00:09 Um,
00:10 to everyone who's joining us for this extremely exciting conversation,
00:14 uh,
00:14 the India office of the World Bank is partnering with the
00:18 World Bank South Asia regions Women in the Workforce Week.
00:23 Uh,
00:23 we've been having a series of exciting in the spotlight conversations with
00:27 South Asia region country.
00:29 Directors and prominent experts on
00:31 women's economic empowerment
00:33 and today,
00:34 uh,
00:34 it's my privilege to be in conversation with,
00:37 uh,
00:37 Doctor Janet Emad,
00:38 the Indian country director for the World Bank,
00:41 and Doctor Deepa Narayan,
00:42 acclaimed
00:43 author,
00:43 thinker,
00:44 and activist.
00:45 Um,
00:45 let me actually start before we,
00:47 you,
00:47 you know,
00:47 initiate the conversation with just a short round of introductions for both.
00:51 Uh,
00:51 Doctor Narayan is trained in anthropology and psychology.
00:56 Uh,
00:57 she's worked over the past 25 years in the field of development with various NGOs and
01:02 the World Bank as well.
01:03 I believe,
01:04 uh,
01:04 you were also the senior adviser
01:06 in the poverty group while you were in the World Bank.
01:09 Um,
01:10 she,
01:10 I think if one were to characterize a lot of Deepa's work,
01:13 it's to try and illuminate
01:15 the data with people's voices,
01:17 and you see this in works such as Voices of the Poor,
01:19 a seminal book on poverty,
01:21 um,
01:21 her recent book,
01:22 which has really helped frame the conversation on gender in India,
01:25 which is Chk
01:26 Breaking the silence about India's women.
01:29 Um,
01:29 and she's also of course named by Foreign Policy magazine as one of,
01:33 uh,
01:33 the world's 100 most influential thinkers
01:36 and India Today magazine as
01:38 one of India's 35 greatest thinkers.
01:40 So thank you so much,
01:41 Doctor Narayan Deepa,
01:42 for joining us.
01:43 We have,
01:44 uh,
01:44 Doctor Junaid Ahmad,
01:45 who of course has had a long and storied career in development practice
01:50 as well.
01:50 As thought leadership,
01:51 uh,
01:52 before being the India country director,
01:53 he was the senior director for the global water practice,
01:57 also the resident representative,
01:58 uh,
01:58 of the World Bank in Johannesburg.
02:00 Um,
02:01 Janaev is no stranger to issues around social inclusion,
02:05 uh,
02:06 having been sector manager for the social development group,
02:09 uh,
02:09 very much based,
02:10 uh,
02:10 for South Asia.
02:11 So with that short introduction and thanking both of
02:14 you for being part of this conversation with us,
02:16 let me start
02:18 with you,
02:18 Junaid
02:19 to maybe perhaps make my life a bit easier
02:21 and and set the context for this conversation.
02:24 Why are we here today having this conversation with the both of you
02:28 on gender equality?
02:30 Uh,
02:30 Shana,
02:31 before I,
02:32 before I,
02:32 uh,
02:32 try and answer your question,
02:34 I think I have to remind all of you who are listening today that,
02:38 uh,
02:39 Please don't take the coronavirus issue lightly.
02:42 uh I think the world has
02:44 not been hit with this kind of a shock uh
02:47 uh in terms of health in a long time
02:49 and we don't quite know how this will evolve over time.
02:53 Uh,
02:53 I think the message is very clear and I think the prime minister said it very well.
02:57 This is not about panicking,
02:59 it's about taking action and taking responsibility
03:02 which begins at our individual level
03:04 with simple.
03:06 Good hygiene of washing your hands,
03:08 being careful if you're not feeling well,
03:11 of not going into public,
03:13 avoiding public events that uh
03:15 you don't really need to be part of,
03:17 uh,
03:17 and I think that uh government is also
03:20 beginning to take actions around the world
03:22 you're seeing governments,
03:23 uh,
03:24 really focusing on social distancing
03:26 uh and and addressing some of the uh
03:29 uh some of the public events so uh
03:31 I wanna begin today.
03:33 Just uh by reminding uh everyone
03:36 that life goes on,
03:37 yes,
03:38 but life must adjust to the fact that we are facing a health crisis,
03:42 uh,
03:42 and it's a crisis where each one of us has a has a role to play
03:46 um,
03:47 Shana,
03:47 you ask a very important question usually.
