00:10 Hello everyone.
00:11 My name is Dilinika Perris Horsinger,
00:13 and
00:14 today we will be talking about women in the workforce and why it matters to Sri Lanka.
00:20 So joining me in this conversation
00:22 is the World Bank's country director for Maldives,
00:25 Nepal,
00:26 and Sri Lanka,
00:26 Doctor Aida Swarahi Reddihoff,
00:29 and
00:30 director of research at
00:32 IPS Institute of Policy Studies,
00:34 Doctor Nisha Arunathhiakkar.
00:36 We do know that only 1 in 3 women participate in Sri Lanka's workforce.
00:42 We also know that childcare,
00:44 travel to work,
00:45 wage gaps,
00:46 and limited marketable skills are among factors keeping women out of work.
00:51 Yet the benefits of having women in the workplace are vast.
00:55 Estimates show that Sri Lanka could see an overall income gains
01:00 about 16% in 2040
01:03 if gender gaps are closed in 50 years.
01:07 So to mark this year's International Women's Day,
01:10 we decided to talk about how Sri Lanka
01:12 could benefit from more women participating in the workforce
01:16 and what can be done to improve their opportunities
01:19 of getting a job and remaining at work.
01:22 So my first question is to Ada.
01:25 I don't,
01:26 why is this issue an important one for Sri Lanka and how
01:30 would Sri Lanka benefit from having more women in the workforce?
01:33 Dilinika,
01:33 so thank you very much for inviting me to speak to this topic,
01:37 which is,
01:37 uh,
01:38 as anybody knows,
01:39 is a topic that's very close to my heart.
01:41 In fact,
01:42 I will start
01:43 by saying something
01:44 that I say every single time we,
01:46 uh,
01:46 celebrate International Women's Day.
01:48 Is why do we only talk seriously about women
01:52 on this day?
01:53 Why is it
01:54 something we don't talk about
01:56 throughout the year every single day?
01:58 Why do I say this?
02:00 Women make up
02:01 50% of the population all over the world.
02:04 Every one of us can honestly say we value our grandmother,
02:08 we value our mother,
02:09 we value our sisters,
02:11 our nieces,
02:12 whatever relationship it is that you have with a woman that you love in your life.
02:17 So why do we not extend this appreciation
02:20 to the women
02:21 when it comes to the workplace?
02:24 If you think about it,
02:25 in Sri Lanka,
02:26 only 34% of women
02:29 are in the workplace,
02:31 so we can assume
02:32 that there's a 66% of the women
02:35 that are not productively working in the workforce.
02:39 But the irony of it is that when you look at higher education,
02:43 the majority of the students are women.
02:46 So where are our women
02:48 when it comes to work?
02:49 We know that if the women go to work,
02:51 at least 9.2% can be expected to be an increase in the GDP.
02:58 That's not a small number when you think about it.
03:01 Why should women be in the workplace?
03:04 How is Sri Lanka
03:07 expected to benefit if women go back to work?
03:09 Estimations have been done,
03:11 particularly,
03:11 I want to refer to a recent study that was done by the IMF
03:15 which estimated
03:17 that because the women are not in the workplace,
03:19 we are losing 20%
03:22 of our GDP.
03:24 Let me go back again
03:26 to the number that I made earlier.
03:28 Where are the 66% of the women that we need to see in the workplace?
03:33 Even more important is the fact that Sri Lanka,
03:37 if you look at the demographics,
03:39 they're getting old quite quickly,
03:41 which is very unusual for a country,
03:44 in this level of development because you would
03:47 expect that the country is also getting rich
03:49 at the same time
03:50 that it is actually getting old with old age.
03:54 You get
03:55 the following issues that become very complicated for the country.
04:00 You need more people to look after the old people,
04:03 but more importantly,
04:04 it means you have fewer people who are actually in the workplace,
04:08 fewer people who are productive workers
04:11 who you can get taxes from,
04:13 where you can get your pensions to be actually contributed.
04:17 So essentially you end up with a huge mismatch not
04:20 only of the people that are in the workplace,
04:22 but a mismatch in terms of the revenue
04:26 and the expenditure that needs to get done.
04:29 But let me turn to women and the well-being of their own family.
