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00:07 All right.

00:07 Good afternoon,

00:08 everyone.

00:09 Welcome back to the sessions.

00:11 My name is Shamilawe.

00:12 I work for the World Bank,

00:14 and I'm very happy to welcome all of you to our session today

00:18 on norms and other constraints to women's economic inclusion.

00:23 We'll have 4

00:24 really amazing presentations over the next 1 hour.

00:29 Where

00:29 our speakers will tell us about the role of norms,

00:33 the role of networks,

00:34 and the role of neighborhoods

00:36 in limiting access to opportunity for women.

00:39 Uh,

00:40 I will introduce

00:42 each of the four speakers,

00:44 and then they will speak for about 15 minutes or 14 minutes each as they desire.

00:51 And then we'll turn to all of you for questions and answers.

00:54 So our speaker

00:56 who's gonna speak first is Pamela uh Jaquila,

00:59 who's a professor of economics

01:02 at Williams College and a non-resident fellow at the CGD.

01:06 After her will be Anukriti,

01:09 who's a senior economist at the World Bank's Research Group,

01:13 and,

01:13 uh,

01:14 she's doing,

01:15 uh,

01:15 and before joining the bank she was assistant professor

01:18 at Boston College.

01:20 After Anu's presentation we will have Nishit Prakash,

01:24 uh,

01:25 give his talk.

01:26 Nishi is a professor of economics and public policy at Northeastern University

01:31 and

01:32 he has been a visiting

01:33 fellow at Yale,

01:34 Columbia,

01:35 and MIT.

01:37 Uh,

01:38 following Nishit we will have Rachel Heath who will give her talk.

01:41 Rachel is an associate professor in the

01:45 economics department at the University of Washington,

01:48 uh,

01:48 and she did,

01:49 uh,

01:50 I did not know you did a postdoc at the World Bank's research department.

01:53 So

01:54 let's start

01:55 with Pamela,

01:56 but before I start,

01:57 uh,

01:58 handing over you,

01:58 uh,

01:59 the mic to you,

02:00 uh,

02:01 I've been asked that,

02:02 uh,

02:02 for all our online

02:04 viewers.

02:05 You are fully able to participate in the questions and answers uh during the panel.

02:11 Send your questions through YouTube,

02:14 through the LinkedIn live stream,

02:16 or email

02:17 events at CGDev.org.

02:21 And for folks in the room,

02:23 please keep your cell phones and other devices on silent.

02:27 Pamela,

02:27 over to you.

02:33 Here it goes.

02:36 OK,

02:36 hi,

02:37 thank you very much for joining us today.

02:40 Um,

02:40 I,

02:41 it's a real pleasure to be back here at CGD.

02:44 Um,

02:44 so what I'm going to do in this talk is I'm not going to present one specific paper.

02:49 I'm going to talk about,

02:51 uh,

02:52 some work I've done,

02:53 most of it joint with Dave Evans at the IDB,

02:56 uh,

02:56 reviewing the literature on

02:59 early childhood interventions in low and middle income countries.

03:03 And so what I'd like to do today is to talk about

03:06 the intersection.

03:07 Between

03:08 early childhood and the constraints on women

03:12 and gender norms

03:13 and sort of present some

03:15 regularities of that body of literature and talk about how

03:19 they relate to norms within the household and how thinking

03:23 about them in terms of norms within the household can

03:25 change the way that we view the results in this space

03:29 and so I want to start.

03:31 Just to motivate a little bit,

03:32 there are a few things that we know as points of departure.

03:35 So the first is that there is

03:38 tremendous gender inequality both in high income

03:41 countries and in low income countries,

03:44 in the workplace and in the home.

03:46 So

03:47 in both rich and poor countries,

03:48 women are less likely to be in the labor force

03:50 than men in almost every country around the world.

03:53 And for women who do work,

03:54 they often receive lower pay for comparable work.

03:59 And so,

04:00 and this is true,

04:01 you know,

04:01 this varies

04:03 across the income distribution,

04:04 but this is broadly true around the world.

04:07 And it's,

04:07 we know that a big piece of this

04:11 gender gap,

04:12 and this builds on some of the research that we saw this morning,

04:15 a big piece of this gender gap is about women's unequal care work burden in the home.

04:20 So

04:21 women

04:22 do most of the childcare around the world

04:24 and obviously all of the pregnancy and childbirth,

04:28 and they

04:30 that.

04:31 This places constraints on the types of jobs that they can take.

04:34 This places constraints on how focused on work they are

04:38 and on their profitability.

04:39 And again this is true in low income settings and also in high income settings.

04:44 Now at the same time

04:46 we as development economists,

04:48 we know that early childhood,

04:50 which

04:51 includes in most countries a period where children are not yet in

04:55 school,

04:55 is a really critical,

04:57 critically important time for making investments in human capital.

05:01 Contribute to

05:03 your

05:03 ability to learn,

05:05 meet your developmental potential,

05:07 and you know,

05:08 be productive in the workforce throughout your life course.

05:10 And so we are very interested in a broad class of interventions that will get

05:16 that will increase the amount of

05:19 investment in particularly poor and vulnerable

05:21 children's human capital early in life,

05:23 and we know that this,

05:24 the failure to do this can create poverty traps

05:26 both for households and for countries as a whole.

05:29 So this creates this tension where women bear a disproportionate burden

05:34 of care work responsibilities in the home,

05:37 and yet we as development economists actually want

05:39 households to do more with their young children,

05:41 and that can make it,

05:42 that can create problems where we risk exacerbating

05:46 these types of gender inequalities in the name of

05:48 relaxing this poverty trap.

05:50 And so what I want to do today is talk

05:52 a bit about what we've learned from the literature on

05:54 ECD interventions and in particular what we have learned about

05:58 women and about households from that body of work.

06:01 So this is,

06:02 this is a figure from a paper that I

06:05 wrote with Dave Evans and Heather Knauer,

06:06 and it's just showing you the sort of explosion of

06:10 literature.

06:11 Evaluating ECD interventions in low and middle income countries.

06:14 This is growing over time and what's in blue here

06:16 is that

06:18 until quite recently,

06:19 almost all of these evaluations focused exclusively on children.

06:23 So even though when we think about what's going on in early childhood,

06:26 it is

06:27 often

06:28 the households and particularly the mothers who mediate these interventions.

06:32 Make them effective by changing their behavior and investing more in their kids.

06:35 We have until very recently basically ignored

06:38 the impacts of these interventions on women

06:40 and also on

06:42 men in the household and other people in the household.

06:44 This is changing over time though,

06:46 and we increasingly now have enough of a body of work

06:49 that we can start to draw some broad lessons from it.

06:53 So I want to talk about

06:54 3 regularities and a little bit about how we can

06:57 see them in the context of norms within the household.

07:01 So the first regularity,

07:02 the first result that's coming out of this

07:04 literature is about the impacts of center-based childcare.

07:08 So when I talk about center-based childcare,

07:10 I mean both daycare for children kind of ages 0 to 2

07:14 and preschool,

07:16 whether it's academic,

07:17 preschool,

07:17 pre-primary education and

07:19 through the government or informal or private pre-primary.

07:23 So

07:23 there are a couple of regularities that

07:26 from this literature that we can now be pretty confident about

07:30 that we

07:31 would not have known in advance would be true.

07:33 And so the first is that even though there are

07:35 ongoing concerns about the quality of daycare and pre-primary.

07:39 Low and middle income countries,

07:41 in general,

07:42 these types of programs,

07:43 center-based care,

07:44 is good for child development.

07:46 It varies depending on the counterfactual,

07:48 but in broad terms,

07:50 these policies are either weakly good

07:52 or or significantly substantially good for kids.

07:57 This,

07:57 and they also tend to in many contexts increase women's labor supply.

08:03 So this suggests that these types of center-based policies,

08:05 and this came up in the earlier discussion this morning,

08:08 that these types of center-based daycare and

08:10 preschool interventions may be win-win policies,

08:13 but a regularity that's coming out as we build

08:16 the evidence base on these interventions is that,

08:19 uh,

08:20 the impacts on women are not necessarily.

08:23 As large and as consistent as we might expect,

08:25 and one thing that we do seem to see in a lot of contexts,

08:29 a growing number of contexts,

08:30 when we actually look at it,

08:32 is that giving households access to childcare is also

08:35 increasing men's labor force participation and men's income.

08:40 Now this is interesting,

08:42 because it isn't the case that what is

08:44 happening is men are doing less childcare work.

08:49 When the kids go into childcare,

08:50 and the reason we know that's true is that in most of these settings,

08:53 men aren't doing any childcare to begin with,

08:56 OK,

08:56 and so what's happening here

08:58 is that we can think about this in terms

09:00 of some sort of re-optimization within the household,

09:02 but when a household gets access to childcare,

09:04 they often take advantage of it,

09:06 and this changes how all the members of the household allocate their time.

09:10 And this could be good.

09:11 This could be a great,

09:12 you know,

09:13 economic theory could predict that this is

09:14 a re-optimization that is good for everyone,

09:17 but it also raises concerns about whether what is really happening

09:20 is that when women get time freed up from childcare,

09:23 they're just forced to spend it on other domestic tasks that the husbands don't do.

09:28 And so this raises an issue

09:30 that we.

09:31 Only now are being able are able to even think about speaking to,

09:36 which is,

09:37 do these interventions actually make women better off and how do they

09:40 change allocation of tasks and allocation of domestic work within the household

09:44 and the problem in answering this question in theory as we.

09:47 See more and more expansions of childcare,

09:49 we could answer this,

09:50 but most of the time we don't ever look.

09:52 So a vanishingly small number of evaluations of these

09:55 types of interventions actually measure outcomes for men.

09:58 So basically we just don't know what they're doing.

10:01 We don't know what's going on.

10:03 OK,

10:03 so that's

10:04 regularity in puzzle number one.

10:06 I think this is,

10:07 uh,

10:07 so this leads to this question of do these types of interventions,

10:10 which we hope would be win-win,

10:12 actually make

10:13 women better off,

10:14 or are they just being stuck doing other types of domestic work,

10:17 uh,

10:18 once their children are in childcare?

10:21 OK.

10:22 The second point I want to make is

10:24 about another class of early childhood interventions.

10:27 These are,

10:27 uh,

10:28 it's actually two types of interventions,

10:30 group-based parenting classes for women

10:32 and also home visits from child development professionals.

10:35 This is a type of intervention that for a long time

10:38 has been recognized as something that can be very valuable to,

10:42 uh,

10:42 to children,

10:43 to increase the stimulation that they get,

10:45 translating into benefits in terms of their human capital and their income.

10:49 What's interesting when you look at the whole literature,

10:51 all of these evaluations,

10:53 is that there's actually really robust evidence

10:56 that these types of interventions in a

10:58 wide variety of country contexts improve women's

11:01 mental health and their subjective well-being.

11:04 So

11:05 this is something that you know we've seen it,

11:07 we've seen it in South Asia,

11:08 we've seen this in Latin America,

11:10 we've seen this in Africa

11:11 for both home visit interventions and group based parenting classes.

11:16 The question that I ask about this literature,

11:19 why I think this is really interesting is the question of why this is the case.

11:23 So one simple story is that parenting education improves women's self-efficacy

11:28 in terms of how good of a mother they are,

11:30 and that's really great,

11:31 and that could be

11:32 part of the story.

11:33 Or the whole story,

11:34 but what we know is that

11:36 women,

11:37 uh,

11:37 young mothers in many low and middle income countries

11:40 have very low,

11:42 very weak social networks.

11:44 This is particularly true in regions of with

11:46 patrolocal norms and restrictions on women's mobility.

11:50 And if we look,

11:52 I've had conversations with a number of you.

11:54 When we look at the data,

11:55 the rates of depression among young women and

11:58 mothers in low and middle income countries are often

12:00 staggeringly scarily high.

12:02 And so what I think

12:05 could explain this is that these types of interventions that were designed

12:08 to be about improving mothering and parenting and be childhood interventions are.

12:13 Equally valuable as interventions that facilitate the creation

12:16 and the strengthening of women's social networks,

12:19 and I think that's again something that

12:21 we

12:21 don't yet really have the data that would allow us to look at because it

12:25 isn't something we've been looking at as

12:27 an outcome from these types of interventions,

12:29 but it's something,

12:30 a way in which these interventions may be equally effective at outcomes we

12:33 didn't pay attention to at all that they weren't designed to target.

12:37 OK.

12:39 My last regularity uh is about fathers.

12:43 So fathers,

12:45 they're there,

12:46 you know,

12:47 they're instrumental in the in the creation of children,

12:51 and yet when it comes to what they do,

12:53 it's often staggeringly little.

12:55 So there's an interesting and you know I say this

12:58 with all due respect to the fathers in the room,

13:00 including the one who's the father of my children.

13:03 There are many fathers who do lots of things,

13:05 uh.

13:06 But

13:07 there's a rich literature in demography

13:09 and anthropology and economics that shows that

13:11 what's interesting in low and middle income

13:13 country contexts is that when fathers are absent

13:15 there is often surprisingly little impact on child survival and child outcomes,

13:21 and

13:21 the data we have on what what fathers do in terms of early childhood stimulation,

13:26 the best data we have comes from UNICEF's.

13:28 Mixed surveys,

13:29 it shows that fathers do

13:31 very,

13:32 very little engaging with young children.

13:34 They do less than mothers in almost every country in the world.

13:37 They also do less than

13:38 other adults who happen to be around.

13:41 They do very little of this kind of active parenting

13:43 and so recently there have been a number of interventions

13:46 that have tried to change this,

13:47 that have tried to get fathers involved,

13:50 uh,

13:51 and so.

13:52 Uh,

13:54 And so this is,

13:55 I mean this is

13:56 an area where

13:59 until 10 years ago there was,

14:00 I think,

14:01 one

14:02 published evaluation of an intervention

14:05 about parenting that targeted fathers in low and middle income countries.

14:08 The literature has expanded rapidly

14:11 so that now there are,

14:12 you know,

14:13 15 perhaps.

14:14 It's still a very small literature,

14:16 but it's growing very rapidly.

14:18 And we're starting to again see a couple of regularities about it.

14:21 And so the first

14:23 is that it is very difficult to get fathers to even show up for these interventions.

14:28 So for every study

14:30 that successfully engages fathers and changes their parenting knowledge,

14:34 there are 2 studies that got bogged down in the field and never

14:38 got to the results stage because you simply couldn't get dads to come.

14:42 Uh,

14:43 and then the second regularity is that

14:46 a well-designed intervention in the right

14:48 context often can change father's knowledge,

14:52 but that this almost never translates into changes in behavior.

14:56 And so it is

14:58 very,

14:58 very difficult,

14:59 very,

14:59 very costly to get fathers engaged,

15:01 and when we do get fathers engaged,

15:03 what's interesting is we see that

15:05 when we get fathers,

15:06 uh,

15:06 when we change fathers' knowledge,

15:08 it spills over a little bit onto mothers,

15:10 and that can change mother's behavior in some contexts,

15:13 but.

15:14 Fathers' behavior

15:16 is very difficult to move,

15:18 and when we focus on fathers,

15:19 we risk,

15:20 in fact,

15:21 missing an opportunity to engage women

15:23 in what has traditionally been a female dominant dominated space parenting.

15:28 And so

15:29 as this literature grows,

15:31 of course,

15:31 hopefully we will continue to explore

15:34 new types of interventions,

15:36 but for me this raises the question of whether

15:39 we should even be trying to work in this literature,

15:42 whether we should be trying as hard as we are.

15:45 To get fathers more engaged

15:47 and whether if we do so that's actually constructive or whether we risk

15:51 bringing fathers and their opinions and their uh you know unequal gender norms

15:57 into the space of parenting which has traditionally been the domain of women.

16:01 So for me these are three different

16:03 puzzles about regularities we see in the literature

16:08 that.

16:10 Are somewhat surprising,

16:11 but we can see them in the context of unequal norms within the household.

16:15 These are questions that we

16:17 have the potential to answer.

16:18 So there's a huge,

16:20 a huge set of evaluations,

16:22 and to the,

16:23 to some extent some of these questions are things that one could go

16:25 back and answer if you looked at the data in the right way,

16:27 if you looked.

16:28 For the right types of heterogeneity,

16:30 but we haven't answered yet,

16:32 uh,

16:32 and hopefully moving forward as we continue to

16:35 focus on early childhood as a really important domain

16:39 for development interventions,

16:40 we'll be better able to try to

16:41 go into it with this model in mind of unequal norms in the household

16:47 and women's,

16:48 uh,

16:49 women's the barriers they face in

16:51 building their social networks and exerting autonomy

16:53 and think about,

16:54 uh.

16:55 How that would translate into the set of outcomes that we measure and

16:59 how that changes the way we think these interventions are likely working.

17:02 OK,

17:03 I will stop there.

17:04 Thank you very much.

17:06 Thank you.

17:08 I know I would too.

17:17 I'm not sure if this is moving.

17:20 It'll show up,

17:21 it'll show up.

17:25 It's quite a delay.

17:27 15 seconds.

17:30 That is.

17:31 Thanks Pam for that segue and now we're going to move

17:33 to a slightly different aspect of gender equality which is,

17:37 uh,

17:37 women's access to social networks.

17:39 So

17:40 you know we all know that social networks are significantly important for various,

17:44 you know,

17:45 dimensions of well-being.

17:46 So it's,

17:46 you know,

17:47 we all know that we,

17:48 we get a lot of information about jobs,

17:51 about business opportunities.

17:52 From our networks,

17:54 you know,

17:54 they

17:56 help us smooth consumption,

17:57 they insure us,

17:58 and these are especially important in countries and

18:00 contexts which have you missing markets or missing

18:05 institutions.

18:05 So today I'm going to focus on

18:08 a low and middle income country which is India,

18:10 where I have some research on women's social networks.

18:13 And what the literature has shown us is that

18:15 women typically have fewer social connections than men,

18:18 and especially when you look at their social connections outside the household.

18:22 So,

18:22 and if you look at interactions that women have with other people on

18:26 more private and typically stigmatized topics such

18:29 as family planning and reproductive health,

18:31 these interactions become even smaller.

18:33 Um,

18:34 and,

18:34 and this combined with the fact that there's a significant homorpholy by gender,

18:38 by which I mean that women tend to have connections

18:41 with other women and men tend to have connections with other

18:44 men,

18:45 then puts women at sort of a double disadvantage in terms of access to networks,

18:49 access to information,

18:50 and so on.

18:52 So

18:52 what we do in,

18:53 uh,

18:54 uh,

18:54 you know,

18:55 so,

18:55 so let me,

18:56 before I go to the two papers that I'm going to talk about,

18:58 give you a little bit of context since I'm going to talk about women in India.

19:01 Um,

19:02 so this is probably not a surprise to this audience that women in India are

19:06 significantly constrained as far as mobility is concerned.

19:09 So if you look at data from demographic health.

19:12 Surveys,

19:12 a very

19:13 high percentage of women report,

19:15 especially married women,

19:16 that they are not allowed to visit places outside the home alone,

19:20 so they always have to have somebody accompany them,

19:22 and you know there's some numbers here,

19:24 so 60%,

19:25 for instance,

19:25 are not allowed to go alone to the market,

19:27 uh,

19:28 health facility,

19:28 or places outside the

19:30 the village or community.

19:32 And this is correlated with the fact that a lot of them practice,

19:36 you know,

19:36 covering their head and faces through Pha and Kunat.

19:40 They are not engaged with the labor market,

19:42 so there's significantly,

19:43 uh,

19:44 you know,

19:44 large gender gaps in labor force participation,

19:47 and then that act basically means that women are less

19:50 likely to go outside of the home to even work.

19:53 You might say that we have access to digital technology,

19:56 so maybe women can engage with other people through phones,

19:59 but if you look at the mobile gender gap in India,

20:02 it's also quite high.

20:03 So in urban areas women are more likely to obviously have phones,

20:05 but

20:06 overall you know only 33% of Indian women have access to a phone.

20:10 So this makes for a very socially isolated existence

20:15 and.

20:15 Can obviously have negative consequences which I'm going to talk about.

