00:02 After
00:03 that session,
00:05 the panel discussion,
00:06 perfect.
00:06 Thank you.
00:13 Welcome to everyone online.
00:14 As we get started in the room,
00:15 please feel free to introduce yourself in the chat.
00:24 Were you able to do that OK.
00:31 And I think also in the room,
00:32 we can slowly take our um seats and
00:36 start it off.
00:37 I believe more people will come,
00:39 but the chat is already full,
00:40 so I don't wanna make
00:42 anyone wait.
00:51 Thank you very much.
00:54 OK.
01:02 Hey.
01:03 Welcome everyone.
01:04 Hello.
01:05 Um,
01:06 hello to everyone in the room and everyone in the chat.
01:09 Again,
01:09 we are a full chat today.
01:12 Um,
01:13 it's wonderful to be here for the launch of the
01:15 Handbook on urban heat Management in the global South.
01:19 Especially to be here,
01:20 here at the United Nations office in Nairobi in such an urban
01:25 But still green and spacious place.
01:28 It really reminds us what can happen when urban life and nature coexist.
01:35 Um,
01:35 so it's a fitting venue to discuss how cities
01:37 can stay livable and resilient as the planet warms.
01:41 The handbook,
01:42 um,
01:43 we're launching today helps cities turn this challenge into action.
01:47 It provides city leaders,
01:48 planners,
01:49 and practitioners with practical guidance on plan,
01:53 prepare,
01:53 and respond to the growing threat of urban heat.
01:57 And our goal today is not just talk about the problem,
02:00 but actually exchange
02:02 what solutions there are and
02:04 are about like are on the way.
02:07 Um,
02:08 let me quickly guide you through the agenda because we have a special agenda today,
02:12 not just the panel,
02:14 uh,
02:14 discussion,
02:15 but,
02:16 um,
02:16 Ragav,
02:17 if you
02:18 turn to the next slide.
02:20 Um,
02:20 so we will have welcoming remarks,
02:23 um,
02:24 by,
02:25 um,
02:26 Mr.
02:26 Fernstrom,
02:27 um,
02:28 and after that,
02:29 a fireside chat where two of the authors will,
02:32 uh,
02:32 answer our questions regarding the details of the handbook,
02:36 followed by a panel,
02:37 a high-level panel on urban heat.
02:39 Um,
02:41 and lastly,
02:42 no,
02:42 not lastly,
02:43 first,
02:43 then we will take Q&As,
02:45 um,
02:45 and have a discussion.
02:47 And in the second section of the um event today,
02:51 we will have a World Cafe.
02:52 Our goal with that is to
02:54 actually exchange and come together.
02:57 The details on that,
02:58 I will explain after the panel,
03:00 um,
03:00 but be prepared to
03:02 really engage with the contents of the handbook.
03:06 So to start us.
03:09 Before the cafe,
03:10 that's an important question,
03:11 sorry to the online um
03:13 participants,
03:14 you can get some coffee in the break,
03:15 but
03:16 we will have snacks and coffee and tea provided here.
03:19 We will guide you to the,
03:21 to the place where to find them.
03:23 Um,
03:24 so it really pays off to stay.
03:28 Um,
03:28 to start us off,
03:29 I'm very pleased to introduce Mr.
03:31 Eric Ferhnstrom,
03:32 the Regional Practice Director for infrastructure at the World Bank,
03:36 um,
03:36 in the Eastern and Southern
03:38 Africa region.
03:40 Eric oversees a lending portfolio of over
03:42 $26 billion US dollars spanning the energy,
03:46 transport,
03:46 and urban development sectors
03:49 with personally more than 25 years of experience
03:52 from his early work in the energy industry
03:55 to leading major energy.
03:56 Reform and access programs across Africa.
04:00 He brings deep insights into how
04:02 infrastructure and innovation
04:04 can work to uh together to address challenges like extreme heat.
04:09 So I'm
04:09 very pleased
04:11 um
04:12 to um
04:13 welcome Eric
04:15 for his opening remarks.