03:50 I like to uh answer
03:53 questions based on good economics,
03:55 right?
03:55 uh access to finance,
03:57 access to
03:58 land,
03:58 uh,
03:59 jobs,
03:59 and,
03:59 and we'll get to that
04:01 but I think uh
04:03 when it comes to the issue of gender,
04:05 if we don't recognize
04:07 that
04:08 our culture,
04:10 our upbringing,
04:11 what happens inside our households,
04:14 uh,
04:15 how we interact in our families,
04:17 in our communities.
04:18 And the norms
04:20 that all of these interactions creates
04:23 ultimately drives
04:24 the conscious or the unconscious bias we have
04:28 when we deal
04:29 with the with the issue of gender equality,
04:32 uh,
04:32 and I think that,
04:33 uh,
04:33 you know,
04:34 I was reading,
04:34 uh,
04:35 uh,
04:36 uh,
04:36 the other day,
04:37 uh,
04:38 a book,
04:38 uh,
04:39 uh,
04:39 of poems by Casinos rule,
04:42 and I came back to the poem,
04:44 uh,
04:44 on,
04:45 uh,
04:45 women.
04:46 And it's a beautiful poem.
04:47 It says Jagunarijago bonnishika,
04:50 and it's saying,
04:51 Awake,
04:51 women folk,
04:52 awake,
04:53 for you are the flicker,
04:54 the fire,
04:55 uh,
04:56 and I don't think he was actually talking about
04:58 job search and labor force participation.
05:01 He was making an appeal to society,
05:04 uh,
05:05 that if you do not understand the role
05:07 of
05:08 women and girls in society,
05:11 you're not gonna be able to change society.
05:13 And I think the language that we have to enter
05:16 into this is a language of understanding our own biases,
05:19 and I think that's why,
05:21 at least that that's why I hope,
05:23 uh,
05:23 that,
05:23 uh,
05:24 uh,
05:24 uh,
05:24 that
05:25 we're here together instead of just
05:27 simply voicing an economics perspective.
05:30 Thanks Jenny.
05:31 Deepa Juni talks about
05:33 the importance of language when we start to think about these issues.
05:38 I mean,
05:38 your book,
05:38 which has been seminal,
05:39 CHP,
05:40 um,
05:41 in just documenting the lives and perspectives of women,
05:45 I mean 8000,
05:46 I believe,
05:46 pages of research notes,
05:48 uh,
05:48 following several women over 20 cities.
05:51 I wanted to ask you why were you compelled to actually pursue these stories
05:56 and provide language and,
05:58 and shape to some of what women's experiences are.
06:01 I was,
06:02 uh,
06:02 I hadn't intended to do this book,
06:04 so it was totally accidental.
06:06 I hadn't intended to do more research.
06:08 It was really a curiosity and wanting to make
06:11 a difference after the after the Nimbhaya rape.
06:15 And I think we don't understand what the cultural roots of violence.
06:20 Clearly just economics,
06:23 education,
06:24 uh,
06:24 income is not enough,
06:25 otherwise
06:26 there would be a huge difference between violence rates in the West and in India.
06:32 The point is that 1 in 3 women around the world
06:36 is sexually and physically abused
06:40 and mostly by.
06:41 Intimate partners,
06:43 so that was the question
06:44 that I wanted to understand
06:46 and it took me very far away from the violence
06:50 and I think one of the most important lessons for me personally is
06:54 that the value of putting your assumptions aside
06:58 and going on an exploratory journey to find out what's happening
07:02 is that you come out in unexpected places.
07:05 So
07:06 I in the book I actually focus on the middle class,
07:09 the educated middle class,
07:10 although I talked about 2000 rural women in poverty
07:15 because it's the middle class,
07:16 it's people like us who are the most in denial
07:19 when we talk about gender equality,
07:21 when we talk about women's empowerment,
07:23 it's always out there with poor people.
07:25 But in our own families,
07:27 in our own homes,
07:28 in our own institutions,
07:30 there's huge
07:32 and deep cultural conditioning,
07:34 which is what you spoke about,
07:35 which makes all of us bias.
07:37 And since we are
07:39 human beings,
07:40 we take our cultural biases into our institutions,
07:44 so every institution is also biased from the bottom to the top,
07:48 and that's what
07:49 was striking
07:50 to me
07:51 was that both women and men are extremely prejudiced against women.