20:19 Uh,

20:19 one thing that I hear a lot about,

20:21 uh,

20:21 women's social networks is access to self-help

20:24 groups or other sort of collectives.

20:26 Uh,

20:26 while that's a very important way in which women can engage with other people,

20:30 especially other women,

20:31 uh,

20:31 if you look at the data,

20:33 only 20% of women say that they are part of a group or a collective.

20:37 So while that's a promising.

20:38 Avenue that really does not serve

20:39 all women

20:41 and uh lastly,

20:42 the interactions that women do have with other people are heavily regulated,

20:47 so especially family members like their husbands

20:49 or mothers-in-law that I'm going to talk about a lot more in detail

20:53 are regulating who women talk to and whether they

20:56 even have access to places outside the home.

20:58 So for instance,

20:59 22% of women.

21:00 In the demographic Health Survey of India reported that they

21:03 are not permitted to even meet their female friends,

21:06 right,

21:06 so

21:06 this is a context,

21:08 and this is more so in rural India,

21:09 maybe in certain parts of India,

21:11 and so it's not,

21:12 you know,

21:12 everywhere,

21:13 but it does tell us that there is a significant degree of social isolation

21:17 and now what the consequences of that are,

21:20 how can we correct it is something that I'm going to talk about.

21:24 So,

21:24 uh,

21:25 you know,

21:26 so why,

21:26 you know,

21:27 of course we can see that this is problematic,

21:28 but the context that I'm going to talk about today

21:31 is women's access to family planning and reproductive health services,

21:34 and that's a very

21:36 heavily gendered sort of topic because

21:38 even though family planning is important for both men and women in this context,

21:42 access to family planning is especially more,

21:45 it's considered more a woman's sort of job to,

21:47 you know,

21:47 figure out whether to use family planning or not,

21:50 uh,

21:50 so you know some people say that OK,

21:51 women may not have access to their own.

21:53 But what about their husbands,

21:54 right?

21:55 So their husbands are well connected and maybe that helps.

21:57 So while it's true that yes,

21:58 that can help,

21:59 but when you talk about these gendered

22:01 sort of topics,

22:02 there is very little interaction between men and women.

22:05 So if men don't talk to other women about family planning and reproductive health,

22:09 then it's unlikely that that information is going to

22:11 spread through husbands and go to their wives,

22:13 right?

22:14 So

22:14 this can have very severe negative consequences for

22:18 for women's information even about family planning

22:21 or even access to family planning.

22:23 And uh another uh sort of so husband

22:25 networks in that sense are not a perfect substitute

22:27 and

22:28 the importance of family members,

22:30 as will become clearer in uh in a slide

22:32 is also very important here because these family members,

22:35 as I said,

22:36 can be barriers or enablers,

22:38 and if they are barriers then that can.

22:39 Of,

22:40 you know,

22:40 be an additional

22:42 and if they have reasons to constrain women from going outside the house because of,

22:45 let's say,

22:46 norms about women's mobility

22:48 or because they have different preferences or incentives to

22:52 prevent women from going out,

22:53 then that can sort of,

22:54 you know,

22:54 exacerbate the problem that I'm talking about.

22:58 So,

22:58 uh,

22:58 I'm going to share some findings from,

23:01 uh,

23:01 a project that is the Jaunpur Social Network Study,

23:04 uh,

23:05 which we conducted along with my co-authors,

23:07 uh,

23:08 Kalina Here Almanza at UIUC

23:10 and Mahesh Kara at Boston University,

23:13 and we basically went to,

23:15 uh,

23:15 one of the Indian states which is Uttar Pradesh.

23:17 It's the most populated state in India,

23:19 uh,

23:19 as some of you know,

23:21 uh,

23:21 it's,

23:22 if we only looked at population,

23:23 it would be the 5th largest.

23:24 Largest country in the world if it were a country,

23:26 so this is a very big part of the world,

23:29 and we collected data from 28 villages in Jaunpur,

23:33 and we surveyed 671 women

23:36 who were,

23:36 and we had certain criteria we adopted,

23:39 so these had to be married women,

23:41 uh,

23:41 relatively young because we were talking about family planning,

23:43 so 18 to 30 years old,

23:45 and they had to have at least one child at

23:47 baseline because otherwise family planning take up is very low.

23:50 And we collected data on women's social interactions

23:54 and so we we knew that women would

23:56 obviously engage with their husbands about family planning

23:59 and potentially also their mothers-in-law,

24:01 so we asked them about

24:03 people other than these two individuals who they engage with on various topics.

24:08 So

24:08 you'll hear me say something called general peers.

24:10 So these are.

24:11 The people that women engage with on any sort of issue,

24:15 for instance,

24:15 children's illness,

24:16 schooling,

24:16 health,

24:17 work,

24:17 or financial support,

24:18 so these are just people that you talk to about

24:21 various things.

24:22 And then we also specifically asked about

24:24 close peers because it's a more private topic

24:26 about women,

24:27 about people who they talk to about fertility,

24:30 family planning,

24:30 and reproductive health.

24:32 And what we find is that in both these

24:34 dimensions our sample women were very highly socially isolated,

24:39 so an average woman in our sample said she only engages with two other people

24:44 other than her husband and mother-in-law about anything,

24:47 and this is two people in the entire district where she lives,

24:49 right?

24:50 So this is contrary to the image we might have that all women have,

24:53 you know,

24:53 many other females.

24:54 Friends,

24:54 that's not the case.

24:55 Uh,

24:55 and if you focus on close peers,

24:57 so these like people with whom you have these private conversations,

25:01 that becomes even less.

25:02 So just one person on average.

25:04 In fact,

25:04 one third of our sample said that they do not have any close peers in their district,

25:09 and 22%,

25:10 uh,

25:11 uh,

25:11 don't have any close peers anywhere irrespective of your district or elsewhere.

25:17 The other characteristics we found was that most of the people

25:20 that they did speak to tend to be their relatives,

25:22 right?

25:22 So these could be

25:23 they may either live inside the household

25:25 or maybe outside people like sisters-in-law.

25:27 So sisters-in-law tend to be quite important,

25:30 especially in this context,

25:31 and again,

25:32 almost everyone,

25:33 in fact,

25:34 100% of their social connections were other women,

25:37 um,

25:37 all of them were from the same religion

25:39 and 94% belong to the same caste.

25:42 So there's a lot of homophily by gender,

25:43 religion,

25:44 and caste in this context.

25:48 So the first paper we wrote from our baseline

25:50 data was about mothers-in-law and whether they have any

25:54 influence on women's access to social networks.

25:57 So what we find is that women who co-reside with their mothers-in-law

26:00 have 20% fewer close peers

26:03 in the village and 37 fewer close peers outside the household,

26:07 right?

26:08 And so this is a correlation,

26:09 and we also find that co-residence with mother-in-law significantly reduced.

26:14 Uses women's ability to access places outside the home,

26:17 so which is consistent with the fact that

26:19 you know they don't have access to networks.

26:21 Uh,

26:21 we did not find any such influence of fathers-in-law or sisters-in-law,

26:25 uh,

26:25 so it's not just that,

26:26 you know,

26:26 you have in-laws who prevent you.

26:28 So

26:28 mother-in-law in some in this context,

26:30 which I think is not surprising to South Asians,

26:33 uh,

26:33 is,

26:33 is a significant barrier,

26:35 uh,

26:36 and we also then,

26:37 you know,

26:37 try to sort of this is a correlation,

26:39 but we try to in the papers.

26:40 Show that this is actually a causal result

26:43 and then we were curious about why is

26:46 it that mothers-in-law are this restrictive influence.

26:49 So in the context of family planning,

26:50 what we find is that it has to do with the

26:53 discordance in the fertility preferences of

26:55 the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law.

26:56 So if the mother-in-law wants her daughter-in-law to

26:59 have more children than the daughter-in-law wants,

27:01 we find that this negative influence is

27:04 stronger

27:05 if the mother-in-law approves.

27:06 Disapproves of family planning,

27:08 then this negative influence is stronger,

27:10 and if the husband is away,

27:11 then again we find that this is stronger,

27:13 right?

27:13 So what this tells us is that the mother-in-law is worried about

27:17 the daughter-in-law

27:19 adopting family planning or learning family planning

27:22 contrary to what she wants her to do,

27:23 and then as a result she prevents her from

27:26 accessing people or you know places outside the home.

27:29 Now this is a problem because

27:31 in this context we have a high.

27:32 Unmet need for family planning.

27:34 So in our sample,

27:35 half of the women said that they don't want to have any more children,

27:38 but only 19% were using a method of family planning.

27:42 So

27:43 essentially what this means is that women who live with

27:46 their mother-in-law then have fewer close peers outside the household

27:50 are then less likely to visit places outside the home,

27:52 family planning clinics,

27:54 and use methods of modern contraception.

27:56 So that was the first result we find.

27:59 And then

28:00 what we did subsequently was design a randomized

28:03 control trial where we wanted to see how

28:06 can we circumvent this uh this negative influence

28:09 of the mother-in-law and expand women's ability to access

28:14 or use the support of their peers to access places outside the home.

28:17 So what we did was we,

28:20 we had an RCT where we split the sample into 3 groups.

28:23 So one group was the control group,

28:25 and then the remaining women.

28:27 Were given access to a voucher for family planning at a local clinic,

28:31 right?

28:31 So,

28:32 so

28:33 let me first describe the own voucher group,

28:35 what we call.

28:35 So own voucher group basically gets a voucher which enables,

28:38 gives them ₹2000 or $30 worth of family planning services.

28:43 They can use it for a period of 10 months at a local clinic.

28:46 And

28:47 in addition,

28:48 the second treatment group got the same voucher,

28:50 but also we told them that if you brought a friend to the clinic

28:54 that.

28:55 Friend will also become eligible to receive the same voucher,

28:57 right,

28:58 so basically the difference,

28:59 so in both cases the treated woman is getting exactly

29:02 the same incentive to go to the family planning clinic,

29:06 but in one case she's also able to leverage this friend voucher

29:10 to incentivize someone else to go with her,

29:12 right?

29:12 So we did not restrict who she can bring

29:15 with her to the clinic,

29:16 but

29:16 given that this is the context we're working in,

29:19 we think it's mainly going to be young women who are in need of family planning.

29:24 So what we find is that both vouchers

29:27 increased likelihood of visiting a family planning clinic,

29:30 so clearly financial incentives in this case or financial constraints matter,

29:35 and in both cases we find that they're more

29:37 likely to visit without their husbands and mothers-in-law,

29:40 right,

29:40 so,

29:40 so it reduces their dependence on them

29:42 to access the family planning clinic.

29:45 However,

29:45 we find,

29:46 and which we were quite happy to see,

29:48 is that the Bring a friend voucher was significantly more successful

29:52 than the own voucher for women whose mother-in-law

29:55 was more opposed to family planning at baseline.

29:58 So this suggests that having this ability to take a friend along enabled these

30:03 women to overcome opposition from their mothers-in-law

30:05 and access places outside the home.

30:08 Um,

30:08 in fact,

30:09 the own voucher,

30:10 which is typically what family planning programs do,

30:12 uh,

30:13 was completely ineffective for these women.

30:15 So without the support of this other peer to go with

30:18 to the family planning clinic,

30:19 they were not able to access it.

30:21 Uh,

30:22 and

30:22 you know,

30:23 consistent with this,

30:23 we find that modern method use and,

30:25 uh,

30:26 pregnancy rates also decreased for women who received the bring a friend,

30:29 uh,

30:29 voucher.

30:32 In addition,

30:32 so since the paper was also trying to improve women's access to social connections,

30:37 we find that our Bring a Friend voucher was

30:40 able to increase women's number of social connections,

30:43 especially those outside her home.

30:45 So basically what it meant was

30:47 if you already had some friends,

30:49 it improved your engagement with them

30:51 because now you maybe are more likely to talk to them about family planning.

30:55 You have this voucher,

30:56 or if you did not have any suitable peers,

30:59 you could go to a neighbor

31:01 and tell them about this and maybe in the process of

31:03 this form a social connection with them and discuss family planning.

31:06 So we do find that this effect is entirely driven by the bring a friend voucher,

31:10 which suggests that because even own voucher women could have done that,

31:14 you know,

31:14 but since they did not have anything to offer to the peer,

31:17 it was less effective.

31:19 Um,

31:20 and then lastly,

31:21 uh,

31:22 we also find consistent with the,

31:24 uh,

31:24 previous literature that having more peers

31:27 did improve,

31:28 uh,

31:28 women's,

31:29 uh,

31:29 stigma about family planning,

31:31 right?

31:31 So if peers can provide support,

31:32 for instance,

31:33 to counter stigma related to mental health

31:35 in a similar manner,

31:36 what we find is that

31:38 Bring a Friend voucher enabled women

31:40 to reduce the stigma they have about access to family planning.

31:45 Uh,

31:45 so what does this tell us about policy and research?

31:48 So first of all,

31:49 what we found in the process of writing this paper that

31:52 we really do not have much data on women's social networks.

31:55 So typically when we collect this,

31:56 it's at the household level,

31:57 uh,

31:58 or you may pick one person,

31:59 the head of the household,

32:00 and ask,

32:01 uh,

32:01 typically it's a him about the,

32:03 you know,

32:03 people they are connected to,

32:05 uh,

32:05 and so I have some work ongoing work with Ishani where we're trying to.

32:08 See what is the global cross country evidence on this,

32:11 but I think it's very,

32:12 uh,

32:12 you know,

32:13 important for us maybe to utilize these large data set,

32:16 uh,

32:16 that like DHS and so on to,

32:18 to add maybe a few simple questions that

32:20 can tell us more about women's social networks.

32:22 But putting that aside,

32:23 I think what this paper also tells us is that

32:26 uh

32:27 that we need to think about ways in which we can expand women's ability to.

32:31 Interact with other people.

32:33 Yes,

32:33 women's groups are one such option,

32:35 but maybe there are other ways we can leverage

32:37 or incentivize,

32:39 uh,

32:39 women to connect with

32:40 other women or even other men,

32:42 right?

32:42 And,

32:43 and in this case we find that sisters-in-law are,

32:45 uh,

32:46 are actually a very,

32:47 you know,

32:47 useful avenue,

32:48 uh,

32:49 given that one there is less like there's supposed

32:51 to be less stigma about interacting with family members.

32:54 Many of.

32:55 These sisters-in-law may either live with you or maybe in the same village as you,

32:58 so I think that's how to promote that engagement is something

33:02 that more research can be done on.

33:04 But of course you know there are,

33:07 you know,

33:07 we need to think about strategic interactions within households.

33:10 Maybe there is intra-household rivalry or there's intra-household bargaining

33:13 issues we need to think about with sisters-in-law,

33:17 but yeah,

33:17 I'll stop there.

33:20 I

33:21 I know.

33:24 The ship over to you.

33:27 It'll take about 15 seconds.

33:30 Just need to wait.

33:38 Doing a psych experiment

33:41 Thanks for the invitation and,

33:42 you know,

33:43 to be part of this great conference.

33:45 Uh,

33:45 and I was thinking about the order of the presentation and I,

33:48 I totally see why it makes sense because Anu sets the stage for

33:53 Another constraint that I'll be talking about today,

33:56 so today's talk is going to focus about sexual harassment in public space

34:00 and police patrolling.

34:01 I'll be talking about two of the papers

34:05 which is part of a larger agenda on this topic

34:07 of gender-based violence with Maria Mikhaila who is here,

34:12 Sophie Amaral and Girja Borkar at the World Bank.

34:14 So.

34:16 To

34:17 set the framework,

34:18 there are

34:20 4 key components.

34:21 The first being

34:22 what's the problem,

34:23 and I think for this audience it's very easy that

34:26 violence against women is a huge problem no matter which country you look at.

34:32 But

34:34 the biggest challenge not just being the problem,

34:36 it's it's the underreporting.

34:38 And

34:39 even though

34:40 we see these statistics and feel that this is a big problem,

34:43 it hasn't been very easy to kind of convince.

34:46 A lot of partners that,

34:48 hey,

34:48 this is a big problem because

34:49 the response is like,

34:51 oh,

34:51 if it's a big problem,

34:52 why don't we see that in the data,

34:54 right?

34:54 And second is,

34:55 well,

34:55 you

34:56 people don't report.

34:57 And second being,

34:58 uh,

34:59 if this is not a problem here,

35:01 it might be a problem in some other city or some other district.

35:04 So this is kind of like my engagement with a lot of the policymakers.

35:09 I'm going to talk about the problem

35:12 in two particular contexts.

35:14 There has been some really nice paper talking about the consequences.

35:17 I think that's fairly well established,

35:19 talks about

35:20 how these things affect mobility,

35:23 education,

35:24 female labor force participation,

35:25 and so and so.

35:27 Today's talk is going to focus a lot on the solutions.

35:30 On one hand,

35:32 I think there's lots of data about

35:34 gender-based violence and intimate partner violence,

35:37 but we don't know a lot about

35:40 sexual harassment in public space,

35:42 so that's completely kind of missing.

35:44 And

35:45 the business as usual is

35:47 we expect

35:48 women to report such crimes,

35:50 so we should be relying on the admin data.

35:51 That doesn't work because of the underreporting.

35:54 So today I'll be talking about a novel

35:58 method to measure sexual harassment in public space

36:00 and talk about evidence from two interventions,

36:04 both in India,

36:06 and it's worth pointing out that it's not as if policymakers or

36:10 police have not been thinking about this.

36:12 There has been lots of

36:14 Innovative,

36:15 I would say things that have been tried out in India,

36:17 including women help desk in Madhya Pradesh has also been studied by researchers,

36:22 all women police stations,

36:24 police patrolling,

36:26 women justice centers in Peru,

36:29 and

36:29 various ways to reduce the costs of registering crime.

36:33 It's not just like you have to physically walk to the police station,

36:35 which is very costly.

36:38 India started something called Dial 112,

36:40 so there has been,

36:41 I would say,

36:41 lots of progress in that.

36:43 And then it goes back to like you know when we started working on these papers,

36:47 we started thinking like

36:49 there's something missing,

36:50 there's something

36:51 much more important here.

36:52 It's more like structural reforms and

36:55 and

36:56 one aspect that we are going to talk about is going to be training programs,

36:59 so to what extent these training programs are effective

37:02 and then none of these things is possible without this I would say strong trust.

37:09 that you build with your partners,

37:11 including the police or various state police in India and in

37:14 many cases co-creating solutions which is kind of a lot easier to

37:18 convince them to scale up.

37:20 So

37:21 the,

37:21 uh,

37:22 so I'll be talking about two talks.

37:24 The first is going to be about,

37:26 uh,

37:26 an intervention that where we partner with Hyderabad City Police

37:30 in the Indian state of Telangana.

37:32 And

37:35 back then in 2014,

37:36 I would say it was pretty advanced to think

37:38 about a specialized police force which is called She Teams

37:42 with the sole objective of addressing gender sexual harassment in public space.

37:46 And the second is,

37:48 although

37:49 they don't quite overlap

37:51 because

37:54 we pretty much started our team working on the two projects almost at the same time,

37:58 but.

37:59 This is about a training program.

38:00 It's a very innovative training program that we co-designed with NGOs,

38:05 lawyers,

38:06 and the police,

38:07 which uses techniques from Theater of the Oppressed.

38:09 This is a very interactive,

38:12 expressive arts training program to study to what extent it

38:16 can reform police when it comes to gender-based violence.

38:19 So the first paper is co-authored with

38:22 Girija,

38:22 Sofia Amaral,

38:24 both at the World Bank,

38:25 Mika here.

38:26 Uh,

38:26 Anjani Kumar,

38:27 who,

38:27 uh,

38:28 was a police commissioner back then,

38:30 uh,

38:31 and Nathan Fiala,

38:31 who was my colleague at University of Connecticut.

38:34 So what do we do in this paper?

38:36 So it's a program where what we did is we partnered with the police

38:40 and we convinced them to vary the presence and the visibility of the police.

38:44 So in the interest of the time,

38:45 I'll skip some of the details of the intervention,

38:47 but what it did is

38:49 they already had a program where the police shows

38:52 up at these hot spots as an undercover,

38:54 means like they wear civil clothes

38:57 so that nobody can identify.