04:19 Thank you,
04:20 Udugo and thanks for,
04:22 for having us uh here uh as was mentioned,
04:25 I'm Eric Ferhnstrom,
04:27 uh,
04:27 I cover
04:29 infrastructure where,
04:30 which we define as transport,
04:32 energy and urban
04:35 and disaster risk management issues
04:38 across
04:38 Eastern and Southern Africa.
04:41 At the World Bank,
04:42 and I've been living,
04:43 uh,
04:43 I had the great pleasure to live here in Nairobi for the almost 5 years now.
04:48 Um,
04:48 so,
04:49 I'm,
04:49 I'm one of many that are enjoying the fantastic climate of this city
04:55 and I think that it,
04:56 it applies also very well on
04:59 today's subject.
05:00 So,
05:00 first of all,
05:01 uh,
05:02 thanks to everyone,
05:03 including online for joining.
05:06 Thanks to UN Habitat and UNEP for the hosting and
05:09 for the partnership that has made this work possible.
05:12 And to the UK government for the financial support,
05:15 uh,
05:16 to produce this very,
05:17 very
05:18 important
05:19 handbook.
05:21 Um.
05:22 Extreme heat has become one of the
05:24 most pressing development challenges of our century.
05:28 It's already the deadliest climate-related hazard,
05:31 and cities across Africa and the global South is quietly
05:35 cutting into the foundation of growth,
05:37 jobs and productivity
05:39 and performance of our infrastructure.
05:41 When it gets too hot,
05:42 people can't work,
05:44 power grids and transport infrastructure
05:47 fail or slow down.
05:49 And the costs
05:50 to economies and human well-being is enormous.
05:54 This handbook on urban heat management
05:57 is therefore much more than a report.
05:59 It is a tool,
06:00 and I would say a call for action.
06:03 Together with UN Habitat at UNEP,
06:05 we wanted to provide practical guidance that cities can use right now
06:10 to build resilience,
06:11 protect workers,
06:12 and keep services running.
06:14 Managing heat is not just about comfort.
06:17 It's about economic competitiveness,
06:20 human capital,
06:20 and the resilience of systems that sustain growth.
06:25 We are already seeing this come to life.
06:27 Cape Town's green corridors are creating jobs
06:29 while reducing surface temperatures and improving drainage.
06:33 Dakar is cooling public spaces around markets and transport hubs,
06:37 helping informal traders stay active even during heat waves.
06:42 Nairobi is testing reflective roofing and early warning
06:45 systems to protect communities and small enterprises.
06:49 These examples show that building heat resilience can also build opportunity.
06:55 Today's launch is about turning the momentum into action.
06:58 We are here with representatives of government,
07:01 development partners,
07:02 academia and private sector
07:04 to identify ways of how to make heat management
07:07 a central part of how we plan,
07:10 finance,
07:10 and build cities.
07:12 The World Bank.
07:12 is proud to stand with our UN partners
07:15 to help cities translate this knowledge into investments,
07:20 protecting lives,
07:21 creating and protecting jobs,
07:23 and shaping a cooler,
07:25 more resilient future for all.
07:27 So,
07:28 I'm looking forward to the exchange today and
07:31 frankly to as an energy guy,
07:33 to learn from all of you
07:35 about the actions that we are about to deploy.
07:39 On urban heat management um across the continent and beyond.
07:43 Thank you very much.
07:50 So I would say then let's move on to our fireside chat.
07:54 Um,
07:55 can I ask the authors and our moderators,
07:57 Serene,
07:58 to our little
08:00 fireside circle.
08:02 The fire are the questions.
08:06 Um,
08:07 let me give you the microphone.
08:09 Oh,
08:09 did you get one?
08:10 OK,
08:12 we will share,
08:13 yeah.
08:22 Good morning,
08:23 afternoon,
08:23 everyone.
08:24 My name is Serene Garakadatam.
08:25 I'm Program Management Officer for Climate Change
08:28 at the United Nations Human Settlements Program.
08:30 I have the absolute honor today to have the two authors,
08:34 um,
08:34 and co-authors here
08:36 represented,
08:36 and we have a couple of,
08:38 uh,
08:38 tricky questions for them
08:40 for,
08:40 uh,
08:40 their response.