07:58 I think the second thing that was striking is that
08:01 since I got away from shoulds,
08:04 the everyday behavioral patterns
08:06 which discount women,
08:08 which again go into why women behave this way,
08:11 is because the foundation of society is
08:14 what it means to be a good woman or a good man.
08:17 And so then I organized the findings into
08:19 7 behavioral patterns including asking girls to shut up
08:23 and then expecting women
08:25 as soon as you reach adulthood or you enter the workforce
08:28 suddenly you're supposed to be speaking up without
08:31 without any fear
08:33 and what's interesting is that the more educated you are,
08:36 the more you feel compelled to hide the fear
08:39 because you shouldn't be fearful,
08:41 right?
08:41 So then it gets very convoluted.
08:43 I think basically what my study's done
08:46 is pulled out these behavioral patterns
08:48 and because I didn't presume to know the answers
08:51 it resonates with women as well as with men,
08:55 not just in India and this is important but across the world.
08:58 Janine,
08:59 if I could bring you in,
09:00 you know,
09:00 Deepa highlights the fact that
09:02 this the problem of gender equality,
09:04 and I think you started with this as well is about
09:06 the really tough question of norms of behavioral patterns.
09:10 And then there are large institutions,
09:12 be it state civil society that are trying to address this problem.
09:16 Could you reflect on some innovative approaches
09:19 that the World Bank has been supporting,
09:21 say,
09:21 Indian government or state governments with
09:23 to try and
09:24 tackle some of these really difficult problems of norms and
09:28 how do you equalize behavioral patterns at home?
09:31 Sure,
09:31 you know,
09:32 I think
09:33 first,
09:33 uh,
09:34 we have to be honest and say that we,
09:37 the World Bank as an institution,
09:39 took a long time.
09:41 To realize that within our own system
09:43 we have biases,
09:44 you know,
09:45 the bank,
09:46 uh,
09:46 has gone through
09:48 significant cultural shifts over the last several decades.
09:52 uh,
09:52 we started off
09:53 basically
09:55 as a
09:56 male dominated and I would say white male dominated,
10:00 uh,
10:00 society,
10:01 uh,
10:02 coming out of colonial,
10:03 uh,
10:03 uh,
10:04 colonialism.
10:05 Uh,
10:05 the end of colonialism,
10:06 the rise of,
10:07 uh,
10:08 the independent third world,
10:10 and the World Bank to help the Third world
10:12 was mostly staff from the previous colonial administration,
10:16 so they were the white men that dominated.
10:19 Our society and the view was a very technical one.
10:21 The development was about
10:23 technical issues.
10:24 There was no sense of institutions,
10:26 no sense of markets,
10:27 no sense of behaviors,
10:28 uh,
10:29 in society,
10:30 so we had to go through our own
10:32 change
10:33 and that was not easy.
10:34 There was
10:34 intervention
10:36 by leadership to say.
10:37 That we will make a difference in terms of how many women
10:41 uh are in leadership position
10:43 where they come from
10:45 because it couldn't just be
10:46 those educated in the West in the
10:49 Ivy League schools that we actually needed to reach out
10:52 into the universities around the world and so
10:54 we had to go through our own transformation
10:57 and it wasn't easy and it's still ongoing but we're very proud
11:00 that at the top leadership
11:02 50% of our leadership are women.
11:05 Uh,
11:05 and that makes a,
11:06 makes a big difference.
11:07 Uh,
11:08 could I say comfortably that gender,
11:10 uh,
11:11 equality in pay
11:12 has been achieved at the bank?
11:14 No,
11:15 but I know,
11:16 and as a manager in the bank that each year when we go through our,
11:19 uh,
11:20 our own reviews,
11:21 uh,
11:22 I am asked by the institution to look at the staff profile,
11:26 to look at
11:27 the salary base of women,
11:29 and see
11:29 are they different
11:31 and why are they different?
11:32 So I wanted to start off by saying that that that's extremely important
11:35 uh for for us and we went through our own uh own discovery
11:40 I think in the way we work
11:42 we're we've gone through the similar similar shifts
11:45 uh I think for example
11:47 Deepa's work on voices of the poor
11:50 right
11:50 uh
11:51 that would have never
11:53 uh.
