is decreasing,

31:05 so this is a chart showing that tax,

31:08 taxes are decreasing by 50%.

31:10 There is a drop in revenue from the government.

31:13 Uh,

31:13 I apologize and I'm going fast here,

31:15 but I want to cover everything.

31:17 There doesn't seem to be any effect on employment,

31:20 so zero effect.

31:22 And then there is some

31:24 effect on sales and a decreasing purchases.

31:26 So the way we interpret this is that this is a sector that is known for a high evasion

31:31 and what we argue is that when you lower

31:33 the output tax,

31:35 then

31:36 firms start to accumulate a lot of credit.

31:39 So if they were engaged in fraudulent

31:42 activities by purchasing fake invoices and so on,

31:46 the incentive after this,

31:47 this reform is to start doing so.

31:50 So we are

31:51 trying to um

31:53 Dig into the mechanisms,

31:55 but uh this is still preliminary and I think it's uh important to,

31:58 to get more evidence.

32:01 So the takeaways,

32:02 VAT cuts have,

32:03 uh,

32:04 often have effects that policymakers didn't anticipate.

32:07 There is value of data analytics for tax policy decisions,

32:11 and there are some contentious areas around permanent VAT

32:15 changes that,

32:15 uh,

32:16 I didn't touch,

32:17 but I think are very important.

32:18 One of them is whether we should be having,

32:21 if we want to help the poor people,

32:23 do,

32:23 should we reduce tax rates or,

32:25 you know,

32:25 more targeted tax rebates like,

32:27 uh,

32:27 many people are.

32:29 Uh,

32:29 analyzing,

32:30 um,

32:31 today.

32:31 And then the political economy sometimes it's not feasible to remove exemptions.

32:35 It has proven to be very difficult in countries like

32:39 Bangladesh

32:40 and Kenya more recently.

32:44 Moving on to the second,

32:46 uh,

32:46 part of the talk,

32:47 personal income tax.

32:49 It's a tax we aspire to rely on but often fall

32:53 short of.

32:54 This is the most progressive tax

32:56 that we have,

32:57 but it's not very redistributive.

33:00 The reason is that

33:01 the tax base is porous.

33:04 In particular because there is informality

33:06 and there are preferential treatments such as special deductions or

33:10 even um

33:12 reduced rates.

33:13 So,

33:13 but typically it reaches the top

33:16 5%,

33:17 even

33:17 lower than that of the adult population in,

33:20 in many low and middle income countries.

33:23 I want to focus on two key design features.

33:26 The first one is the exemption floor.

33:28 So the exemption floor is the floor

33:30 that if you make more money than that,

33:32 you,

33:32 you become subject to the tax.

33:35 There is a beautiful paper by Anders Jensen

33:37 where he shows that as countries develop.

33:40 The employee share

33:42 Increases,

33:43 which means that they

33:44 uh transition from self-employment to employee employment.

33:48 And as that happens,

33:50 the threshold.

33:52 Decreases

33:54 across the income distribution,

33:55 which means that more people become subject to it.

33:59 But

33:59 in practice and in the short run,

34:01 it has proven very hard politically challenging and

34:04 costly to expand the tax base and,

34:06 and I want to argue

34:08 that by focusing on one example from,

34:10 from Argentina.

34:11 Argentina experienced with

34:13 in the last 22 years with base,

34:16 base expansion via

34:18 under indexing.

34:19 Underindexing means that they

34:21 Nominal incomes increase,

34:23 but tax thresholds are fixed and therefore there is bracket creep,

34:26 so more people,

34:27 you know,

34:27 your tax liability increases and more people start paying taxes.

34:31 This figure here shows the evolution of the share of

34:34 former workers

34:36 that

34:36 pay the tax,

34:37 and you can see that there is a lot of variability.

34:40 The reason for this is that there are different threats,

34:42 so there was a period of formalization until 2008,

34:46 but then there was inflation,

34:47 which means that more people became subject to the tax,

34:50 and it has been politically costly for

34:52 different governments,

34:53 right wing,

34:53 left wing,

34:54 and so on.

34:55 The government has been adjusting.

34:57 So you know,

34:58 we see that the tax base is expanding but all of a

35:00 sudden they have to cut it because it's politically very costly.

35:05 And

35:05 it seems

35:06 to me at least that they have overdid it in the last period of time.

35:11 Um,

35:12 you know,

35:12 again,

35:12 this is a good tax we have been discussing

35:15 in,

35:15 in many countries they often discussing like ways to decrease it rather than

35:20 increase it,

35:20 but again it's it's like a political economy

35:22 issue that it's very difficult to sort out

35:25 and we need data for this.

35:26 So this is just a screenshot of uh

35:28 the metro station in Buenos Aires.

35:30 Where they are saying damn tax on labor and there is like a national strike to,

35:34 you know,

35:35 kind of

35:36 decrease it.

35:38 The second feature that I want to focus on is the scope.

35:42 There is a long standing debate on whether

35:45 income taxes should be comprehensive,

35:47 meaning they tax

35:48 all the income sources,

35:50 or whether we should have like a dual.

35:53 Schedule our tax system in which you have like progressive rates for labor income

35:58 and then

35:59 different flat rates for for

36:01 for capital income.

36:03 there is a debate.

36:05 Um,

36:06 what I want to argue here is that regardless of this debate,

36:09 it's key to have

36:11 a better diagnostic

36:12 and better impact measures of um

36:15 what's going on in low and middle-income countries,

36:18 in particular,

36:19 to

36:21 Shed some evidence on the,

36:22 on this debate on comprehensive versus dual.

36:24 It's key to understand that capital

36:26 and labor income boundaries are often

36:29 blurry

36:30 and unclear.

36:32 And the second one is that

36:33 there is some,

36:33 some,

36:34 there is a paper by Piketty and coauthors that show that the tax differential,

36:38 so whether you apply a lower tax rate to capital income,

36:40 that differential

36:42 declines with the income shifting in artisticity.

36:44 So

36:45 income shifting ethicity is the ability for let's say a capital rentier

36:49 or an

36:50 executive of a firm.

36:52 To declare income as labor income or to declare it as dividend,

36:56 OK?

36:57 So it's very important to measure the size of this elasticity.

36:59 We know zero or very little about this.

37:03 So for this second point I want to highlight some

37:07 great evidence from Honduras.

37:08 This is work by Tiago Scott Pierre who is or was sitting here

37:13 and

37:14 Um,

37:15 and it's,

37:15 it's a great type of collaboration that they managed to develop

37:19 with the tax administration in Honduras.

37:22 What do they do in this work?

37:24 They assess the effective tax rate of top earners.

37:27 The effective tax rate is the percentage of the income that they pay in taxes,

37:31 right?

37:32 The key of this work is that they have

37:34 a comprehensive view

37:36 of

37:36 all the income sources of Honduras

37:39 by linking

37:40 personal income tax records to corporate

37:43 tax records.

37:44 And with this

37:46 Analysis with these tools,

37:47 what they do is they assign and distributed profits,

37:51 so retained earnings from a company,

37:53 they assign that to the shareholders of those companies.

37:57 What do they find?

37:57 They find that at least in Honduras,

37:59 it seems that

38:00 effective tax rates increase,

38:02 so the progressivity increases all the way to the top.

38:05 This is for the richest,

38:06 so something I want to emphasize is

38:09 personal income tax in Honduras applies to the top,

38:12 um,

38:12 75,000 people,

38:14 like top 1.5%.

38:16 OK,

38:16 so it's really targeted at the top.

38:19 We see that it increases with,

38:20 with,

38:20 uh,

38:21 income.

38:23 But the key is that when you decompose this into different sources,

38:26 we see that.

38:28 It's mostly undistributed profits at the top,

38:31 so it's the blue shaded area,

38:33 what matters and

38:34 Uh,

38:35 it's what dominates at the top,

38:36 and this is what it,

38:37 what is.

38:38 Uh,

38:39 working as a backstop

38:40 for the personal income tax in the sense,

38:42 you know,

38:43 the reason we get progressivity all the way to the top,

38:45 we have a tax rate of

38:47 2 25%

38:48 for both personal income tax and corporate income tax.

38:52 But this is a very,

38:54 I would say

38:55 peculiar situation.

38:56 In most countries,

38:57 the personal income tax becomes regressive at the top.

39:01 So we have this evidence.

39:03 From Argentina.

39:04 I'm not lucky like uh Tatiana,

39:06 Tiago and,

39:07 and,

39:07 and coauth to have a collaboration with Argentina,

39:09 but

39:10 something that is really fascinating for Argentina is that they publish.

39:14 Tax tabulations

39:15 since 1990 or so,

39:18 very detailed tax stabulations online.

39:20 These,

39:20 these are public and this is an intermediate

39:22 step that I think many countries should be

39:24 uh doing.

39:26 So with these tax stabulations online,

39:27 what I did was to

39:29 sort people based on their

39:30 total income,

39:32 and here I show that for the richest,

39:34 so you know for the top.

39:35 0.1%,

39:37 so the richest 4 1000 people in Argentina,

39:39 the tax system becomes regressive at the top,

39:42 especially for the richest

39:43 2000 people.

39:45 What's going on?

39:46 It's that capital income share.

39:48 Increases at the top

39:50 and capital income is taxed at preferential rates lower than the other,

39:55 the,

39:55 the regular personal income tax.

39:59 So what's missing from this evidence is

40:01 um offshore income and wealth,

40:03 for example,

40:04 it's not here and consumption through the firm.

40:06 The second point is very hard to

40:08 think empirical to address.

40:11 There's a beautiful paper by Le where they do this in Portugal with some

40:14 data from I think an app or mobile phones.

40:16 I don't remember well.

40:19 The key for offshore and income wealth,

40:21 key question is how much

40:23 is out there.

40:24 I have a paper on this.

40:26 In Argentina,

40:27 at least in Argentina it seems that there is a lot.

40:29 There was a tax amnesty in 2016.

40:32 That reveal assets worth 2 21% of GDP

40:36 when they disclose this income,

40:38 this wealth.

40:39 When you disclose a stock,

40:41 you have to start paying taxes on the flow.

40:43 So that's why there was a large fiscal externality,

40:46 positive externality and the the capital income tax base more than doubled,

40:50 and this was

40:52 a permanent change,

40:53 uh,

40:53 enduring change.

40:55 So this is,

40:56 there is a key role for automatic exchange of information

40:59 and the common reporting standard.

41:01 And

41:02 again I want to emphasize countries,

41:03 and I know this because I spoke with tax administrations,

41:06 they are receiving.

41:07 Millions of records.

41:08 They don't know,

41:09 they don't know what to do with it,

41:10 how to clean it,

41:11 how to harmonize it,

41:12 and how to link it.

41:13 So again,

41:14 I think there is space here for data analytics to

41:17 um

41:18 to help.

41:20 The last

41:21 topic that I want to,

41:23 to talk about are subnational taxes.

41:26 These are widespread

41:27 with accessible data

41:29 and yet they are understudied.

41:32 There is a key question which is how local governments finance

41:35 development and at what economic and political cost.

41:39 This is a cri a critical question that received much less attention.

41:43 Um,

41:46 But you know,

41:46 data analytics again it's much needed here uh to,

41:49 to understand the anatomy of these taxes

41:52 and what is the impact of different policies that they have implemented over time.

41:56 I'm going to focus on two taxes which are the most important at the local level,

42:01 local business tax

42:03 and then property tax,

42:04 if I have time.

42:05 Otherwise I will skip it.

42:08 So local business tax um

42:11 It's like the,

42:12 I would say it's like the comfort food

42:15 of

42:16 public finances.

42:18 Uh,

42:18 because it's like,

42:19 um,

42:20 you know,

42:20 you get a lot of it,

42:21 but it's,

42:22 it's unhealthy.

42:24 So it's a fiscal crush with economic cost.

42:28 Why?

42:28 er this is due to lower political cost compared to a property tax which is typically

42:33 uh

42:34 unpopular

42:35 and

42:36 politically costly.

42:38 It's easier to collect

42:40 because there's

42:40 the revenue is typically concentrated at the very top,

42:43 and I'm going to show you a figure on this.

42:46 And then the incidence of the tax,

42:47 so who

42:48 is really affected by tax,

42:50 it's,

42:50 it's fuzzier

42:51 compared to the property tax.

42:55 The property tax,

42:57 is it a sleeping giant or is it a tax that is doomed to fail?

43:00 There is increasing consensus that the tax is underutilized,

43:04 but it's getting a lot of um academic attention

43:06 and there are many studies uh on this tax,

43:09 and I think it's great to,

43:10 to have this.

43:12 So why

43:13 should we

43:15 care about subnational taxation because

43:17 there are also interesting macro dynamics

43:19 um

43:20 in different countries.

43:22 It's hard to get surprisingly.

43:25 Uh,

43:25 good data,

43:26 macro data on

43:28 um

43:29 Collection levels for different countries,

43:32 um,

43:33 to me this is surprising because

43:36 it's surprising also that there are not more academics

43:38 working on this because if you think about it.

43:42 In Argentina and Mexico there are over 2000 municipalities.

43:45 In Brazil,

43:46 5000 municipalities,

43:47 in Nigeria,

43:48 800.

43:50 In the Philippines,

43:51 1 1500 municipalities.

43:53 So this,

43:54 the opportunity for

43:56 PhD students and for academics and so on to

43:59 shed light on this tax is endless,

44:01 you know,

44:01 it's a matter of reaching out and see who's interested in collaborating.

44:05 Um,

44:06 going back to the,

44:07 to the macrodynamics,

44:08 this figure is very concerning.

44:09 So we have here the composition of the tax revenue for the 24 provinces of Argentina.

44:15 We have the turnover tax,

44:16 property tax and other taxes.

44:19 Turnover tax

44:20 is a tax,

44:21 it's like the it's VAT but worse.

44:23 It's like a tax on gross sales,

44:25 so you can deduct

44:27 anything.

44:28 So it's

44:29 perhaps one of the

44:30 worst taxes that exist in theory.

44:33 Um,

44:34 it has advantages and disadvantages,

44:36 but in principle for efficiency it's,

44:38 it's,

44:38 it's very bad,

44:39 and we see that you know,

44:40 over time,

44:41 at the beginning in 1980,

44:42 roughly 50%

44:45 the,

44:45 it was 50% turnover tax and property tax.

44:49 Today they

44:50 essentially depend on,

44:51 on turnover taxes.

44:52 84% of subnational revenue,

44:54 own revenue is coming from this.

44:57 A similar pattern

44:58 emerges in municipalities,

45:00 so the,

45:00 the lowest level that we have in Argentina,

45:03 we see that they also impose their own.

45:06 Turnover tax at

45:08 low rates,

45:08 but still,

45:09 you know,

45:09 it's,

45:10 they are becoming,

45:11 they are depending more and more

45:13 on a tax that

45:14 in principle in an upper middle in an upper middle income country,

45:18 I,

45:19 I think this is a little bit concerning,

45:20 but again we need to balance,

45:22 we need better diagnostic,

45:23 we need to understand

45:24 what is the value of raising this extra revenue

45:27 versus not taxing at all or using a different instrument.

45:31 So that's why I put in the title Good Politics,

45:33 uh,

45:33 Bad Policy as a question mark.

45:36 So what I want to highlight here is some er ongoing

45:39 work that I have with uh Santiago Garria and Isidio Guarducci

45:44 where we are using.

45:46 Micro

45:47 tax data from uh all the provinces of Argentina.

45:51 And

45:52 I want to highlight 5 styled facts.

45:55 So again,

45:55 turnover tax is a tax applies very low rates

45:58 to to gross sales.

46:00 It's very easy to collect and administer.

46:02 Uh,

46:02 it provides a stable source of revenue,

46:05 but the main issue is that

46:07 it creates like a cascading where you tax the same transaction several times,

46:12 so this compounds into the price.

46:14 Um,

46:15 so it's,

46:15 it's,

46:16 you know,

46:16 in theory really bad.