38:58 who they are and it's a lot easier to make arrests.

39:02 So intuitively I think they were spot on.

39:04 And then

39:06 it took us,

39:07 I would say

39:08 2 to 3 years to almost have this conversation and kind of convince them like,

39:11 look,

39:11 why don't we

39:14 put another arm which is about make them visible,

39:16 which is make them go in uniforms.

39:19 We tried this out in 350 hotspots and then

39:23 How do you measure street harassment,

39:25 and I think it's pretty obvious that we

39:27 could not have relied on administrative data.

39:30 So what we did is we trained enumerators who would go on the

39:33 hotspots and actually observe sexual harassment that's

39:36 happening and kind of code it,

39:38 and they did not know anything about the experiment.

39:41 And uh

39:42 then

39:42 we wanted to also understand,

39:44 you know,

39:45 I mean,

39:45 in fact,

39:46 uh,

39:46 this,

39:46 this was a part which uh this project happened uh in the COVID hit

39:52 and we could not collect a lot of data.

39:54 So we kind of went back like we had results and we

39:56 thought about like,

39:57 OK,

39:57 why do,

39:58 why are we finding these results

40:00 and uh since we did not end up doing.

40:03 A lot of data collection due to COVID.

40:05 We came up with this idea about the lab experiments,

40:06 and maybe we can do a lab experiment kind of kind of create very

40:10 similar scenarios for the police to understand why are we finding these effects,

40:13 and we had

40:14 kind of two

40:15 questions here that do you think police can detect these crimes?

40:19 And,

40:19 and I can't talk on behalf of my co-answers because I was like pretty

40:22 clear that they cannot detect this crime because it's a fast moving crime.

40:25 I was absolutely wrong

40:27 and why

40:28 they

40:29 don't sanction and under what circumstances they can sanction these crimes,

40:33 and we wanted to also study

40:35 their attitudes towards gender-based violence.

40:38 So

40:39 I'll skip the context,

40:40 but Hyderabad is no different,

40:42 probably maybe slightly safer than other parts of India.

40:46 So we did a survey where we found that 29%

40:49 face some form of sexual harassment and 87% take some kind of preventive measure.

40:54 So

40:55 as I said,

40:55 I would say it's a very I would say forward looking program.

40:59 They started in 2014

41:01 with this kind of core activity that they have a separate team.

41:05 This is

41:06 part of the police,

41:07 but it's a separate team,

41:09 very independent,

41:10 and what they did is they would do these undercover policing,

41:13 and it was kind of fairly monitored at the top.

41:17 And a key component of this patrolling was

41:20 they had at least one female officer

41:25 in the team,

41:25 so that's kind of one important aspect.

41:28 So as I said,

41:29 we spent almost 2 years

41:31 tweaking the program,

41:33 so they were expanding the program to another 350 hotspots.

41:36 So that's where we came in.

41:38 And we convinced them to have this kind of uniformed policing,

41:41 and on average these teams would visit hotspots 2 to 3 times in a week,

41:47 and each visit lasted around 15 to 20 minutes.

41:49 It's not a lot,

41:50 but I would say it was still quite a bit given that you almost had nothing before,

41:55 and this lasted 6 months.

41:57 That's the maximum time we convinced them to stick to a plan.

42:01 So this is,

42:01 uh,

42:02 I'll skip this part,

42:03 but,

42:04 and I'm going to skip the design and kind of talk about what are the questions.

42:08 So we wanted to study what's the impact of this program

42:11 and what's driving these results.

42:14 So these are like two things that we were interested in studying.

42:18 So the key finding

42:21 that was a big surprise,

42:22 I would say to us and also the police.

42:25 So whether it be it uniformed policing or undercover policing,

42:29 it actually had no effect

42:30 on aggregate measures of sexual harassment.

42:34 It was

42:34 kind of a really big surprise for the police commissioner who's also a co-author,

42:39 to

42:40 accept the result.

42:41 And then

42:43 we

42:44 looked into harassment by two categories which we

42:47 follow the Indian penal code and we kind of

42:50 divide this into milder sexual harassment and severe.

42:53 Milder means like whistling,

42:55 catcalling,

42:55 and by the way,

42:56 these are

42:57 illegal,

42:57 so there are Indian penal code and in fact it's punishable.

43:02 And then you have the severe one which is touching and groping,

43:04 and what we find is these uniformed

43:06 police patrolling reduces sexual harassment by 27%.

43:10 So for the severe form,

43:11 but nothing for the milder form.

43:13 And we also see this being reflected in women's behavior at the hot spot

43:18 when their

43:21 sexual harassment is happening,

43:22 the way they would approach this change,

43:24 so their preventive behavior change.

43:26 So this is like the two key findings

43:29 and

43:30 as I said undercover.

43:31 No effects whether be it mild

43:33 or severe.

43:34 However,

43:36 it's worth pointing out that the police were spot on because we did find more arrests

43:42 in undercover arm because it's easier to arrest,

43:45 but it did not translate into a reduction in sexual harassment.

43:48 Now what's driving

43:50 the result?

43:51 So

43:52 first,

43:52 it's being driven by deterrence.

43:54 So when you see an officer in uniform,

43:56 it's a pure deterrence effect.

43:57 So that's the key finding.

44:00 And the next one

44:02 was very important,

44:03 I would say as a researcher that the attitude matters a lot.

44:07 It means if these officers in the lab experiment what we found that officers who have

44:12 I would say more progressive or more harsher attitude towards gender,

44:16 so they actually act

44:18 on both severe and milder forms.

44:20 So that's kind of the two

44:22 reasons why we find these effects.

44:25 Now then goes

44:26 this other study which is in Bihar,

44:28 which also happens to be my home state.

44:31 This is with Mika,

44:32 Sophia,

44:33 and Girri,

44:36 and I would say.

44:37 is a project which I would say has taken a lot of our social capital,

44:42 so we did this in 12 districts

44:44 in Bihar.

44:46 The government changed.

44:47 Many police chiefs changed over time,

44:49 and here the key

44:52 the key intervention was to test a novel

44:56 training program because most of the training

44:58 program when these officers are hired.

45:00 They have this one time training and nothing happens after that.

45:03 So it's a it's a program which is more interactive.

45:05 It's not about like I'm going to present slides and you're going to attend like

45:09 the kind of training we take in colleges,

45:12 right?

45:12 So it's not like that.

45:13 It's very interactive

45:15 and we wanted to study the impact of the program

45:17 on both officers' technical and soft skills and uh spillover

45:22 so.

45:24 The key message is we targeted all the

45:26 key decision makers at the police station level.

45:28 That was the target,

45:29 and it was all male officers.

45:31 So

45:33 this pedagogy is the novelty here.

45:35 So

45:36 there are various things they try to target like technical skills,

45:39 truthfulness.

45:40 When a victim comes to complain,

45:42 do you believe the victim?

45:43 Victim blaming,

45:44 empathy,

45:45 attitude towards gender-based violence,

45:47 discrimination.

45:48 It's a pretty broad 3 day training program.

45:51 Now

45:53 I'm going to just

45:54 point out

45:55 one aspect.

45:56 So here it became a very emotional training program because officers are guided

46:00 through different ways in which their past behavior were harmful to the women.

46:04 So this became kind of like a fairly emotional part of the training.

46:08 This is kind of the pedagogy.

46:10 These are some pictures.

46:11 So this is like snake and ladder,

46:13 do's and don'ts as an officer.

46:15 Uh,

46:15 circle of influence as a police officer.

46:18 Uh,

46:18 and there's a bit of a story behind this handbook.

46:20 Like we piloted the training program,

46:23 and

46:24 after the pilot,

46:25 when we had the focus group meeting,

46:26 the officer said,

46:28 It was really fun,

46:29 but what do we do?

46:31 And

46:33 we came back and we're like,

46:34 wait a second,

46:34 we had a 3 day training program and he was saying we don't know what to do.

46:38 So we consulted senior police officers and

46:41 it was a very important lesson for me.

46:43 It's like.

46:44 You guys don't know what you're doing,

46:45 so with the police you have to give them an action book.

46:49 Without that it's not going to work.

46:50 So we created this kind of a really fun action book

46:53 which was about if someone comes,

46:55 this is what you're supposed to do translating inputs into outcomes.

46:58 And

46:59 I'll skip the experimental design and

47:02 some of the quotes

47:06 it felt like all the childhood memories were restored.

47:08 Some of them talked about why this training program should be one week and so and so.

47:14 And I'll just we find improvements in both technical and soft skills,

47:18 which was very encouraging,

47:21 and we also find

47:23 evidence of spillover,

47:24 means these junior female officers at the police station,

47:27 they were better treated

47:29 these junior officers were not targeted as a part of the program.

47:33 So just to kind of a way forward,

47:36 as I said,

47:37 the partnership

47:38 was very important because the state has

47:40 implemented this training program in their academy,

47:43 which means every new recruit

47:45 is going to go through this program,

47:47 and we just did the first batch in 2024.

47:50 And

47:51 the last part

47:53 which

47:55 We learned while working on this project in

47:58 Bihar was it's like a completely overlooked problem.

48:00 We expect police to do many things,

48:02 but we barely know what their daily challenges are.

48:06 Even I

48:07 was pretty clueless,

48:09 stress,

48:10 anxiety,

48:11 cholesterol,

48:11 blood pressure,

48:13 sleep.

48:13 We all know these things are important because there are

48:15 papers talking about various aspects and how this has implications.

48:19 But in this particular case we went ahead and we are asking them to do.

48:23 More things

48:25 without knowing what their constraints are,

48:27 and this is something that

48:30 me,

48:30 Girija,

48:31 Mika,

48:32 and Sophia and Lilith,

48:33 we have been talking about and we have collected data from

48:37 a few places in India

48:38 and this is a new agenda that we would like to pursue.

48:44 Well done.

48:48 All right,

48:49 Rachel.

48:50 Um,

48:51 all right,

48:51 well,

48:51 while I wait for the slides,

48:52 I'll just say,

48:53 uh,

48:53 thank you so much to Shani and the other organizers for kind

48:56 of creating this really interesting cohesive session and indeed whole day.

48:59 Um,

49:00 thanks to all of you for,

49:01 um,

49:01 for being here.

49:02 Um,

49:03 I'm excited to tell you about,

49:05 um,

49:05 uh.

49:06 Several of my projects,

49:07 uh,

49:07 like others,

49:08 I've kind of chosen several,

49:09 um,

49:10 uh,

49:10 several of my projects that fit together to kind of form kind of

49:13 a cohesive set of,

49:14 you know,

49:15 potential policy solutions,

49:17 uh,

49:17 that can work together to improve working conditions in,

49:20 in export manufacturing.

49:24 And the case study that I'm gonna use is the garment industry in Bangladesh,

49:27 which means that I do have to start with this

49:30 extremely sad picture that some of you might remember.

49:32 Um,

49:33 this was

49:33 the Rana Plaza factory.

49:35 Uh,

49:35 it collapsed in April 2013.

49:38 Sometimes people see the picture and say,

49:40 you know,

49:40 was there an earthquake?

49:41 No,

49:42 no,

49:42 there wasn't.

49:43 It just wasn't structurally sound.

49:44 It was never even supposed to be used for manufacturing,

49:47 um,

49:48 and it eventually,

49:49 um,

49:49 collapsed,

49:50 and,

49:51 um,

49:51 ultimately over 1000 workers were killed.

49:53 Which makes it the,

49:55 uh,

49:55 you know,

49:55 the biggest,

49:56 uh,

49:56 garment industry disaster in the history of the world

49:59 and the biggest disaster in any industry in the world since,

50:02 uh,

50:02 since 1984.

50:04 So just,

50:04 you know,

50:05 kind of a huge human toll as far as,

50:07 um,

50:08 loss of life,

50:09 um,

50:09 in surveys we've done afterwards,

50:11 just a random sample of workers,

50:13 you know,

50:13 up to 20% knew a worker that was seriously hurt or killed in Rana Plaza,

50:18 so just,

50:18 you know,

50:18 a huge,

50:19 uh,

50:20 a huge shock to the,

50:21 the industry.

50:22 And so in light of that

50:25 there was a lot of discussion after the um you know,

50:27 after the collapse,

50:29 are workers even gonna wanna keep working in the industry are suppliers gonna pull

50:33 out given that uh you know there

50:35 was such widespread disregard for worker safety that

50:38 factories were sending workers to work in a

50:40 building where they should never have even,

50:42 uh,

50:43 been working in the first place.

50:45 But as you see from,

50:46 um,

50:46 this graph that didn't happen in the least,

50:49 um,

50:49 the red line is,

50:50 uh,

50:51 is 2013.

50:52 When Rana Plaza happened,

50:53 Bangladesh is the,

50:54 um,

50:54 the heavy,

50:55 uh,

50:55 black line,

50:56 and so you see there was no trend break.

50:58 It just,

50:58 you know,

50:59 exports kept,

51:00 you know,

51:00 kept growing and growing,

51:02 and,

51:02 um,

51:03 ultimately Bangladesh has,

51:04 has grown into the,

51:06 um,

51:06 the,

51:07 you know,

51:07 the second biggest,

51:08 uh,

51:09 apparel exporter in the world.

51:10 China is on a different scale on the left,

51:12 but if anything it's decreasing its,

51:14 its exports.

51:15 So,

51:15 you know,

51:16 workers were still,

51:17 um,

51:17 going to the factories even in light of this huge tragedy.

51:21 And that makes sense because you know we also

51:24 know that the garment industry has had really important um

51:28 positive impacts on um on on workers and their their families.

51:33 So in some earlier work I've done with Mushfik Mubarak

51:35 we looked at the change in girls' um lives as the garment industry,

51:40 uh,

51:41 rolled out,

51:42 um,

51:42 and so what we.

51:43 Found is that the garment industry uh increased uh girls' education

51:48 and we,

51:48 we did that by comparing,

51:50 uh,

51:50 the,

51:50 you know,

51:50 enrollment rates of girls in villages proximate to

51:53 garment factories where girls could live at home

51:55 and commute to these garment factories compared to

51:58 other villages that were not proximate to garment factories

52:02 before versus after a garment factory opened.

52:05 Uh,

52:05 and so what you see in these,

52:06 uh,

52:07 in these graphs here is that there were particularly large effects on

52:10 younger girls who weren't eligible yet to work in the factories.

52:14 There might have been some dropouts among older girls,

52:17 not enough to have a negative effect.

52:19 You,

52:20 uh no age group here do we see a negative impact,

52:22 but there's,

52:23 um,

52:24 you know,

52:24 a less positive impact among,

52:26 among older girls,

52:27 and the effects were substantial.

52:29 So to take one age here,

52:31 um,

52:31 an 8 year old girl was 13% points more

52:34 likely to be in school after the garment industry,

52:37 uh,

52:38 came to her village compared to,

52:39 um,

52:40 another girl in a,

52:41 um,

52:42 in a non-garment proximate village.

52:44 And so,

52:45 you know,

52:45 kind of because the industry became so important,

52:47 we do a back of the envelope calculation that showed that,

52:50 um,

52:51 you know,

52:51 it's kind of some of the,

52:52 um.

52:53 Presentations this morning

52:55 pointed out Bangladesh is one of the countries that

52:57 has had a convergence in girls and boys' education.

53:00 We find that the garment industry was an important,

53:03 um,

53:03 contributor to that convergence,

53:05 um,

53:06 causing about 3% points nationwide of the increase in girls' enrollment.

53:11 Uh,

53:11 we also similarly found that the garment industry

53:13 led girls to delay marriage and childbearing,

53:16 um,

53:17 so kind of other positive impacts.

53:21 And then if we fast forward we can also see that it's not just future workers,

53:25 it's the current workers that have these jobs.

53:27 The garment sector jobs are providing

53:29 really important valuable sources of income.

53:32 So what I'm showing you here is some,

53:34 um,

53:34 um,

53:35 is uh is some ongoing work I have with Laura Boudreau and Waheed Rahman

53:39 where in the midst of the COVID pandemic in November 2020

53:44 we resurveyed a sample of workers who had been um active garment workers in 2017.

53:49 And so of course some of them were still working,

53:52 others of them,

53:53 them weren't

53:54 and so what I'm showing you here is the earnings of workers who men men versus women

53:59 who were still in the garment industry when we surveyed them in late 2020

54:03 compared to workers who had left the industry before the COVID pandemic,

54:07 uh,

54:08 before January 2020,

54:09 or workers who left after January 2020.

54:13 Um,

54:14 so I don't wanna claim that this is a causal impact of the,

54:17 of the garment industry.

54:18 Workers might have chosen to leave this industry because

54:20 they were less attached to the labor force,

54:23 but we've at least taken off the kind of most

54:24 obvious kind of selection here that we've only showed,

54:27 we're only showing you

54:28 workers who worked after leaving the garment industry.

54:31 So all these,

54:32 you know,

54:32 were employed,

54:33 um,

54:33 at some point.

54:34 And so what you see is the,

54:35 um,

54:36 among the women,

54:37 the blue line is the current garment worker line,

54:39 same,

54:40 same for men as well,

54:41 and so.

54:41 You see,

54:41 you know,

54:42 there's something of a dip among,

54:44 um,

54:44 you know,

54:44 in the kind of the real peak of the COVID pandemic,

54:47 um,

54:48 April,

54:49 uh,

54:49 April 2020 but the,

54:51 you know,

54:51 after a couple of months,

54:52 the,

54:52 um,

54:53 the,

54:53 the earnings rebound,

54:54 and they never lost the majority of their earnings.

54:58 That's in stark contrast to women that were,

55:01 uh,

55:01 you know,

55:02 employed but not in the garment industry

55:04 who really lost,

55:05 uh,

55:06 ultimately a very large share,

55:08 uh,

55:08 of their income.

55:09 Um,

55:10 and kind of,

55:10 you know,

55:11 similarly for these women garment workers' husbands,

55:13 they,

55:13 you know,

55:14 their,

55:14 their graph looks similar.

55:15 They also lost a large share of their income,

55:17 so the garment industry during the COVID pandemic

55:20 was providing a really important source of,

55:23 um,

55:23 of income support to the women working,

55:25 uh,

55:25 in the,

55:25 in the industry.

55:30 So that brings us to the question.

55:32 Um,

55:32 it's obviously a huge tragedy when,

55:35 um,

55:35 you know,

55:35 when kind of a factory collapses and kills many workers.

55:39 There's,

55:40 you know,

55:40 relatively high rates of other,

55:42 um,

55:42 you know,

55:42 injuries and um

55:45 um illness spread in the factories.

55:47 Um,

55:47 I've done some other work on estimating rates

55:51 of sexual harassment to tag on to vicious.

55:55 Uh,

55:55 work as well.

55:56 So I mean these are challenging places to work,

55:59 but they bring these important benefits to the women who are working

56:03 and,

56:03 uh,

56:04 you know,

56:04 the girls whose families invest in human capital for

56:07 them to get these jobs in the future.

56:09 So I think this brings up the key policy question

56:12 can policy

56:13 make these jobs better so that women can enjoy the,

56:17 you know,

56:17 the good parts of these garment jobs without,

56:20 um,

56:20 those,

56:20 you know,

56:21 hard working conditions and even tragic consequences.

56:26 So the first thing that I wanna show you is um is a paper by um.

56:31 From a project that I did with Laurent Bossavi and um Yun Cho,

56:35 who are both at the bank,

56:36 and so what we did was we looked at the net effects of all the Rana Plaza responses

56:42 and those were kind of,

56:43 you know,

56:44 a series of responses.

56:45 We can't

56:46 unbundle,

56:47 you know,

56:47 different kind of things that happened,

56:48 but we can estimate the net effects of all these responses

56:52 which were that retailers started pushing toward for better conditions

56:56 and they were prompted by both,

56:58 uh,

56:59 by both kind of,

57:00 um,

57:00 high income.

57:01 Country consumers who protested and said,

57:04 you know,

57:04 I don't wanna buy clothes from,

57:06 um,

57:06 H&M anymore if you're going to be,

57:09 um,

57:09 sourcing from factories where workers are killed.