08:41 And to enlighten us a little bit
08:44 how the um report came about and the essence of the report
08:48 and the partners have been engaged as well.
08:49 So
08:50 today with me,
08:51 I have um Abas Jia.
08:53 Uh,
08:53 you're the practice manager at World Bank leading the urban
08:56 resilience and Land Development in Eastern and Southern Africa,
08:59 and you're based here in Nairobi,
09:00 so Karibo.
09:02 Um,
09:02 and you're here since July,
09:03 I hear,
09:04 and before you've been with the World Bank as well in,
09:07 um,
09:08 South Asia and East Asia
09:09 for a long time and have been working in Latin
09:11 America and the Caribbean serving the Indian Administrative Service.
09:14 So
09:15 great experience there
09:16 all around the world,
09:18 uh,
09:18 especially in the global South,
09:19 which would be very important for today's report.
09:21 And then we have here Jack.
09:23 It's a pleasure to finally meet you in person after a long engagement.
09:26 An urbanist based in South Africa,
09:28 and also working on urban resilience projects for the World Bank,
09:31 South Africa,
09:32 Botswana,
09:33 Rwanda,
09:33 South Sudan,
09:34 focusing on heat resilience
09:36 and um
09:37 cities for nation building and tourism.
09:39 And you have conducted uh or achieved a PhD
09:43 in sustainable urbanization in Paris,
09:44 Cairo,
09:45 and Cairo.
09:46 Um,
09:46 so we have really
09:48 quite distinguished,
09:49 uh,
09:49 speakers here that can
09:51 walk us a little bit through the,
09:52 um,
09:53 report itself.
09:54 And maybe let me just ask with a simple question to you,
09:56 Abbas.
09:57 What was the motivation for the report?
10:00 So,
10:01 uh,
10:01 thank you very much,
10:02 Serene,
10:02 and uh I want to begin by just uh echoing Eric's remarks that uh
10:06 I want to thank UN Habitat and UNEP for their partnership and of,
10:10 of course,
10:11 UKFCDO for funding this study.
10:13 Now,
10:14 um,
10:14 coming to your question,
10:15 so this work began when I was in South Asia.
10:18 And,
10:18 uh,
10:19 you know,
10:20 as Eric said,
10:20 you know,
10:21 we'd
10:22 here in Nairobi,
10:22 it's easy to forget heat as a,
10:24 as a major challenge because of the lovely weather we have here,
10:27 but in South Asia,
10:28 it's a,
10:28 it's a,
10:30 it's a really pressing uh problem
10:32 and uh
10:34 in 2019,
10:35 the government of India was one of the first uh
10:37 governments to release what they call a cooling action plan.
10:40 Uh,
10:41 and I think they,
10:43 they need to be praised for that sort of vision of,
10:45 of,
10:45 of,
10:46 of,
10:46 uh,
10:46 looking at,
10:47 you know,
10:47 cooling solutions and heat
10:49 as a challenge,
10:50 uh,
10:51 but the problem with that cooling action plan was that it's,
10:53 it's,
10:54 it's,
10:54 it was essentially a wish list
10:56 of different ministries
10:58 and,
10:58 and it,
10:58 uh,
10:58 there were no numbers around it,
11:00 there was no,
11:00 um,
11:01 sort of,
11:01 uh,
11:02 you know,
11:02 overarching framework
11:04 to organize uh the response.
11:07 So,
11:08 the first thing we did in the World Bank was
11:10 we prepared what was called an investment plan around that,
11:12 and we tried to put some rigor and numbers behind what
11:16 would it take for India,
11:17 what does India need to invest
11:19 if they want to
11:20 uh operationalize the cooling action plan.
11:23 And
11:24 this handbook that you're seeing is actually uh sort of the second stage of that,
11:27 that,
11:28 uh,
11:29 study.
11:30 Uh,
11:30 as an aside,
11:31 um,
11:31 you know,
11:32 somewhat lighter vein,
11:33 I've done two handbooks in the past,
11:34 one on cities and floods and one on
11:36 housing reconstruction
11:38 after disasters.
11:39 So,
11:39 that also was at the back of my mind
11:42 that uh these uh handbooks could be very uh useful for,
11:46 um,
11:47 decision makers,
11:47 policymakers on the ground.