46:17 So let me show you 5 stylized facts and what,

46:20 uh,

46:20 where are we going,

46:21 where are we heading with this.

46:23 The first one is that when you split

46:25 the,

46:26 the sample of firms into different bins,

46:28 so here the bottom 90%.

46:31 Based on their total sales,

46:33 the next 9%,

46:35 the next

46:35 0.9% and the

46:39 The largest group of firms,

46:40 the top 0.1%,

46:42 so these are essentially

46:44 almost 400 firms.

46:45 So you can see that

46:46 all the activity

46:48 at least in Argentina is concentrated here,

46:50 so like 57%

46:52 is explained by this group.

46:55 The second fact that I want to show is that these firms have multiple activities.

46:59 So we have data at the firm level,

47:02 firm month activity level.

47:04 So you can see that

47:05 in red,

47:06 we have the top 1%,

47:07 the last triangle is the top 1%.

47:10 The number of activities that they have is,

47:12 you know,

47:12 like 9.

47:13 So they have

47:14 some services,

47:15 transportation,

47:16 and then they sell something and so on.

47:20 The 3rdtu fact is that they operate in multiple jurisdictions,

47:23 so we know where these firms are selling their goods.

47:27 Right?

47:27 And we see that

47:29 this increases with firm size,

47:30 so we have percentiles of annual sales.

47:33 We see that

47:34 the top,

47:35 the,

47:35 the largest 400 firms.

47:38 Um,

47:38 they have,

47:39 they operate in about on average 20 jurisdictions.

47:43 There are 24 in Argentina,

47:45 so they sell almost to

47:47 to the entire country.

47:50 The fourth fact is that there are multiple rates

47:53 um that increase with firm size,

47:55 so they are relative,

47:56 so there are multiple rates.

47:58 So here we see for different sectors,

47:59 primary sector,

48:00 manufacturing,

48:01 retail,

48:01 financial,

48:03 and,

48:03 and services.

48:04 At the very top

48:05 were,

48:06 were.

48:07 That explains most of the macroeconomy,

48:09 we saw that they increase because there are some progressive rates

48:12 that they have introduced over time.

48:13 So that explains why the,

48:15 the revenue has increased

48:17 er

48:18 for this particular tool.

48:20 And the last

48:22 fact that I want to show is that dispersion,

48:24 tax rate dispersion.

48:26 Also increase it with firm size.

48:29 And this is concerning.

48:31 Because

48:32 the dispersion of tax rate is one of the sources of misallocation in an economy,

48:36 right?

48:37 So here what we are

48:39 doing in this work is we are applying the framework of CALO

48:43 to measure what is

48:45 the

48:45 size of these misallocations

48:47 and what would happen

48:49 in a particular country,

48:50 in this case Argentina,

48:51 if they if they um

48:54 eventually remove this,

48:55 this expression.

48:56 So if they

48:56 apply uniform rates

48:58 somehow

48:59 and again this is,

49:00 this is a framework that could be used

49:02 um in other settings with similar

49:05 tax databases

49:06 and,

49:06 and so on.

49:11 5 minutes.

49:14 Last topic that I want to mention is property tax.

49:17 Property tax

49:19 As I mentioned before,

49:20 it's underutilized.

49:22 It can help raise revenue equitably.

49:24 Why?

49:24 Because real estate is a major repository of wealth,

49:27 uh,

49:27 in,

49:28 in many societies.

49:31 Historically,

49:33 Municipalities have applied

49:35 flat.

49:37 Proportional tax schedules,

49:38 even like fees,

49:40 like a fixed fee,

49:41 an amount of

49:42 money.

49:43 The tax base also varies a lot across

49:45 municipalities.

49:47 So it's a tax that I think it's archaic in design

49:50 and

49:51 governments haven't really

49:52 thought about

49:53 improving their design because it's like they inherited

49:56 this and then it's very hard to change.

49:58 And what I,

49:59 what I think is surprising is that it constant,

50:01 constant

50:03 contrast sharply with

50:05 modern

50:06 tax tools such as personal income tax or

50:08 wealth taxes that are progressive in nature.

50:11 So that to me is uh uh surprising.

50:14 So what do we do in a recent paper we study a progressive reform

50:17 in uh Trese Febrero.

50:20 Uh,

50:20 it's a large urban,

50:22 urban municipality in,

50:23 in Buenos Aires,

50:24 Argentina.

50:25 It's characterized by law enforcement

50:29 and low compliance.

50:31 So here we have a few

50:32 of the

50:34 share of taxpayers.

50:35 We have the,

50:36 the,

50:36 so it's it's a tax that they pay monthly.

50:39 So that's why on the horizontal axis we have the 12 monthly installments.

50:43 And you can see that

50:44 roughly like 50% of the people pay the tax,

50:47 and it's very polarized.

50:48 So they either pay the 12 installments or they don't pay it.

50:52 And this is,

50:53 I think it's a style fact that would be common in,

50:55 in many settings.

50:57 So what do we do in this paper,

50:59 we study a progressive reform.

51:01 This is a reform that

51:02 for political reasons and for equity concerns,

51:05 the government decided to provide a,

51:08 um,

51:08 so the,

51:09 the schedules which is the blue one,

51:11 was historically regressive at the beginning and

51:14 then becoming progressive at the top.

51:16 They decided to give a

51:17 tax cut

51:19 for low-value properties.

51:20 We are going to call these low-value properties poor.

51:23 And it was based on a threshold

51:25 based on the evaluation of the property,

51:27 so

51:27 properties valued at 750,000

51:30 pesos,

51:31 less than that,

51:32 they experienced a VAT cut which is a red line.

51:35 Those in the middle,

51:36 no changes,

51:37 and then at the top there was a

51:39 VAT,

51:40 um,

51:40 a property tax increase.

51:44 So with this,

51:45 what do we do?

51:46 We analyze the effect of making the tax progressive

51:49 on compliance

51:51 and revenue,

51:52 and what we do is we focus on the thresholds,

51:54 the threshold

51:56 where there was,

51:57 there is a

51:58 tax cut for the poor and the threshold where there is a tax increase for the rich.

52:02 We analyze the direct effects on compliance

52:05 and then we also have an information an information experiment where we

52:09 tell the people what's going on with the other people,

52:12 and that will become clearer now.

52:15 So what is the causal effect of making a tax progressive?

52:18 What we find is for,

52:19 for poor,

52:20 so here is a chart where we put the

52:23 property value on the horizontal axis and the

52:25 change in tax compliance on the vertical axis.

52:28 We see that

52:30 those to the left of the threshold,

52:31 we call it poor,

52:32 those to the right are the middle.

52:34 We see that tax compliance is increasing.

52:37 For those who received a tax cut.

52:41 For the rich,

52:41 we see the opposite,

52:42 different threshold,

52:44 those to the right are the rich,

52:45 we see the tax compliance decreases.

52:48 We have some elasticities in the paper,

52:50 but

52:51 I want to spend time on that.

52:53 And then for the cross rate effects,

52:55 what do I mean by cross rate effects?

52:58 We have an experiment where we

53:00 tell

53:01 randomly

53:02 some groups in the,

53:05 some poor people we tell

53:07 that the rich are not paying more taxes.

53:09 And then for rich people,

53:11 we tell,

53:12 for some of them randomly we tell

53:14 them that

53:15 the poor are paying less taxes.

53:17 When we do that,

53:18 we follow,

53:19 um,

53:20 we measure the,

53:21 the changing,

53:22 so for the poor,

53:23 what we do is we measure the effect

53:25 of receiving a letter

53:27 on tax compliance.

53:29 What we compare is a letter,

53:31 so it's

53:32 within the poor group,

53:33 some are receiving a letter just saying your taxes are lower,

53:36 and the other group is your taxes are lower and the rich are paying more.

53:40 When we do that.

53:42 Those that also learned that the tax became more progressive,

53:46 there is like an extra effect on tax compliance over

53:49 and above the direct effect that I showed before.

53:53 And then for the middle and the and the rich,

53:56 it's,

53:56 it's,

53:56 it's less clear but we see that there is a little bit of uh a decrease for,

54:00 for the rich.

54:00 So when,

54:01 when the rich learn that the tax became more

54:04 And that the tax

54:05 decrease for the poor,

54:06 there is an extra negative effect on tax compliance,

54:09 uh,

54:09 for that group.

54:11 So with this um

54:13 I'm gonna stop.

54:14 So this uh food,

54:15 I think I,

54:16 I believe I provided food for thought um based on the several illustrations that I

54:21 provided today.

54:23 I wanna argue or what I argue in the

54:25 talk is that domestic resource mobilization is at the policy

54:29 data crossroads

54:30 and the data analytics can help pave the way for better tax policy and

54:36 administrations.

54:37 Um,

54:38 modest aside,

54:38 I believe we are very good at this here at the bank and,

54:41 and please reach out to us at the and Data,

54:45 um.

54:46 To,

54:47 to,

54:47 to discuss this more.

54:49 And the last thing that I want to mention is that

54:51 what I mentioned in this talk is just really scratching the surface.

54:54 It's the tip of the iceberg.

54:56 There is a flagship report we are producing on

54:59 domestic resource mobilization with Pierre Mavis,

55:02 Oyebola and many collaborators and,

55:05 uh,

55:05 Tiago and so on,

55:06 and I,

55:07 I,

55:08 uh,

55:08 want you to stay tuned because this is gonna come out soon.

55:11 So thank you so much and looking forward to the discussion.

55:26 Yeah it's

55:43 Great.

55:44 So thanks,

55:45 thanks very much for inviting me.

55:47 Um,

55:48 this is,

55:48 uh,

55:49 really a,

55:49 a pleasure.

55:50 I think that we're all super happy to have this kind of evidence,

55:54 uh,

55:54 provided,

55:55 um,

55:55 as we're all interested in.

55:58 How,

55:58 um,

55:59 how,

56:00 how to leverage some of these powerful digital tools and data

56:04 to help governments not only administer taxes better

56:08 and more effectively but also to see to what extent that,

56:12 uh,

56:12 that new data and and analytics can

56:15 improve the,

56:16 the,

56:17 uh,

56:17 range of implementable

56:19 policies in a way that

56:21 both efficiency and equity are improved.

56:24 Um,

56:24 so,

56:24 uh,

56:24 what I'm going to argue is that res despite this,

56:27 uh,

56:27 recent growth in,

56:29 in evidence,

56:30 we,

56:30 we are very far away from

56:32 what we really need.

56:33 Um,

56:34 there's a huge agenda,

56:35 I think,

56:36 on the,

56:36 on the horizon on this,

56:38 and I,

56:38 I,

56:38 I think I would,

56:39 um,

56:40 Uh,

56:41 argue that a lot of the questions that policymakers really wanna know

56:46 have to do with how economic agencies agents will respond to policy changes.

56:52 So

56:53 how will consumers respond?

56:56 How will suppliers respond when it's,

56:58 uh,

56:58 about VAT,

57:00 um,

57:01 and,

57:01 and to some extent that behavioral response partly depends on how much they know.

57:06 But it also partly depends on the capacity of uh government

57:10 government

57:11 to inform

57:12 and also

57:13 to what extent the government is able to,

57:16 you know,

57:16 administer in a way

57:18 that um takes advantage of all the data analy analytics that that exist

57:23 so there's a I think a lot of questions around

57:26 those behavioral responses on both the supplier and,

57:29 and,

57:29 uh,

57:30 if it's if it's a personal income tax,

57:32 it'll be also on.

57:33 Uh,

57:34 or corporate income tax on,

57:35 on,

57:35 on the economic agents sort of feeling this pain.

57:39 So,

57:39 um,

57:40 the work that.

57:42 Uh,

57:42 Dario just showed us,

57:44 uh,

57:44 um,

57:44 with a kind of an example on,

57:47 uh,

57:47 Argentina for VAT is really interesting.

57:50 Um,

57:51 it's similar to,

57:52 to what

57:53 I mean,

57:53 other,

57:54 other places have found,

57:55 but more importantly,

57:57 what is interesting is the,

57:59 the unintended consequences,

58:00 right?

58:01 So in the case of,

58:01 uh,

58:02 Argentina and Mexico there was very little

58:05 reduction in prices,

58:06 no reduction in prices in the case of Peru.

58:09 So a lot of,

58:09 a lot of the

58:10 reduction in VAT was pocketed by the suppliers.

58:14 Um,

58:14 there

58:15 is some evidence that in fact,

58:17 uh,

58:17 inequality increased as opposed to

58:20 you know,

58:21 declining,

58:21 which was part of the intent of the policy,

58:24 um,

58:25 and this again has to do with the behavior of,

58:27 of firms profiteering,

58:30 uh,

58:30 particularly where low,

58:31 low income households shop.

58:33 Um,

58:34 there's no discernible income on sales or employment in the case of Peru,

58:38 and there's some evidence of reducing compliance in the case of,

58:42 um.

58:43 Uh,

58:44 uh,

58:44 again,

58:44 of Peru,

58:45 um,

58:46 so my question with this and,

58:47 and particularly in the context of very tight

58:50 budgets in most of our developing countries is

58:53 could we expect the opposite if increases in VAT were on the table,

58:59 um,

58:59 and I don't think,

59:00 I don't think that that's necessarily the case

59:02 and so this kind of asymmetry of VAT going up or down is,

59:05 is really a testable

59:08 question.

59:08 Um,

59:09 there's,

59:09 uh,

59:09 some

59:10 really,

59:10 uh,

59:11 nice evidence from Mexico from the 2014 reform which had

59:15 an increase in VAT,

59:17 uh,

59:18 where,

59:18 uh,

59:19 Pierre Bachas found,

59:20 um,

59:21 that,

59:21 uh,

59:22 the pass through is,

59:23 uh,

59:24 in formal firms is actually

59:26 about 77%.

59:28 Uh,

59:28 obviously no pass through in more informal settings,

59:33 um,

59:33 but this is sort of one country,

59:36 one data point,

59:37 not clear if

59:38 this is the case for lower and low,

59:41 low middle income countries.

59:43 It's also unclear that,

59:44 um,

59:46 what,

59:46 what it means for revenue and equity and efficiency,

59:50 particularly when,

59:51 um,

59:52 taking into account the.

59:54 The fact that firms

59:56 or or consumers can switch very easily from shopping in a,

1:00:00 in a modern modern formal store to an informal store,

1:00:03 that elasticity of moving

1:00:06 your choice of where you shop

1:00:08 is especially important in

1:00:10 very low income settings where

1:00:12 informality is the norm.

1:00:13 Um,

1:00:14 it's not,

1:00:15 not uncommon to see high income people

1:00:18 buying food in,

1:00:20 let's say,

1:00:20 um,

1:00:21 street markets and,

1:00:22 and things in places like that,

1:00:24 um,

1:00:24 in developing countries,

1:00:26 so that elasticity

1:00:27 is,

1:00:28 is important to figure out.

1:00:29 Second,

1:00:30 to what extent

1:00:32 would,

1:00:32 uh,

1:00:33 VATCIT integration help?

1:00:36 Some tax administration offices are now able to

1:00:40 link.

1:00:41 Up

1:00:41 sort of VAT receipts with their corporate income tax receipts

1:00:45 and they may have an incentive to become more formal.

1:00:48 So the question is how much

1:00:50 of the reduction in compliance in sort of traditional stores

1:00:54 that are formal but potentially have a large informal,

1:00:57 um,

1:00:58 sort of

1:00:59 impetus.

1:01:00 Uh,

1:01:00 I always think about in my own country

1:01:02 in Bolivia you can.

1:01:04 You,

1:01:05 you go to a formal store,

1:01:06 you'll get asked,

1:01:07 do you wanna pay,

1:01:07 do you want a receipt or no?

1:01:09 And that determines the price,

1:01:10 right?