57:12 So that was one source of the change.

57:14 But also,

57:15 um,

57:15 workers in Bangladesh themselves protested for,

57:19 uh,

57:19 better working conditions and,

57:20 and higher wages.

57:22 Those culminated in some high profile but ultimately voluntary,

57:27 um,

57:27 initiatives.

57:28 You might remember their names,

57:29 the Accord and the Alliance.

57:31 Where factories could be,

57:33 um,

57:33 you know,

57:34 could choose to be audited,

57:35 they were,

57:35 they were voluntary,

57:36 although the retailers might have pushed them to,

57:39 to do so and said,

57:40 you know,

57:40 I will only buy from you if you sign on to these,

57:43 uh,

57:43 these alliances.

57:44 So,

57:44 uh,

57:45 you know,

57:45 that was an important channel.

57:46 Even factories that didn't sign might have improved working conditions or wages

57:51 because the retailers were still pushing them even if they didn't sign

57:55 or just to compete with these,

57:56 um,

57:56 other factories that were signing and where working conditions were improving.

58:00 So you know,

58:01 again,

58:01 the net impact of all of those,

58:03 we can't disentangle what's a direct channel,

58:05 what's an indirect,

58:06 but we try to estimate the net impact of all those channels

58:10 by comparing workers in the garment industry

58:14 after Rana Plaza happened

58:16 in treated districts,

58:18 and those are districts that export,

58:20 so we're thinking that these are the ones

58:21 where the international buyers are pushing for better conditions

58:25 and comparing.

58:26 Those workers

58:27 to um

58:28 garment sector workers in districts where there

58:31 aren't export factories is the one control group

58:34 and then,

58:35 uh,

58:35 other manufacturing workers

58:37 in these um districts where they're export factories that are that are not,

58:41 um,

58:42 that are not garment factories

58:44 so that's,

58:44 um,

58:45 that's kind of our plaza,

58:46 you know,

58:46 that's our identification strategy to estimate the

58:49 plausibly causal impacts of the this.

58:51 Package of um

58:52 reforms after Rana Plaza

58:54 and the um the the line of the table in blue gives those effects

58:59 and so what we see is that wages went up by uh on average 10% after Rana Plaza

59:05 and so did working conditions.

59:06 Those are measured in standard deviations

59:08 and it's a large effect of 0.8% of a standard deviation increase of,

59:12 um,

59:13 of working conditions,

59:15 um.

59:16 So you know that's quite a striking result um

59:20 and you know overall compensation went up because both

59:23 um both wages and non-wage benefits went up,

59:27 but the other thing that we find is that

59:30 this didn't come at the expense of total employment

59:32 which you maybe were already predicting because you know

59:35 we saw the industry just kept going so that

59:37 you know some workers needed to sustain that production.

59:40 So what it looks like happened is that before Rana Plaza

59:44 employers had some degree of monopsony power,

59:46 uh,

59:46 market power over the employees,

59:49 and so there was scope to raise total compensation

59:52 if they were,

59:53 um,

59:53 adequately motivated to do so.

59:55 And indeed

59:56 the retailers pushing for better conditions after Rana

59:59 Plaza was exactly the motivation they needed,

1:00:02 so it was kind of,

1:00:03 uh,

1:00:03 it did kind of result in a net win for the for the workers.

1:00:09 So that was a um kind of that was a

1:00:11 story of the retailers kind of pushing for better conditions that

1:00:15 improved workers' lives on the ground as I mentioned of

1:00:17 course workers were advocating for better conditions so they weren't totally

1:00:21 uh uninvolved in the process but it looks like kind of a key channel was the um

1:00:26 the the retailers.

1:00:28 But

1:00:28 what I wanna ask next is the question

1:00:31 is there kind of a more bottom up approach

1:00:33 that says.

1:00:34 If we give workers information,

1:00:36 will that empower them to access jobs with better conditions?

1:00:40 Um,

1:00:41 so in this work with Laura Boudreau and Tyler McCormick,

1:00:44 we,

1:00:44 we point out the descriptive fact that when

1:00:46 we compare internal migrants in Bangladeshi garment factories to

1:00:51 local workers who grew,

1:00:53 everybody's from Bangladesh,

1:00:54 but we're comparing migrants from rural areas to local workers

1:00:57 who grew up in these areas.

1:00:59 Near the factories,

1:01:00 um,

1:01:01 when we do that,

1:01:01 we find that internal migrants are in factories with worse working conditions,

1:01:05 and this might not surprise you because,

1:01:07 you know,

1:01:08 internal migrants might be disadvantaged in,

1:01:10 in many ways,

1:01:11 but strikingly

1:01:12 they're actually,

1:01:13 if anything in factories with higher wages,

1:01:16 um,

1:01:17 so it's not just an overall disadvantage story,

1:01:19 it was,

1:01:19 you know,

1:01:20 something about the,

1:01:21 the getting into factories with worse working conditions.

1:01:24 The other key fact is that the migrants move towards better,

1:01:28 uh,

1:01:28 factories with better conditions as they as they gain experience.

1:01:32 So we argue this is consistent with a story in which

1:01:35 internal migrants were less informed about the industry as they as they began,

1:01:39 uh,

1:01:40 you know,

1:01:40 you can't know what's a good workplace,

1:01:42 uh,

1:01:42 you don't know what the factory,

1:01:43 if the factory is gonna fall down unfortunately until it does,

1:01:46 so they're less informed.

1:01:48 Local workers had more word of mouth,

1:01:49 um,

1:01:50 about where it's a good place to work.

1:01:52 Everybody knows what wages are.

1:01:53 So the,

1:01:54 the factories that were attracting migrants were actually competing on wages.

1:01:57 They just,

1:01:58 it wasn't,

1:01:59 uh,

1:01:59 efficient for them to compete on working conditions because

1:02:02 workers wouldn't even notice those investments.

1:02:04 Um,

1:02:05 but as the workers gained experience,

1:02:06 they started behaving more like locals.

1:02:09 So what the,

1:02:10 you know,

1:02:10 so this suggests that there's a learning process of migrants,

1:02:13 but that there's some welfare gain to be had

1:02:16 if you give them the information and help them,

1:02:18 uh,

1:02:18 you know,

1:02:19 help them kind of on this slow learning process.

1:02:21 Can,

1:02:21 can we speed that along?

1:02:23 So this was a descriptive paper that kind

1:02:25 of suggests that there's this learning model,

1:02:28 um,

1:02:28 but so Laura and I,

1:02:30 um,

1:02:31 decided to test that experimentally in work with um Shaquille Ahmed.

1:02:35 So,

1:02:36 um,

1:02:37 in this RCT

1:02:38 one of the treatments is what we call a,

1:02:40 uh,

1:02:40 report card for garment factories,

1:02:42 um,

1:02:43 and on the right here I show you an anonymized version,

1:02:46 um,

1:02:46 and translated.

1:02:47 Into English of the report card that that workers got

1:02:50 so to make this report card,

1:02:51 the first thing we did was we conducted a large scale,

1:02:55 uh,

1:02:55 geographically representative survey of workers in these

1:02:58 neighborhoods because there's no publicly available information,

1:03:01 um,

1:03:01 thinks about,

1:03:02 um,

1:03:03 about a representative sample of factories.

1:03:05 The kind of factories that you have audit data from aren't representative

1:03:08 and we really wanted to make sure we had information about.

1:03:11 Uh,

1:03:11 the full set of factories,

1:03:12 um,

1:03:13 so we color coded the,

1:03:15 um,

1:03:15 uh,

1:03:16 the grades that workers,

1:03:17 um,

1:03:18 that workers got.

1:03:19 We masked grades that were below median because we were worried about factories

1:03:23 discovering this and getting mad at us and the,

1:03:25 and the workers.

1:03:26 So,

1:03:26 uh,

1:03:27 if you're below median,

1:03:28 you only see the color code,

1:03:29 so at least they don't know exactly the kind of score,

1:03:32 uh,

1:03:32 that they had even though we told workers that they were in order.

1:03:35 Um,

1:03:36 so we,

1:03:37 um,

1:03:37 you know,

1:03:38 we kind of,

1:03:38 there were about 30 different survey data,

1:03:40 uh,

1:03:41 questions that went into this report card,

1:03:43 and we commissioned again like Nashi in the,

1:03:45 the comic book,

1:03:46 we commissioned,

1:03:46 uh,

1:03:47 um,

1:03:47 an illustrator to kind of make little pictures to help

1:03:49 workers that weren't fully literate to kind of understand

1:03:52 what were the things that went into these different,

1:03:55 um,

1:03:55 into these different grades.

1:03:57 Um,

1:03:58 so my time is up.

1:03:59 So,

1:03:59 um,

1:04:00 we showed the,

1:04:01 um,

1:04:01 uh,

1:04:02 we showed the,

1:04:02 um,

1:04:03 the grades for these specific measures,

1:04:05 things like not just an overall grade but employment practices,

1:04:09 uh,

1:04:09 maternity and child care,

1:04:11 physical safety and comfort,

1:04:12 so that workers that kind of cared specifically about some

1:04:15 dimension would be able to check that score as well.

1:04:18 Um,

1:04:19 there was another treatment arm that,

1:04:20 um,

1:04:21 gave workers job vacancy information that we

1:04:23 collected from HR managers of the factories,

1:04:26 and,

1:04:27 uh,

1:04:27 this is in Bungalow,

1:04:28 but you kind of get the,

1:04:29 the format of it

1:04:30 to see if,

1:04:31 um,

1:04:31 you know,

1:04:32 if you need the,

1:04:33 if this is kind of an additional tool that helps workers move towards,

1:04:36 uh,

1:04:36 factories with better wages or working conditions.

1:04:39 Um,

1:04:40 so just to sum up,

1:04:41 I'd say,

1:04:42 you know,

1:04:42 how can we think about improving working conditions?

1:04:45 There's rules for both kind of a top down approach that in,

1:04:48 uh,

1:04:48 um,

1:04:49 you know,

1:04:49 in the,

1:04:49 in a supply,

1:04:50 a long supply chain and export manufacturing,

1:04:52 buyers have an important role,

1:04:55 um,

1:04:55 but also this kind of bottom up approach,

1:04:57 um,

1:04:57 and I should mention that,

1:04:58 um,

1:04:58 that that survey is ongoing.

1:05:00 We're actually launching the in line next week,

1:05:02 so I don't have the results of that experiment,

1:05:04 but,

1:05:04 um.

1:05:05 Um,

1:05:05 I'm excited to analyze and disseminate them and to get that information out,

1:05:09 but at least kind of the descriptive paper I

1:05:11 mentioned suggests that there's this important role for,

1:05:14 uh,

1:05:14 for information.

1:05:15 Um,

1:05:16 and,

1:05:16 uh,

1:05:17 and,

1:05:17 and I'll just conclude with a very brief plug for some of my,

1:05:20 um,

1:05:20 co-authors and others,

1:05:21 um,

1:05:22 work that,

1:05:23 you know,

1:05:23 it's not either or top down or bottom up.

1:05:25 There's kind of hybrid approaches where,

1:05:27 um,

1:05:27 unions or safety committees that the factories form but are kind of

1:05:32 staffed with workers can also be

1:05:34 really effective at improving working conditions,

1:05:36 um,

1:05:37 so thank you.

1:05:38 Thank you,

1:05:39 Rachel.

1:05:42 Thanks,

1:05:42 a big thanks to all our panelists,

1:05:44 stuck on time,

1:05:46 on point,

1:05:46 right?

1:05:47 So now we have 25 minutes for questions and answers.

1:05:51 So we're gonna do

1:05:52 3 rounds.

1:05:54 Uh,

1:05:55 and I would say

1:05:57 let's

1:05:58 the question short,

1:05:59 ask a question,

1:06:00 not make a comment,

1:06:02 and then,

1:06:03 you know,

1:06:03 identify if there's a particular,

1:06:05 uh,

1:06:05 speaker you'd like to reach out to anyone on that side?

1:06:08 OK,

1:06:09 one.

1:06:10 2

1:06:11 and anyone 3,

1:06:12 right?

1:06:12 Let's do 3 right now.

1:06:15 Hi,

1:06:15 good afternoon.

1:06:15 My name is Harsh.

1:06:17 I

1:06:17 till recently had the very fun job of working with the,

1:06:21 the World Bank Gender Group on developing the strategy

1:06:24 and organizing and analyzing consultations to get content for that.

1:06:29 You,

1:06:29 Pam,

1:06:29 ended your presentation,

1:06:30 if I understood correctly,

1:06:32 questioning the merit of engaging fathers in care

1:06:35 and,

1:06:36 uh,

1:06:36 risking reducing women's autonomy

1:06:39 and,

1:06:39 uh,

1:06:40 bringing in sticky social norms.

1:06:42 Um,

1:06:43 two inputs that we heard that might go contrary to that is,

1:06:47 one is the risk of backlash,

1:06:49 increasing jobs for women,

1:06:51 while not involving men.

1:06:53 And another input we've gotten is that if

1:06:55 we want to absolutely increase wages for women,

1:06:58 bring men into those jobs,

1:06:59 then wages will go up for everyone.

1:07:01 So,

1:07:01 if you have any data or reflections on that,

1:07:03 I'd love to hear that.

1:07:06 Anybody out here?

1:07:08 right.

1:07:11 Hi,

1:07:11 thank you,

1:07:11 Caridad.

1:07:12 Also a question for Pam.

1:07:13 Yeah,

1:07:13 it has to do with whether you've looked into

1:07:16 the

1:07:18 effects of um.

1:07:20 Child care preschool separately

1:07:22 because it is so different both from the perspective of the child,

1:07:26 the family,

1:07:27 and the production of quality care,

1:07:29 uh,

1:07:30 those like the 0 to 2 and the 3 to 5 age groups

1:07:33 that,

1:07:34 um,

1:07:34 I mean at least with the evidence I've looked at the,

1:07:37 the.

1:07:38 The stories are different,

1:07:40 um,

1:07:40 you know,

1:07:41 it definitely

1:07:42 preschool,

1:07:43 it's easier to produce at scale.

1:07:46 It's more standardized.

1:07:47 Kids get benefit from interacting with another,

1:07:49 so it's easier to produce better quality in a way

1:07:52 and there's more take up by families.

1:07:53 So

1:07:54 I just sorry,

1:07:55 that was my question.

1:07:56 Great,

1:07:56 and there's one out there,

1:07:57 right?

1:07:58 So who

1:07:59 the question there,

1:07:59 um,

1:08:00 thank you so much.

1:08:01 Uh,

1:08:01 my name is Divan Shi,

1:08:02 and I'm a public policy student at University of Chicago.

1:08:05 My question is for Nishat Ananukriti Booth.

1:08:08 Uh,

1:08:08 so I was before this,

1:08:09 I was working in Haryana and I worked with Mahila Police stations

1:08:12 and also like training police force,

1:08:14 and

1:08:15 one of the biggest problem was the factor of reconciliation

1:08:18 that every time there's a crime that's committed against women,

1:08:21 the focus is on

1:08:22 putting them back into the house,

1:08:23 right?

1:08:24 Uh,

1:08:24 and I think it's also because of information asymmetry that the women don't

1:08:28 know that there is enough financial resources available,

1:08:31 like there's a self-help group or there's a one stop center that they can go to,

1:08:35 which,

1:08:35 uh,

1:08:35 is my question that I want to ask Anukriti that in your research did you explore

1:08:41 using Asha workers or Angan Mari workers to sort of bridge that gap.

1:08:44 Thank you.

1:08:48 All right,

1:08:48 let's turn to the panel.

1:08:50 OK,

1:08:51 so let me,

1:08:52 so

1:08:53 thank you for the questions.

1:08:54 Um,

1:08:55 so to this first point about,

1:08:57 um,

1:08:57 so I think if I understood the question correctly,

1:08:59 you're sort of saying there are some,

1:09:01 uh,

1:09:02 lessons we've learned from the literature on women's labor force participation

1:09:06 and you're thinking about how those would relate to the,

1:09:08 uh,

1:09:09 experiments engaging fathers within the household and early childhood care.

1:09:13 I mean,

1:09:13 I think your point is a really interesting one,

1:09:14 but I'm not sure I would interpret it the way that

1:09:17 that

1:09:18 you did.

1:09:18 So I think the first point that we worry about backlash,

1:09:21 I think it's exactly

1:09:22 the sort of unintended consequences that is the thing that we should

1:09:26 worry about when we think about engaging fathers in the household.

1:09:29 So many of us come

1:09:30 from this sort of

1:09:31 wealthy country mindset of

1:09:33 of household dynamics where fathers are already.

1:09:36 Involved

1:09:37 and I think it's easy to think about that

1:09:39 in terms of net benefits for child development potentially

1:09:43 and to miss the sort of unintended consequence of having men

1:09:46 enter a female dominated space when in an environment where men

1:09:50 have a lot of power relative to women

1:09:52 and I also think that

1:09:54 we sort of

1:09:55 there's this other unintended consequence of fathers

1:09:59 who aren't.

1:10:00 Paying a lot of attention to their kids to begin with may

1:10:03 not be very good at it,

1:10:05 and the wrong intervention may in fact be worse than no intervention at all.

1:10:09 So I think it's a similar story of

1:10:11 unintended consequences and backlash that we are wary of

1:10:15 now.

1:10:15 I think your point about

1:10:16 within the labor force we see,

1:10:18 you know,

1:10:18 and it's difficult to get causality,

1:10:20 but in general

1:10:21 male dominated sectors have higher wages.

1:10:24 Uh,

1:10:24 and get more credit.

1:10:25 I mean,

1:10:25 I think that's,

1:10:26 that

1:10:27 is a very interesting

1:10:29 phenomenon,

1:10:30 but I'm not sure how it translates into the domain of

1:10:32 domestic responsibilities within the household and that these are things that are

1:10:36 not,

1:10:36 there's no market wage for how you do the dishes anyway,

1:10:39 and so I'm not sure there's a natural,

1:10:41 I wish that there were,

1:10:42 uh,

1:10:43 but,

1:10:43 uh,

1:10:44 not that I ever do the dishes,

1:10:45 but,

1:10:46 um,

1:10:46 but I,

1:10:47 but I think I'm not sure that there's a parallel with that one,

1:10:49 but.

1:10:49 I think the first point is,

1:10:50 is very well taken,

1:10:51 but,

1:10:51 but I would interpret it that we should be thinking more about the backlash

1:10:55 that's specific to the within the household context.

1:10:57 Um,

1:10:58 on the second point,

1:10:59 uh,

1:10:59 uh,

1:11:00 about 0 to 2 versus 3 to 5,

1:11:02 I mean,

1:11:03 you are right,

1:11:04 they are quite different.

1:11:06 Uh,

1:11:06 I'm speaking so in my own systematic review and some

1:11:08 of the other systematic reviews that have come out recently,

1:11:10 in general,

1:11:11 we still see that,

1:11:13 uh,

1:11:14 while it.

1:11:15 Is so access is very different between those two,

1:11:19 but I think in terms of

1:11:20 interventions being generally not bad for children,

1:11:23 that's a regularity we see on most

1:11:26 classes of outcomes for young kids

1:11:28 and for older kids.

1:11:28 And so even though we worry a lot about quality

1:11:31 both in daycare and in preschool.

1:11:34 And with some caveats about the set of

1:11:38 programs that are evaluated may not be representative of the broader market,

1:11:42 but in general what we see is that in both of those domains it

1:11:46 looks like center-based care is at least not bad and often weekly or.

1:11:50 Or strongly good for children and so I'm not sure there's

1:11:54 as stark of a discontinuity.

1:11:55 I think there's also a uh a difference

1:11:58 in terms of how they relate to

1:11:59 women's labor force participation because with preschool,

1:12:02 if you also have even younger kids,

1:12:04 then it has very little impact on women's labor force participation.

1:12:07 Shit.