11:53 If you will surfaced a couple of decades ago
11:57 and by bringing voices of the poor
11:59 we actually learned
12:00 how the poor are facing day to day life
12:03 and where markets and institutions and governments
12:06 uh are either a part of the solution or not
12:09 so
12:10 being participatory engaging with communities was a big shift in the way we we work
12:16 um
12:16 in engaging with communities.
12:19 The role of women became extremely,
12:21 extremely important,
12:22 very visible,
12:23 uh,
12:24 and the very different ways,
12:25 uh,
12:25 that I think we're,
12:26 we're beginning to make a difference.
12:28 First,
12:29 uh,
12:30 I'll take you to a project that we're doing,
12:32 uh,
12:33 the Tejewai,
12:34 which is
12:35 about,
12:36 uh,
12:36 uh,
12:37 getting
12:38 adolescent girls networks formed.
12:41 Now you can say why just form network
12:43 it's what Deepa refers to in her work
12:46 if you don't give agency and voice
12:49 right,
12:49 how are you going to get them to speak of their challenges?
12:52 so
12:53 a World Bank program
12:54 which is about creating networks of women and girls,
12:58 uh,
12:59 is,
12:59 is,
12:59 is quite innovative and and very different and we bring to it
13:03 not just simply economists.
13:05 But the anthropologist,
13:06 the sociologist,
13:07 the behavior
13:08 side,
13:09 that's,
13:09 that's one example,
13:11 uh,
13:11 another,
13:12 uh,
13:12 uh,
13:12 uh important example for us
13:15 is
13:16 understanding
13:18 how.
13:19 Intra household within the household
13:22 uh
13:22 power lies
13:24 so for example
13:25 you can uh uh
13:27 support a family in terms of nutrition programs
13:30 but if you don't understand who's making decisions inside the household
13:35 your.
13:35 Pact is gonna be very limited so a lot of our programs reach out to
13:40 girls
13:41 and women inside the household
13:43 direct cash transfers to women because
13:46 money in the hands of uh of women,
13:48 the expenditure pattern is extremely,
13:51 extremely different.
13:52 Another area which is uh which is important for us is
13:56 how do you support
13:57 women in political leadership.
13:59 Uh,
14:00 and our work with panchayats and panchayat leaders
14:03 and in fact supporting networks of women
14:06 panchayat leaders has been extremely important and we've documented
14:11 that wherever women are in leadership in panchayats,
14:14 the nature of expenditure
14:16 of the budgets are very different.
14:18 Suddenly
14:19 money towards water
14:21 becomes very important because who bears the burden
14:24 of lack of water in the household?
14:26 It's the women and girls who,
14:27 who bear the bear the burden.
14:29 Uh,
14:30 another area that I think,
14:31 uh,
14:31 has been very important for us is intervening
14:35 early on.
14:36 We recognize
14:37 that
14:38 if you don't intervene
14:40 at the early childhood,
14:42 uh,
14:42 in terms of nutrition
14:44 and linking
14:45 mothers and child,
14:47 you
14:48 in fact in the 1st 5 years
14:50 are already losing.
14:52 Your future generation in terms of their ability to grow the human human capital
14:57 so
14:58 engaging programs that go directly
15:00 uh
15:01 towards uh uh women
15:03 mothers and child has been another set of uh innovations now
15:08 today they're almost like normal projects
15:10 right?
15:11 but the path.
15:12 To which which the path which led to these
15:15 were quite revolutionary
15:16 and continue uh uh continue to be uh uh revolutionary
15:20 I think the the last example,
15:22 uh,
15:23 I would take which has been extraordinary is
15:25 the whole approach of supporting self-help groups of women,
15:29 uh,
15:29 and getting
15:30 women collectives
15:31 to take on challenges of
15:34 s.
15:34 Sanitation,
15:35 uh,
15:35 challenges of jobs,
15:37 uh,
15:37 challenge of getting access to,
15:39 uh,
15:39 uh,
15:40 to,
15:40 to credit,
15:41 uh,
15:42 and when you go and meet,
15:43 uh,
15:43 with these self-help groups of women,
15:45 you find,
15:46 uh,
15:46 uh,
15:47 extraordinary changes.
15:49 Uh,
15:49 first of all
15:50 we talk about non-performing assets in the banking
15:53 sector 10-11% crisis in the corporate world.