04:33 I think it cannot be disputed by anybody
04:36 that actually every single woman,
04:38 be it their children,
04:39 their parents,
04:40 their grandparents,
04:41 do play a very important role in the well-being of their family.
04:47 When you talk to many of these women beyond the family setting,
04:51 you really understand that they are driven.
04:53 They want their children to do well they want their
04:55 family to do well they want their family to live well
04:59 there's an ambition
05:01 there's an energy,
05:02 there's an innovation that these women have.
05:05 Why is Sri Lanka not able to tap it?
05:08 I think if you can tap this energy
05:10 for sure Sri Lanka can benefit a lot more.
05:13 Beyond the 20% in GDP increase,
05:16 there's also the well-being of their children
05:18 and the well-being of society in general.
05:20 It's worth getting women to work.
05:23 Thank you,
05:23 Aida.
05:23 Thank you for outlining the benefits to Sri Lanka as a country as well as the family.
05:29 My next question is to Nisha.
05:31 So what are the challenges facing Sri Lanka in getting women,
05:34 more women to participate in the labor force?
05:37 That's a good question,
05:39 and there's been a lot of literature on that for Sri Lanka.
05:43 It's very complex,
05:44 a lot of interrelated issues
05:47 going on,
05:47 but I think the problems start in the house.
05:50 As you know,
05:51 everywhere in the world,
05:52 a lot of females are
05:54 the primary caregivers.
05:56 They are the ones who are cooking and cleaning,
05:57 looking after children,
05:59 and a recent ILO survey showed that in Sri Lanka.
06:04 These religious social norms which dictate the gender roles in the household are
06:09 making females spend as much as
06:12 5 hours a day cooking and cleaning and taking care of children.
06:16 That's quite a lot of time.
06:18 And this determines their ability to participate in the marketplace.
06:23 And not only that,
06:24 even if they somehow do manage to get to the marketplace,
06:29 where they work
06:30 and how they work,
06:32 you know,
06:32 because of this higher burden that they
06:35 undertake in terms of taking care of the family.
06:38 They prefer to work closer to home.
06:40 They prefer to work in workplaces which is easier to access,
06:45 and even if they are in the workplace,
06:46 they would want to work part time or
06:49 in more flexible work arrangement.
06:51 And even if you do end up working,
06:54 they don't want to take more responsibilities,
06:56 so they would opt out from getting promoted because that might mean
07:01 more responsibility and.
07:03 Longer at work,
07:04 so all of these issues
07:06 keep them away from the marketplace
07:09 and also keep them away from good jobs with good career prospects.
07:14 So this is one main problem,
07:16 but I think education is kind of a way out of that
07:20 because what you find is in more
07:22 educated households these gender roles are less pronounced
07:27 and also.
07:27 They are able to
07:29 get help from outside
07:31 to take care of some of these activities so
07:34 women have more time to participate in the marketplace
07:38 and they can also get better wages
07:41 so they can afford childcare or some help to help with the household activities.
07:49 So education has proven to be a way out of that.
07:53 One thing I must also mention is the labor legislation in Sri Lanka.
07:58 Now the legislation,
07:59 if you look at
08:01 the legislation that governs how
08:03 females participate in the workforce,
08:06 most of that legislation was written
08:09 in the middle of last century,
08:11 and
08:12 I'm sure it was written by males.
08:15 They probably don't see.
08:17 The way a woman might see
08:19 the world,
08:20 so it's very protectionist,
08:22 and they always give special treatment to females,
08:27 which is not bad,
08:28 but what it has done is it has made hiring females costlier
08:34 for the employer.
08:35 And one other factor I want to mention
08:38 is
08:39 the transport and the security and safety of transport.
08:43 And I have heard some statistics which are quite alarming
08:48 that a lot of harassment is taking place in
08:52 the transport sector and females it's not safe,
08:56 especially in rural areas
08:58 and in the night for females to go back home after working.
09:02 There are issues,
09:03 so
09:03 all of these things it's very interrelated,
09:07 and
09:08 the government policies have looked at one aspect of it,
09:11 and that's probably why we haven't seen.
09:13 The female labor force participation increasing,
09:15 I think you need to look at it holistically if you want.