1:12:10 Was it for me or

1:12:11 both of you,

1:12:13 if I can start,

1:12:14 uh,

1:12:14 so I think I agree what you just said that that is true,

1:12:17 that often if there is,

1:12:19 say,

1:12:19 a dispute within the household or in,

1:12:21 you know,

1:12:22 issue with domestic violence,

1:12:23 uh,

1:12:23 even the,

1:12:24 the police station or,

1:12:26 you know,

1:12:26 anyone who's involved try to sort of make sure that

1:12:28 the woman basically just goes back to the household,

1:12:31 and I think it just reflects the fact that

1:12:33 the outside options for women are pretty bad.

1:12:36 Right,

1:12:36 so,

1:12:37 uh,

1:12:37 one is if you're not working,

1:12:38 if you're not financially independent,

1:12:40 then that creates a constraint.

1:12:42 Um,

1:12:42 the other alternative might be to go back to,

1:12:44 let's say,

1:12:45 to live with your NATO family or,

1:12:46 you know,

1:12:46 parents for a little while.

1:12:47 And again there is a lot of social stigma in this context,

1:12:51 especially in places like Haryana,

1:12:52 and that's really something that is frowned upon.

1:12:54 And in fact there's a reason why you know your daughter is

1:12:56 supposed to just in pretty local societies just be given away,

1:12:59 and then,

1:13:00 you know,

1:13:00 the interaction between NATO families and.

1:13:02 Marital families is supposed to be very low,

1:13:04 so I think this,

1:13:06 even though this is sort of an outcome we don't want,

1:13:08 it essentially reflects the social norms that are

1:13:11 prevalent and the constraints that women face.

1:13:13 So in that sense,

1:13:14 you know,

1:13:15 if the alternative is just really so bad,

1:13:17 then you know then.

1:13:18 Even though this may not be the best outcome,

1:13:20 you know,

1:13:20 everybody's trying to sort of do that,

1:13:22 so I think the way we would try to

1:13:24 that might become weaker if women are more likely to participate in the economy,

1:13:29 work,

1:13:29 and have financial independence,

1:13:31 and then of course,

1:13:31 you know how social norms change over time.

1:13:34 Uh,

1:13:34 and I think,

1:13:35 and I let me add to that,

1:13:36 and then the second point,

1:13:38 uh,

1:13:38 you raised was about ASHA workers.

1:13:39 So in that,

1:13:40 in the project that I discussed,

1:13:42 we did not because we were working with the local

1:13:44 family planning clinic and we could distribute the vouchers ourselves.

1:13:47 But in ongoing work we have now actually gone

1:13:49 back to Jaunpur and we are working with the mothers-in-law

1:13:52 and,

1:13:52 uh,

1:13:53 and the daughters.

1:13:54 In law and we're trying to,

1:13:55 you know,

1:13:56 work with health workers and

1:13:57 it's interesting how even though we think that

1:13:59 Ahas definitely have a lot of presence,

1:14:02 uh,

1:14:02 if you ask how many people have actually

1:14:04 visited your house to discuss family planning,

1:14:06 it's actually not that high,

1:14:07 so it's mainly focused on

1:14:08 childhood immunization and you know things like that,

1:14:11 but hopefully we'll see how that goes.

1:14:14 It's a great question,

1:14:15 and

1:14:16 I don't think I have an answer based on my research,

1:14:19 but I'll give you an answer based on my working on this topic for

1:14:22 a pretty long time.

1:14:23 I think you don't want to think about all the cases in one category,

1:14:26 right?

1:14:26 So you want to

1:14:27 pick up,

1:14:28 like,

1:14:28 let's say there is a case where there's a very severe beating.

1:14:32 And

1:14:33 in the last I would say 10 years,

1:14:36 the cost of reporting has gone down.

1:14:38 So when you report,

1:14:39 there is a pretty specific protocol that officers

1:14:42 try to follow depending on what their constraints are,

1:14:45 and their immediate response in that case typically

1:14:48 is like you go and arrest the husband.

1:14:51 But there's also Supreme Court guidelines about reconciliation

1:14:55 that you don't want to kind of just go and do this

1:14:57 because there would be absolutely no reconciliation after that given also from

1:15:02 what we know about the family,

1:15:03 mother-in-laws,

1:15:04 father-in-laws,

1:15:05 things like that.

1:15:06 So

1:15:07 at least in the context of Bihar where I have spent most time,

1:15:11 a lot of these officers focus on reconciliation.

1:15:13 That is kind of like almost their primary goal,

1:15:16 but

1:15:17 there has been a pretty steady rise of counseling.

1:15:20 So almost every police station

1:15:22 is supposed to have a counselor,

1:15:24 but that counselor could be a police officer himself.

1:15:27 They don't necessarily have an external counselor,

1:15:30 but in that case they would bring the husbands and the family and

1:15:34 kind of make them go through some counseling that this is not OK.

1:15:37 And if you do this next time,

1:15:39 I'm going to arrest you and put you in jail.

1:15:40 So I think it varies a lot on case by case.

1:15:44 So that's all I can say.

1:15:47 Right,

1:15:47 let's take some more questions.

1:15:48 Let's start again from that side.

1:15:50 If someone has a question,

1:15:52 now

1:15:53 in the center,

1:15:54 the two out here,

1:15:55 let's,

1:15:56 let's get the mic here,

1:15:57 please at the back.

1:16:00 Hey,

1:16:00 uh,

1:16:01 I'm Isabella Brati.

1:16:02 Oops,

1:16:02 sorry,

1:16:03 uh,

1:16:04 I'm from Ernst and Young's Quantitative Economics and Statistics Unit,

1:16:07 and I have a question

1:16:09 about.

1:16:11 Um,

1:16:11 so,

1:16:11 so we heard that these interventions work.

1:16:14 Um,

1:16:15 do you know a way

1:16:17 how to make these interventions to become a budget line with a number next to them?

1:16:21 Do you,

1:16:21 is there a dialogue with governments

1:16:23 to make them,

1:16:25 um.

1:16:27 Part of the process and and help them uh develop their agency.

1:16:32 Um,

1:16:33 in these countries

1:16:35 and my other,

1:16:35 I'm sorry,

1:16:36 I have two questions yet.

1:16:37 The second one is a tiny one though,

1:16:39 so we are looking at,

1:16:40 um,

1:16:41 women's,

1:16:41 um,

1:16:42 standing on the job market and their situation.

1:16:45 Do you know of studies that looked at the long

1:16:48 term impact of these

1:16:50 interventions,

1:16:51 for example,

1:16:52 um,

1:16:53 pension poverty,

1:16:54 uh,

1:16:55 the,

1:16:55 the gap there between,

1:16:56 uh,

1:16:56 men and women.

1:16:58 That

1:16:59 that's it thank you and there's another

1:17:01 right there.

1:17:05 Thank you.

1:17:06 I am.

1:17:06 That's very loud,

1:17:07 uh,

1:17:07 Nicole Golden.

1:17:08 I'm currently a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council,

1:17:11 among some other consulting hats.

1:17:13 Uh,

1:17:13 quick question for,

1:17:13 is it Anuriti if I pronounce that right?

1:17:15 I'm just curious if you

1:17:18 looked at,

1:17:19 um,

1:17:20 any

1:17:22 impacts,

1:17:22 um,

1:17:23 in your study on

1:17:25 the women on

1:17:27 picking up any

1:17:28 educational or income generating activities,

1:17:31 um,

1:17:31 as a secondary or other impact,

1:17:33 um,

1:17:34 that you saw.

1:17:34 Thanks.

1:17:36 Any questions on this side of the room?

1:17:39 Uh,

1:17:40 2 of them,

1:17:40 OK.

1:17:42 Hi,

1:17:42 um,

1:17:43 thank you for the presentations.

1:17:45 Um,

1:17:46 I'm Gillam Sarkar and I'm a PhD student at American University.

1:17:50 I have a quick question for Professor Prakash.

1:17:54 Um,

1:17:56 so among your findings there was that

1:17:59 police patrols had no impact on overall street harassment.

1:18:04 Can you,

1:18:05 um,

1:18:05 like give us some of your insights that why

1:18:08 that may be the case?

1:18:10 Thank you.

1:18:13 Did you have a question right next to her?

1:18:15 All right.

1:18:17 Hi,

1:18:17 my name is Reva Restak.

1:18:19 I'm also a PhD student at AU and I used to be an RA at CGD.

1:18:24 Uh,

1:18:24 my question is about the garment factory worker

1:18:28 scorecards.

1:18:30 In light of recent Supreme Court decisions in the US,

1:18:33 I'm wondering if there's an equivalent in the US,

1:18:36 uh,

1:18:37 to

1:18:38 find de facto conditions about factory workers here

1:18:42 moving forward with the NLRB decision.

1:18:45 Thanks.

1:18:47 Great.

1:18:47 Uh,

1:18:48 should we turn back to our panel?

1:18:50 Rachel,

1:18:50 why don't I start with you?

1:18:52 Um,

1:18:53 uh,

1:18:54 thanks,

1:18:54 yeah,

1:18:54 so it's a,

1:18:55 it's a great question,

1:18:56 and I,

1:18:56 I confess to not being,

1:18:58 um,

1:18:58 not being very up on the,

1:18:59 on the US context,

1:19:01 um.

1:19:02 Um,

1:19:02 but,

1:19:03 but,

1:19:03 but I think that

1:19:05 the,

1:19:05 I mean,

1:19:06 I think that we in the US we have some kind of institutions that,

1:19:10 that do do kind of provide similar information already,

1:19:13 things like Glassdoor,

1:19:14 and so,

1:19:15 um,

1:19:16 and actually this relates to the question about scaling up so that,

1:19:19 um,

1:19:20 in,

1:19:20 you know,

1:19:20 when,

1:19:20 when we kind of think about how,

1:19:22 um,

1:19:22 you know,

1:19:23 such kind of these information repositories might.

1:19:25 Be scaled up.

1:19:26 One possibility is that,

1:19:28 you know,

1:19:29 once they,

1:19:30 once we kind of have this information that the garment

1:19:32 factories will want to do this themselves because that kind of

1:19:35 helps,

1:19:36 you know,

1:19:36 get workers in factories that are better matches for their specific preferences

1:19:40 and so that might be,

1:19:41 you know,

1:19:41 kind of,

1:19:42 um,

1:19:42 you know,

1:19:43 this might be something that industries would want to do on its own

1:19:46 or,

1:19:46 you know,

1:19:46 kind of a more an NGO or something that.

1:19:48 It's like,

1:19:49 like Glassdoor that's kind of funded,

1:19:50 um,

1:19:51 um,

1:19:51 you know,

1:19:52 kind of funded through some other external source,

1:19:54 and so I think those,

1:19:55 um,

1:19:56 I,

1:19:56 I think that,

1:19:57 you know,

1:19:57 that there we do see evidence of kind of demand for

1:20:00 this information that's kind of being provided in the US,

1:20:03 but

1:20:03 you know,

1:20:04 the it's possible that there is a role for the government in light of kind of,

1:20:07 you know,

1:20:08 specific legal,

1:20:09 um,

1:20:09 you know,

1:20:10 kind of specific legal changes.

1:20:12 Sure,

1:20:14 so I think one of the question was about,

1:20:15 uh,

1:20:16 take up,

1:20:16 right?

1:20:17 Uh you talked about

1:20:18 these interventions and take up by I guess the policymakers is that.

1:20:23 So,

1:20:23 uh,

1:20:24 I'll give you like a few,

1:20:25 I,

1:20:25 I think a lot depends on the timing

1:20:27 when you go and talk to them.

1:20:28 So suppose you go and talk to them towards the fag end of the,

1:20:31 when the

1:20:32 government's gonna change,

1:20:33 there's absolutely,

1:20:34 there's no room for conversation.

1:20:36 Uh,

1:20:37 so

1:20:38 I think the first key is like how do you

1:20:40 work together,

1:20:41 kind of co-create that policy.

1:20:43 I think that plays a very important role in terms of

1:20:47 whether it's

1:20:48 the person who is in charge or someone comes after that.

1:20:51 I think that co-creation has been pretty helpful.

1:20:53 I'll give you two examples where

1:20:55 in the

1:20:56 paper in Hyderabad where we found these results and we said,

1:20:59 look,

1:20:59 you know,

1:21:00 can we push for say surprise component that's uniform

1:21:03 policing because this is what the results show.

1:21:06 And it was a no starter.

1:21:08 Like,

1:21:08 no,

1:21:08 this is not gonna

1:21:10 work well with the government,

1:21:12 and I said that's

1:21:14 fine

1:21:14 if there's no room,

1:21:15 but he's like,

1:21:16 tell me a bigger lesson or what can we do?

1:21:18 And I said,

1:21:19 well,

1:21:20 the second part of the lab experiment talks about attitudes,

1:21:23 so you know,

1:21:23 can we think about a training program?

1:21:25 And he's like,

1:21:25 oh,

1:21:26 that's a no brainer,

1:21:26 it's very easy to implement.

1:21:28 So you kind of like you have to figure out what's the right message you want to talk,

1:21:31 and I think the takeup becomes easier.

1:21:33 And on the other hand,

1:21:34 in Bihar,

1:21:35 when we didn't even have results,

1:21:36 this is early January when I went with some

1:21:38 descriptives to the administrative head of the state,

1:21:42 and he looked at these slides and he said,

1:21:44 Oh,

1:21:44 can we implement this in the academy?

1:21:46 And I said,

1:21:46 Oh,

1:21:46 we don't have any evidence.

1:21:47 He's like,

1:21:48 no,

1:21:48 it doesn't matter,

1:21:49 so it looks good.

1:21:50 And he immediately made a call to the police academy and he said,

1:21:53 Can you implement this curriculum?

1:21:54 So I have like two examples.

1:21:56 Uh,

1:21:56 I have another example from education work where I worked in Zambia and uh.

1:22:02 There has been take up in other countries

1:22:04 and you have this question about why we don't

1:22:06 find and I think it's all about deterrence.

1:22:09 So the number of times you make an arrest,

1:22:12 I think if that number is not high,

1:22:14 it's just not going to be enough and I think

1:22:18 that project was a big learning because we had lots

1:22:21 of conversation with a very open minded police commissioner,

1:22:25 and he said look.

1:22:27 Sexual harassment is very important.

1:22:29 I care about this.

1:22:30 Is this my number one priority?

1:22:31 And the answer is no.

1:22:33 Number one is like,

1:22:34 you know,

1:22:34 in Hyderabad,

1:22:35 the religious tensions becomes the number one.

1:22:38 Like

1:22:39 it's there.

1:22:40 They have resources,

1:22:41 everything,

1:22:42 but that's not number one,

1:22:43 right?

1:22:43 So and I think one has to understand the constraint,

1:22:46 but they had a program.

1:22:48 It was well monitored,

1:22:49 and I think there was a lot of learning,

1:22:51 but I think it's a lot about veterans and what's the frequency of these arrests.

1:22:55 Thanks Nishid uh Anu.

1:22:57 Yeah,

1:22:57 so to answer your question,

1:22:59 uh,

1:22:59 we don't,

1:23:00 so our end line was 10 months after,

1:23:02 you know,

1:23:02 we,

1:23:02 the intervention started,

1:23:03 and during that time period we don't find any impact on education or employment.

1:23:08 So education we were expecting because

1:23:10 typically once,

1:23:11 you know,

1:23:11 uh,

1:23:12 women are married,

1:23:12 it's,

1:23:13 it's they're not going back to the school to such a large extent,

1:23:16 uh,

1:23:16 for the labor market again it could be that,

1:23:18 you know,

1:23:18 you need to wait a bit longer because,

1:23:20 uh,

1:23:20 we do see a decrease in pregnancy,

1:23:22 but it's not.

1:23:23 It depends on for how long that,

1:23:24 you know,

1:23:25 the birth spacing goes up,

1:23:26 but at at least in our study we don't find anything.

1:23:29 Uh,

1:23:29 we are now going back,

1:23:31 um,

1:23:32 to the sample and trying to see whether there are any longer term impacts,

1:23:35 for instance,

1:23:35 on mental health,

1:23:36 you know,

1:23:36 because a lot of,

1:23:37 we got a lot of questions about,

1:23:38 you know,

1:23:39 given that you are so socially isolated,

1:23:41 it may actually impact women's mental health,

1:23:42 and so we are collecting data on that and

1:23:45 hopefully we'll be able to

1:23:46 say something on that,

1:23:48 uh,

1:23:48 and to on the question of the impact of interventions.

1:23:51 I think

1:23:52 at least in my experience I find that researchers are perhaps not really good at

1:23:56 working with policymakers or engaging with policymakers

1:23:59 and focusing on actually trying to

1:24:01 uh you know get the research we do turned into policy,

1:24:04 you know,

1:24:04 maybe the focus sometimes is more on let's say

1:24:06 publications and and the audience can be very different.

1:24:10 um

1:24:10 I think in my experience what I found is of course

1:24:13 there are projects where you're directly working with the policy maker,

1:24:15 right?

1:24:16 So that's a different opportunity they get to see how you're doing.

1:24:19 Research and maybe the observe impact in a much more direct,

1:24:22 you know,

1:24:22 immediate way and then it's much easier

1:24:25 when you're not working with the policymaker.

1:24:27 Then you really have to figure out how do I

1:24:29 convey the findings that I have for those policymakers.

1:24:32 They are probably not going to read the American Economic Review and learn about

1:24:37 research.

1:24:37 So I think we need to find ways to communicate and disseminate results to a

1:24:41 broader audience.

1:24:42 So for instance,

1:24:43 in the case of India,

1:24:44 there is

1:24:45 ideas for India.

1:24:46 It's a.

1:24:46 From where you can publish your

1:24:48 research findings for maybe a a policy audience and I do know several

1:24:52 uh you know,

1:24:53 administrative officers who actually read work and

1:24:55 then when I published something they've communicated

1:24:57 so I think that's one the other,

1:24:59 at least

1:25:00 being at the bank we do end up working with,

1:25:03 uh,

1:25:03 you know,

1:25:04 governments and,

1:25:04 and that I think either on active projects where it is already being scaled up

1:25:09 and then research helps figure out exactly the nuances

1:25:12 of that project or how to improve implementation.

1:25:15 and that's helpful.

1:25:16 And the last thing I would say is I've also found that

1:25:19 yes,

1:25:19 presenting a research heavy,

1:25:21 you know,

1:25:22 causally identified study,

1:25:23 yes,

1:25:23 is useful,

1:25:24 but sometimes,

1:25:25 you know,

1:25:25 a very basic exercise is sometimes even more useful.

1:25:29 So I once presented the baseline findings of

1:25:33 a very basic survey to a state government in India,

1:25:35 and

1:25:36 it was really,

1:25:36 I find,

1:25:37 impactful because.

1:25:38 They didn't have much data on on the types of things that we were collecting data on,

1:25:42 and I think

1:25:42 that itself,

1:25:43 you know,

1:25:44 helped them

1:25:45 be more open to the idea,

1:25:46 OK,

1:25:46 now we can do research and maybe do an impact evaluation,

1:25:49 which they were much more than,

1:25:50 you know,

1:25:51 receptive to afterwards.

1:25:52 Thank you,

1:25:53 Anu,

1:25:53 and thank you everyone for this really,

1:25:55 really

1:25:56 great discussion

1:25:57 and to the audience for the very useful questions.

1:26:00 Thanks everyone

1:26:01 and uh.

1:26:03 Our next session

1:26:04 starts in 15 minutes and uh that's gonna be an

1:26:08 economic inclusion of the year.