1:01:11 You,

1:01:11 you,

1:01:11 you,

1:01:11 and you can negotiate

1:01:13 how much of the

1:01:15 VAT savings

1:01:17 goes to the,

1:01:18 to the supplier and,

1:01:19 and how much goes to the consumer who,

1:01:21 who stop,

1:01:22 who doesn't pay,

1:01:23 pay it.

1:01:23 So that kind of negotiation is also interesting.

1:01:26 Um.

1:01:30 Um,

1:01:30 and then another question is how,

1:01:32 what would,

1:01:33 what can we expect from eliminating VAT exemptions?

1:01:36 So most countries are not necessarily considering increasing VAT,

1:01:40 but rather getting rid of

1:01:41 exemptions.

1:01:42 This,

1:01:43 uh,

1:01:43 figure comes from,

1:01:44 from some work done across multiple countries around

1:01:48 the world using our fiscal microsimulation modeling.

1:01:51 Um,

1:01:52 which essentially shows that VAT exemptions are largely

1:01:55 going to the top of the distribution,

1:01:57 mostly because,

1:01:58 of course,

1:01:58 the rich consume more.

1:02:00 So it's not

1:02:01 surprising

1:02:02 that those benefits go to the top more than the bottom.

1:02:05 But in addition to,

1:02:07 to that simple fact,

1:02:08 you also have,

1:02:09 there is also some evidence that larger firms are much more likely to claim,

1:02:14 claim VAT exemptions or reduced rates.

1:02:16 Um,

1:02:17 then,

1:02:18 then,

1:02:18 uh,

1:02:19 say smaller or more

1:02:21 informal firms,

1:02:22 more not informal,

1:02:23 but you know,

1:02:24 smaller,

1:02:24 smaller stores

1:02:25 where,

1:02:26 which is where a lot of the,

1:02:27 uh,

1:02:28 poorer population potentially is,

1:02:30 uh,

1:02:30 consuming.

1:02:31 So there's good reason to believe that eliminating

1:02:34 these uh VATT exemptions will improve efficiency.

1:02:37 It'll raise revenue,

1:02:38 etc.

1:02:39 It's very politically difficult to do as,

1:02:41 uh,

1:02:41 Dario was mentioning

1:02:42 it,

1:02:43 but,

1:02:43 um,

1:02:44 but.

1:02:45 The,

1:02:45 the,

1:02:46 you know,

1:02:47 one could do some simulations.

1:02:48 We did some simulations showing that,

1:02:50 oh,

1:02:50 if you

1:02:51 eliminate these exemptions and then you give households,

1:02:55 um,

1:02:56 you know,

1:02:56 safety nets or

1:02:58 some other form of mitigating mechanism,

1:03:01 you'd,

1:03:01 you'd be better off.

1:03:02 You'd reduce

1:03:03 inequality,

1:03:04 you'd reduce poverty,

1:03:05 etc.

1:03:06 We,

1:03:06 We often do these things to justify

1:03:09 some of the the the policies,

1:03:10 but actually impacts are are uncertain because we don't know

1:03:15 how

1:03:15 these kinds of reforms will affect compliance.

1:03:18 They're hard to to estimate,

1:03:21 um,

1:03:22 will suppliers become more,

1:03:24 you know,

1:03:25 be willing to do,

1:03:26 uh,

1:03:27 uh.

1:03:28 Capture some of that additional or uh revenue to what extent will,

1:03:33 uh,

1:03:33 consumers decide if you eliminate exemptions,

1:03:36 will they decide to go to the informal markets instead?

1:03:39 How much can you really expect in terms of revenue collections?

1:03:42 How much can you really expect

1:03:44 from,

1:03:45 um,

1:03:45 those changes?

1:03:47 And then it's unclear how,

1:03:48 how the enforcement

1:03:50 will actually affect equity and efficiency,

1:03:53 because the enforcement on its own,

1:03:55 even if you didn't no change in tax policy,

1:03:57 also has a distributional impact.

1:04:00 And

1:04:00 that again is unclear.

1:04:02 We don't know,

1:04:02 so many questions there.

1:04:04 Um,

1:04:04 PIT,

1:04:05 um,

1:04:06 Dario showed a very nice example from Honduras.

1:04:11 Um,

1:04:11 I think there are several examples around in the literature

1:04:14 that really focus on the fact that,

1:04:16 uh,

1:04:17 high income earners can play around.

1:04:20 And,

1:04:20 uh,

1:04:21 with their either with their undistributed profits

1:04:23 or the capital income and wealth,

1:04:25 uh,

1:04:25 so that they can uh

1:04:27 sort of declare it in whatever is most

1:04:30 convenient to them.

1:04:31 So tax a lots of tax avoidance happening at the top.

1:04:35 And,

1:04:36 um,

1:04:36 I guess a big question for all of us is to what extent,

1:04:39 um,

1:04:40 do international information sharing and coordination.

1:04:43 Policies help particularly in low income countries that have limited capacities,

1:04:48 um,

1:04:48 so,

1:04:49 and how,

1:04:49 how,

1:04:50 what is the best way?

1:04:51 What is the lowest hanging fruit

1:04:53 when you're dealing with a low capacity

1:04:55 country to actually make use of some of these,

1:04:58 um,

1:05:00 you know,

1:05:00 innovations in international coordination.

1:05:04 And then finally,

1:05:05 um,

1:05:05 with respect to the work that he presented on,

1:05:08 on turnover taxes,

1:05:10 even though he was presenting mostly for subnational,

1:05:13 I would argue that in a lot of countries,

1:05:15 2/3 of countries in Africa have some form of simplified tax regimes for SMEs.

1:05:20 These are turnover taxes

1:05:22 for small medium enterprises.

1:05:25 Um,

1:05:25 and here there are a lot of questions

1:05:28 that would,

1:05:29 you know,

1:05:30 that have to do more

1:05:31 with how these,

1:05:32 um.

1:05:34 These turnover taxes are actually implemented and the and the potential

1:05:38 efficiency and equity

1:05:40 uh considerations that come out of it.

1:05:42 So for instance,

1:05:43 a lot of,

1:05:44 um,

1:05:44 these,

1:05:45 uh,

1:05:45 uh,

1:05:46 turnover taxes don't have a tax-free threshold.

1:05:48 So you have

1:05:49 even very subsistence level firms

1:05:53 being liable for these turnover taxes,

1:05:56 um,

1:05:56 even though they're,

1:05:57 you know.

1:05:58 They really should be exempt,

1:06:00 um,

1:06:01 and in countries where they do have a little bit of progressivity,

1:06:04 um,

1:06:05 at the end of the day,

1:06:06 the,

1:06:07 the,

1:06:07 the,

1:06:08 the effective rates are not progressive partly because

1:06:11 the lowest income people don't necessarily have the information about

1:06:14 what's what the tax policy really is and how to,

1:06:18 uh,

1:06:19 how to,

1:06:19 you know,

1:06:20 benefit from,

1:06:21 from,

1:06:21 from that.

1:06:23 The sort of some that progressivity

1:06:25 and then finally,

1:06:26 uh,

1:06:26 on the,

1:06:27 on the property taxes,

1:06:28 I think

1:06:29 it's really interesting that you're showing the

1:06:31 differences in compliance between poor and non-poor

1:06:35 and I think more generally there's a lot of room here to do

1:06:38 kind of a combination of information.

1:06:40 Between what's available from administrative sources,

1:06:43 but also,

1:06:44 uh,

1:06:44 surveys on,

1:06:46 on how people are

1:06:47 perceiving,

1:06:48 um,

1:06:49 changes in policy

1:06:50 and therefore how their,

1:06:52 uh,

1:06:52 willingness to pay taxes changes over time.

1:06:56 With that,

1:06:56 let me end.

1:06:57 Thank you.

1:07:04 Thanks,

1:07:04 Gabriela,

1:07:05 and thanks,

1:07:05 Dario for the

1:07:07 presentation.

1:07:07 Um,

1:07:09 Um,

1:07:10 let's open it up for Q&A again.

1:07:12 If you have a question online,

1:07:13 please raise your hand,

1:07:14 and I can call on you.

1:07:16 Um,

1:07:17 if you're in the room,

1:07:18 please,

1:07:18 uh,

1:07:18 could you go to the mic?

1:07:20 Um,

1:07:21 just you wanna line up behind the microphone.

1:07:24 Hi,

1:07:24 uh,

1:07:25 very nice presentation,

1:07:26 Dario.

1:07:26 I have a question for you.

1:07:28 So if I understood correctly,

1:07:29 there's a lot of evidence within Argentina and across

1:07:32 countries that this pass through of the VAT can be

1:07:37 almost full,

1:07:37 can be 50%.

1:07:39 So do we know what drives these differences and connected to what uh the discussion,

1:07:45 uh,

1:07:46 uh,

1:07:46 it was being discussed,

1:07:47 the role of information,

1:07:48 no?

1:07:48 So is it like in.

1:07:51 Big retailers is easier to,

1:07:52 you know,

1:07:53 like accompany these policies with information campaigns of OK,

1:07:56 we're removing this tax so you should expect this

1:07:59 uh pass through or this cut in this percent

1:08:02 or informational campaigns of

1:08:05 incentivizing shopping around,

1:08:06 you know,

1:08:07 you should be expecting this to,

1:08:08 you know,

1:08:08 cost this much so look out for,

1:08:10 you know,

1:08:11 so what do we know about uh

1:08:14 how to,

1:08:14 you know,

1:08:15 implement these,

1:08:15 uh,

1:08:16 policies along with other campaigns?

1:08:19 So let's take a couple,

1:08:21 um.

1:08:23 Hey Dario,

1:08:24 uh,

1:08:24 indeed great presentation.

1:08:26 I definitely learned a lot,

1:08:27 um,

1:08:28 I was wondering,

1:08:29 uh,

1:08:29 in terms of like taxes.

1:08:30 I mean there's also some taxes that try to.

1:08:34 Overcome some inherent market failures that are there thinking of,

1:08:38 you know,

1:08:39 VAT taxes on

1:08:41 uh products with high sugar content or carbon taxation or congestion taxes

1:08:46 so

1:08:46 given

1:08:47 yeah

1:08:48 that they try to,

1:08:49 um,

1:08:49 you know,

1:08:50 overcome some market failures,

1:08:51 is there some work or should we try to focus more on taxes that are

1:08:55 less distorting by itself and maybe go more towards

1:08:59 an efficient market equilibrium?

1:09:00 Thanks.

1:09:03 And then

1:09:06 Um,

1:09:08 well,

1:09:08 again,

1:09:08 thank you again for,

1:09:09 for a very interesting,

1:09:10 it's a,

1:09:10 it's really a nice summary of all this work

1:09:13 that that that you and the colleagues have done.

1:09:15 I just have a comment regarding the subnational exactly property taxes,

1:09:20 and you mentioned how

1:09:22 you're surprised why not as many because data is there

1:09:25 fortunately I have to disagree there is really not there.

1:09:28 I mean not enough of it,

1:09:30 uh,

1:09:30 in,

1:09:31 in most countries unfortunately.

1:09:33 It's very difficult to get um micro level data on property taxation

1:09:38 uh because um.

1:09:41 There is no

1:09:43 consolidated database where you can get it or

1:09:46 then you have to travel around the country,

1:09:48 you know,

1:09:49 search by municipality,

1:09:51 uh.

1:09:52 Unless you focus on one,

1:09:53 but the,

1:09:53 the reason why is it's important to actually have a country level

1:09:57 kind of scope of data for,

1:09:59 for property tax is that

1:10:01 it's not really only,

1:10:03 I mean,

1:10:03 the,

1:10:03 um,

1:10:04 we claim that it's actually equitable tax but like all these over the last decades

1:10:09 studies have shown that it's,

1:10:10 it's regressive.

1:10:12 And there are different reasons why that is.

1:10:14 One of them is that,

1:10:15 um,

1:10:15 theoretically it's an,

1:10:16 it's a progressive tax,

1:10:17 of course it depends on how you see it.

1:10:19 Is it an excise?

1:10:20 Is it,

1:10:20 uh,

1:10:21 it's a tax on income,

1:10:22 but also,

1:10:23 um,

1:10:24 depending on the structure

1:10:26 you may end up with actually a regressive tax,

1:10:28 um,

1:10:28 and you show the example of Argentina where they had a tax break on the lower value

1:10:35 properties

1:10:35 and I would be very curious to see if you could

1:10:37 do the similar study in about 5 to maybe 10 years.

1:10:41 And see what happens because what theory suggests is that

1:10:46 such a policy is gonna

1:10:48 allocate

1:10:50 income toward the lower income housing

1:10:52 where you're gonna have now

1:10:53 higher income individuals owning lower income housing

1:10:57 where it's gonna increase their value and lower income individuals are

1:11:00 not gonna be able anymore to afford actually low income housing.

1:11:04 So,

1:11:04 um,

1:11:04 uh,

1:11:05 this is the,

1:11:06 the,

1:11:06 the limitation in,

1:11:07 I mean,

1:11:08 besides of all the issues that the policy design actually

1:11:11 can change so for property tax is really important.

1:11:13 What is only progressivity also progressivity in the medium and long term.

1:11:17 And another thing is for property taxes if no other taxes and,

1:11:21 uh,

1:11:21 implementation is here crucial because in addition to just

1:11:25 tax design you're gonna have

1:11:27 what is gonna impact progressivity is also simply.

1:11:31 Administration like you're gonna have tax assessment in

1:11:34 some countries but I'm sorry pro property value assessment

1:11:37 it's gonna be more favorable for high income house.

1:11:39 In fact,

1:11:40 uh,

1:11:40 there's some a study I from Italy I can

1:11:43 share with you that shows that high income actually

1:11:45 properties are under

1:11:47 assessed

1:11:48 relative to lower income.

1:11:50 So all these different,

1:11:51 I mean certainly it's a very,

1:11:53 um,

1:11:53 it's very useful but

1:11:55 just ideas if you have a chance to do it would be great to have such evidence.

1:11:59 Thank you.

1:12:00 OK,

1:12:00 let's take one more question and then I'll

1:12:02 get back to you.

1:12:03 Thanks.

1:12:05 Great presentation Dario.

1:12:06 Um,

1:12:07 I was wondering about how to think about the

1:12:10 political economy which came out throughout your presentation.

1:12:13 It seemed like there was some lack of clarity,

1:12:16 I mean,

1:12:16 uh,

1:12:17 not in your presentation,

1:12:18 but

1:12:19 in the political economy literature there's no clear explanation for

1:12:24 what,

1:12:24 how to think about even sort of

1:12:27 tax revolts or recent movements we've seen in Africa and

1:12:30 for example,

1:12:31 in Kenya when a

1:12:33 tax reform was announced,

1:12:34 people were on the streets were they on the streets because it's populist,

1:12:38 they don't understand.

1:12:39 Uh,

1:12:40 that taxes are important,

1:12:42 or is it that something else is it lack of

1:12:44 trust that the government will use the taxes well?

1:12:47 So with that sort of general background,

1:12:49 I wanted to ask you two specific questions one.

1:12:52 Uh,

1:12:53 what is the role of the,

1:12:55 the data revolution

1:12:57 in addressing some of these political economy constraints?

1:13:00 So for example,

1:13:01 when you present the evidence on

1:13:04 the lack of pass through of a

1:13:07 reduction in the VAT,

1:13:09 does that change?

1:13:10 Is it surprising to the tax administrators?

1:13:13 And does it lead them to think about changing the policy

1:13:17 or communicating

1:13:18 to if the demand came was a populist demand from

1:13:22 poor lower income people,

1:13:24 does that help them communicate that look we tried using this

1:13:27 and now we understand from all this nice big data,

1:13:31 uh,

1:13:31 that it didn't work as intended

1:13:34 and second on the other side of the politics of elite capture,

1:13:38 maybe this is really a naive idealistic question,

1:13:41 but.

1:13:42 Is there any talk about moving towards something that's more like a lump sum tax?

1:13:47 I mean,

1:13:48 some of the top brackets you're presenting data on

1:13:51 are as few as 500 firms,

1:13:54 or,

1:13:54 you know,

1:13:55 80,000 people.