15:56 Non-performing
15:57 assets of self-help groups of women who have borrowed in the last decade plus
16:03 close to $30 if not $40 billion
16:06 is
16:07 less than 1%.
16:09 So if you think
16:10 investing in women is not uh the smart thing to do,
16:13 you've not looked at the at the data,
16:15 but
16:16 that too was an innovation.
16:17 But an innovation that didn't come from within the bank,
16:19 it came from
16:20 countries like mine,
16:22 Bangladesh,
16:23 uh,
16:23 BRAC,
16:23 and Grameen,
16:25 knowing the power of,
16:26 of bringing women into the forefront of development.
16:30 Thank you,
16:30 Jeanne.
16:31 Deepa.
16:31 In fact,
16:31 we have a question from the audience which I'll combine with a question I had.
16:36 There's a question,
16:36 uh,
16:36 from Kabir,
16:37 and he asks about
16:39 how one expects the workplace to change
16:42 over the next 5 years to encourage more women and.
16:45 Work now
16:46 you hear Janay talk about these different tactical strategies
16:49 applied operationally by government NGOs to try and interrupt norms.
16:53 Is that possible?
16:54 And if we suppose reflected on Kabir's question as well,
16:57 looking at the workplace in particular,
16:59 how do you think that can be done?
17:01 I think,
17:01 uh,
17:01 I could give you a whole list of things that need to be done.
17:04 I think what's important is framing the question
17:07 what's the fundamental problem?
17:09 I think the fundamental problem is that the world has been designed.
17:14 By men for men.
17:16 And that's not to attack men,
17:18 but just like you said,
17:19 it's a postcolonial
17:20 phenomenon.
17:21 So the fact that you have hours from 9 to 5
17:25 is designed for men.
17:27 So and why does it persist that way?
17:29 And that's because of the power gap.
17:32 So
17:33 if men are still in the decision making primarily
17:35 even though the World Bank has made a difference.
17:38 Men see it through men's eyes.
17:40 It's very simple.
17:41 So if women were in charge,
17:43 perhaps the work hours would be 10 to 4,
17:46 and everyone would be happier,
17:48 men too,
17:49 because women can take care of the care of the home,
17:52 the children as good men.
17:55 And be happier and more productive
17:57 at work.
17:58 It's a fallacy to think that the longer you're at work,
18:01 the more productive you are.
18:02 The evidence for that is very weak.
18:05 So,
18:06 uh,
18:07 you spoke about uh
18:09 women,
18:09 poor women.
18:10 So if we take this question
18:11 and look it through a power lens at work.
18:14 The two things,
18:15 uh,
18:15 that would make a real difference.
18:17 One is
18:18 how do women get to work
18:19 and so that gets us into all the barriers in transport.
18:23 I think we've really,
18:24 really
18:25 misunderstood and not understood
18:27 the importance of safety,
18:30 safety for women to get to work.
18:32 So
18:33 being rational.
18:34 Creatures,
18:35 parents and women and men
18:37 make decisions on is it worth
18:40 what's the cost benefit of a woman going to work
18:43 if salaries are low and every time you step
18:45 out of the house is guerrilla warfare in terms of
18:49 sexual harassment or being looked at or being pinched
18:52 it's not worth doing it.
18:54 Second,
18:55 you see,
18:55 in terms of the data,
18:56 more recent data is what's being called the commute gap,
19:00 right?
19:00 Women,
19:00 30% of women work of those who work work within 1 kilometer of their homes.
19:05 Why is that?
19:06 Because it's against the calculation to minimize the risks.
19:11 So then you get to work,
19:12 right?
19:13 and then what happens there is all the biases that both women and men have
19:18 come into play.
19:21 And this does not mean that either women or men are bad,
19:24 but we are unconscious of these biases so that the system
19:28 continues even though you may have formal rules in play.
19:31 So if we assume that there's a power difference and an influence difference,
19:36 the more you equalize that,
19:38 the more you will get very different perspectives,
19:41 and we need to redesign the workspace so that it fits women as well as men.
19:46 So even very simply,
19:47 air conditioning,
19:48 temperatures when I was coming in my car.
19:50 Uh,
19:51 in my taxi,
19:52 the driver had just a shirt
19:54 and I had a huge jacket and I was still cold,
19:57 right,
19:58 so there are differences between men and women,
20:00 those should not be,
20:02 it shouldn't be the case that women's,
20:04 uh,
20:04 differences are discounted women's,
20:07 uh.