09:19 Thank you so much,
09:20 Nisha,
09:20 for outlining what is interrelated and yet complex as well
09:24 and what can be done
09:26 to make these systematic changes.
09:27 So coming back to Aida,
09:29 what are some of the things that Sri
09:31 Lanka should consider doing to encourage more young girls
09:34 and women to join the workforce?
09:36 And
09:37 what are we seeing from other countries and what are we learning?
09:41 Um,
09:41 thank you,
09:41 and I think,
09:42 uh,
09:42 Nisha puts some really important things on the table in terms of,
09:46 uh,
09:47 what women need to consider or you know,
09:49 how
09:50 women are seen when it comes to the workplace.
09:53 So I,
09:54 I do agree that it is a two part system,
09:56 right?
09:56 It's how people view.
09:57 Women
09:58 and what also women view when they make decisions so let me talk a little bit about
10:03 some of the things that women themselves,
10:05 at least what we are observing,
10:07 there are so many more women in secondary school
10:10 and in higher education in the universities,
10:14 but when you look at what they are learning
10:17 and if you think about what the market is demanding today and where
10:21 the economy is going,
10:23 it's very clear there's a mismatch in terms of the subjects that they are taking.
10:28 If you go a little bit earlier into middle school or even into lower school,
10:32 you find a real stark difference.
10:34 For example,
10:35 you know,
10:35 when my kids were going to school and
10:37 they went for the majority of their school in the US,
10:41 from a very early stage,
10:43 the children have counselors at school.
10:45 Asking them
10:47 what do you want to become
10:48 and then counseling them in terms of the type of subjects that are
10:52 required for the top 5 jobs that they want to be in.
10:55 So I think what we are seeing is you have to catch the children early.
10:59 You have to give them
11:00 the sense that they can achieve whatever they can put their mind to,
11:05 but then you have to give them the support system.
11:08 The support system must also be extended to the teachers because
11:12 teachers also in in a way
11:14 are struggling with the very fast moving market with the fast moving
11:19 industry and the skills that are required
11:22 and as um Delin and I often say.
11:25 A lot of the jobs that are going to be done in the next 10 to 15 years,
11:28 nobody knows what they are today.
11:30 So how well equipped are our kids to take on these jobs
11:34 and even more so
11:35 for the young girls to take on these jobs,
11:38 right?
11:38 The other thing I think that's important is
11:40 women make a consideration,
11:42 as you were saying a little bit earlier,
11:44 Nisha,
11:44 on
11:45 who is going to be
11:46 doing the childcare.
11:47 As a mother myself,
11:48 the most important thing for me was,
11:51 is my child safe with who I leave them with.
11:54 Are they stimulated?
11:56 Are they actually growing and are they learning?
11:59 So when we are doing the childcare,
12:01 do we actually have enough information
12:04 to put all of these things together?
12:06 And imagine if they had the safe transportation you're talking about.
12:10 And it's not just a question of the safe transportation as a mother,
12:12 you want to be close enough to the child.
12:15 If a child is sick,
12:16 you don't want it to take you 3 hours to get to the child,
12:19 right?
12:19 You want to be able to go,
12:20 pick up the child,
12:22 take the child home.
12:23 I'm a real advocate for flexible work hours and I think even in our office,
12:28 one of the things we try to do is if you need to work at home that day because
12:32 your grandmother is sick or your mother is not feeling well,
12:35 go
12:36 work from home.
12:37 Just deliver what you need to do in the time that you work out around yourself.
12:42 I think there's a huge myth around flexible work hours,
12:46 which is when you don't see somebody they're not delivering anything.
12:49 But if you think about the burden of a young mother,
12:52 why is it that we are losing a lot of our young girls when they start work?
12:56 They get married,
12:57 they go to work.
12:59 The moment they have a child,
13:00 they leave
13:01 because the system
13:02 is not adequate enough to look after them as a young mother in the workplace,
13:07 but to look after their child when the child is not with them.
13:10 So there's a lot to be done around these areas.
13:13 Another thing that I like to also advocate for because I think it is important is that
13:18 there's also this growing myth that the only way you can be considered educated
13:23 and adequate to do a job is if you go to university.