1:13:56 Um,

1:13:57 and some of the really high

1:13:59 brackets are the ones who are offshoring presumably we kind of know

1:14:04 who are these big entities.

1:14:06 Uh,

1:14:06 has there been any discussion of,

1:14:08 you know,

1:14:09 just more lump sum taxation per head,

1:14:12 uh,

1:14:13 and what are the,

1:14:14 what is the political economy of elite capture on the top?

1:14:17 Like,

1:14:18 presumably there's a lot of

1:14:20 resistance to that kind of a movement,

1:14:23 anything written on that.

1:14:24 Thanks so much.

1:14:26 Thanks.

1:14:26 A lot of wide ranging questions.

1:14:29 Go ahead,

1:14:29 Darryl.

1:14:33 I'm gonna start.

1:14:35 Hi,

1:14:35 yeah,

1:14:36 I will start from the,

1:14:37 the end

1:14:38 all the way.

1:14:39 I think it's easier.

1:14:41 I,

1:14:42 yeah,

1:14:42 I think Mavi is sitting behind you would be

1:14:46 better equipped to,

1:14:47 to,

1:14:48 but I think those are very,

1:14:49 very good points,

1:14:50 um,

1:14:51 I think you know what I know is a lump sum tax

1:14:53 like a poll tax that Margaret Thatcher implemented in the UK.

1:14:58 It was

1:14:59 complicated,

1:15:00 so I think I lump some I wouldn't see a space for such a policy,

1:15:05 um.

1:15:07 On the

1:15:08 VAT cards communication,

1:15:10 I think it's key.

1:15:11 I think there is a disconnect.

1:15:13 Uh,

1:15:14 between research and and

1:15:16 policy action,

1:15:18 and there should be more communication in the sense like policymakers

1:15:21 should try to communicate better like the fears that er.

1:15:24 Gabriela was showing with the,

1:15:26 the,

1:15:26 the incidence of eliminating tax expenditure,

1:15:29 that's key

1:15:30 to communicate the policy reform.

1:15:32 I don't really know how to do it.

1:15:34 Argentina has done it successfully in some cases like the,

1:15:37 the tax amnesty,

1:15:38 they were,

1:15:39 they were great communicating that like to,

1:15:41 you know,

1:15:42 entice participation.

1:15:43 I feel like that that was one of the,

1:15:46 one of a good example of what countries could do.

1:15:49 That's something I,

1:15:51 I discussed in the paper like this

1:15:52 part of the political economy,

1:15:54 but

1:15:54 I'm not an expert on that topic.

1:15:56 I think it's very relevant,

1:15:57 but

1:15:59 I wouldn't do enough justice

1:16:01 to that.

1:16:02 Um,

1:16:02 Violetta,

1:16:04 thank you for your comment.

1:16:05 That's great.

1:16:07 I think I,

1:16:07 I disagree on the part that

1:16:10 There is a lot of data,

1:16:12 and it requires a lot of entrepreneur,

1:16:14 entrepreneurship,

1:16:15 right?

1:16:15 And let me give you an example of um Juan Luis Caboni who works with us.

1:16:19 He used to work at a in a municipality in Argentina,

1:16:23 that didn't,

1:16:24 they didn't have any data analytics.

1:16:26 There was,

1:16:28 you know,

1:16:28 a computer,

1:16:30 data was sitting there,

1:16:31 so he took the computer

1:16:33 that they needed capacity.

1:16:34 He arranged all the files,

1:16:36 monthly files together,

1:16:37 and they build the data and now they are using it.

1:16:39 So I feel like every municipality has this type of data it's just a matter of

1:16:43 going knocking the door,

1:16:45 trying to be proactive and try to

1:16:47 make progress.

1:16:48 That's that's what I would like to do and

1:16:51 I agree with you that you know these sometimes are regressive,

1:16:54 we don't really know,

1:16:55 we need,

1:16:55 you know,

1:16:56 we have data from 5 municipalities from Brazil,

1:16:58 Colombia,

1:16:59 Argentina.

1:17:00 We put them together,

1:17:01 we can get like an overview of what's going on in Latin America,

1:17:04 and I think that's feasible.

1:17:08 On the market failures and I think it's it's a very good point.

1:17:12 I think the talk was more focused on,

1:17:14 I agree that externalities.

1:17:17 Can be,

1:17:18 can be justified.

1:17:19 Lower rates on goods that create externalities either positive or negative.

1:17:24 Uh,

1:17:25 or higher rates on those

1:17:26 with negative externalities that those are valid points and I

1:17:30 I didn't focus too much on the talk on that.

1:17:33 Um

1:17:36 Claudia on the.

1:17:39 Marketing in large stores that,

1:17:40 that's very interesting.

1:17:44 The way I think about this is

1:17:46 Walmart is a company that

1:17:49 they comply with taxes,

1:17:51 so you know when you go to a supermarket you always get a ticket.

1:17:54 So these type of places they typically use at least in Argentina they use it

1:17:59 they use these policies as a marketing device,

1:18:01 so they all of a sudden they put no VAT

1:18:04 because there is like an extra effect

1:18:06 on the month.

1:18:07 So if you,

1:18:08 if you don't put the sign,

1:18:09 the amount would be lower,

1:18:10 in other words.

1:18:12 I think supermarkets are fully aware of that.

1:18:15 It's different in

1:18:16 independent grocery stores where tax evasion might be 50%

1:18:21 and,

1:18:21 and it's like Gabriela was saying,

1:18:23 you know,

1:18:23 you go there

1:18:24 and you invite the,

1:18:26 the,

1:18:26 the owner to evade,

1:18:27 you say,

1:18:28 is it the same price if I pay in cash,

1:18:30 you're saying can we share the incidence of the of the evaded tax.

1:18:35 I think that there's a little bit different,

1:18:37 the marketing,

1:18:38 so I don't,

1:18:38 I don't know how much they want to

1:18:40 communicate this to consumers because to begin with,

1:18:43 they are not paying.

1:18:45 Um,

1:18:45 or they are evading 50% of the tax.

1:18:48 Um

1:18:50 This could be one of the reasons that explains

1:18:52 partial path through,

1:18:53 but there are different explanations.

1:18:55 One of them is imperfect competition,

1:18:58 and

1:18:58 I believe that the mechanisms,

1:19:00 we don't understand

1:19:01 them very well,

1:19:02 and there is space to do more research on this.

1:19:05 And then going

1:19:06 to Ari,

1:19:07 thank you very much for taking the time to

1:19:10 to read the papers and,

1:19:11 and

1:19:12 yeah,

1:19:12 and think about these problems.

1:19:14 I think it's a

1:19:17 It's very interesting,

1:19:18 your observation on the inequality.

1:19:20 I don't think we,

1:19:21 we talk much about that in the,

1:19:22 in the paper.

1:19:24 Uh,

1:19:24 in,

1:19:25 in Argentina,

1:19:26 um,

1:19:27 I also think it's very important to

1:19:28 measure the elasticity of switching across stores.

1:19:31 We don't have any evidence of that,

1:19:33 it's hard to get,

1:19:34 but it's,

1:19:34 it's an important topic

1:19:36 that people should be

1:19:38 thinking more carefully about.

1:19:40 Um,

1:19:43 Eliminating VAT exemptions,

1:19:45 yeah,

1:19:45 totally,

1:19:46 that,

1:19:46 that's so important,

1:19:47 it seems that there is some professional consensus that

1:19:51 many countries that's one of kind of a low hanging fruit,

1:19:55 politically very costly,

1:19:56 but to

1:19:58 improve a second best tax

1:19:59 such as the VAT.

1:20:01 And it has proven politically very costly like Bangladesh,

1:20:05 January 9th,

1:20:06 they

1:20:07 increased the,

1:20:08 they,

1:20:08 they

1:20:09 motionized the tax rates on 100 items,

1:20:12 1,

1:20:12 10 days later they retracted the decision

1:20:15 because they were starting to be protests.

1:20:17 I think that that part is,

1:20:18 I think it's very exciting,

1:20:19 it's something that I.

1:20:22 Maybe communication can can help like this type of figures that you show,

1:20:25 but another way to compensate with an extra,

1:20:29 an additional uh an alternative supplementary program.

1:20:33 Um,

1:20:35 yeah.

1:20:35 So,

1:20:36 yeah,

1:20:36 that's

1:20:37 one reflection.

1:20:38 And then for the turnover tax,

1:20:40 yeah,

1:20:40 I think it's um.

1:20:42 It's more prevalent than we think,

1:20:44 so local business taxes are prevalent in developed,

1:20:47 even in the US there are like 7 states that they have a gross receipt tax,

1:20:52 so that's that's the turnover of the US.

1:20:55 Tax rates are very low,

1:20:56 but

1:20:57 um.

1:20:58 It's very silent and we don't have enough evidence on this,

1:21:01 and yeah,

1:21:02 I would like to see more if possible.

1:21:05 So yes,

1:21:06 with this,

1:21:06 I think I'm gonna stop.

1:21:09 Great,

1:21:09 thank you.

1:21:09 Are there,

1:21:10 we have time for maybe one or two questions,

1:21:13 very,

1:21:13 very brief ones.

1:21:18 Nice presentation Dario.

1:21:19 Uh,

1:21:20 a couple of questions on,

1:21:21 on the local taxes.

1:21:24 Uh,

1:21:24 you show the distribution of different,

1:21:26 uh,

1:21:26 um,

1:21:27 sources of the taxation at the local level,

1:21:30 but a big chunk of the,

1:21:32 the,

1:21:32 uh,

1:21:32 tax revenue comes from transfer from the federal government

1:21:36 that they go and you don't display it,

1:21:38 uh,

1:21:38 so I don't know

1:21:39 how much of the,

1:21:40 uh,

1:21:41 tax revenue you're capturing with those graphs.

1:21:44 And the other,

1:21:44 uh,

1:21:45 point is you mentioned the thing about mobile money.

1:21:48 And the taxation of mobile money.

1:21:50 I was wondering when people pay,

1:21:52 uh,

1:21:52 with mobile devices,

1:21:54 are they evading,

1:21:55 for example,

1:21:56 the,

1:21:56 uh,

1:21:57 some of the taxes,

1:21:58 the VAT tax,

1:21:59 for example,

1:22:00 and if they can evade,

1:22:02 can you get to this point that Gabriela was mentioning

1:22:05 whether you can switch between across stores using the mobile payments.

1:22:12 Um

1:22:14 On the,

1:22:15 on the mobile money,

1:22:17 they,

1:22:18 if there is a VAT or like for instance Uganda or Tanzania,

1:22:22 I don't remember,

1:22:22 I think it's Uganda,

1:22:23 they have excise tax,

1:22:25 they have the VAT and then there is like a fee,

1:22:28 like,

1:22:28 so 3 taxes,

1:22:30 they do pay those taxes,

1:22:32 the one that I think is more relevant in terms of revenue is the fee

1:22:36 that they pay.

1:22:37 But

1:22:37 otherwise there would be some,

1:22:39 some,

1:22:39 in some cases there will be some taxes.

1:22:41 Sometimes these services,

1:22:43 these

1:22:44 transactions are not taxed,

1:22:46 and

1:22:47 I

1:22:47 think those are part of the

1:22:49 OECD pillar one,

1:22:51 if I remember

1:22:53 correctly.

1:22:53 And then on the local,

1:22:55 local

1:22:57 government,

1:22:58 it's true that from the figures I'm omitting grants

1:23:01 and transfers that come from the central government.

1:23:04 For provinces,

1:23:05 at least in Argentina,

1:23:06 that's a big chunk,

1:23:07 um,

1:23:09 so all revenues could be,

1:23:11 but,

1:23:11 but still,

1:23:11 you know,

1:23:12 subnational taxes can be,

1:23:15 can represent of the total

1:23:17 adding subnational and national taxes,

1:23:19 subnational taxes are

1:23:21 20%.

1:23:22 Of all the resources that Argentina,

1:23:25 so it's a significant amount of the GDP,

1:23:27 and it has remained constant over time.

1:23:29 So it's not that what is changing is the composition of national taxes,

1:23:33 but then the

1:23:34 share that they collect their own revenue is relatively constant over time.

1:23:38 So it's really the composition,

1:23:39 the way they are taxing

1:23:41 the different tax bases.

1:23:43 And for municipalities it is even more important like municipalities,

1:23:46 40% of the revenue that they get is own revenue,

1:23:49 on average,

1:23:50 40% is what they get and the rest is what they,

1:23:53 what the,

1:23:53 the.

1:23:55 The national government transfer to them.

1:23:57 So it's even more important for cities.

1:24:00 And

1:24:00 so I think that's why

1:24:03 even from a macro perspective it's

1:24:05 really important to understand the consequences.

1:24:08 OK,

1:24:09 we have one question online uh from Alistair.

1:24:11 Do you wanna unmute yourself and ask your question?

1:24:14 Uh,

1:24:14 but

1:24:14 please make it brief because we are running out of time.

1:24:17 Alistair.

1:24:22 Hi,

1:24:22 can you hear me?

1:24:23 Yes.

1:24:25 Uh fantastic.

1:24:26 Thanks,

1:24:26 excellent,

1:24:27 excellent presentation Dario.

1:24:29 I just,

1:24:29 we,

1:24:29 there was a bit of discussion here about the um

1:24:33 about the political economy of the VAT of VAT uh

1:24:36 and base broadening VAT reform and getting rid of the,

1:24:39 obviously very,

1:24:40 very badly targeted uh reduced rates.

1:24:42 Um,

1:24:43 one issue,

1:24:45 It's got quite a bit of attention recently,

1:24:48 so for example it's been

1:24:49 implemented in Uzbekistan,

1:24:51 in one of the regions of Brazil,

1:24:53 are these real time

1:24:55 back cashback regimes.

1:24:57 So I'll be interested in

1:24:59 your perspective and Gabriella is also on,

1:25:02 The feasibility of these

1:25:04 schemes in in

1:25:06 in low income countries and middle income countries,

1:25:10 particularly where,

1:25:11 The countries that

1:25:13 you would expect

1:25:14 to

1:25:15 have the technological capacity to implement these schemes,

1:25:20 Would likely also

1:25:23 be countries that

1:25:24 are able to effectively implement a traditional targeted cash transfer.

1:25:30 So I appreciate your views on that,

1:25:31 thank you.

1:25:34 And we have one more hand up,

1:25:35 so I'll just turn it over to Thomas.

1:25:37 Kanne,

1:25:38 can you unmute yourself?

1:25:45 Go ahead.

1:25:48 Uh,

1:25:49 we can't hear you.

1:25:52 Sorry,

1:25:53 OK,

1:25:53 so I'll turn it back to,

1:25:54 to Dario and Gabriela if you have anything to add.

1:25:57 Thank you.

1:25:58 Yeah,

1:25:58 thank you,

1:25:58 Alastair.

1:25:59 I think it's,

1:25:59 um,

1:26:00 yeah,

1:26:00 in some countries true that like Brazil,

1:26:02 Rio Grande do Sul,

1:26:03 and then in Pakistan it's.

1:26:06 They have the technical ability to have like a VAT cashback

1:26:09 program where they do rebates instead of having to use rates,

1:26:13 um,

1:26:14 I think it's feasible,

1:26:16 but I also,

1:26:16 I also think it's,

1:26:17 uh,

1:26:18 we,

1:26:18 we shouldn't expect it to be magic,

1:26:20 I mean,

1:26:20 the devil is

1:26:22 in the details,

1:26:23 and

1:26:23 I think these programs,

1:26:24 cashback programs,

1:26:25 they should be designed very carefully if they

1:26:28 really want to reach the target population,

1:26:30 um.

1:26:31 But it's,

1:26:32 it's true.

1:26:32 I have a,

1:26:33 I left in the,

1:26:34 the slides that will be posted online.