11:49 So,
11:49 the idea was very much not to produce an academic study,
11:53 but to produce something that is useful for people who are actually struggling
11:56 um
11:57 uh with this problem.
11:59 Uh,
11:59 I'll just say one thing more,
12:01 which is that
12:02 we are seeing
12:04 many cities around the world recognizing this problem and,
12:07 uh,
12:07 11 evidence of that is that
12:10 many cities now have cooling action plans
12:12 or,
12:12 or heat,
12:13 heat as the action plans.
12:16 Now,
12:16 the again,
12:17 the problem with many of these heat action plans is that they are uh
12:20 almost like a disaster response plan,
12:22 like,
12:22 let's,
12:23 what to do after
12:24 there's a problem.
12:26 There's no uh sort of uh
12:28 uh preemptive action
12:30 in these uh plans,
12:31 and this is uh something that we've tried to fill through this handbook.
12:35 So,
12:35 let me stop there.
12:37 That's an excellent genesis.
12:39 Thank you so much,
12:39 um,
12:40 Abbas.
12:41 Then maybe then over to you,
12:42 Jack.
12:43 Um,
12:43 how was the pre-report then created from that initiation to,
12:47 and also with the partners to what it is today?
12:51 Yes.
12:52 Thank you,
12:52 Serene,
12:52 and,
12:52 and thank you everyone for,
12:54 for attending this session.
12:55 So I joined,
12:56 I think the,
12:57 the team working on the sandbox only 1.5 years and the process has been much longer.
13:01 So you mentioned 2019,
13:02 but it's been a couple of years going
13:04 to where we are today.
13:06 Um,
13:06 so first,
13:07 I would like to,
13:08 um,
13:08 acknowledge the people who have been working on it from the beginning,
13:10 which is Ella,
13:11 Mhul,
13:12 Deepak,
13:12 and others from our team who have been leading some of the work,
13:15 mostly in South Asia for a very long time
13:17 and where the need resulted out of their ongoing work.
13:20 So this was the starting point.
13:22 But then we also had great teams from Atkins and the Red Cross Climate Center,
13:25 um,
13:26 Victoria,
13:27 Sita,
13:27 Daramis,
13:27 Eddie,
13:28 Eddie,
13:28 and many others
13:29 who have been doing a lot of the groundwork,
13:31 the preparatory,
13:32 the case study collection,
13:33 um,
13:33 the research,
13:34 the,
13:34 the conceptual framing,
13:35 and so on.
13:36 So it's been collaborative already in that sense,
13:39 but then there was a huge,
13:40 um,
13:41 let's say,
13:41 ground roofing and
13:44 Getting insight from different sectors.
13:46 So there were interviews across the global South conducted by the,
13:49 primarily by the Climate Center.
13:51 Um,
13:52 there were a couple of workshops,
13:53 one in India at one of the,
13:55 um,
13:55 big events on,
13:56 on heat risk management
13:58 with many stakeholders from government,
14:00 from academia,
14:01 from private sector.
14:02 We had our internal,
14:03 um,
14:04 mechanisms,
14:04 which we opened up as well.
14:05 So we had Lio,
14:06 for example,
14:07 which many of you know.
14:08 Um,
14:08 who is working with both UNEP and UN Habitat on,
14:11 on heat management,
14:12 who has been,
14:12 I think,
14:13 deputy mayor for Greek for Athens in the beginning
14:16 on,
14:17 on heat management.
14:18 So we really try to get together everyone,
14:20 um,
14:21 who has been working on it
14:22 and focus on,
14:24 let's say,
14:24 getting the,
14:26 the scientific basis right,
14:27 but we don't see a huge lack in that.
14:29 There are some limitations,
14:30 for example,
14:31 on defining what is the,
14:33 Uh,
14:33 what is the actual
14:35 threshold in one place compared to another.
14:37 So there's,
14:37 the discussions are still ongoing,
14:39 so we try to cover that,
14:40 but otherwise,
14:41 we try to focus very much on case studies from the
14:43 global south and approaches which work in the global South.
14:46 And I think this is,
14:47 this is one important part.