13:27 There's a lot of
13:29 things that you can do today using vocational training.
13:32 And catching people
13:34 with things that they like to do
13:36 but also have a passion for it means you create the entrepreneurs,
13:40 the private sector,
13:41 the people who create
13:42 the jobs for tomorrow.
13:44 Today's aspiration for most women is a government
13:47 job precisely for the reasons you gave.
13:49 They get maternity leave.
13:51 They can go and look after their child.
13:53 You can't drive an economy
13:55 just based on jobs in the government sector.
13:58 We have to get our girls to be more creative,
14:00 innovative,
14:01 and then support them.
14:03 And one of the things that I think needs to actually happen
14:06 is to overcome the barriers when it comes to land ownership and asset ownership.
14:11 Women should be able to go and borrow just like any other person
14:15 and be able to to put forward something
14:18 that actually allows them to create jobs.
14:20 I've met.
14:21 Many women in Sri Lanka
14:23 who have thriving businesses
14:25 and they're actually hiring a lot of people they have created a whole industry
14:29 that has created jobs so we know it's possible
14:32 we just need to find a way to continue promoting this
14:36 so that it actually becomes tomorrow's way of doing business.
14:39 When it comes to international experience,
14:42 I'm just gonna talk about two countries that I particularly admire,
14:45 um,
14:46 Japan,
14:46 if you think about them,
14:48 they also have a very serious issue of aging.
14:51 And they have also been struggling a lot when it comes
14:53 to keeping women in the workforce because it's very expensive in Japan
14:58 to do much of the work
14:59 and what they did was they realized that when you actually supported women,
15:03 10% more women actually stayed in the market
15:07 than was happening when you just allowed the system
15:10 to work on its own.
15:12 And you can imagine
15:13 if we were able to get 10% more women in Sri Lanka we would move from 34%
15:19 to 44%
15:20 and
15:21 that loss in GDP would move down from 20% to something much less so the
15:26 benefits are very real and I think this is something that we need to really capture
15:31 the imagination of the policy makers
15:33 but also the imagination of um of the young women.
15:37 The second country is Sweden and I think most people
15:40 are very aware of the way Sweden has actually made it
15:44 and
15:44 you know
15:44 a very not only an acceptable thing
15:48 for women to have children,
15:49 stay in the workplace,
15:51 take time off.
15:53 They have also managed to entice the men
15:56 to be able to stay home and be fathers
15:59 and not penalize their careers either.
16:02 And what they are finding is that actually it makes for a much stronger society
16:06 and makes for a much stronger way of doing business and I will say that in the bank
16:11 we do now actually have a very generous uh paternal
16:15 maternity leave as well
16:16 which I personally am very supportive of because I do believe
16:20 that children do require both parents and when both parents are involved,
16:24 the children do much better.
16:26 So I'll just mention three things in Sri Lanka.
16:29 Um,
16:29 we are supporting um the training of young women,
16:33 um,
16:33 through this uh early childhood education project,
16:36 which is really
16:37 to bring the standards up of the daycare.
16:39 Um,
16:40 as we spoke a little bit earlier,
16:42 the standards of the daycare do matter for,
16:44 for,
16:44 for mothers.
16:45 When they feel that the system is comfortable,
16:47 they are likely to leave their children.
16:49 If they leave their children,
16:51 they go to work and they can stay in the workplace.
16:53 We're also in the process of working on a pilot with the CMC
16:58 where we can actually pilot a daycare center and an after-school center
17:02 in the CMC when they provide space,
17:04 creating a space where
17:06 CMC workers and others can actually come and leave their children.
17:10 Um,
17:11 demonstrate what a good quality level is
17:14 and how you can maybe even partner with the
17:16 private sector to actually run the daycare center.
17:19 So
17:20 we're hoping that this is something that will become um
17:23 very successful.
17:24 I will also mention what our.
17:25 Our partner uh agency the IFC is also doing
17:29 they have a very big program here they're running on women in work
17:32 uh which they're running particularly with the private sector to create more jobs
17:36 and my understanding is this is taking off uh and it's very strong and.
17:41 Uh,
17:41 recognizes a lot of the entrepreneurs and those who are innovating
17:45 and creating jobs but also creating
17:48 space for women to be leaders,
17:50 uh,
17:50 and the next leaders for
17:52 for tomorrow.