1:26:36 I put one in the appendix,

1:26:38 where I illustrate the,

1:26:40 the example of Argentina with a card

1:26:43 called Tartament which is for um.

1:26:46 The,

1:26:47 the

1:26:49 cash transfer recipients.

1:26:51 If they pay,

1:26:52 they receive the cash transfer in a debit card.

1:26:54 If they use a debit card in the in any like supermarket,

1:26:58 then there is like a cashback that they get automatically,

1:27:01 right?

1:27:01 So it's targeted to people that receive a cash

1:27:04 like a

1:27:05 cash transfer,

1:27:07 and then it's,

1:27:07 you know,

1:27:08 you're really reaching the people that

1:27:10 need it most,

1:27:11 and it's,

1:27:12 it's kind of automatic,

1:27:13 so we have

1:27:14 the systems to implement that.

1:27:17 So those are interesting policies and I'm.

1:27:19 I,

1:27:19 I,

1:27:20 I hope to see

1:27:21 much more in the coming years.

1:27:24 I,

1:27:25 I would second that.

1:27:26 I think that,

1:27:26 uh,

1:27:27 this is one way to get around the political economy difficulty of

1:27:32 eliminating tax exemptions.

1:27:34 And to the,

1:27:35 to the extent that you,

1:27:36 if you are a low-income person and you are a beneficiary of the tax

1:27:42 transfer system,

1:27:43 or sorry,

1:27:43 the cash transfer system,

1:27:45 so you receive social assistance,

1:27:47 there's a means,

1:27:48 means test somewhere that says that you,

1:27:50 You know,

1:27:51 you deserved a break.

1:27:53 Um,

1:27:54 instead of having to wait for,

1:27:56 you know,

1:27:57 paying the VAT and then getting,

1:27:59 getting cash,

1:27:59 um,

1:28:01 Through an alternative program you immediately get that

1:28:04 um

1:28:05 relief tax relief

1:28:07 uh in a targeted fashion so it it sort of ticks all the boxes in terms of efficiency.

1:28:12 It also gets to the political economy question very quickly

1:28:16 um

1:28:17 the the issue of course is

1:28:19 does the tax administration have the capacity to.

1:28:23 Merge

1:28:24 essentially the tax administration and the

1:28:25 and the social assistance administration databases in order to make that happen

1:28:32 and the and and here I would say

1:28:34 it's only gonna be the middle income countries that have

1:28:37 sophisticated tax authorities sophisticated

1:28:40 um

1:28:40 social assistance uh registries and and so on

1:28:43 and also the other

1:28:45 the other um.

1:28:46 I guess danger here is that a lot of the social assistance prop uh registries

1:28:52 even in upper middle income countries are not

1:28:55 going to fully target

1:28:57 everyone who's at the bottom of the distribution,

1:29:00 right?

1:29:00 So there are lots of,

1:29:01 uh,

1:29:01 leakages and and sort of.

1:29:04 People who should potentially be getting that relief that aren't going

1:29:07 to be getting relief just because of the eligibility criteria,

1:29:11 uh,

1:29:11 for that social assistance.

1:29:13 So there's that danger that if you have those

1:29:15 polls that you're not going to be getting it,

1:29:18 those,

1:29:18 uh,

1:29:18 populations,

1:29:19 but I think it it there it's,

1:29:20 there's a huge promise here.

1:29:21 I think the Brazilian example is beautiful

1:29:24 and,

1:29:25 and,

1:29:25 uh,

1:29:26 yeah,

1:29:26 hopefully more countries can do more of this.

1:29:29 Thank you.

1:29:31 Great,

1:29:31 thank you very much.

1:29:32 Um,

1:29:32 thank you everyone for joining.

1:29:33 Um,

1:29:35 the,

1:29:35 just a reminder,

1:29:36 the event recording will be,

1:29:37 uh,

1:29:38 posted online,

1:29:39 uh,

1:29:39 as well as the,

1:29:40 the slides and uh if you wanted to follow up.

1:29:42 For those of you who are on the World Bank's intranet.

1:29:46 Uh,

1:29:46 you can listen to,

1:29:48 uh,

1:29:48 the AI generated podcast of,

1:29:50 of Dario's paper on,

1:29:52 uh,

1:29:52 uh,

1:29:53 tax,

1:29:53 uh,

1:29:53 VAT tax cuts in Argentina

1:29:55 on the DC decoded,

1:29:57 uh,

1:29:57 podcast series.

1:29:59 Um

1:30:01 With that,

1:30:02 thank you Dario,

1:30:03 thank you,

1:30:03 Gabriela,

1:30:04 um,

1:30:04 for that really insightful,

1:30:05 um,

1:30:06 presentation and,

1:30:07 and discussion and thank you all.

1:30:09 See you.

1:30:20 You know

1:30:21 not.

1:30:23 Very.

1:30:27 No.

1:30:30 I.