1:26:09 So thanks again.

showAllTimestamps
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transcript
All right. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome back to the sessions. My name is Shamilawe. I work for the World Bank, and I'm very happy to welcome all of you to our session today on norms and other constraints to women's economic inclusion. We'll have 4 really amazing presentations over the next 1 hour. Where our speakers will tell us about the role of norms, the role of networks, and the role of neighborhoods in limiting access to opportunity for women. Uh, I will introduce each of the four speakers, and then they will speak for about 15 minutes or 14 minutes each as they desire. And then we'll turn to all of you for questions and answers. So our speaker who's gonna speak first is Pamela uh Jaquila, who's a professor of economics at Williams College and a non-resident fellow at the CGD. After her will be Anukriti, who's a senior economist at the World Bank's Research Group, and, uh, she's doing, uh, and before joining the bank she was assistant professor at Boston College. After Anu's presentation we will have Nishit Prakash, uh, give his talk. Nishi is a professor of economics and public policy at Northeastern University and he has been a visiting fellow at Yale, Columbia, and MIT. Uh, following Nishit we will have Rachel Heath who will give her talk. Rachel is an associate professor in the economics department at the University of Washington, uh, and she did, uh, I did not know you did a postdoc at the World Bank's research department. So let's start with Pamela, but before I start, uh, handing over you, uh, the mic to you, uh, I've been asked that, uh, for all our online viewers. You are fully able to participate in the questions and answers uh during the panel. Send your questions through YouTube, through the LinkedIn live stream, or email events at CGDev.org. And for folks in the room, please keep your cell phones and other devices on silent. Pamela, over to you. Here it goes. OK, hi, thank you very much for joining us today. Um, I, it's a real pleasure to be back here at CGD. Um, so what I'm going to do in this talk is I'm not going to present one specific paper. I'm going to talk about, uh, some work I've done, most of it joint with Dave Evans at the IDB, uh, reviewing the literature on early childhood interventions in low and middle income countries. And so what I'd like to do today is to talk about the intersection. Between early childhood and the constraints on women and gender norms and sort of present some regularities of that body of literature and talk about how they relate to norms within the household and how thinking about them in terms of norms within the household can change the way that we view the results in this space and so I want to start. Just to motivate a little bit, there are a few things that we know as points of departure. So the first is that there is tremendous gender inequality both in high income countries and in low income countries, in the workplace and in the home. So in both rich and poor countries, women are less likely to be in the labor force than men in almost every country around the world. And for women who do work, they often receive lower pay for comparable work. And so, and this is true, you know, this varies across the income distribution, but this is broadly true around the world. And it's, we know that a big piece of this gender gap, and this builds on some of the research that we saw this morning, a big piece of this gender gap is about women's unequal care work burden in the home. So women do most of the childcare around the world and obviously all of the pregnancy and childbirth, and they that. This places constraints on the types of jobs that they can take. This places constraints on how focused on work they are and on their profitability. And again this is true in low income settings and also in high income settings. Now at the same time we as development economists, we know that early childhood, which includes in most countries a period where children are not yet in school, is a really critical, critically important time for making investments in human capital. Contribute to your ability to learn, meet your developmental potential, and you know, be productive in the workforce throughout your life course. And so we are very interested in a broad class of interventions that will get that will increase the amount of investment in particularly poor and vulnerable children's human capital early in life, and we know that this, the failure to do this can create poverty traps both for households and for countries as a whole. So this creates this tension where women bear a disproportionate burden of care work responsibilities in the home, and yet we as development economists actually want households to do more with their young children, and that can make it, that can create problems where we risk exacerbating these types of gender inequalities in the name of relaxing this poverty trap. And so what I want to do today is talk a bit about what we've learned from the literature on ECD interventions and in particular what we have learned about women and about households from that body of work. So this is, this is a figure from a paper that I wrote with Dave Evans and Heather Knauer, and it's just showing you the sort of explosion of literature. Evaluating ECD interventions in low and middle income countries. This is growing over time and what's in blue here is that until quite recently, almost all of these evaluations focused exclusively on children. So even though when we think about what's going on in early childhood, it is often the households and particularly the mothers who mediate these interventions. Make them effective by changing their behavior and investing more in their kids. We have until very recently basically ignored the impacts of these interventions on women and also on men in the household and other people in the household. This is changing over time though, and we increasingly now have enough of a body of work that we can start to draw some broad lessons from it. So I want to talk about 3 regularities and a little bit about how we can see them in the context of norms within the household. So the first regularity, the first result that's coming out of this literature is about the impacts of center-based childcare. So when I talk about center-based childcare, I mean both daycare for children kind of ages 0 to 2 and preschool, whether it's academic, preschool, pre-primary education and through the government or informal or private pre-primary. So there are a couple of regularities that from this literature that we can now be pretty confident about that we would not have known in advance would be true. And so the first is that even though there are ongoing concerns about the quality of daycare and pre-primary. Low and middle income countries, in general, these types of programs, center-based care, is good for child development. It varies depending on the counterfactual, but in broad terms, these policies are either weakly good or or significantly substantially good for kids. This, and they also tend to in many contexts increase women's labor supply. So this suggests that these types of center-based policies, and this came up in the earlier discussion this morning, that these types of center-based daycare and preschool interventions may be win-win policies, but a regularity that's coming out as we build the evidence base on these interventions is that, uh, the impacts on women are not necessarily. As large and as consistent as we might expect, and one thing that we do seem to see in a lot of contexts, a growing number of contexts, when we actually look at it, is that giving households access to childcare is also increasing men's labor force participation and men's income. Now this is interesting, because it isn't the case that what is happening is men are doing less childcare work. When the kids go into childcare, and the reason we know that's true is that in most of these settings, men aren't doing any childcare to begin with, OK, and so what's happening here is that we can think about this in terms of some sort of re-optimization within the household, but when a household gets access to childcare, they often take advantage of it, and this changes how all the members of the household allocate their time. And this could be good. This could be a great, you know, economic theory could predict that this is a re-optimization that is good for everyone, but it also raises concerns about whether what is really happening is that when women get time freed up from childcare, they're just forced to spend it on other domestic tasks that the husbands don't do. And so this raises an issue that we. Only now are being able are able to even think about speaking to, which is, do these interventions actually make women better off and how do they change allocation of tasks and allocation of domestic work within the household and the problem in answering this question in theory as we. See more and more expansions of childcare, we could answer this, but most of the time we don't ever look. So a vanishingly small number of evaluations of these types of interventions actually measure outcomes for men. So basically we just don't know what they're doing. We don't know what's going on. OK, so that's regularity in puzzle number one. I think this is, uh, so this leads to this question of do these types of interventions, which we hope would be win-win, actually make women better off, or are they just being stuck doing other types of domestic work, uh, once their children are in childcare? OK. The second point I want to make is about another class of early childhood interventions. These are, uh, it's actually two types of interventions, group-based parenting classes for women and also home visits from child development professionals. This is a type of intervention that for a long time has been recognized as something that can be very valuable to, uh, to children, to increase the stimulation that they get, translating into benefits in terms of their human capital and their income. What's interesting when you look at the whole literature, all of these evaluations, is that there's actually really robust evidence that these types of interventions in a wide variety of country contexts improve women's mental health and their subjective well-being. So this is something that you know we've seen it, we've seen it in South Asia, we've seen this in Latin America, we've seen this in Africa for both home visit interventions and group based parenting classes. The question that I ask about this literature, why I think this is really interesting is the question of why this is the case. So one simple story is that parenting education improves women's self-efficacy in terms of how good of a mother they are, and that's really great, and that could be part of the story. Or the whole story, but what we know is that women, uh, young mothers in many low and middle income countries have very low, very weak social networks. This is particularly true in regions of with patrolocal norms and restrictions on women's mobility. And if we look, I've had conversations with a number of you. When we look at the data, the rates of depression among young women and mothers in low and middle income countries are often staggeringly scarily high. And so what I think could explain this is that these types of interventions that were designed to be about improving mothering and parenting and be childhood interventions are. Equally valuable as interventions that facilitate the creation and the strengthening of women's social networks, and I think that's again something that we don't yet really have the data that would allow us to look at because it isn't something we've been looking at as an outcome from these types of interventions, but it's something, a way in which these interventions may be equally effective at outcomes we didn't pay attention to at all that they weren't designed to target. OK. My last regularity uh is about fathers. So fathers, they're there, you know, they're instrumental in the in the creation of children, and yet when it comes to what they do, it's often staggeringly little. So there's an interesting and you know I say this with all due respect to the fathers in the room, including the one who's the father of my children. There are many fathers who do lots of things, uh. But there's a rich literature in demography and anthropology and economics that shows that what's interesting in low and middle income country contexts is that when fathers are absent there is often surprisingly little impact on child survival and child outcomes, and the data we have on what what fathers do in terms of early childhood stimulation, the best data we have comes from UNICEF's. Mixed surveys, it shows that fathers do very, very little engaging with young children. They do less than mothers in almost every country in the world. They also do less than other adults who happen to be around. They do very little of this kind of active parenting and so recently there have been a number of interventions that have tried to change this, that have tried to get fathers involved, uh, and so. Uh, And so this is, I mean this is an area where until 10 years ago there was, I think, one published evaluation of an intervention about parenting that targeted fathers in low and middle income countries. The literature has expanded rapidly so that now there are, you know, 15 perhaps. It's still a very small literature, but it's growing very rapidly. And we're starting to again see a couple of regularities about it. And so the first is that it is very difficult to get fathers to even show up for these interventions. So for every study that successfully engages fathers and changes their parenting knowledge, there are 2 studies that got bogged down in the field and never got to the results stage because you simply couldn't get dads to come. Uh, and then the second regularity is that a well-designed intervention in the right context often can change father's knowledge, but that this almost never translates into changes in behavior. And so it is very, very difficult, very, very costly to get fathers engaged, and when we do get fathers engaged, what's interesting is we see that when we get fathers, uh, when we change fathers' knowledge, it spills over a little bit onto mothers, and that can change mother's behavior in some contexts, but. Fathers' behavior is very difficult to move, and when we focus on fathers, we risk, in fact, missing an opportunity to engage women in what has traditionally been a female dominant dominated space parenting. And so as this literature grows, of course, hopefully we will continue to explore new types of interventions, but for me this raises the question of whether we should even be trying to work in this literature, whether we should be trying as hard as we are. To get fathers more engaged and whether if we do so that's actually constructive or whether we risk bringing fathers and their opinions and their uh you know unequal gender norms into the space of parenting which has traditionally been the domain of women. So for me these are three different puzzles about regularities we see in the literature that. Are somewhat surprising, but we can see them in the context of unequal norms within the household. These are questions that we have the potential to answer. So there's a huge, a huge set of evaluations, and to the, to some extent some of these questions are things that one could go back and answer if you looked at the data in the right way, if you looked. For the right types of heterogeneity, but we haven't answered yet, uh, and hopefully moving forward as we continue to focus on early childhood as a really important domain for development interventions, we'll be better able to try to go into it with this model in mind of unequal norms in the household and women's, uh, women's the barriers they face in building their social networks and exerting autonomy and think about, uh. How that would translate into the set of outcomes that we measure and how that changes the way we think these interventions are likely working. OK, I will stop there. Thank you very much. Thank you. I know I would too. I'm not sure if this is moving. It'll show up, it'll show up. It's quite a delay. 15 seconds. That is. Thanks Pam for that segue and now we're going to move to a slightly different aspect of gender equality which is, uh, women's access to social networks. So you know we all know that social networks are significantly important for various, you know, dimensions of well-being. So it's, you know, we all know that we, we get a lot of information about jobs, about business opportunities. From our networks, you know, they help us smooth consumption, they insure us, and these are especially important in countries and contexts which have you missing markets or missing institutions. So today I'm going to focus on a low and middle income country which is India, where I have some research on women's social networks. And what the literature has shown us is that women typically have fewer social connections than men, and especially when you look at their social connections outside the household. So, and if you look at interactions that women have with other people on more private and typically stigmatized topics such as family planning and reproductive health, these interactions become even smaller. Um, and, and this combined with the fact that there's a significant homorpholy by gender, by which I mean that women tend to have connections with other women and men tend to have connections with other men, then puts women at sort of a double disadvantage in terms of access to networks, access to information, and so on. So what we do in, uh, uh, you know, so, so let me, before I go to the two papers that I'm going to talk about, give you a little bit of context since I'm going to talk about women in India. Um, so this is probably not a surprise to this audience that women in India are significantly constrained as far as mobility is concerned. So if you look at data from demographic health. Surveys, a very high percentage of women report, especially married women, that they are not allowed to visit places outside the home alone, so they always have to have somebody accompany them, and you know there's some numbers here, so 60%, for instance, are not allowed to go alone to the market, uh, health facility, or places outside the the village or community. And this is correlated with the fact that a lot of them practice, you know, covering their head and faces through Pha and Kunat. They are not engaged with the labor market, so there's significantly, uh, you know, large gender gaps in labor force participation, and then that act basically means that women are less likely to go outside of the home to even work. You might say that we have access to digital technology, so maybe women can engage with other people through phones, but if you look at the mobile gender gap in India, it's also quite high. So in urban areas women are more likely to obviously have phones, but overall you know only 33% of Indian women have access to a phone. So this makes for a very socially isolated existence and. Can obviously have negative consequences which I'm going to talk about. Uh, one thing that I hear a lot about, uh, women's social networks is access to self-help groups or other sort of collectives. Uh, while that's a very important way in which women can engage with other people, especially other women, uh, if you look at the data, only 20% of women say that they are part of a group or a collective. So while that's a promising. Avenue that really does not serve all women and uh lastly, the interactions that women do have with other people are heavily regulated, so especially family members like their husbands or mothers-in-law that I'm going to talk about a lot more in detail are regulating who women talk to and whether they even have access to places outside the home. So for instance, 22% of women. In the demographic Health Survey of India reported that they are not permitted to even meet their female friends, right, so this is a context, and this is more so in rural India, maybe in certain parts of India, and so it's not, you know, everywhere, but it does tell us that there is a significant degree of social isolation and now what the consequences of that are, how can we correct it is something that I'm going to talk about. So, uh, you know, so why, you know, of course we can see that this is problematic, but the context that I'm going to talk about today is women's access to family planning and reproductive health services, and that's a very heavily gendered sort of topic because even though family planning is important for both men and women in this context, access to family planning is especially more, it's considered more a woman's sort of job to, you know, figure out whether to use family planning or not, uh, so you know some people say that OK, women may not have access to their own. But what about their husbands, right? So their husbands are well connected and maybe that helps. So while it's true that yes, that can help, but when you talk about these gendered sort of topics, there is very little interaction between men and women. So if men don't talk to other women about family planning and reproductive health, then it's unlikely that that information is going to spread through husbands and go to their wives, right? So this can have very severe negative consequences for for women's information even about family planning or even access to family planning. And uh another uh sort of so husband networks in that sense are not a perfect substitute and the importance of family members, as will become clearer in uh in a slide is also very important here because these family members, as I said, can be barriers or enablers, and if they are barriers then that can. Of, you know, be an additional and if they have reasons to constrain women from going outside the house because of, let's say, norms about women's mobility or because they have different preferences or incentives to prevent women from going out, then that can sort of, you know, exacerbate the problem that I'm talking about. So, uh, I'm going to share some findings from, uh, a project that is the Jaunpur Social Network Study, uh, which we conducted along with my co-authors, uh, Kalina Here Almanza at UIUC and Mahesh Kara at Boston University, and we basically went to, uh, one of the Indian states which is Uttar Pradesh. It's the most populated state in India, uh, as some of you know, uh, it's, if we only looked at population, it would be the 5th largest. Largest country in the world if it were a country, so this is a very big part of the world, and we collected data from 28 villages in Jaunpur, and we surveyed 671 women who were, and we had certain criteria we adopted, so these had to be married women, uh, relatively young because we were talking about family planning, so 18 to 30 years old, and they had to have at least one child at baseline because otherwise family planning take up is very low. And we collected data on women's social interactions and so we we knew that women would obviously engage with their husbands about family planning and potentially also their mothers-in-law, so we asked them about people other than these two individuals who they engage with on various topics. So you'll hear me say something called general peers. So these are. The people that women engage with on any sort of issue, for instance, children's illness, schooling, health, work, or financial support, so these are just people that you talk to about various things. And then we also specifically asked about close peers because it's a more private topic about women, about people who they talk to about fertility, family planning, and reproductive health. And what we find is that in both these dimensions our sample women were very highly socially isolated, so an average woman in our sample said she only engages with two other people other than her husband and mother-in-law about anything, and this is two people in the entire district where she lives, right? So this is contrary to the image we might have that all women have, you know, many other females. Friends, that's not the case. Uh, and if you focus on close peers, so these like people with whom you have these private conversations, that becomes even less. So just one person on average. In fact, one third of our sample said that they do not have any close peers in their district, and 22%, uh, uh, don't have any close peers anywhere irrespective of your district or elsewhere. The other characteristics we found was that most of the people that they did speak to tend to be their relatives, right? So these could be they may either live inside the household or maybe outside people like sisters-in-law. So sisters-in-law tend to be quite important, especially in this context, and again, almost everyone, in fact, 100% of their social connections were other women, um, all of them were from the same religion and 94% belong to the same caste. So there's a lot of homophily by gender, religion, and caste in this context. So the first paper we wrote from our baseline data was about mothers-in-law and whether they have any influence on women's access to social networks. So what we find is that women who co-reside with their mothers-in-law have 20% fewer close peers in the village and 37 fewer close peers outside the household, right? And so this is a correlation, and we also find that co-residence with mother-in-law significantly reduced. Uses women's ability to access places outside the home, so which is consistent with the fact that you know they don't have access to networks. Uh, we did not find any such influence of fathers-in-law or sisters-in-law, uh, so it's not just that, you know, you have in-laws who prevent you. So mother-in-law in some in this context, which I think is not surprising to South Asians, uh, is, is a significant barrier, uh, and we also then, you know, try to sort of this is a correlation, but we try to in the papers. Show that this is actually a causal result and then we were curious about why is it that mothers-in-law are this restrictive influence. So in the context of family planning, what we find is that it has to do with the discordance in the fertility preferences of the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law. So if the mother-in-law wants her daughter-in-law to have more children than the daughter-in-law wants, we find that this negative influence is stronger if the mother-in-law approves. Disapproves of family planning, then this negative influence is stronger, and if the husband is away, then again we find that this is stronger, right? So what this tells us is that the mother-in-law is worried about the daughter-in-law adopting family planning or learning family planning contrary to what she wants her to do, and then as a result she prevents her from accessing people or you know places outside the home. Now this is a problem because in this context we have a high. Unmet need for family planning. So in our sample, half of the women said that they don't want to have any more children, but only 19% were using a method of family planning. So essentially what this means is that women who live with their mother-in-law then have fewer close peers outside the household are then less likely to visit places outside the home, family planning clinics, and use methods of modern contraception. So that was the first result we find. And then what we did subsequently was design a randomized control trial where we wanted to see how can we circumvent this uh this negative influence of the mother-in-law and expand women's ability to access or use the support of their peers to access places outside the home. So what we did was we, we had an RCT where we split the sample into 3 groups. So one group was the control group, and then the remaining women. Were given access to a voucher for family planning at a local clinic, right? So, so let me first describe the own voucher group, what we call. So own voucher group basically gets a voucher which enables, gives them ₹2000 or $30 worth of family planning services. They can use it for a period of 10 months at a local clinic. And in addition, the second treatment group got the same voucher, but also we told them that if you brought a friend to the clinic that. Friend will also become eligible