17:53 They're also very much,
17:54 uh,
17:54 working on
17:55 increasing access of,
17:57 uh,
17:57 financing for women
17:59 and as we said earlier,
18:00 when women have access to financing
18:03 they can actually do much better.
18:05 Um,
18:05 the one thing I would like to end with on this is
18:08 the work we've been doing for a while now which is on
18:12 promoting STEM subjects and as I said earlier on,
18:15 there's a tendency for a lot of girls to be in higher school,
18:19 to be in,
18:20 um,
18:21 in university,
18:22 but many of them are taking social sciences now.
18:25 Don't get me wrong,
18:25 there's nothing wrong with the social sciences,
18:28 but if everybody takes the same subjects for exactly the same sector.
18:32 Obviously you can imagine you're going to have a glut and
18:35 it's just not going to be the most productive way to go
18:38 so we need to catch children very early in the system
18:41 to be able to encourage them.
18:43 They can do sciences.
18:44 They can do math
18:46 and I'm always very saddened when I hear girls say
18:48 or my teacher.
18:49 I'm not really good enough in math and you know
18:52 that is something that lasts on them
18:54 and they carry it for a very long time in the
18:56 system believing they're not good enough rather than actually being encouraged
19:01 to understand
19:02 that they can do
19:03 so
19:03 these are some of the things that can be done I think there's a lot more.
19:07 Is the bank
19:08 has,
19:08 have we done enough?
19:09 Is that all?
19:10 No,
19:10 by no means.
19:11 I think even for us we still need to do a lot more.
19:14 There's enough to do on advocacy,
19:17 but there's also enough for us to be able to do to demonstrate that
19:21 we can keep women in the workplace.
19:23 So
19:23 I will continue pushing on my side,
19:25 and I also welcome,
19:27 um,
19:27 others and particularly yourself,
19:29 Nisha to keep pushing us
19:30 to do more in the future.
19:32 Yeah,
19:33 thank you Ada.
19:33 So coming back to Nisha.
19:35 An academic and a researcher in this area,
19:37 do you see any opportunities or some examples from Sri Lanka which could be scaled up
19:43 or
19:44 in your
19:45 research findings some examples that we could highlight?
19:48 Yes,
19:48 for sure.
19:49 Aida gave a statistic at the beginning of this talk
19:52 that 34% of females are in the workforce.
19:56 If you look at it more closely,
19:59 actually of the degree holding population.
20:03 90% of the females are in the workforce.
20:07 They are
20:07 on par with males,
20:09 and of those with A levels,
20:11 50% are in the labor force.
20:14 So actually one thing that could help to
20:16 get females into the workforce is education.
20:20 But
20:21 the problem is in Sri Lanka
20:23 very few females are
20:26 educated to that level.
20:28 Only less than 20% of females have A levels
20:32 or a higher level of education,
20:34 and recently IPS did a study.
20:37 And because we don't have actually the labor force survey
20:39 in Sri Lanka doesn't collect good information on vocational training,
20:43 but the census did in 2012,
20:46 and what we looked at was
20:49 we looked at the influence of vocational training on labor force participation.
20:54 And what we saw is
20:56 girls who had um
20:58 O levels and vocational
21:00 training,
21:01 their
21:02 labor force participation grades were actually a little
21:06 better than those with just A levels,
21:09 so the vocational training can play a big role.
21:12 And interestingly,
21:14 this was not only in Colombo and Western Province,
21:17 it's in all the districts,
21:19 all the districts in Sri Lanka,
21:21 you could clearly see
21:23 that vocational training
21:25 improved labor force participation.
21:27 So
21:27 that's one thing probably the World Bank can do.
21:30 Education does help.
21:33 It gets people,
21:34 females into the workforce.
21:36 Other thing that has worked in Sri Lanka,
21:39 I'm not
21:39 advocating it because I don't think it's very sustainable,
21:43 and as I said,
21:44 this practice of successive governments in recruiting.
21:50 Those with degrees into
21:53 the public service,
21:54 but we can learn from that experience.
21:56 Why do these females want to work
21:58 in the public sector and not anywhere else?