showAllTimestamps
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transcript
Well, welcome everybody. Thanks for joining us today at this um, April edition of our policy research talks. As, um, many of you know, these talks give us an opportunity to present our work, uh, coming out of the World Bank's research department. With the goal of sharing the findings with colleagues inside and outside the department, uh, as well as, uh, outside of the World Bank. So a warm welcome to everybody, uh, in person and online through the Webex or the live stream. Uh, today's topic is revenue mobilization is especially critical for low and middle income countries. Uh, where tax systems often operate under significant constraints, such as informality, low tax capacity, political hurdles, and limited data analytics, which frequently lead to ad hoc policy adjustments rather than comprehensive reform. However, as we'll hear today, advances in data analytics are opening new possibilities for evidence-based real-time policymaking. To guide us through these new developments, we're joined by Dario Totarolo, an economist from the macroeconomics and growth team here at the Development Research Group. His research focuses on public economics in developing countries and seeks to understand how public policies affect workers, businesses, and consumers. Also the distributional impacts and the unintended effects due to design issues related to tax policy. And how governments can address tax avoidance and evasion, especially at the top of the income distribution, and with April 15th coming soon. Um Prior to joining the bank, he was an assistant professor at the University of Nottingham and a postdoctoral fellow at the Institute for Fiscal Studies. He holds a PhD in Economics from UC Berkeley and a BSC and MSC in Economics from Uh, Universidad Nacional de la Plata. He received the National Tax Association's Outstanding doctoral dissertation prize in 2020. I'm also uh delighted to welcome our discussion today, Gabriele Naust. She's a practice manager in the global unit of the poverty and equity Global department at the World Bank. Previously, she served in various positions as, as lead poverty economist in the West and Central Africa region of the World Bank, Latin America and Caribbean. And Eastern Europe and Central Asian regions. She has led technical work and policy dialogue on the distributional impact of fiscal policies, ex ante analysis of the distributional impacts of climate change and climate action, and on methods and tools to decompose changes in poverty and inequality. She's regional analysis on poverty and inequality in Africa, global analysis on fiscal policy in developing countries, and the barriers to women's labor force participation and agency. So, uh, the The rules of the game today, Dario will present for approximately 45 minutes, after which we'll hear from Gabriela for about 10 minutes or so. Then we'll open the floor to Q&A, uh, from the audience. Um, if you have a question, please use the raise hand option on the Webex. Um, and if you're in the room, obviously raise your hand and go to the mic. Um, just a reminder, the session is being recorded, uh, so please ensure that your microphones are, um, muted when you're not speaking. With that over to you, Dario. Thank you, Leo. Uh, how do I change to the That one going through that. But, uh, It's still not 2. So I guess, is this, we have to do it in Webex? Because I see here and slide show. Bro, yeah. There you go. Yeah. OK. full screen. OK. Let's begin. Thank you, um, those joining online. And those who made it in person despite the weather. Um, so now I realize by looking at the, the cover of the slide that you know it could be, well, the, the cover of a TED talk or even like a Quentin Tarantino movie. But don't get your hopes up, still about taxes, so. So let, let me, let me start by highlighting two quotes, um. The first one says that taxes are a necessary evil. But, um, and the fewer we have of them, the better. What I want to argue here is that taxes from an efficiency perspective are fundamentally bad because they often discourage something and make the pie smaller. So if you're familiar with the supply and demand chart diagram on the left with is a tax here and we see that quantities are decreasing. But countries need tax revenue to achieve development goals, so this is a green area. And in the process they typically create uh losers and winners so the incidence of attacks or who is benefited and affected is shared by consumers and producers or whoever is affected by it. Selecting the tax mix and levels is usually at the forefront of policies policies agendas, and here we have a figure that I like a lot but we see at the top of the figure that um tax levels relative to the GDP and the figure is splitting this into um different income levels so high income, upper middle, lower middle and low income countries. And also by the type of tax, so direct taxes on income or profits and indirect taxes on mostly um consumption. And then we have other sources of revenue. So what's really striking in this figure is that you know if you focus on the bars in the middle for each country group, we can see that they are very similar. So in terms of indirect taxes are quite similar across the spectrum. And we see big differences in, in, in, in sorry in direct taxes such as those on wages and income and so on, so this is really where um high income economies make a difference. But, um, typically, as you can see they do it in different ways and colors and What we see here is that there are some vanilla principles, what I put at the top of the slide neutrality, equity, um, and simplicity. And we see That, um, these are useful guides, but in practice what we often see is that setting up efficiency, efficient and equitable tax systems is, is tough, it's a tall order and here's the second quote that I want to highlight which says that in developing countries tax policies is often the art of the possible rather than the pursuit of the optimal. I want to highlight 4 main barriers. The first one is informal economy, so typically employment and informal consumption, and there is a, a good policy talk by Pier on this topic. The second one is weak capacity and high compliance costs for taxpayers. There is a very good talk by our colleague Oyola. There are also political roadblocks typically captured by elites, um, in the society and also resistance from lower income people. And then the 4th factor which is the one I'm going to focus most in this talk is limited data analytics, typically because uh you know tax or governments don't have time. Or don't, don't have the capacity to do it or they see no value in this. But we are lagging behind, and this is one of the points that I want to make in, in the talk. Taken together these four barriers, um could rationalize why we have inefficient tax and inequitable tax structures that perpetuate in time, and these are typically characterized by service taxes. And that typically are production efficient and also marginal reforms or changes rather than more holistic reforms, comprehensive reforms. So let me give you a timely example of what I mean by service tax. So taxes are typically taxes that are much easier to collect. So in developing countries you know you create revenue quite fast. But at the cost of production inefficiencies. And this is a key question to keep in mind when we think about these taxes. The revenue efficiency gains offset production efficiency losses for that tax and also comparing to other tools. So the fact that I want to focus on for this example is the tax on mobile money. Mole money adoption and usage has increased substantially in the last, I would say 5 or 10 years, 5 years especially. But so has the tax on mobile money transactions, especially in African countries. So this is Possesses a complex dilemma. So here we have 4 factors, 2 in favor, 2 against. The first one is that this tax helps mobilize a fair amount of revenue, so you can see in this figure that I'm borrowing from a paper, um, from the ICTD group, and also some from the, the Zimbabwe Tax Administration. Especially in Zimbabwe, right? You can see that in 2024 it was like 5% of all the revenue they collect. The second positive aspect is that with this tax, countries typically can reach the informal sector. So if there are some informal businesses that are making some transactions with their phones, then they are going to pay a tax. And then the negative aspects are that of course, as you know, they discourage more money usage and Some people argue that they could be regressive. We still don't know the answer to this, so we need more evidence. So let me illustrate this from 4 countries. I'm uh going to, to borrow some figures from a report from the ICTD. And I'm going to show you some evidence for Ghana, Uganda, Tanzania, and Zimbabwe. Starting with Ghana, in this figure we can see the blue bars are the total number of transactions done with mobile, with their mobile phones. And then the orange line is the value of those transactions. And then the, the yellow bar here shows the introduction of the tax. So what we can see very quickly, this is more, you know, macro facts. We can see that despite the introduction of the tax, we see that the number of er transactions keep increasing and we also see that the orange line is, is increasing as well. When we go to Uganda, we see the same pattern, right? The transactions keep going up, the green line keeps going up. And similarly, If we look at Tanzania, so everything seems to be going up. But there is a visible economic drag in this figure, and as you can see if we project a line through the, the yellow, um, time series over here, you can see that there is like a missing mass that we can calculate. This is connected to the first figure that I showed you today, the supply and demand, when there is, you know, we are losing some welfare when we introduce a tax. The story in Zimbabwe is a little bit different, um. Zimbabwe introduced its tax in October 2018 and you can see it now just in, in two months. Three months, they collected a significant amount of revenue, but then in 2019 they collected 10% of total revenue from this tax. So this is No, it's a lot of, it's, it's, it's very, it's a very important source for, for these countries. And this is a revenue that can be used for development goals, you know, to fix roads and social protection and so on. As a benchmark because now it's uh popular these days, you can see that even you know it's collecting more revenue than other taxes such as custom duties. Now, what's the issue The key question is what's happening with money usage and in particular also incidents. So when we look at macroevolution of um number of the volume of transactions er done with mobile phones. So you can see that in, in Zimbabwe in particular, there was a, a big increase when there was a cash cri crisis at the beginning of the 2018. When they introduce the tax, we see that it decreases a little bit, but then it keeps increasing and the things get really bad, so there is like a 60% decrease when there were some more macro restrictions at force. So these are uh restrictions, some bannings on some bans on mobile money transactions. So here's where you see that this is um really affecting the economy. So the point of this graph is that it could be more than taxes and we need More, uh, research to disentangle the effect of these taxes related to other confounding factors. So what are some early reflections that I want to make out of this is The tax can help mobilize valuable revenue, and it can help tax the informal sector. There are visible welfare losses. It doesn't seem to be breaking the economy. It's an open question. And the third point is that the design varies a lot across countries. So it goes for example, flat 0.5% in Uganda to 22 bands in Tanzania where there is like an increased fee that they have to pay depending on the value of the transaction. And then the second point I want to make is that eyeballing trends like from this figure. Eyeballing trends over here, it's informative, but it's not enough. So we need more forensic microanalysis to set a precedent and in particular to estimate two unknowns. The first one is the size of the distortion. And also the marginal value of public funds. Marginal value of public funds is essentially uh the welfare loss for each additional dollar collected in revenue. And the second one is the incidence, who is benefiting, who is being affected by this, by this tax and by any tax. So more generally, the point that I want to make in this talk is that countries have reached a tax and data crossroads. Um, and It's key to recognize that there are, that these 4 barriers that I mentioned at the beginning of the talk. Are not laws of nature and these are choices. So for example, whether to give a tax relief via exemptions or reduce rates on capital income or a particular sector and the decision to invest in tax capacity, collecting information, communications to get, you know, kind of alleviate the political economy of reforms. And investing in data analytics, then, you know, seeing the value of data analytics for policy choices, for policy decisions. It's key to recognize that there is a tax credibility revolution, um, and the key is that there is a landscape where we have like electronic government, e-wallets, electronic filing, electronic invoices. Artificial intelligence, high frequency data, global coordination, and so on. Believe me, countries are getting so much data, so much information that they don't know what to do with it. So it's sitting in many cases it's sitting in the tax administration, and there is value in this. What can they do with this? They can. Improve the use of second best taxes such as value added tax, personal income tax. And they can better understand the best tools like it's happening in Africa with mobile mining. We need to understand what is the size of the elasticity of that. So for this I'm, uh, I have two points here. The first one is we can use data for ex-ante design so we can understand the anatomy of a tax, a tax that is currently, currently in place. And the second point is an ex post analysis where we actually evaluate past reforms and ongoing policies, and we help governments contract counterfactuals of policies or counterfactual scenario. What would happen if we do this or that. So the outline of the talk. Um, I try to be comprehensive. I know where to skip if I run out of time, but I wanna talk about national taxes and subnational taxes, in particular, the value of the tax, then the personal income tax, and lastly subnational taxes because I, I feel it's a very important topic that has received much less attention. OK. So let me start with the most important uh source of revenue in, in low and middle-income countries. Um, this tax has suffered from efficiency and equity, equity shortcomings, but it's still preferable to other taxes, and the point that I want to make here is that this is a tax that can be improved. It's a tool. What caught my attention to, to get into this topic and write papers and so on is that this tool is often used to affect the economy and here I put P and Q. So prices. And quantities or activities, but this is a very, it's a costly way to pursue equity. Or stimulate the economy and often has unintended consequences. And the key, again, I'm going to repeat this many times today, but the impact is usually not measured. And the incidence is not well understood. And this is especially problematic or um there is less evidence in low-income countries and low and middle-income countries. So I'm going to provide some lessons um for Argentina and Mexico. This is in blue because it's connected to, to prices, so I try to play with this. And then for Peru, I'm going to show you some evidence on uh VAT that was meant to stimulate a particular sector. So let me begin with that. This is a, why, why should we, why should we care about VAT cuts and prices because many countries are cutting the grocery tax rates on food on a scale not seen before, with the ultimate goal of helping the most vulnerable cope with the soaring cost of living. So essentially they cut the VAT with the hope that prices will decrease and this will increase purchasing power of people in difficult times. So here you have a list, non-exhaustive list from um a paper I'm working on uh where we have on the left countries that have abolished the VAT or sales tax on food. Then in the middle some countries that have done partial VAT cuts and then some countries that were considering at some point. This is mostly for after 2020. So I'm highlighting in, in yellow two countries, um, Bangladesh and Argentina. I'm going to focus on this. Why did I choose, uh, these two countries? Well, first of all, because, uh, Bangladesh has provided unconditional support to Argentina in the last, uh, World Cup. So, I think it's fair to, to give a space to this. But second, so I was in Bangladesh in February, uh, for a week and I was struck by the Number of VAT cuts that have implemented since 2023. Uh, in particular, there was, when I was there, it was a training on tax expenditures and there was this VAT card I implemented at the end of uh 24 uh on cooking oils. Uh and the idea was to ease prices and ensure that there was enough supply. This tax expired recently. There was big pressures to extend it to June 2025 and this is a very common thing, you know, there is a temporary thing and then people try to make it permanent. But there is no analysis of this tax and uh I, I, I, what I want to argue is that it's possible to do it. The second example is um Argentina. Why Argentina? Because I have a paper on this. It's the best paper ever. And Argentina cut the VAT, the value added tax, so tax on consumption, uh, from 21% to 0%, so pretty dramatic large change on basic foodstuff. It was in place for 4 months and a half, and the goal was to increase the purchasing power of, of people in, in difficult times. So this is a photo of a supermarket in Argentina. You can see that there is a banner saying IVA, that's VAT in Spanish. And, and you can see that they are saying that there are over 1900 products with 0% VAT and then they list the different categories. So in a recent paper, we analyzed the effectiveness of these VAT cuts um to lower prices and reach the target population. What do we do? We, the products that you see in the supermarkets, we have data from these places. So for every product in the supermarket, every product has a barcode attached to it and it's unique and you can track that barcode over time. So we have all this data for all the supermarkets in Argentina where we observe the price and the number of units that they sold weekly or monthly. What do we do with this data? We split all the products that you see here on the shelves into those that were affected by the VAT cut and those that were not. So for example, tea, milk, eggs, and pasta were subject to 0% VAT but not coffee, cereal, and crackers. So we split these goods into these groups and then we track their prices and consumption over time. What do we find? We find that um what do we do with this? So we compare prices of these two groups over time. What we find is in this figure we can see time on the horizontal axis and then the price change on the vertical axis. And here what you can see is That before the reform, which is the first vertical line, you see that prices were evolving similarly between these two groups, so that's why it oscillates around 0. And then The VAT quickly lowered prices in these chain supermarkets. So these chain supermarkets are like the most formal and biggest ones, uh, like Walmart, right? So you know, within one week you see that there is almost full pass through. So it's a large drop in prices. It's relatively stable over time. But it's not full pass through. So full pass through would be if it reaches the blue line. When the VAT cut ended, prices shot up even higher than the pre-reform level. So this is one of the risks of temporary tax changes. And there is an asymmetry that has been documented in our in our papers. So this means that prices were, if the policy had not taken place, probably prices will be lower. But the twist, the twist of the, the twist of the paper is that novelty of the paper is that the government perhaps preempting that there could be an asymmetry. They imposed some caps. On how much prices could increase, but they did this for some of the treated goods. So for example, let's take rice. Within rice, you always, you typically have basmati, brown rice. Organic rice and so on. So there were caps on like the fanciest rices like uh organic rice but not brown rice, the most standard one or white rice. When we look at those that had a cap, we actually see that prices increase. Less, so it was binding and but they overdid it, right? So they were, they reached uh uh lower level relative to the pre-reformed one. Now a key question is, this is chain supermarkets. What happens in more independent grocery stores which many people shop in those places? In independent grocery stores, so now I'm going to move from this figure with weekly data to monthly data, and I'm going to split this effect, price effect into chain supermarkets like Walmart and independent grocery stores. We see the red line, independent grocery stores, we see that prices fell less. After the VAT cut. So we see that there is a pass-through, it's like a drop of 6%, it's like 35% pass-through rate. So prices fell less after the VAT cut and they overshot more after the VAT was reinstated. So a key question for welfare analysis is where do people shop? Because you know you see that in independent stores it's much more limited than prices are increasing more and the gaps are really binding in Walmart type of supermarkets. Well It turns out that low income people are substantially more likely to shop in the, in these places, independent grocery stores. So this means that they benefited less from the VAT cut and they were negatively affected by the VAT increase. OK, so this is what in the paper we have a model where we estimate numerically the consequences of the welfare effect of this, this reform. One digression that I want to make is the data that we are using. So this is the underlying what, what I, what do I mean by scanner data. This is a screen, screenshot from our data. It's hard to see, but let me tell you what we have here. In this column, the one, people online cannot see what I'm point, but there is a, a column here where we have a unique barcode. This is the same internationally, so you can track the same goods, so this is Coca-Cola. And then we have the month of the year and then we see in which store that is like a fake ID doesn't mean anything, but there is a code attached to that store, right? So this is the type of data that we are using. We can georeference this data. Um, this is for a, for a city in Argentina. This is the type of data we are using in this paper. So preempting a question that many of you might have is this data only available in high or upper middle income countries? The answer is no. This is not just not just in, in those countries, but it's actually prevalent in many countries. We have an ongoing agenda with um global tax program funded by the global tax program, and thank you, and the IFS and, and CEFIP. Where we have market data for over 20 countries. And with this data, so you see the countries here on the, the chart on the right. The one we have money to, to purchase are those in uh black. So it's like a fee that you pay and you have a license to use it. But then you can see that there is, there are many countries at different levels of development. So it's a very interesting source of data uh where you can track prices and consumption over time. What are we doing with this? We are analyzing, for example, the tax on feminine hygiene products. These are reforms that are taking place in many countries. Uh, and also price and consumption, uh, habits. Something that I want to, to emphasize, er, let me see, yeah. Is why do we care about, why do we need this type of data? Because we want to, we want to know what the answer to this question is. How is this? How are these reforms, VAT? Are they effective? Are they or are they reaching the goal that they aim to? And this is just preliminary evidence from Mexico. In Mexico, this is using public data that can be downloaded online actually. But in Mexico they abolished the VAT on women's sanitary products in 2022. We check very quickly what happened with prices. It turns out the prices are dropping by only 50% of the VAT cut, right? So it's like 50% is being pocketed by the supply chain, supermarket manufacturers. So it's very important to kind of try to have a sense of like global evidence on this. There is some global evidence, not global, but 55 developed economies, and they find that path through is full in those countries. So we see, we, we just have one example here but it seems that at least in Mexico it's half of it. And then the last point that I want to make about scanner data is um there are many of these market companies that provide this type of data and every country has one, and they have this, you go to a supermarket, you see when they scan that goes to a database. The way I got access to this data was uh uh an anecdote on LinkedIn. So I contacted someone there that I knew work at a company that have this data, and then I set up a meeting and then they gave me a quote and then I purchased the data. This is, so it requires some entrepreneurship, but these data are available in many, many, uh, countries. It's expensive for researchers, it's not expensive for countries, for governments, so. 1 2nd. The last example that I want to um talk about, how much time do I have uh Dion? But 20, yeah, OK. So I think I, I'm gonna go fast on this one because I'm presenting this paper at the end of April in a, a conference here at the bank, but the point that I want to make, we have an ongoing collaboration with the tax administration