14:48 And then finally,
14:49 you already mentioned the,
14:50 the support from the UN government,
14:52 uh,
14:52 the UK government,
14:53 sorry.
14:54 And,
14:54 um,
14:55 but a very important part,
14:56 and this is a
14:56 more recent,
14:57 um,
14:59 collaboration,
14:59 I think maybe for the past 9 months or so
15:01 with UN Habitat and UNEP
15:03 through,
15:04 um,
15:04 facilitated through Liar because we didn't want it to be,
15:07 OK,
15:07 this is now the World Bank handbook,
15:08 and then next year you come with the UN Habitat
15:10 handbook and the year after with the UNEP handbook.
15:13 And again,
15:13 we,
15:13 we give very,
15:14 um,
15:16 Say,
15:17 not aligned advice to our,
15:20 our clients,
15:20 the governments we're working with.
15:22 So I think that has been a really,
15:23 um,
15:23 instrumental process over the last months to make sure that we have a joint message,
15:28 a joint prioritization around cooling,
15:30 around planning,
15:30 about policy advice and so on.
15:32 And I think this is the,
15:35 The main message on how the report is created,
15:37 it's really a collaborative approach,
15:39 and we try to involve everyone which we could
15:41 to make sure that this is the best
15:43 advice we can give at this stage,
15:45 and then we'll have to elaborate,
15:47 of course,
15:47 further in the future.
15:49 Excellent,
15:49 and it's very,
15:51 very well appreciated to have so many actors in there
15:54 that really enhance the,
15:55 the practicality of that
15:57 book.
15:57 And
15:58 that brings me actually to the next question.
16:00 Um,
16:01 it's,
16:01 it's a one-sided handbook,
16:03 another side,
16:04 a kind of a management tool for cities.
16:06 Um,
16:06 what do you aim to achieve Abbas,
16:07 with that report?
16:10 So I want to say that I don't think
16:12 any of us are,
16:13 you know,
16:14 especially city decision makers know what's about to hit them.
16:18 Um,
16:18 it,
16:19 it,
16:19 it is a really,
16:20 really grim problem that we're facing
16:22 and,
16:23 uh,
16:23 you know,
16:24 uh,
16:25 I mean,
16:26 I come from India and,
16:27 you know,
16:27 you can see it around you every day,
16:29 you know,
16:29 the people,
16:30 the poor people who work out
16:32 in the,
16:32 you know,
16:32 the,
16:33 the guards who guard your houses or your offices,
16:36 you know,
16:36 people who work in the fields,
16:38 they will not be able to earn their livelihood.
16:39 It's just as simple as that.
16:41 Uh,
16:42 and
16:43 by one estimate,
16:44 we,
16:44 um,
16:45 just for Africa,
16:46 we estimate that by 2030,
16:48 the equivalent of 80 million jobs will be lost
16:51 just due to heat.
16:52 Um,
16:53 so those are staggering numbers
16:55 and I don't think our,
16:56 you know,
16:56 for example,
16:56 our social protection systems are not set up
16:59 to deal with this kind of,
17:00 uh,
17:00 problem.
17:02 Um,
17:04 So sorry,
17:04 what was your problem?
17:05 What was your question?
17:07 But,
17:08 um,
17:08 the question was what would you then like to achieve with it?
17:10 So
17:11 I guess what I'd like to achieve and what we'd all
17:13 like to achieve is that we start mainstreaming this kind of thinking
17:17 into investment decisions,
17:20 into actual action on the ground.
17:22 Um,
17:23 it's,
17:23 it's a clear and present danger,
17:25 and I guess,
17:26 uh,
17:27 you know,
17:27 everyone needs to wake up,
17:28 uh,
17:29 and smell the coffee.
17:30 Um,
17:32 so that,
17:32 that,
17:32 that's what we would like to achieve.
17:35 But
17:35 so that's probably maybe the sort of the bad,
17:37 bad news,
17:38 but let me give you some good news.
17:40 I think on the positive side,
17:42 for example,
17:43 the cost of remote sensing of satellite data has dropped exponentially.
17:49 So now you can get granular neighborhood level
17:52 heat data
17:53 quite easily.