to receive the same voucher, right, so basically the difference, so in both cases the treated woman is getting exactly the same incentive to go to the family planning clinic, but in one case she's also able to leverage this friend voucher to incentivize someone else to go with her, right? So we did not restrict who she can bring with her to the clinic, but given that this is the context we're working in, we think it's mainly going to be young women who are in need of family planning. So what we find is that both vouchers increased likelihood of visiting a family planning clinic, so clearly financial incentives in this case or financial constraints matter, and in both cases we find that they're more likely to visit without their husbands and mothers-in-law, right, so, so it reduces their dependence on them to access the family planning clinic. However, we find, and which we were quite happy to see, is that the Bring a friend voucher was significantly more successful than the own voucher for women whose mother-in-law was more opposed to family planning at baseline. So this suggests that having this ability to take a friend along enabled these women to overcome opposition from their mothers-in-law and access places outside the home. Um, in fact, the own voucher, which is typically what family planning programs do, uh, was completely ineffective for these women. So without the support of this other peer to go with to the family planning clinic, they were not able to access it. Uh, and you know, consistent with this, we find that modern method use and, uh, pregnancy rates also decreased for women who received the bring a friend, uh, voucher. In addition, so since the paper was also trying to improve women's access to social connections, we find that our Bring a Friend voucher was able to increase women's number of social connections, especially those outside her home. So basically what it meant was if you already had some friends, it improved your engagement with them because now you maybe are more likely to talk to them about family planning. You have this voucher, or if you did not have any suitable peers, you could go to a neighbor and tell them about this and maybe in the process of this form a social connection with them and discuss family planning. So we do find that this effect is entirely driven by the bring a friend voucher, which suggests that because even own voucher women could have done that, you know, but since they did not have anything to offer to the peer, it was less effective. Um, and then lastly, uh, we also find consistent with the, uh, previous literature that having more peers did improve, uh, women's, uh, stigma about family planning, right? So if peers can provide support, for instance, to counter stigma related to mental health in a similar manner, what we find is that Bring a Friend voucher enabled women to reduce the stigma they have about access to family planning. Uh, so what does this tell us about policy and research? So first of all, what we found in the process of writing this paper that we really do not have much data on women's social networks. So typically when we collect this, it's at the household level, uh, or you may pick one person, the head of the household, and ask, uh, typically it's a him about the, you know, people they are connected to, uh, and so I have some work ongoing work with Ishani where we're trying to. See what is the global cross country evidence on this, but I think it's very, uh, you know, important for us maybe to utilize these large data set, uh, that like DHS and so on to, to add maybe a few simple questions that can tell us more about women's social networks. But putting that aside, I think what this paper also tells us is that uh that we need to think about ways in which we can expand women's ability to. Interact with other people. Yes, women's groups are one such option, but maybe there are other ways we can leverage or incentivize, uh, women to connect with other women or even other men, right? And, and in this case we find that sisters-in-law are, uh, are actually a very, you know, useful avenue, uh, given that one there is less like there's supposed to be less stigma about interacting with family members. Many of. These sisters-in-law may either live with you or maybe in the same village as you, so I think that's how to promote that engagement is something that more research can be done on. But of course you know there are, you know, we need to think about strategic interactions within households. Maybe there is intra-household rivalry or there's intra-household bargaining issues we need to think about with sisters-in-law, but yeah, I'll stop there. I I know. The ship over to you. It'll take about 15 seconds. Just need to wait. Doing a psych experiment Thanks for the invitation and, you know, to be part of this great conference. Uh, and I was thinking about the order of the presentation and I, I totally see why it makes sense because Anu sets the stage for Another constraint that I'll be talking about today, so today's talk is going to focus about sexual harassment in public space and police patrolling. I'll be talking about two of the papers which is part of a larger agenda on this topic of gender-based violence with Maria Mikhaila who is here, Sophie Amaral and Girja Borkar at the World Bank. So. To set the framework, there are 4 key components. The first being what's the problem, and I think for this audience it's very easy that violence against women is a huge problem no matter which country you look at. But the biggest challenge not just being the problem, it's it's the underreporting. And even though we see these statistics and feel that this is a big problem, it hasn't been very easy to kind of convince. A lot of partners that, hey, this is a big problem because the response is like, oh, if it's a big problem, why don't we see that in the data, right? And second is, well, you people don't report. And second being, uh, if this is not a problem here, it might be a problem in some other city or some other district. So this is kind of like my engagement with a lot of the policymakers. I'm going to talk about the problem in two particular contexts. There has been some really nice paper talking about the consequences. I think that's fairly well established, talks about how these things affect mobility, education, female labor force participation, and so and so. Today's talk is going to focus a lot on the solutions. On one hand, I think there's lots of data about gender-based violence and intimate partner violence, but we don't know a lot about sexual harassment in public space, so that's completely kind of missing. And the business as usual is we expect women to report such crimes, so we should be relying on the admin data. That doesn't work because of the underreporting. So today I'll be talking about a novel method to measure sexual harassment in public space and talk about evidence from two interventions, both in India, and it's worth pointing out that it's not as if policymakers or police have not been thinking about this. There has been lots of Innovative, I would say things that have been tried out in India, including women help desk in Madhya Pradesh has also been studied by researchers, all women police stations, police patrolling, women justice centers in Peru, and various ways to reduce the costs of registering crime. It's not just like you have to physically walk to the police station, which is very costly. India started something called Dial 112, so there has been, I would say, lots of progress in that. And then it goes back to like you know when we started working on these papers, we started thinking like there's something missing, there's something much more important here. It's more like structural reforms and and one aspect that we are going to talk about is going to be training programs, so to what extent these training programs are effective and then none of these things is possible without this I would say strong trust. that you build with your partners, including the police or various state police in India and in many cases co-creating solutions which is kind of a lot easier to convince them to scale up. So the, uh, so I'll be talking about two talks. The first is going to be about, uh, an intervention that where we partner with Hyderabad City Police in the Indian state of Telangana. And back then in 2014, I would say it was pretty advanced to think about a specialized police force which is called She Teams with the sole objective of addressing gender sexual harassment in public space. And the second is, although they don't quite overlap because we pretty much started our team working on the two projects almost at the same time, but. This is about a training program. It's a very innovative training program that we co-designed with NGOs, lawyers, and the police, which uses techniques from Theater of the Oppressed. This is a very interactive, expressive arts training program to study to what extent it can reform police when it comes to gender-based violence. So the first paper is co-authored with Girija, Sofia Amaral, both at the World Bank, Mika here. Uh, Anjani Kumar, who, uh, was a police commissioner back then, uh, and Nathan Fiala, who was my colleague at University of Connecticut. So what do we do in this paper? So it's a program where what we did is we partnered with the police and we convinced them to vary the presence and the visibility of the police. So in the interest of the time, I'll skip some of the details of the intervention, but what it did is they already had a program where the police shows up at these hot spots as an undercover, means like they wear civil clothes so that nobody can identify. who they are and it's a lot easier to make arrests. So intuitively I think they were spot on. And then it took us, I would say 2 to 3 years to almost have this conversation and kind of convince them like, look, why don't we put another arm which is about make them visible, which is make them go in uniforms. We tried this out in 350 hotspots and then How do you measure street harassment, and I think it's pretty obvious that we could not have relied on administrative data. So what we did is we trained enumerators who would go on the hotspots and actually observe sexual harassment that's happening and kind of code it, and they did not know anything about the experiment. And uh then we wanted to also understand, you know, I mean, in fact, uh, this, this was a part which uh this project happened uh in the COVID hit and we could not collect a lot of data. So we kind of went back like we had results and we thought about like, OK, why do, why are we finding these results and uh since we did not end up doing. A lot of data collection due to COVID. We came up with this idea about the lab experiments, and maybe we can do a lab experiment kind of kind of create very similar scenarios for the police to understand why are we finding these effects, and we had kind of two questions here that do you think police can detect these crimes? And, and I can't talk on behalf of my co-answers because I was like pretty clear that they cannot detect this crime because it's a fast moving crime. I was absolutely wrong and why they don't sanction and under what circumstances they can sanction these crimes, and we wanted to also study their attitudes towards gender-based violence. So I'll skip the context, but Hyderabad is no different, probably maybe slightly safer than other parts of India. So we did a survey where we found that 29% face some form of sexual harassment and 87% take some kind of preventive measure. So as I said, I would say it's a very I would say forward looking program. They started in 2014 with this kind of core activity that they have a separate team. This is part of the police, but it's a separate team, very independent, and what they did is they would do these undercover policing, and it was kind of fairly monitored at the top. And a key component of this patrolling was they had at least one female officer in the team, so that's kind of one important aspect. So as I said, we spent almost 2 years tweaking the program, so they were expanding the program to another 350 hotspots. So that's where we came in. And we convinced them to have this kind of uniformed policing, and on average these teams would visit hotspots 2 to 3 times in a week, and each visit lasted around 15 to 20 minutes. It's not a lot, but I would say it was still quite a bit given that you almost had nothing before, and this lasted 6 months. That's the maximum time we convinced them to stick to a plan. So this is, uh, I'll skip this part, but, and I'm going to skip the design and kind of talk about what are the questions. So we wanted to study what's the impact of this program and what's driving these results. So these are like two things that we were interested in studying. So the key finding that was a big surprise, I would say to us and also the police. So whether it be it uniformed policing or undercover policing, it actually had no effect on aggregate measures of sexual harassment. It was kind of a really big surprise for the police commissioner who's also a co-author, to accept the result. And then we looked into harassment by two categories which we follow the Indian penal code and we kind of divide this into milder sexual harassment and severe. Milder means like whistling, catcalling, and by the way, these are illegal, so there are Indian penal code and in fact it's punishable. And then you have the severe one which is touching and groping, and what we find is these uniformed police patrolling reduces sexual harassment by 27%. So for the severe form, but nothing for the milder form. And we also see this being reflected in women's behavior at the hot spot when their sexual harassment is happening, the way they would approach this change, so their preventive behavior change. So this is like the two key findings and as I said undercover. No effects whether be it mild or severe. However, it's worth pointing out that the police were spot on because we did find more arrests in undercover arm because it's easier to arrest, but it did not translate into a reduction in sexual harassment. Now what's driving the result? So first, it's being driven by deterrence. So when you see an officer in uniform, it's a pure deterrence effect. So that's the key finding. And the next one was very important, I would say as a researcher that the attitude matters a lot. It means if these officers in the lab experiment what we found that officers who have I would say more progressive or more harsher attitude towards gender, so they actually act on both severe and milder forms. So that's kind of the two reasons why we find these effects. Now then goes this other study which is in Bihar, which also happens to be my home state. This is with Mika, Sophia, and Girri, and I would say. is a project which I would say has taken a lot of our social capital, so we did this in 12 districts in Bihar. The government changed. Many police chiefs changed over time, and here the key the key intervention was to test a novel training program because most of the training program when these officers are hired. They have this one time training and nothing happens after that. So it's a it's a program which is more interactive. It's not about like I'm going to present slides and you're going to attend like the kind of training we take in colleges, right? So it's not like that. It's very interactive and we wanted to study the impact of the program on both officers' technical and soft skills and uh spillover so. The key message is we targeted all the key decision makers at the police station level. That was the target, and it was all male officers. So this pedagogy is the novelty here. So there are various things they try to target like technical skills, truthfulness. When a victim comes to complain, do you believe the victim? Victim blaming, empathy, attitude towards gender-based violence, discrimination. It's a pretty broad 3 day training program. Now I'm going to just point out one aspect. So here it became a very emotional training program because officers are guided through different ways in which their past behavior were harmful to the women. So this became kind of like a fairly emotional part of the training. This is kind of the pedagogy. These are some pictures. So this is like snake and ladder, do's and don'ts as an officer. Uh, circle of influence as a police officer. Uh, and there's a bit of a story behind this handbook. Like we piloted the training program, and after the pilot, when we had the focus group meeting, the officer said, It was really fun, but what do we do? And we came back and we're like, wait a second, we had a 3 day training program and he was saying we don't know what to do. So we consulted senior police officers and it was a very important lesson for me. It's like. You guys don't know what you're doing, so with the police you have to give them an action book. Without that it's not going to work. So we created this kind of a really fun action book which was about if someone comes, this is what you're supposed to do translating inputs into outcomes. And I'll skip the experimental design and some of the quotes it felt like all the childhood memories were restored. Some of them talked about why this training program should be one week and so and so. And I'll just we find improvements in both technical and soft skills, which was very encouraging, and we also find evidence of spillover, means these junior female officers at the police station, they were better treated these junior officers were not targeted as a part of the program. So just to kind of a way forward, as I said, the partnership was very important because the state has implemented this training program in their academy, which means every new recruit is going to go through this program, and we just did the first batch in 2024. And the last part which We learned while working on this project in Bihar was it's like a completely overlooked problem. We expect police to do many things, but we barely know what their daily challenges are. Even I was pretty clueless, stress, anxiety, cholesterol, blood pressure, sleep. We all know these things are important because there are papers talking about various aspects and how this has implications. But in this particular case we went ahead and we are asking them to do. More things without knowing what their constraints are, and this is something that me, Girija, Mika, and Sophia and Lilith, we have been talking about and we have collected data from a few places in India and this is a new agenda that we would like to pursue. Well done. All right, Rachel. Um, all right, well, while I wait for the slides, I'll just say, uh, thank you so much to Shani and the other organizers for kind of creating this really interesting cohesive session and indeed whole day. Um, thanks to all of you for, um, for being here. Um, I'm excited to tell you about, um, uh. Several of my projects, uh, like others, I've kind of chosen several, um, uh, several of my projects that fit together to kind of form kind of a cohesive set of, you know, potential policy solutions, uh, that can work together to improve working conditions in, in export manufacturing. And the case study that I'm gonna use is the garment industry in Bangladesh, which means that I do have to start with this extremely sad picture that some of you might remember. Um, this was the Rana Plaza factory. Uh, it collapsed in April 2013. Sometimes people see the picture and say, you know, was there an earthquake? No, no, there wasn't. It just wasn't structurally sound. It was never even supposed to be used for manufacturing, um, and it eventually, um, collapsed, and, um, ultimately over 1000 workers were killed. Which makes it the, uh, you know, the biggest, uh, garment industry disaster in the history of the world and the biggest disaster in any industry in the world since, uh, since 1984. So just, you know, kind of a huge human toll as far as, um, loss of life, um, in surveys we've done afterwards, just a random sample of workers, you know, up to 20% knew a worker that was seriously hurt or killed in Rana Plaza, so just, you know, a huge, uh, a huge shock to the, the industry. And so in light of that there was a lot of discussion after the um you know, after the collapse, are workers even gonna wanna keep working in the industry are suppliers gonna pull out given that uh you know there was such widespread disregard for worker safety that factories were sending workers to work in a building where they should never have even, uh, been working in the first place. But as you see from, um, this graph that didn't happen in the least, um, the red line is, uh, is 2013. When Rana Plaza happened, Bangladesh is the, um, the heavy, uh, black line, and so you see there was no trend break. It just, you know, exports kept, you know, kept growing and growing, and, um, ultimately Bangladesh has, has grown into the, um, the, you know, the second biggest, uh, apparel exporter in the world. China is on a different scale on the left, but if anything it's decreasing its, its exports. So, you know, workers were still, um, going to the factories even in light of this huge tragedy. And that makes sense because you know we also know that the garment industry has had really important um positive impacts on um on on workers and their their families. So in some earlier work I've done with Mushfik Mubarak we looked at the change in girls' um lives as the garment industry, uh, rolled out, um, and so what we. Found is that the garment industry uh increased uh girls' education and we, we did that by comparing, uh, the, you know, enrollment rates of girls in villages proximate to garment factories where girls could live at home and commute to these garment factories compared to other villages that were not proximate to garment factories before versus after a garment factory opened. Uh, and so what you see in these, uh, in these graphs here is that there were particularly large effects on younger girls who weren't eligible yet to work in the factories. There might have been some dropouts among older girls, not enough to have a negative effect. You, uh no age group here do we see a negative impact, but there's, um, you know, a less positive impact among, among older girls, and the effects were substantial. So to take one age here, um, an 8 year old girl was 13% points more likely to be in school after the garment industry, uh, came to her village compared to, um, another girl in a, um, in a non-garment proximate village. And so, you know, kind of because the industry became so important, we do a back of the envelope calculation that showed that, um, you know, it's kind of some of the, um. Presentations this morning pointed out Bangladesh is one of the countries that has had a convergence in girls and boys' education. We find that the garment industry was an important, um, contributor to that convergence, um, causing about 3% points nationwide of the increase in girls' enrollment. Uh, we also similarly found that the garment industry led girls to delay marriage and childbearing, um, so kind of other positive impacts. And then if we fast forward we can also see that it's not just future workers, it's the current workers that have these jobs. The garment sector jobs are providing really important valuable sources of income. So what I'm showing you here is some, um, um, is uh is some ongoing work I have with Laura Boudreau and Waheed Rahman where in the midst of the COVID pandemic in November 2020 we resurveyed a sample of workers who had been um active garment workers in 2017. And so of course some of them were still working, others of them, them weren't and so what I'm showing you here is the earnings of workers who men men versus women who were still in the garment industry when we surveyed them in late 2020 compared to workers who had left the industry before the COVID pandemic, uh, before January 2020, or workers who left after January 2020. Um, so I don't wanna claim that this is a causal impact of the, of the garment industry. Workers might have chosen to leave this industry because they were less attached to the labor force, but we've at least taken off the kind of most obvious kind of selection here that we've only showed, we're only showing you workers who worked after leaving the garment industry. So all these, you know, were employed, um, at some point. And so what you see is the, um, among the women, the blue line is the current garment worker line, same, same for men as well, and so. You see, you know, there's something of a dip among, um, you know, in the kind of the real peak of the COVID pandemic, um, April, uh, April 2020 but the, you know, after a couple of months, the, um, the, the earnings rebound, and they never lost the majority of their earnings. That's in stark contrast to women that were, uh, you know, employed but not in the garment industry who really lost, uh, ultimately a very large share, uh, of their income. Um, and kind of, you know, similarly for these women garment workers' husbands, they, you know, their, their graph looks similar. They also lost a large share of their income, so the garment industry during the COVID pandemic was providing a really important source of, um, of income support to the women working, uh, in the, in the industry. So that brings us to the question. Um, it's obviously a huge tragedy when, um, you know, when kind of a factory collapses and kills many workers. There's, you know, relatively high rates of other, um, you know, injuries and um um illness spread in the factories. Um, I've done some other work on estimating rates of sexual harassment to tag on to vicious. Uh, work as well. So I mean these are challenging places to work, but they bring these important benefits to the women who are working and, uh, you know, the girls whose families invest in human capital for them to get these jobs in the future. So I think this brings up the key policy question can policy make these jobs better so that women can enjoy the, you know, the good parts of these garment jobs without, um, those, you know, hard working conditions and even tragic consequences. So the first thing that I wanna show you is um is a paper by um. From a project that I did with Laurent Bossavi and um Yun Cho, who are both at the bank, and so what we did was we looked at the net effects of all the Rana Plaza responses and those were kind of, you know, a series of responses. We can't unbundle, you know, different kind of things that happened, but we can estimate the net effects of all these responses which were that retailers started pushing toward for better conditions and they were prompted by both, uh, by both kind of, um, high income. Country consumers who protested and said, you know, I don't wanna buy clothes from, um, H&M anymore if you're going to be, um, sourcing from factories where workers are killed. So that was one source of the change. But also, um, workers in Bangladesh themselves protested for, uh, better working conditions and, and higher wages. Those culminated in some high profile but ultimately voluntary, um, initiatives. You might remember their names, the Accord and the Alliance. Where factories could be, um, you know, could choose to be audited, they were, they were voluntary, although the retailers might have pushed them to, to do so and said, you know, I will only buy from you if you sign on to these, uh, these alliances. So, uh, you know, that was an important channel. Even factories that didn't sign might have improved working conditions or wages because the retailers were still pushing them even if they didn't sign or just to compete with these, um, other factories that were signing and where working conditions were improving. So you know, again, the net impact of all of those, we can't disentangle what's a direct channel, what's an indirect, but we try to estimate the net impact of all those channels by comparing workers in the garment industry after Rana Plaza happened in treated districts, and those are districts that export, so we're thinking that these are the ones where the international buyers are pushing for better conditions and comparing. Those workers to um garment sector workers in districts where there aren't export factories is the one control group and then, uh, other manufacturing workers in these um districts where they're export factories that are that are not, um, that are not garment factories so that's, um, that's kind