and the Ministry of Finance in Peru. There was a recent in 2022 they got the VAT rate for hotels and restaurants with the goal of stimulating the sector. And we have this collaboration where Peru has very strict data privacy, um, uh, regulations. So the way to access, to work with them was they assign a data scientist and then we collaborate with them, we send codes, they send output back and, and this is a collaboration that it's time consuming but it, you know, it's an alternative way in which we can make things uh work. So in this case in Peru, it seems that the, the VAT card is not working as intended. So in particular there is partial take up which is shown in this figure. Um, The tax is decreasing, so this is a chart showing that tax, taxes are decreasing by 50%. There is a drop in revenue from the government. Uh, I apologize and I'm going fast here, but I want to cover everything. There doesn't seem to be any effect on employment, so zero effect. And then there is some effect on sales and a decreasing purchases. So the way we interpret this is that this is a sector that is known for a high evasion and what we argue is that when you lower the output tax, then firms start to accumulate a lot of credit. So if they were engaged in fraudulent activities by purchasing fake invoices and so on, the incentive after this, this reform is to start doing so. So we are trying to um Dig into the mechanisms, but uh this is still preliminary and I think it's uh important to, to get more evidence. So the takeaways, VAT cuts have, uh, often have effects that policymakers didn't anticipate. There is value of data analytics for tax policy decisions, and there are some contentious areas around permanent VAT changes that, uh, I didn't touch, but I think are very important. One of them is whether we should be having, if we want to help the poor people, do, should we reduce tax rates or, you know, more targeted tax rebates like, uh, many people are. Uh, analyzing, um, today. And then the political economy sometimes it's not feasible to remove exemptions. It has proven to be very difficult in countries like Bangladesh and Kenya more recently. Moving on to the second, uh, part of the talk, personal income tax. It's a tax we aspire to rely on but often fall short of. This is the most progressive tax that we have, but it's not very redistributive. The reason is that the tax base is porous. In particular because there is informality and there are preferential treatments such as special deductions or even um reduced rates. So, but typically it reaches the top 5%, even lower than that of the adult population in, in many low and middle income countries. I want to focus on two key design features. The first one is the exemption floor. So the exemption floor is the floor that if you make more money than that, you, you become subject to the tax. There is a beautiful paper by Anders Jensen where he shows that as countries develop. The employee share Increases, which means that they uh transition from self-employment to employee employment. And as that happens, the threshold. Decreases across the income distribution, which means that more people become subject to it. But in practice and in the short run, it has proven very hard politically challenging and costly to expand the tax base and, and I want to argue that by focusing on one example from, from Argentina. Argentina experienced with in the last 22 years with base, base expansion via under indexing. Underindexing means that they Nominal incomes increase, but tax thresholds are fixed and therefore there is bracket creep, so more people, you know, your tax liability increases and more people start paying taxes. This figure here shows the evolution of the share of former workers that pay the tax, and you can see that there is a lot of variability. The reason for this is that there are different threats, so there was a period of formalization until 2008, but then there was inflation, which means that more people became subject to the tax, and it has been politically costly for different governments, right wing, left wing, and so on. The government has been adjusting. So you know, we see that the tax base is expanding but all of a sudden they have to cut it because it's politically very costly. And it seems to me at least that they have overdid it in the last period of time. Um, you know, again, this is a good tax we have been discussing in, in many countries they often discussing like ways to decrease it rather than increase it, but again it's it's like a political economy issue that it's very difficult to sort out and we need data for this. So this is just a screenshot of uh the metro station in Buenos Aires. Where they are saying damn tax on labor and there is like a national strike to, you know, kind of decrease it. The second feature that I want to focus on is the scope. There is a long standing debate on whether income taxes should be comprehensive, meaning they tax all the income sources, or whether we should have like a dual. Schedule our tax system in which you have like progressive rates for labor income and then different flat rates for for for capital income. there is a debate. Um, what I want to argue here is that regardless of this debate, it's key to have a better diagnostic and better impact measures of um what's going on in low and middle-income countries, in particular, to Shed some evidence on the, on this debate on comprehensive versus dual. It's key to understand that capital and labor income boundaries are often blurry and unclear. And the second one is that there is some, some, there is a paper by Piketty and coauthors that show that the tax differential, so whether you apply a lower tax rate to capital income, that differential declines with the income shifting in artisticity. So income shifting ethicity is the ability for let's say a capital rentier or an executive of a firm. To declare income as labor income or to declare it as dividend, OK? So it's very important to measure the size of this elasticity. We know zero or very little about this. So for this second point I want to highlight some great evidence from Honduras. This is work by Tiago Scott Pierre who is or was sitting here and Um, and it's, it's a great type of collaboration that they managed to develop with the tax administration in Honduras. What do they do in this work? They assess the effective tax rate of top earners. The effective tax rate is the percentage of the income that they pay in taxes, right? The key of this work is that they have a comprehensive view of all the income sources of Honduras by linking personal income tax records to corporate tax records. And with this Analysis with these tools, what they do is they assign and distributed profits, so retained earnings from a company, they assign that to the shareholders of those companies. What do they find? They find that at least in Honduras, it seems that effective tax rates increase, so the progressivity increases all the way to the top. This is for the richest, so something I want to emphasize is personal income tax in Honduras applies to the top, um, 75,000 people, like top 1.5%. OK, so it's really targeted at the top. We see that it increases with, with, uh, income. But the key is that when you decompose this into different sources, we see that. It's mostly undistributed profits at the top, so it's the blue shaded area, what matters and Uh, it's what dominates at the top, and this is what it, what is. Uh, working as a backstop for the personal income tax in the sense, you know, the reason we get progressivity all the way to the top, we have a tax rate of 2 25% for both personal income tax and corporate income tax. But this is a very, I would say peculiar situation. In most countries, the personal income tax becomes regressive at the top. So we have this evidence. From Argentina. I'm not lucky like uh Tatiana, Tiago and, and, and coauth to have a collaboration with Argentina, but something that is really fascinating for Argentina is that they publish. Tax tabulations since 1990 or so, very detailed tax stabulations online. These, these are public and this is an intermediate step that I think many countries should be uh doing. So with these tax stabulations online, what I did was to sort people based on their total income, and here I show that for the richest, so you know for the top. 0.1%, so the richest 4 1000 people in Argentina, the tax system becomes regressive at the top, especially for the richest 2000 people. What's going on? It's that capital income share. Increases at the top and capital income is taxed at preferential rates lower than the other, the, the regular personal income tax. So what's missing from this evidence is um offshore income and wealth, for example, it's not here and consumption through the firm. The second point is very hard to think empirical to address. There's a beautiful paper by Le where they do this in Portugal with some data from I think an app or mobile phones. I don't remember well. The key for offshore and income wealth, key question is how much is out there. I have a paper on this. In Argentina, at least in Argentina it seems that there is a lot. There was a tax amnesty in 2016. That reveal assets worth 2 21% of GDP when they disclose this income, this wealth. When you disclose a stock, you have to start paying taxes on the flow. So that's why there was a large fiscal externality, positive externality and the the capital income tax base more than doubled, and this was a permanent change, uh, enduring change. So this is, there is a key role for automatic exchange of information and the common reporting standard. And again I want to emphasize countries, and I know this because I spoke with tax administrations, they are receiving. Millions of records. They don't know, they don't know what to do with it, how to clean it, how to harmonize it, and how to link it. So again, I think there is space here for data analytics to um to help. The last topic that I want to, to talk about are subnational taxes. These are widespread with accessible data and yet they are understudied. There is a key question which is how local governments finance development and at what economic and political cost. This is a cri a critical question that received much less attention. Um, But you know, data analytics again it's much needed here uh to, to understand the anatomy of these taxes and what is the impact of different policies that they have implemented over time. I'm going to focus on two taxes which are the most important at the local level, local business tax and then property tax, if I have time. Otherwise I will skip it. So local business tax um It's like the, I would say it's like the comfort food of public finances. Uh, because it's like, um, you know, you get a lot of it, but it's, it's unhealthy. So it's a fiscal crush with economic cost. Why? er this is due to lower political cost compared to a property tax which is typically uh unpopular and politically costly. It's easier to collect because there's the revenue is typically concentrated at the very top, and I'm going to show you a figure on this. And then the incidence of the tax, so who is really affected by tax, it's, it's fuzzier compared to the property tax. The property tax, is it a sleeping giant or is it a tax that is doomed to fail? There is increasing consensus that the tax is underutilized, but it's getting a lot of um academic attention and there are many studies uh on this tax, and I think it's great to, to have this. So why should we care about subnational taxation because there are also interesting macro dynamics um in different countries. It's hard to get surprisingly. Uh, good data, macro data on um Collection levels for different countries, um, to me this is surprising because it's surprising also that there are not more academics working on this because if you think about it. In Argentina and Mexico there are over 2000 municipalities. In Brazil, 5000 municipalities, in Nigeria, 800. In the Philippines, 1 1500 municipalities. So this, the opportunity for PhD students and for academics and so on to shed light on this tax is endless, you know, it's a matter of reaching out and see who's interested in collaborating. Um, going back to the, to the macrodynamics, this figure is very concerning. So we have here the composition of the tax revenue for the 24 provinces of Argentina. We have the turnover tax, property tax and other taxes. Turnover tax is a tax, it's like the it's VAT but worse. It's like a tax on gross sales, so you can deduct anything. So it's perhaps one of the worst taxes that exist in theory. Um, it has advantages and disadvantages, but in principle for efficiency it's, it's, it's very bad, and we see that you know, over time, at the beginning in 1980, roughly 50% the, it was 50% turnover tax and property tax. Today they essentially depend on, on turnover taxes. 84% of subnational revenue, own revenue is coming from this. A similar pattern emerges in municipalities, so the, the lowest level that we have in Argentina, we see that they also impose their own. Turnover tax at low rates, but still, you know, it's, they are becoming, they are depending more and more on a tax that in principle in an upper middle in an upper middle income country, I, I think this is a little bit concerning, but again we need to balance, we need better diagnostic, we need to understand what is the value of raising this extra revenue versus not taxing at all or using a different instrument. So that's why I put in the title Good Politics, uh, Bad Policy as a question mark. So what I want to highlight here is some er ongoing work that I have with uh Santiago Garria and Isidio Guarducci where we are using. Micro tax data from uh all the provinces of Argentina. And I want to highlight 5 styled facts. So again, turnover tax is a tax applies very low rates to to gross sales. It's very easy to collect and administer. Uh, it provides a stable source of revenue, but the main issue is that it creates like a cascading where you tax the same transaction several times, so this compounds into the price. Um, so it's, it's, you know, in theory really bad. So let me show you 5 stylized facts and what, uh, where are we going, where are we heading with this. The first one is that when you split the, the sample of firms into different bins, so here the bottom 90%. Based on their total sales, the next 9%, the next 0.9% and the The largest group of firms, the top 0.1%, so these are essentially almost 400 firms. So you can see that all the activity at least in Argentina is concentrated here, so like 57% is explained by this group. The second fact that I want to show is that these firms have multiple activities. So we have data at the firm level, firm month activity level. So you can see that in red, we have the top 1%, the last triangle is the top 1%. The number of activities that they have is, you know, like 9. So they have some services, transportation, and then they sell something and so on. The 3rdtu fact is that they operate in multiple jurisdictions, so we know where these firms are selling their goods. Right? And we see that this increases with firm size, so we have percentiles of annual sales. We see that the top, the, the largest 400 firms. Um, they have, they operate in about on average 20 jurisdictions. There are 24 in Argentina, so they sell almost to to the entire country. The fourth fact is that there are multiple rates um that increase with firm size, so they are relative, so there are multiple rates. So here we see for different sectors, primary sector, manufacturing, retail, financial, and, and services. At the very top were, were. That explains most of the macroeconomy, we saw that they increase because there are some progressive rates that they have introduced over time. So that explains why the, the revenue has increased er for this particular tool. And the last fact that I want to show is that dispersion, tax rate dispersion. Also increase it with firm size. And this is concerning. Because the dispersion of tax rate is one of the sources of misallocation in an economy, right? So here what we are doing in this work is we are applying the framework of CALO to measure what is the size of these misallocations and what would happen in a particular country, in this case Argentina, if they if they um eventually remove this, this expression. So if they apply uniform rates somehow and again this is, this is a framework that could be used um in other settings with similar tax databases and, and so on. 5 minutes. Last topic that I want to mention is property tax. Property tax As I mentioned before, it's underutilized. It can help raise revenue equitably. Why? Because real estate is a major repository of wealth, uh, in, in many societies. Historically, Municipalities have applied flat. Proportional tax schedules, even like fees, like a fixed fee, an amount of money. The tax base also varies a lot across municipalities. So it's a tax that I think it's archaic in design and governments haven't really thought about improving their design because it's like they inherited this and then it's very hard to change. And what I, what I think is surprising is that it constant, constant contrast sharply with modern tax tools such as personal income tax or wealth taxes that are progressive in nature. So that to me is uh uh surprising. So what do we do in a recent paper we study a progressive reform in uh Trese Febrero. Uh, it's a large urban, urban municipality in, in Buenos Aires, Argentina. It's characterized by law enforcement and low compliance. So here we have a few of the share of taxpayers. We have the, the, so it's it's a tax that they pay monthly. So that's why on the horizontal axis we have the 12 monthly installments. And you can see that roughly like 50% of the people pay the tax, and it's very polarized. So they either pay the 12 installments or they don't pay it. And this is, I think it's a style fact that would be common in, in many settings. So what do we do in this paper, we study a progressive reform. This is a reform that for political reasons and for equity concerns, the government decided to provide a, um, so the, the schedules which is the blue one, was historically regressive at the beginning and then becoming progressive at the top. They decided to give a tax cut for low-value properties. We are going to call these low-value properties poor. And it was based on a threshold based on the evaluation of the property, so properties valued at 750,000 pesos, less than that, they experienced a VAT cut which is a red line. Those in the middle, no changes, and then at the top there was a VAT, um, a property tax increase. So with this, what do we do? We analyze the effect of making the tax progressive on compliance and revenue, and what we do is we focus on the thresholds, the threshold where there was, there is a tax cut for the poor and the threshold where there is a tax increase for the rich. We analyze the direct effects on compliance and then we also have an information an information experiment where we tell the people what's going on with the other people, and that will become clearer now. So what is the causal effect of making a tax progressive? What we find is for, for poor, so here is a chart where we put the property value on the horizontal axis and the change in tax compliance on the vertical axis. We see that those to the left of the threshold, we call it poor, those to the right are the middle. We see that tax compliance is increasing. For those who received a tax cut. For the rich, we see the opposite, different threshold, those to the right are the rich, we see the tax compliance decreases. We have some elasticities in the paper, but I want to spend time on that. And then for the cross rate effects, what do I mean by cross rate effects? We have an experiment where we tell randomly some groups in the, some poor people we tell that the rich are not paying more taxes. And then for rich people, we tell, for some of them randomly we tell them that the poor are paying less taxes. When we do that, we follow, um, we measure the, the changing, so for the poor, what we do is we measure the effect of receiving a letter on tax compliance. What we compare is a letter, so it's within the poor group, some are receiving a letter just saying your taxes are lower, and the other group is your taxes are lower and the rich are paying more. When we do that. Those that also learned that the tax became more progressive, there is like an extra effect on tax compliance over and above the direct effect that I showed before. And then for the middle and the and the rich, it's, it's, it's less clear but we see that there is a little bit of uh a decrease for, for the rich. So when, when the rich learn that the tax became more And that the tax decrease for the poor, there is an extra negative effect on tax compliance, uh, for that group. So with this um I'm gonna stop. So this uh food, I think I, I believe I provided food for thought um based on the several illustrations that I provided today. I wanna argue or what I argue in the talk is that domestic resource mobilization is at the policy data crossroads and the data analytics can help pave the way for better tax policy and administrations. Um, modest aside, I believe we are very good at this here at the bank and, and please reach out to us at the and Data, um. To, to, to discuss this more. And the last thing that I want to mention is that what I mentioned in this talk is just really scratching the surface. It's the tip of the iceberg. There is a flagship report we are producing on domestic resource mobilization with Pierre Mavis, Oyebola and many collaborators and, uh, Tiago and so on, and I, I, uh, want you to stay tuned because this is gonna come out soon. So thank you so much and looking forward to the discussion. Yeah it's Great. So thanks, thanks very much for inviting me. Um, this is, uh, really a, a pleasure. I think that we're all super happy to have this kind of evidence, uh, provided, um, as we're all interested in. How, um, how, how to leverage some of these powerful digital tools and data to help governments not only administer taxes better and more effectively but also to see to what extent that, uh, that new data and and analytics can improve the, the, uh, range of implementable policies in a way that both efficiency and equity are improved. Um, so, uh, what I'm going to argue is that res despite this, uh, recent growth in, in evidence, we, we are very far away from what we really need. Um, there's a huge agenda, I think, on the, on the horizon on this, and I, I, I think I would, um, Uh, argue that a lot of the questions that policymakers really wanna know have to do with how economic agencies agents will respond to policy changes. So how will consumers respond? How will suppliers respond when it's, uh, about VAT, um, and, and to some extent that behavioral response partly depends on how much they know. But it also partly depends on the capacity of uh government government to inform and also to what extent the government is able to, you know, administer in a way that um takes advantage of all the data analy analytics that that exist so there's a I think a lot of questions around those behavioral responses on both the supplier and, and, uh, if it's if it's a personal income tax, it'll be also on. Uh, or corporate income tax on, on, on the economic agents sort of feeling this pain. So, um, the work that. Uh, Dario just showed us, uh, um, with a kind of an example on, uh, Argentina for VAT is really interesting. Um, it's similar to, to what I mean, other, other places have found, but more importantly, what is interesting is the, the unintended consequences, right? So in the case of, uh, Argentina and Mexico there was very little reduction in prices, no reduction in prices in the case of Peru. So a lot of, a lot of the reduction in VAT was pocketed by the suppliers. Um, there is some evidence that in fact, uh, inequality increased as opposed to you know, declining, which was part of the intent of the policy, um, and this again has to do with the behavior of, of firms profiteering, uh, particularly where low, low income households shop. Um, there's no discernible income on sales or employment in the case of Peru, and there's some evidence of reducing compliance in the case of, um. Uh, uh, again, of Peru, um, so my question with this and, and particularly in the context of very tight budgets in most of our developing countries is could we expect the opposite if increases in VAT were on the table, um, and I don't think, I don't think that that's necessarily the case and so this kind of asymmetry of VAT going up or down is, is really a testable question. Um, there's, uh, some really, uh, nice evidence from Mexico from the 2014 reform which had an increase in VAT, uh, where, uh, Pierre Bachas found, um, that, uh, the pass through is, uh, in formal firms is actually about 77%. Uh, obviously no pass through in more informal settings, um, but this is sort of one country, one data point, not clear if this is the case for lower and low, low middle income countries. It's also unclear that, um, what, what it means for revenue and equity and efficiency, particularly when, um, taking into account the. The fact that firms or or consumers can switch very easily from shopping in a, in a modern modern formal store to an informal store, that elasticity of moving your choice of where you shop is especially important in very low income settings where informality is the norm. Um, it's not, not uncommon to see high income people buying food in, let's say, um, street markets and, and things in places like that, um, in developing countries, so that elasticity is, is important to figure out. Second, to what extent would, uh, VATCIT integration help? Some tax administration offices are now able to link. Up sort of VAT receipts with their corporate income tax receipts and they may have an incentive to become more formal. So the question is how much of the reduction in compliance in sort of traditional stores that are formal but potentially have a large