22:01 It's actually the benefits.
22:04 The working conditions are better in the public sector.
22:07 It's shorter working hours.
22:09 The benefits,
22:10 the maternity leave.
22:11 For one year
22:12 and they get more holidays.
22:14 So these are the things that attract them to the public sector.
22:17 It's easier for them to balance their household activities
22:21 with their work activities
22:23 when they are in the public sector.
22:24 But we can learn from that.
22:26 And if the government can facilitate
22:29 this kind of work opportunities in the private sector,
22:33 that could work as well.
22:35 There could be policies that could help the private sector.
22:39 To provide this kind of flexible work and
22:42 better pay so that you know that would be attractive for females to participate
22:47 in the private sector.
22:49 In saying that,
22:50 you know,
22:50 there are some success stories in the private sector,
22:54 you know,
22:54 these
22:56 supermarkets that have come up,
22:57 the girls who work in those supermarkets.
23:00 So some private sector companies have successfully
23:05 provided them with.
23:06 Transport facilities and accommodation facilities
23:09 and actually a lot of them are internal migrants
23:12 brought them from outside
23:14 to work in the supermarkets,
23:16 so there are certain success stories like that as well
23:20 that could help to bring females into the.
23:24 So thank you,
23:25 thank you so much to both of you.
23:26 So there is a message to all of us whether we are a policymaker
23:30 working in the private sector,
23:32 a parent,
23:33 a professional,
23:33 a teacher,
23:35 or even a girl or boy or regardless of our gender
23:37 on what we can do to improve the space to get
23:41 more women into work and for women to remain at work.
23:44 So,
23:45 um,
23:45 my final.
23:47 To both Aida and Nisha is a little bit a personal one.
23:51 Both of you are prominent personalities,
23:54 professionals,
23:55 and also in the public space.
23:57 You have been advocating
23:59 for gender equality.
24:01 So I just want to understand what motivates you to do this.
24:05 What would be your last words on the subject?
24:08 I think you know I've been asked this question many times and.
24:13 For me,
24:14 I think the biggest motivator I had in my life was my father,
24:18 and that's why I really do believe in catch them early,
24:21 you know.
24:22 He allowed me to dream,
24:24 to think about the things I could be,
24:26 and then
24:27 he was really my staunchest supporter.
24:29 So I do believe.
24:30 That
24:31 the issue of women's equality is not just about women
24:36 to women.
24:37 It's about
24:38 the men in our lives.
24:39 It's about the families.
24:41 It's about the support we can get from everyone.
24:44 So
24:45 the last word I would have
24:47 catch them early.
24:48 And it really is a family agenda as far as I'm concerned.
24:52 It's what the family supports you in the very early stage,
24:56 which is what pretty much determines
24:58 what you're going to be.
25:00 Your teachers will enhance it,
25:01 but if you don't have that basic support in the family and at home,
25:06 I think it makes the journey
25:07 very difficult,
25:08 maybe not impossible,
25:10 but very difficult.
25:11 Thank you,
25:12 Aida
25:12 and Nisha.
25:14 I would like to take a different perspective.
25:16 I think it's important
25:18 for a country now we are looking at elections,
25:21 and I would like to see more females in parliament.
25:24 It's actually preparing these females so they're ready for parliament,
25:28 and the first step towards doing that
25:30 is getting them into the workplace
25:32 because I think when you work
25:35 you gain skills
25:36 and you become leaders and you can shape policies,
25:40 uh,
25:40 better policies for the whole country.
25:44 Thank you so much.
25:46 Thank you to both of you for taking the time off your busy schedules,
25:50 and
25:50 main takeaways for me is yes,
25:52 catch them young
25:54 and also for Sri Lanka to grow rich
25:56 before it grows old.
25:58 We really need to create the space
26:00 for more women to participate in the labor force.
26:03 Thank you.
26:04 And I would also would like you to leave a comment.
26:07 We want to hear from you as well
26:09 what you think and mainly focusing on solutions.
26:12 Maybe you as an individual or a group
26:15 or an organization may be making a difference out there.
26:19 We like to hear from you
26:21 and please we encourage you to leave a comment and engage with us.
26:25 Thank you.
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