of our plaza, you know, that's our identification strategy to estimate the plausibly causal impacts of the this. Package of um reforms after Rana Plaza and the um the the line of the table in blue gives those effects and so what we see is that wages went up by uh on average 10% after Rana Plaza and so did working conditions. Those are measured in standard deviations and it's a large effect of 0.8% of a standard deviation increase of, um, of working conditions, um. So you know that's quite a striking result um and you know overall compensation went up because both um both wages and non-wage benefits went up, but the other thing that we find is that this didn't come at the expense of total employment which you maybe were already predicting because you know we saw the industry just kept going so that you know some workers needed to sustain that production. So what it looks like happened is that before Rana Plaza employers had some degree of monopsony power, uh, market power over the employees, and so there was scope to raise total compensation if they were, um, adequately motivated to do so. And indeed the retailers pushing for better conditions after Rana Plaza was exactly the motivation they needed, so it was kind of, uh, it did kind of result in a net win for the for the workers. So that was a um kind of that was a story of the retailers kind of pushing for better conditions that improved workers' lives on the ground as I mentioned of course workers were advocating for better conditions so they weren't totally uh uninvolved in the process but it looks like kind of a key channel was the um the the retailers. But what I wanna ask next is the question is there kind of a more bottom up approach that says. If we give workers information, will that empower them to access jobs with better conditions? Um, so in this work with Laura Boudreau and Tyler McCormick, we, we point out the descriptive fact that when we compare internal migrants in Bangladeshi garment factories to local workers who grew, everybody's from Bangladesh, but we're comparing migrants from rural areas to local workers who grew up in these areas. Near the factories, um, when we do that, we find that internal migrants are in factories with worse working conditions, and this might not surprise you because, you know, internal migrants might be disadvantaged in, in many ways, but strikingly they're actually, if anything in factories with higher wages, um, so it's not just an overall disadvantage story, it was, you know, something about the, the getting into factories with worse working conditions. The other key fact is that the migrants move towards better, uh, factories with better conditions as they as they gain experience. So we argue this is consistent with a story in which internal migrants were less informed about the industry as they as they began, uh, you know, you can't know what's a good workplace, uh, you don't know what the factory, if the factory is gonna fall down unfortunately until it does, so they're less informed. Local workers had more word of mouth, um, about where it's a good place to work. Everybody knows what wages are. So the, the factories that were attracting migrants were actually competing on wages. They just, it wasn't, uh, efficient for them to compete on working conditions because workers wouldn't even notice those investments. Um, but as the workers gained experience, they started behaving more like locals. So what the, you know, so this suggests that there's a learning process of migrants, but that there's some welfare gain to be had if you give them the information and help them, uh, you know, help them kind of on this slow learning process. Can, can we speed that along? So this was a descriptive paper that kind of suggests that there's this learning model, um, but so Laura and I, um, decided to test that experimentally in work with um Shaquille Ahmed. So, um, in this RCT one of the treatments is what we call a, uh, report card for garment factories, um, and on the right here I show you an anonymized version, um, and translated. Into English of the report card that that workers got so to make this report card, the first thing we did was we conducted a large scale, uh, geographically representative survey of workers in these neighborhoods because there's no publicly available information, um, thinks about, um, about a representative sample of factories. The kind of factories that you have audit data from aren't representative and we really wanted to make sure we had information about. Uh, the full set of factories, um, so we color coded the, um, uh, the grades that workers, um, that workers got. We masked grades that were below median because we were worried about factories discovering this and getting mad at us and the, and the workers. So, uh, if you're below median, you only see the color code, so at least they don't know exactly the kind of score, uh, that they had even though we told workers that they were in order. Um, so we, um, you know, we kind of, there were about 30 different survey data, uh, questions that went into this report card, and we commissioned again like Nashi in the, the comic book, we commissioned, uh, um, an illustrator to kind of make little pictures to help workers that weren't fully literate to kind of understand what were the things that went into these different, um, into these different grades. Um, so my time is up. So, um, we showed the, um, uh, we showed the, um, the grades for these specific measures, things like not just an overall grade but employment practices, uh, maternity and child care, physical safety and comfort, so that workers that kind of cared specifically about some dimension would be able to check that score as well. Um, there was another treatment arm that, um, gave workers job vacancy information that we collected from HR managers of the factories, and, uh, this is in Bungalow, but you kind of get the, the format of it to see if, um, you know, if you need the, if this is kind of an additional tool that helps workers move towards, uh, factories with better wages or working conditions. Um, so just to sum up, I'd say, you know, how can we think about improving working conditions? There's rules for both kind of a top down approach that in, uh, um, you know, in the, in a supply, a long supply chain and export manufacturing, buyers have an important role, um, but also this kind of bottom up approach, um, and I should mention that, um, that that survey is ongoing. We're actually launching the in line next week, so I don't have the results of that experiment, but, um. Um, I'm excited to analyze and disseminate them and to get that information out, but at least kind of the descriptive paper I mentioned suggests that there's this important role for, uh, for information. Um, and, uh, and, and I'll just conclude with a very brief plug for some of my, um, co-authors and others, um, work that, you know, it's not either or top down or bottom up. There's kind of hybrid approaches where, um, unions or safety committees that the factories form but are kind of staffed with workers can also be really effective at improving working conditions, um, so thank you. Thank you, Rachel. Thanks, a big thanks to all our panelists, stuck on time, on point, right? So now we have 25 minutes for questions and answers. So we're gonna do 3 rounds. Uh, and I would say let's the question short, ask a question, not make a comment, and then, you know, identify if there's a particular, uh, speaker you'd like to reach out to anyone on that side? OK, one. 2 and anyone 3, right? Let's do 3 right now. Hi, good afternoon. My name is Harsh. I till recently had the very fun job of working with the, the World Bank Gender Group on developing the strategy and organizing and analyzing consultations to get content for that. You, Pam, ended your presentation, if I understood correctly, questioning the merit of engaging fathers in care and, uh, risking reducing women's autonomy and, uh, bringing in sticky social norms. Um, two inputs that we heard that might go contrary to that is, one is the risk of backlash, increasing jobs for women, while not involving men. And another input we've gotten is that if we want to absolutely increase wages for women, bring men into those jobs, then wages will go up for everyone. So, if you have any data or reflections on that, I'd love to hear that. Anybody out here? right. Hi, thank you, Caridad. Also a question for Pam. Yeah, it has to do with whether you've looked into the effects of um. Child care preschool separately because it is so different both from the perspective of the child, the family, and the production of quality care, uh, those like the 0 to 2 and the 3 to 5 age groups that, um, I mean at least with the evidence I've looked at the, the. The stories are different, um, you know, it definitely preschool, it's easier to produce at scale. It's more standardized. Kids get benefit from interacting with another, so it's easier to produce better quality in a way and there's more take up by families. So I just sorry, that was my question. Great, and there's one out there, right? So who the question there, um, thank you so much. Uh, my name is Divan Shi, and I'm a public policy student at University of Chicago. My question is for Nishat Ananukriti Booth. Uh, so I was before this, I was working in Haryana and I worked with Mahila Police stations and also like training police force, and one of the biggest problem was the factor of reconciliation that every time there's a crime that's committed against women, the focus is on putting them back into the house, right? Uh, and I think it's also because of information asymmetry that the women don't know that there is enough financial resources available, like there's a self-help group or there's a one stop center that they can go to, which, uh, is my question that I want to ask Anukriti that in your research did you explore using Asha workers or Angan Mari workers to sort of bridge that gap. Thank you. All right, let's turn to the panel. OK, so let me, so thank you for the questions. Um, so to this first point about, um, so I think if I understood the question correctly, you're sort of saying there are some, uh, lessons we've learned from the literature on women's labor force participation and you're thinking about how those would relate to the, uh, experiments engaging fathers within the household and early childhood care. I mean, I think your point is a really interesting one, but I'm not sure I would interpret it the way that that you did. So I think the first point that we worry about backlash, I think it's exactly the sort of unintended consequences that is the thing that we should worry about when we think about engaging fathers in the household. So many of us come from this sort of wealthy country mindset of of household dynamics where fathers are already. Involved and I think it's easy to think about that in terms of net benefits for child development potentially and to miss the sort of unintended consequence of having men enter a female dominated space when in an environment where men have a lot of power relative to women and I also think that we sort of there's this other unintended consequence of fathers who aren't. Paying a lot of attention to their kids to begin with may not be very good at it, and the wrong intervention may in fact be worse than no intervention at all. So I think it's a similar story of unintended consequences and backlash that we are wary of now. I think your point about within the labor force we see, you know, and it's difficult to get causality, but in general male dominated sectors have higher wages. Uh, and get more credit. I mean, I think that's, that is a very interesting phenomenon, but I'm not sure how it translates into the domain of domestic responsibilities within the household and that these are things that are not, there's no market wage for how you do the dishes anyway, and so I'm not sure there's a natural, I wish that there were, uh, but, uh, not that I ever do the dishes, but, um, but I, but I think I'm not sure that there's a parallel with that one, but. I think the first point is, is very well taken, but, but I would interpret it that we should be thinking more about the backlash that's specific to the within the household context. Um, on the second point, uh, uh, about 0 to 2 versus 3 to 5, I mean, you are right, they are quite different. Uh, I'm speaking so in my own systematic review and some of the other systematic reviews that have come out recently, in general, we still see that, uh, while it. Is so access is very different between those two, but I think in terms of interventions being generally not bad for children, that's a regularity we see on most classes of outcomes for young kids and for older kids. And so even though we worry a lot about quality both in daycare and in preschool. And with some caveats about the set of programs that are evaluated may not be representative of the broader market, but in general what we see is that in both of those domains it looks like center-based care is at least not bad and often weekly or. Or strongly good for children and so I'm not sure there's as stark of a discontinuity. I think there's also a uh a difference in terms of how they relate to women's labor force participation because with preschool, if you also have even younger kids, then it has very little impact on women's labor force participation. Shit. Was it for me or both of you, if I can start, uh, so I think I agree what you just said that that is true, that often if there is, say, a dispute within the household or in, you know, issue with domestic violence, uh, even the, the police station or, you know, anyone who's involved try to sort of make sure that the woman basically just goes back to the household, and I think it just reflects the fact that the outside options for women are pretty bad. Right, so, uh, one is if you're not working, if you're not financially independent, then that creates a constraint. Um, the other alternative might be to go back to, let's say, to live with your NATO family or, you know, parents for a little while. And again there is a lot of social stigma in this context, especially in places like Haryana, and that's really something that is frowned upon. And in fact there's a reason why you know your daughter is supposed to just in pretty local societies just be given away, and then, you know, the interaction between NATO families and. Marital families is supposed to be very low, so I think this, even though this is sort of an outcome we don't want, it essentially reflects the social norms that are prevalent and the constraints that women face. So in that sense, you know, if the alternative is just really so bad, then you know then. Even though this may not be the best outcome, you know, everybody's trying to sort of do that, so I think the way we would try to that might become weaker if women are more likely to participate in the economy, work, and have financial independence, and then of course, you know how social norms change over time. Uh, and I think, and I let me add to that, and then the second point, uh, you raised was about ASHA workers. So in that, in the project that I discussed, we did not because we were working with the local family planning clinic and we could distribute the vouchers ourselves. But in ongoing work we have now actually gone back to Jaunpur and we are working with the mothers-in-law and, uh, and the daughters. In law and we're trying to, you know, work with health workers and it's interesting how even though we think that Ahas definitely have a lot of presence, uh, if you ask how many people have actually visited your house to discuss family planning, it's actually not that high, so it's mainly focused on childhood immunization and you know things like that, but hopefully we'll see how that goes. It's a great question, and I don't think I have an answer based on my research, but I'll give you an answer based on my working on this topic for a pretty long time. I think you don't want to think about all the cases in one category, right? So you want to pick up, like, let's say there is a case where there's a very severe beating. And in the last I would say 10 years, the cost of reporting has gone down. So when you report, there is a pretty specific protocol that officers try to follow depending on what their constraints are, and their immediate response in that case typically is like you go and arrest the husband. But there's also Supreme Court guidelines about reconciliation that you don't want to kind of just go and do this because there would be absolutely no reconciliation after that given also from what we know about the family, mother-in-laws, father-in-laws, things like that. So at least in the context of Bihar where I have spent most time, a lot of these officers focus on reconciliation. That is kind of like almost their primary goal, but there has been a pretty steady rise of counseling. So almost every police station is supposed to have a counselor, but that counselor could be a police officer himself. They don't necessarily have an external counselor, but in that case they would bring the husbands and the family and kind of make them go through some counseling that this is not OK. And if you do this next time, I'm going to arrest you and put you in jail. So I think it varies a lot on case by case. So that's all I can say. Right, let's take some more questions. Let's start again from that side. If someone has a question, now in the center, the two out here, let's, let's get the mic here, please at the back. Hey, uh, I'm Isabella Brati. Oops, sorry, uh, I'm from Ernst and Young's Quantitative Economics and Statistics Unit, and I have a question about. Um, so, so we heard that these interventions work. Um, do you know a way how to make these interventions to become a budget line with a number next to them? Do you, is there a dialogue with governments to make them, um. Part of the process and and help them uh develop their agency. Um, in these countries and my other, I'm sorry, I have two questions yet. The second one is a tiny one though, so we are looking at, um, women's, um, standing on the job market and their situation. Do you know of studies that looked at the long term impact of these interventions, for example, um, pension poverty, uh, the, the gap there between, uh, men and women. That that's it thank you and there's another right there. Thank you. I am. That's very loud, uh, Nicole Golden. I'm currently a non-resident senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, among some other consulting hats. Uh, quick question for, is it Anuriti if I pronounce that right? I'm just curious if you looked at, um, any impacts, um, in your study on the women on picking up any educational or income generating activities, um, as a secondary or other impact, um, that you saw. Thanks. Any questions on this side of the room? Uh, 2 of them, OK. Hi, um, thank you for the presentations. Um, I'm Gillam Sarkar and I'm a PhD student at American University. I have a quick question for Professor Prakash. Um, so among your findings there was that police patrols had no impact on overall street harassment. Can you, um, like give us some of your insights that why that may be the case? Thank you. Did you have a question right next to her? All right. Hi, my name is Reva Restak. I'm also a PhD student at AU and I used to be an RA at CGD. Uh, my question is about the garment factory worker scorecards. In light of recent Supreme Court decisions in the US, I'm wondering if there's an equivalent in the US, uh, to find de facto conditions about factory workers here moving forward with the NLRB decision. Thanks. Great. Uh, should we turn back to our panel? Rachel, why don't I start with you? Um, uh, thanks, yeah, so it's a, it's a great question, and I, I confess to not being, um, not being very up on the, on the US context, um. Um, but, but, but I think that the, I mean, I think that we in the US we have some kind of institutions that, that do do kind of provide similar information already, things like Glassdoor, and so, um, and actually this relates to the question about scaling up so that, um, in, you know, when, when we kind of think about how, um, you know, such kind of these information repositories might. Be scaled up. One possibility is that, you know, once they, once we kind of have this information that the garment factories will want to do this themselves because that kind of helps, you know, get workers in factories that are better matches for their specific preferences and so that might be, you know, kind of, um, you know, this might be something that industries would want to do on its own or, you know, kind of a more an NGO or something that. It's like, like Glassdoor that's kind of funded, um, um, you know, kind of funded through some other external source, and so I think those, um, I, I think that, you know, that there we do see evidence of kind of demand for this information that's kind of being provided in the US, but you know, the it's possible that there is a role for the government in light of kind of, you know, specific legal, um, you know, kind of specific legal changes. Sure, so I think one of the question was about, uh, take up, right? Uh you talked about these interventions and take up by I guess the policymakers is that. So, uh, I'll give you like a few, I, I think a lot depends on the timing when you go and talk to them. So suppose you go and talk to them towards the fag end of the, when the government's gonna change, there's absolutely, there's no room for conversation. Uh, so I think the first key is like how do you work together, kind of co-create that policy. I think that plays a very important role in terms of whether it's the person who is in charge or someone comes after that. I think that co-creation has been pretty helpful. I'll give you two examples where in the paper in Hyderabad where we found these results and we said, look, you know, can we push for say surprise component that's uniform policing because this is what the results show. And it was a no starter. Like, no, this is not gonna work well with the government, and I said that's fine if there's no room, but he's like, tell me a bigger lesson or what can we do? And I said, well, the second part of the lab experiment talks about attitudes, so you know, can we think about a training program? And he's like, oh, that's a no brainer, it's very easy to implement. So you kind of like you have to figure out what's the right message you want to talk, and I think the takeup becomes easier. And on the other hand, in Bihar, when we didn't even have results, this is early January when I went with some descriptives to the administrative head of the state, and he looked at these slides and he said, Oh, can we implement this in the academy? And I said, Oh, we don't have any evidence. He's like, no, it doesn't matter, so it looks good. And he immediately made a call to the police academy and he said, Can you implement this curriculum? So I have like two examples. Uh, I have another example from education work where I worked in Zambia and uh. There has been take up in other countries and you have this question about why we don't find and I think it's all about deterrence. So the number of times you make an arrest, I think if that number is not high, it's just not going to be enough and I think that project was a big learning because we had lots of conversation with a very open minded police commissioner, and he said look. Sexual harassment is very important. I care about this. Is this my number one priority? And the answer is no. Number one is like, you know, in Hyderabad, the religious tensions becomes the number one. Like it's there. They have resources, everything, but that's not number one, right? So and I think one has to understand the constraint, but they had a program. It was well monitored, and I think there was a lot of learning, but I think it's a lot about veterans and what's the frequency of these arrests. Thanks Nishid uh Anu. Yeah, so to answer your question, uh, we don't, so our end line was 10 months after, you know, we, the intervention started, and during that time period we don't find any impact on education or employment. So education we were expecting because typically once, you know, uh, women are married, it's, it's they're not going back to the school to such a large extent, uh, for the labor market again it could be that, you know, you need to wait a bit longer because, uh, we do see a decrease in pregnancy, but it's not. It depends on for how long that, you know, the birth spacing goes up, but at at least in our study we don't find anything. Uh, we are now going back, um, to the sample and trying to see whether there are any longer term impacts, for instance, on mental health, you know, because a lot of, we got a lot of questions about, you know, given that you are so socially isolated, it may actually impact women's mental health, and so we are collecting data on that and hopefully we'll be able to say something on that, uh, and to on the question of the impact of interventions. I think at least in my experience I find that researchers are perhaps not really good at working with policymakers or engaging with policymakers and focusing on actually trying to uh you know get the research we do turned into policy, you know, maybe the focus sometimes is more on let's say publications and and the audience can be very different. um I think in my experience what I found is of course there are projects where you're directly working with the policy maker, right? So that's a different opportunity they get to see how you're doing. Research and maybe the observe impact in a much more direct, you know, immediate way and then it's much easier when you're not working with the policymaker. Then you really have to figure out how do I convey the findings that I have for those policymakers. They are probably not going to read the American Economic Review and learn about research. So I think we need to find ways to communicate and disseminate results to a broader audience. So for instance, in the case of India, there is ideas for India. It's a. From where you can publish your research findings for maybe a a policy audience and I do know several uh you know, administrative officers who actually read work and then when I published something they've communicated so I think that's one the other, at least being at the bank we do end up working with, uh, you know, governments and, and that I think either on active projects where it is already being scaled up and then research helps figure out exactly the nuances of that project or how to improve implementation. and that's helpful. And the last thing I would say is I've also found that yes, presenting a research heavy, you know, causally identified study, yes, is useful, but sometimes, you know, a very basic exercise is sometimes even more useful. So I once presented the baseline findings of a very basic survey to a state government in India, and it was really, I find, impactful because. They didn't have much data on on the types of things that we were collecting data on, and I think that itself, you know, helped them be more open to the idea, OK, now we can do research and maybe do an impact evaluation, which they were much more than, you know, receptive to afterwards. Thank you, Anu, and thank you everyone for this really, really great discussion and to the audience for the very useful questions. Thanks everyone and uh. Our next session starts in 15 minutes and uh that's gonna be an economic inclusion of the year. So thanks again.
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ABCDE2024 Day2 Session2
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A video recording of the second session—Day 2—of The Annual Bank Conference on Development Economics 2024 "The Great Incoherence: Growth and Human Development in An Era of Stagnation." This session discusses "Norms and Other Constraints to Women’s Economic Inclusion."

Papers discussed in this session are:

  • Paper 1: Early Childhood Interventions and Women’s Empowerment (Pam Jakiela, Williams College)
  • Paper 2: Women’s Social Networks (S Anukriti, World Bank)
  • Paper 3: Sexual Harassment in Public Space: Evidence and Future Directions (Nishith Prakash, Northeastern University)
  • Paper 4: Policy Solutions to Improve Working Conditions in Export Manufacturing(Rachel Heath, University of Washington)
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