informal, um, sort of impetus. Uh, I always think about in my own country in Bolivia you can. You, you go to a formal store, you'll get asked, do you wanna pay, do you want a receipt or no? And that determines the price, right? You, you, you, and you can negotiate how much of the VAT savings goes to the, to the supplier and, and how much goes to the consumer who, who stop, who doesn't pay, pay it. So that kind of negotiation is also interesting. Um. Um, and then another question is how, what would, what can we expect from eliminating VAT exemptions? So most countries are not necessarily considering increasing VAT, but rather getting rid of exemptions. This, uh, figure comes from, from some work done across multiple countries around the world using our fiscal microsimulation modeling. Um, which essentially shows that VAT exemptions are largely going to the top of the distribution, mostly because, of course, the rich consume more. So it's not surprising that those benefits go to the top more than the bottom. But in addition to, to that simple fact, you also have, there is also some evidence that larger firms are much more likely to claim, claim VAT exemptions or reduced rates. Um, then, then, uh, say smaller or more informal firms, more not informal, but you know, smaller, smaller stores where, which is where a lot of the, uh, poorer population potentially is, uh, consuming. So there's good reason to believe that eliminating these uh VATT exemptions will improve efficiency. It'll raise revenue, etc. It's very politically difficult to do as, uh, Dario was mentioning it, but, um, but. The, the, you know, one could do some simulations. We did some simulations showing that, oh, if you eliminate these exemptions and then you give households, um, you know, safety nets or some other form of mitigating mechanism, you'd, you'd be better off. You'd reduce inequality, you'd reduce poverty, etc. We, We often do these things to justify some of the the the policies, but actually impacts are are uncertain because we don't know how these kinds of reforms will affect compliance. They're hard to to estimate, um, will suppliers become more, you know, be willing to do, uh, uh. Capture some of that additional or uh revenue to what extent will, uh, consumers decide if you eliminate exemptions, will they decide to go to the informal markets instead? How much can you really expect in terms of revenue collections? How much can you really expect from, um, those changes? And then it's unclear how, how the enforcement will actually affect equity and efficiency, because the enforcement on its own, even if you didn't no change in tax policy, also has a distributional impact. And that again is unclear. We don't know, so many questions there. Um, PIT, um, Dario showed a very nice example from Honduras. Um, I think there are several examples around in the literature that really focus on the fact that, uh, high income earners can play around. And, uh, with their either with their undistributed profits or the capital income and wealth, uh, so that they can uh sort of declare it in whatever is most convenient to them. So tax a lots of tax avoidance happening at the top. And, um, I guess a big question for all of us is to what extent, um, do international information sharing and coordination. Policies help particularly in low income countries that have limited capacities, um, so, and how, how, what is the best way? What is the lowest hanging fruit when you're dealing with a low capacity country to actually make use of some of these, um, you know, innovations in international coordination. And then finally, um, with respect to the work that he presented on, on turnover taxes, even though he was presenting mostly for subnational, I would argue that in a lot of countries, 2/3 of countries in Africa have some form of simplified tax regimes for SMEs. These are turnover taxes for small medium enterprises. Um, and here there are a lot of questions that would, you know, that have to do more with how these, um. These turnover taxes are actually implemented and the and the potential efficiency and equity uh considerations that come out of it. So for instance, a lot of, um, these, uh, uh, turnover taxes don't have a tax-free threshold. So you have even very subsistence level firms being liable for these turnover taxes, um, even though they're, you know. They really should be exempt, um, and in countries where they do have a little bit of progressivity, um, at the end of the day, the, the, the, the effective rates are not progressive partly because the lowest income people don't necessarily have the information about what's what the tax policy really is and how to, uh, how to, you know, benefit from, from, from that. The sort of some that progressivity and then finally, uh, on the, on the property taxes, I think it's really interesting that you're showing the differences in compliance between poor and non-poor and I think more generally there's a lot of room here to do kind of a combination of information. Between what's available from administrative sources, but also, uh, surveys on, on how people are perceiving, um, changes in policy and therefore how their, uh, willingness to pay taxes changes over time. With that, let me end. Thank you. Thanks, Gabriela, and thanks, Dario for the presentation. Um, Um, let's open it up for Q&A again. If you have a question online, please raise your hand, and I can call on you. Um, if you're in the room, please, uh, could you go to the mic? Um, just you wanna line up behind the microphone. Hi, uh, very nice presentation, Dario. I have a question for you. So if I understood correctly, there's a lot of evidence within Argentina and across countries that this pass through of the VAT can be almost full, can be 50%. So do we know what drives these differences and connected to what uh the discussion, uh, uh, it was being discussed, the role of information, no? So is it like in. Big retailers is easier to, you know, like accompany these policies with information campaigns of OK, we're removing this tax so you should expect this uh pass through or this cut in this percent or informational campaigns of incentivizing shopping around, you know, you should be expecting this to, you know, cost this much so look out for, you know, so what do we know about uh how to, you know, implement these, uh, policies along with other campaigns? So let's take a couple, um. Hey Dario, uh, indeed great presentation. I definitely learned a lot, um, I was wondering, uh, in terms of like taxes. I mean there's also some taxes that try to. Overcome some inherent market failures that are there thinking of, you know, VAT taxes on uh products with high sugar content or carbon taxation or congestion taxes so given yeah that they try to, um, you know, overcome some market failures, is there some work or should we try to focus more on taxes that are less distorting by itself and maybe go more towards an efficient market equilibrium? Thanks. And then Um, well, again, thank you again for, for a very interesting, it's a, it's really a nice summary of all this work that that that you and the colleagues have done. I just have a comment regarding the subnational exactly property taxes, and you mentioned how you're surprised why not as many because data is there fortunately I have to disagree there is really not there. I mean not enough of it, uh, in, in most countries unfortunately. It's very difficult to get um micro level data on property taxation uh because um. There is no consolidated database where you can get it or then you have to travel around the country, you know, search by municipality, uh. Unless you focus on one, but the, the reason why is it's important to actually have a country level kind of scope of data for, for property tax is that it's not really only, I mean, the, um, we claim that it's actually equitable tax but like all these over the last decades studies have shown that it's, it's regressive. And there are different reasons why that is. One of them is that, um, theoretically it's an, it's a progressive tax, of course it depends on how you see it. Is it an excise? Is it, uh, it's a tax on income, but also, um, depending on the structure you may end up with actually a regressive tax, um, and you show the example of Argentina where they had a tax break on the lower value properties and I would be very curious to see if you could do the similar study in about 5 to maybe 10 years. And see what happens because what theory suggests is that such a policy is gonna allocate income toward the lower income housing where you're gonna have now higher income individuals owning lower income housing where it's gonna increase their value and lower income individuals are not gonna be able anymore to afford actually low income housing. So, um, uh, this is the, the, the limitation in, I mean, besides of all the issues that the policy design actually can change so for property tax is really important. What is only progressivity also progressivity in the medium and long term. And another thing is for property taxes if no other taxes and, uh, implementation is here crucial because in addition to just tax design you're gonna have what is gonna impact progressivity is also simply. Administration like you're gonna have tax assessment in some countries but I'm sorry pro property value assessment it's gonna be more favorable for high income house. In fact, uh, there's some a study I from Italy I can share with you that shows that high income actually properties are under assessed relative to lower income. So all these different, I mean certainly it's a very, um, it's very useful but just ideas if you have a chance to do it would be great to have such evidence. Thank you. OK, let's take one more question and then I'll get back to you. Thanks. Great presentation Dario. Um, I was wondering about how to think about the political economy which came out throughout your presentation. It seemed like there was some lack of clarity, I mean, uh, not in your presentation, but in the political economy literature there's no clear explanation for what, how to think about even sort of tax revolts or recent movements we've seen in Africa and for example, in Kenya when a tax reform was announced, people were on the streets were they on the streets because it's populist, they don't understand. Uh, that taxes are important, or is it that something else is it lack of trust that the government will use the taxes well? So with that sort of general background, I wanted to ask you two specific questions one. Uh, what is the role of the, the data revolution in addressing some of these political economy constraints? So for example, when you present the evidence on the lack of pass through of a reduction in the VAT, does that change? Is it surprising to the tax administrators? And does it lead them to think about changing the policy or communicating to if the demand came was a populist demand from poor lower income people, does that help them communicate that look we tried using this and now we understand from all this nice big data, uh, that it didn't work as intended and second on the other side of the politics of elite capture, maybe this is really a naive idealistic question, but. Is there any talk about moving towards something that's more like a lump sum tax? I mean, some of the top brackets you're presenting data on are as few as 500 firms, or, you know, 80,000 people. Um, and some of the really high brackets are the ones who are offshoring presumably we kind of know who are these big entities. Uh, has there been any discussion of, you know, just more lump sum taxation per head, uh, and what are the, what is the political economy of elite capture on the top? Like, presumably there's a lot of resistance to that kind of a movement, anything written on that. Thanks so much. Thanks. A lot of wide ranging questions. Go ahead, Darryl. I'm gonna start. Hi, yeah, I will start from the, the end all the way. I think it's easier. I, yeah, I think Mavi is sitting behind you would be better equipped to, to, but I think those are very, very good points, um, I think you know what I know is a lump sum tax like a poll tax that Margaret Thatcher implemented in the UK. It was complicated, so I think I lump some I wouldn't see a space for such a policy, um. On the VAT cards communication, I think it's key. I think there is a disconnect. Uh, between research and and policy action, and there should be more communication in the sense like policymakers should try to communicate better like the fears that er. Gabriela was showing with the, the, the incidence of eliminating tax expenditure, that's key to communicate the policy reform. I don't really know how to do it. Argentina has done it successfully in some cases like the, the tax amnesty, they were, they were great communicating that like to, you know, entice participation. I feel like that that was one of the, one of a good example of what countries could do. That's something I, I discussed in the paper like this part of the political economy, but I'm not an expert on that topic. I think it's very relevant, but I wouldn't do enough justice to that. Um, Violetta, thank you for your comment. That's great. I think I, I disagree on the part that There is a lot of data, and it requires a lot of entrepreneur, entrepreneurship, right? And let me give you an example of um Juan Luis Caboni who works with us. He used to work at a in a municipality in Argentina, that didn't, they didn't have any data analytics. There was, you know, a computer, data was sitting there, so he took the computer that they needed capacity. He arranged all the files, monthly files together, and they build the data and now they are using it. So I feel like every municipality has this type of data it's just a matter of going knocking the door, trying to be proactive and try to make progress. That's that's what I would like to do and I agree with you that you know these sometimes are regressive, we don't really know, we need, you know, we have data from 5 municipalities from Brazil, Colombia, Argentina. We put them together, we can get like an overview of what's going on in Latin America, and I think that's feasible. On the market failures and I think it's it's a very good point. I think the talk was more focused on, I agree that externalities. Can be, can be justified. Lower rates on goods that create externalities either positive or negative. Uh, or higher rates on those with negative externalities that those are valid points and I I didn't focus too much on the talk on that. Um Claudia on the. Marketing in large stores that, that's very interesting. The way I think about this is Walmart is a company that they comply with taxes, so you know when you go to a supermarket you always get a ticket. So these type of places they typically use at least in Argentina they use it they use these policies as a marketing device, so they all of a sudden they put no VAT because there is like an extra effect on the month. So if you, if you don't put the sign, the amount would be lower, in other words. I think supermarkets are fully aware of that. It's different in independent grocery stores where tax evasion might be 50% and, and it's like Gabriela was saying, you know, you go there and you invite the, the, the owner to evade, you say, is it the same price if I pay in cash, you're saying can we share the incidence of the of the evaded tax. I think that there's a little bit different, the marketing, so I don't, I don't know how much they want to communicate this to consumers because to begin with, they are not paying. Um, or they are evading 50% of the tax. Um This could be one of the reasons that explains partial path through, but there are different explanations. One of them is imperfect competition, and I believe that the mechanisms, we don't understand them very well, and there is space to do more research on this. And then going to Ari, thank you very much for taking the time to to read the papers and, and yeah, and think about these problems. I think it's a It's very interesting, your observation on the inequality. I don't think we, we talk much about that in the, in the paper. Uh, in, in Argentina, um, I also think it's very important to measure the elasticity of switching across stores. We don't have any evidence of that, it's hard to get, but it's, it's an important topic that people should be thinking more carefully about. Um, Eliminating VAT exemptions, yeah, totally, that, that's so important, it seems that there is some professional consensus that many countries that's one of kind of a low hanging fruit, politically very costly, but to improve a second best tax such as the VAT. And it has proven politically very costly like Bangladesh, January 9th, they increased the, they, they motionized the tax rates on 100 items, 1, 10 days later they retracted the decision because they were starting to be protests. I think that that part is, I think it's very exciting, it's something that I. Maybe communication can can help like this type of figures that you show, but another way to compensate with an extra, an additional uh an alternative supplementary program. Um, yeah. So, yeah, that's one reflection. And then for the turnover tax, yeah, I think it's um. It's more prevalent than we think, so local business taxes are prevalent in developed, even in the US there are like 7 states that they have a gross receipt tax, so that's that's the turnover of the US. Tax rates are very low, but um. It's very silent and we don't have enough evidence on this, and yeah, I would like to see more if possible. So yes, with this, I think I'm gonna stop. Great, thank you. Are there, we have time for maybe one or two questions, very, very brief ones. Nice presentation Dario. Uh, a couple of questions on, on the local taxes. Uh, you show the distribution of different, uh, um, sources of the taxation at the local level, but a big chunk of the, the, uh, tax revenue comes from transfer from the federal government that they go and you don't display it, uh, so I don't know how much of the, uh, tax revenue you're capturing with those graphs. And the other, uh, point is you mentioned the thing about mobile money. And the taxation of mobile money. I was wondering when people pay, uh, with mobile devices, are they evading, for example, the, uh, some of the taxes, the VAT tax, for example, and if they can evade, can you get to this point that Gabriela was mentioning whether you can switch between across stores using the mobile payments. Um On the, on the mobile money, they, if there is a VAT or like for instance Uganda or Tanzania, I don't remember, I think it's Uganda, they have excise tax, they have the VAT and then there is like a fee, like, so 3 taxes, they do pay those taxes, the one that I think is more relevant in terms of revenue is the fee that they pay. But otherwise there would be some, some, in some cases there will be some taxes. Sometimes these services, these transactions are not taxed, and I think those are part of the OECD pillar one, if I remember correctly. And then on the local, local government, it's true that from the figures I'm omitting grants and transfers that come from the central government. For provinces, at least in Argentina, that's a big chunk, um, so all revenues could be, but, but still, you know, subnational taxes can be, can represent of the total adding subnational and national taxes, subnational taxes are 20%. Of all the resources that Argentina, so it's a significant amount of the GDP, and it has remained constant over time. So it's not that what is changing is the composition of national taxes, but then the share that they collect their own revenue is relatively constant over time. So it's really the composition, the way they are taxing the different tax bases. And for municipalities it is even more important like municipalities, 40% of the revenue that they get is own revenue, on average, 40% is what they get and the rest is what they, what the, the. The national government transfer to them. So it's even more important for cities. And so I think that's why even from a macro perspective it's really important to understand the consequences. OK, we have one question online uh from Alistair. Do you wanna unmute yourself and ask your question? Uh, but please make it brief because we are running out of time. Alistair. Hi, can you hear me? Yes. Uh fantastic. Thanks, excellent, excellent presentation Dario. I just, we, there was a bit of discussion here about the um about the political economy of the VAT of VAT uh and base broadening VAT reform and getting rid of the, obviously very, very badly targeted uh reduced rates. Um, one issue, It's got quite a bit of attention recently, so for example it's been implemented in Uzbekistan, in one of the regions of Brazil, are these real time back cashback regimes. So I'll be interested in your perspective and Gabriella is also on, The feasibility of these schemes in in in low income countries and middle income countries, particularly where, The countries that you would expect to have the technological capacity to implement these schemes, Would likely also be countries that are able to effectively implement a traditional targeted cash transfer. So I appreciate your views on that, thank you. And we have one more hand up, so I'll just turn it over to Thomas. Kanne, can you unmute yourself? Go ahead. Uh, we can't hear you. Sorry, OK, so I'll turn it back to, to Dario and Gabriela if you have anything to add. Thank you. Yeah, thank you, Alastair. I think it's, um, yeah, in some countries true that like Brazil, Rio Grande do Sul, and then in Pakistan it's. They have the technical ability to have like a VAT cashback program where they do rebates instead of having to use rates, um, I think it's feasible, but I also, I also think it's, uh, we, we shouldn't expect it to be magic, I mean, the devil is in the details, and I think these programs, cashback programs, they should be designed very carefully if they really want to reach the target population, um. But it's, it's true. I have a, I left in the, the slides that will be posted online. I put one in the appendix, where I illustrate the, the example of Argentina with a card called Tartament which is for um. The, the cash transfer recipients. If they pay, they receive the cash transfer in a debit card. If they use a debit card in the in any like supermarket, then there is like a cashback that they get automatically, right? So it's targeted to people that receive a cash like a cash transfer, and then it's, you know, you're really reaching the people that need it most, and it's, it's kind of automatic, so we have the systems to implement that. So those are interesting policies and I'm. I, I, I hope to see much more in the coming years. I, I would second that. I think that, uh, this is one way to get around the political economy difficulty of eliminating tax exemptions. And to the, to the extent that you, if you are a low-income person and you are a beneficiary of the tax transfer system, or sorry, the cash transfer system, so you receive social assistance, there's a means, means test somewhere that says that you, You know, you deserved a break. Um, instead of having to wait for, you know, paying the VAT and then getting, getting cash, um, Through an alternative program you immediately get that um relief tax relief uh in a targeted fashion so it it sort of ticks all the boxes in terms of efficiency. It also gets to the political economy question very quickly um the the issue of course is does the tax administration have the capacity to. Merge essentially the tax administration and the and the social assistance administration databases in order to make that happen and the and and here I would say it's only gonna be the middle income countries that have sophisticated tax authorities sophisticated um social assistance uh registries and and so on and also the other the other um. I guess danger here is that a lot of the social assistance prop uh registries even in upper middle income countries are not going to fully target everyone who's at the bottom of the distribution, right? So there are lots of, uh, leakages and and sort of. People who should potentially be getting that relief that aren't going to be getting relief just because of the eligibility criteria, uh, for that social assistance. So there's that danger that if you have those polls that you're not going to be getting it, those, uh, populations, but I think it it there it's, there's a huge promise here. I think the Brazilian example is beautiful and, and, uh, yeah, hopefully more countries can do more of this. Thank you. Great, thank you very much. Um, thank you everyone for joining. Um, the, just a reminder, the event recording will be, uh, posted online, uh, as well as the, the slides and uh if you wanted to follow up. For those of you who are on the World Bank's intranet. Uh, you can listen to, uh, the AI generated podcast of, of Dario's paper on, uh, uh, tax, uh, VAT tax cuts in Argentina on the DC decoded, uh, podcast series. Um With that, thank you Dario, thank you, Gabriela, um, for that really insightful, um, presentation and, and discussion and thank you all. See you. You know not. Very. No. I.
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In many developing countries, tax policy is often driven more by pragmatism rather than the pursuit of optimal outcomes. Barriers such as informality, low tax capacity, political roadblocks, and limited data analytics often result in inefficient and inequitable tax structures that persist over time.

In this Policy Research Talk delivered on April 7, 2025, World Bank Economist Dario Tortarolo drew on recent research on both national and subnational taxes—including value added taxes (VAT), personal income taxes, wealth taxes, business income taxes, and property taxes— to show how new data-driven approaches are reshaping how governments design and evaluate tax systems in real time, enabling policymakers to move beyond educated guesses toward informed, evidence-based decisions.

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