20:08 Biology is discounted
20:11 or devalued
20:12 and men's is elevated so we're talking
20:14 about making equalizing that is what's important
20:18 and this will take different forms and different cultures,
20:22 right?
20:22 so it's,
20:23 it's
20:23 redesigning and being really creative
20:26 of how we can get the most,
20:28 the greatest potential of women as well as men.
20:31 Thanks Deepa.
20:32 Jane,
20:32 this is my last question,
20:33 and I'll again combine it with a question from Additi,
20:36 um,
20:37 who's joining us.
20:38 um,
20:39 you know what she says is there are lots of rules and programs in play,
20:42 but they're not very well enforced,
20:44 so she talks about harassment guidelines and she uses that example
20:48 going forward,
20:49 where do you think this conversation around gender equality,
20:53 be it through the.
20:54 Design of programs or giving language as you started with,
20:58 where is it going to go in the future and where would you like it to
21:01 to go using your famous,
21:03 you know,
21:03 where is the puck going to be?
21:04 I've heard you say that
21:06 where do you,
21:06 what,
21:06 what are your reflections on the future of this conversation?
21:10 So
21:11 and I look at
21:13 uh
21:13 the evolution of gender equality in different
21:16 parts of the world.
21:19 I unfortunately.
21:21 Can't
21:22 identify
21:25 enough,
21:25 uh,
21:25 if you will,
21:27 drivers that I could say
21:28 this is the way we go.
21:30 You look at the United States,
21:32 one of the biggest drivers
21:33 uh was World War 2
21:35 or or the World Wars where the men went to war
21:38 and suddenly women had to be brought into the workforce.
21:41 I look at Bangladesh.
21:43 The fascinating thing,
21:44 uh,
21:45 was,
21:45 uh,
21:46 the.
21:47 OPEC
21:48 oil crisis of the 70s
21:51 and
21:52 all the men folk of villages in Bangladesh went to the Middle East to work.
21:57 Well,
21:57 guess who came into the uh uh into the market?
22:00 Women
22:00 and all the remittances.
22:02 Guess where that went?
22:03 It went in the hands of women
22:05 and that changed the nature
22:07 uh of the dialogue in Bangladesh rural
22:10 of the role of women in uh uh in society
22:14 but.
22:15 It's hard for me
22:17 to understand
22:19 where these shocks will come from and where these openings will be,
22:22 so
22:23 my own personal view
22:24 is you have to work.
22:27 In on several platforms,
22:28 I think one platform is service delivery
22:30 and to look at where service delivery
22:32 can be shaped
22:33 to engage women
22:35 clearly
22:36 when you come to transport,
22:37 public safety,
22:39 if you don't engage there you're not gonna
22:40 get women into the into into the workforce.
22:43 So
22:43 how does service delivery change
22:45 is one area we need to look at.
22:47 A second area
22:49 has to be,
22:50 uh,
22:50 the political advocacy,
22:52 the politics.
22:53 How do you get more women into politics,
22:56 into panchayats,
22:57 into local governments?
22:58 Uh,
22:59 I think that'll change the nature
23:01 of,
23:01 uh,
23:01 uh,
23:02 of the whole debate about,
23:04 about women.
23:04 The third area
23:06 is the labor force participation of women.
23:08 We know that in South Asia
23:09 and in India in particular,
23:11 the fall has been quite,
23:12 uh,
23:12 dramatic,
23:13 um.
23:15 What are the barriers and how do you reengage women into the
23:19 into the labor force,
23:20 uh,
23:21 this becomes very important
23:22 it's very clear
23:23 that
23:24 the nature of the job,
23:26 uh,
23:26 how far is it from the home,
23:28 uh,
23:28 can,
23:29 uh,
23:29 women get access to child care which gives them a very different,
23:33 uh,
23:33 uh,
23:33 different
23:34 setting but all of these areas service delivery,
23:37 uh,
23:38 political role of women,
23:39 labor force participation requires
23:42 active
23:43 uh intervention.
23:44 Uh,
23:45 and so when you ask me
23:47 what is it that I would like to look at,
23:49 I would like to look for,
23:50 I would look like to look at
23:53 leadership in public policy
23:55 that actively looks at this,
23:57 doesn't look at it passively,
23:58 right?
23:59 That's the,
23:59 that's where we have to have to focus,
24:02 but there is something that's happening today that I think gives us an opening
24:06 it's this whole
24:08 technology
24:09 changing
24:10 nature of work,
24:11 the future of work.
24:13 I think technology
24:14 is opening up work
24:16 in a gender neutral way
24:19 that's the opportunity
24:21 to truly push women into the into the labor force
24:24 the informal market
24:26 is now the new normal
24:28 informal is the new normal if that's true,
24:31 how do we engage in the informal sector because I think that's where
24:34 women can play a bigger role because of
24:37 their relationship in terms of the of the household
24:40 uh
24:41 so.
24:42 The answer that I give is perhaps uh
24:46 uh how shall I say not satisfactory enough that here are the three lessons,
24:50 but I think the opportunities out there
24:53 for us to consciously
24:55 uh shift the game
24:56 uh towards getting women into the workforce,
24:58 uh,
24:59 and I think that language
25:00 uh today and the opportunity today
25:03 is very different,
25:04 uh,
25:04 different,
25:05 uh,
25:05 from before.
25:06 Thanks Janil Deepa.
25:07 I,
25:07 I,
25:08 we're already a bit over time but.
25:09 I'm going to turn to you maybe in 2 to 3 minutes
25:13 given what Junaid is talking about
25:15 that women in the workforce are,
25:17 you know,
25:17 the future of that change,
25:19 be it in policy making,
25:20 political roles,
25:21 or in,
25:22 in new forms of jobs,
25:23 what message would you give to young working women entering the workforce now?
25:29 I'm going to respond a bit to Janaid's question and then answer that.
25:33 I think,
25:34 uh,
25:34 I agree with everything that you've said.
25:36 I think in the economic sphere what's been missing.
25:39 Is the integration or looking at the economic
25:43 issues through a lens of the
25:46 prejudiced
25:47 or biased social norms
25:49 when I travel in the rural areas,
25:51 women who've been part of self help groups
25:54 are happy and the men are happy because they're producing money
25:57 so there's a danger that women become
26:00 ATMs.
26:01 Without the cultural
26:03 foundation changing,
26:05 so the moment the money stops coming,
26:08 then you're back to
26:09 your only Lakshmi,
26:11 your own,
26:12 you,
26:12 you're,
26:12 you're the goddess,
26:13 but during the day we beat you up.
26:16 That's sort of the danger that I see.
26:19 I think the message to young women is that
26:22 it's your time
26:23 go out there,
26:25 fight for change,
26:26 don't be quiet
26:28 and form alliances form networks with other women,
26:31 with other men,
26:32 because if
26:33 one woman
26:34 challenges the system,
26:36 it's you have to be very,
26:38 very strong so you don't collapse because the
26:40 whole system comes down on the single woman.
26:43 But if women form alliances,
26:45 then a lot of change is possible
26:48 and the young women today are smart,
26:50 they're talented,
26:51 they're ready to go out and take on the world.
26:54 Thanks Deepa.
26:55 So I think we've
26:57 two big messages,
26:58 I think from both of you.
26:59 One is on
27:00 alliance building and networks,
27:03 and the other is of course the role of
27:05 redesigning how the workplace itself is organized increasingly.
27:09 Uh,
27:09 be it within institutions,
27:10 I think Janeida,
27:11 thank you for your honest comments.
27:13 In fact,
27:13 even on the World Bank as an institution on some of these issues,
27:16 be it outside,
27:17 and
27:17 men have a huge role to play.
27:20 Without inclusion of men,
27:21 we're not going to see the changes we want to see.
27:23 No,
27:23 I think that's a,
27:24 that's a very important point.
27:25 This is,
27:26 this is about a joint effort.
27:28 Yes,
27:29 yeah,
27:29 absolutely.
27:31 Thank you both so much for this extremely useful conversation.
27:35 Um,
27:35 this was live streamed.
27:37 Please do share,
27:38 um,
27:39 using the hashtag equal at Work,
27:41 uh,
27:41 on multiple social media platforms and look forward to another panel later today
27:46 which is on social norms,
27:47 uh,
27:48 much more focused on,
27:49 on those issues.
27:50 Thanks so much for everyone who joined us and thank you both.
27:53 Thank you.
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