17:53 You know,
17:54 NASA has,
17:55 uh,
17:55 I think it's called EcoStress,
17:57 and then,
17:58 uh,
17:58 the ESA,
17:59 the European Space Agency has
18:01 similar,
18:01 uh,
18:02 so 70 m is for free.
18:04 It's right up there.
18:05 Anybody can download it.
18:06 For the 10 m,
18:07 it's still not free,
18:08 but I'm sure that in the next,
18:09 you know,
18:10 couple of years,
18:11 a lot of it is going to
18:12 be made free and in fact,
18:13 Google just announced big.
18:15 Um,
18:16 um,
18:17 advancements in
18:18 the use of AI on geospatial data
18:20 called Alpha-Earth.
18:21 So,
18:21 you could go into Alpha-Earth,
18:23 those of you who are interested,
18:25 Please do play around with it.
18:26 You can go and say,
18:27 ask like,
18:28 give me the 10 hottest cities in Africa and,
18:30 you know,
18:30 it'll give you a decent answer.
18:32 So,
18:32 I think that's one big positive thing that our data,
18:35 that our ability to
18:37 synthesize and uh produce actionable data
18:40 has really improved
18:42 at almost zero cost.
18:44 So,
18:44 I think that's one thing,
18:45 but
18:47 what
18:47 lies ahead is,
18:48 I think,
18:49 again,
18:49 this partnership,
18:50 I can see a partnership where
18:53 UNEP takes the lead on things like procurement of,
18:56 you know,
18:56 low-cost buildings,
18:57 uh,
18:58 um,
18:58 building materials
18:59 that are,
19:00 um,
19:01 you know,
19:01 um,
19:02 heat-friendly.
19:04 Um,
19:04 UN Habitat can take the lead on things like codes,
19:07 you know,
19:07 embedding heat planning in thermal stress in,
19:10 in codes
19:12 and the World Bank can lead,
19:13 take the lead on investments.
19:15 And these are all complementary,
19:16 uh,
19:17 um,
19:18 uh,
19:18 things that we do.
19:19 Passive cooling,
19:20 um,
19:21 you,
19:22 you know,
19:23 we have to recognize that
19:24 most of the world will not be able to afford air conditioning
19:28 and therefore passive cooling is going to be a big part of the solution.
19:31 Appropriate building materials
19:33 is going to be part of uh the solution.
19:35 So,
19:35 I,
19:35 I guess that's a short summary of the things that we would like to happen.
19:40 Excellent.
19:41 You,
19:41 you brought in a couple of like solutions that are there that needed to be out there,
19:45 but I really also loved the fact when you said,
19:48 It became so much more cost-effective in data scarce,
19:51 uh,
19:52 environments to actually
19:54 drive evidence-based decisions for
19:56 better cooling solutions.
19:58 So,
19:58 um,
19:58 that's very promising
20:00 and hopefully even more for the audience to
20:02 really read and dive into the different chapters,
20:04 which brings me to the next question to you,
20:07 Chuck.
20:07 Um,
20:08 the report consists of three volumes.
20:10 Tell us more about them,
20:11 dive in there.
20:14 Yes.
20:14 So we,
20:15 we wanted one handbook,
20:16 but we knew that the audience would be very different.
20:19 We have policymakers who are not going to go,
20:21 like in the beginning,
20:21 I think we were at some point at 250 pages or something like this,
20:24 and we knew nobody is ever going to read through all of that.
20:27 So we wanted to make sure that we have something which we can give,
20:29 let's say a mayor,
20:31 uh,
20:31 a senior decision maker either at the city level or at the national government level
20:35 and give them something which they can go through
20:37 relatively quickly to understand what the challenge is,
20:40 the scale of the challenge.
20:41 So obviously,
20:41 you mentioned some numbers before.
20:43 To actually build the awareness in the first place,
20:45 but also that there are solutions already out there and methodologies and so on,
20:49 which are,
20:50 I wouldn't say straightforward,
20:51 but
20:52 there's enough evidence in order to,
20:54 to get them done.
20:55 So that's the first volume.
20:56 I think it's about 20 pages or so,
20:58 and we,
20:58 even if we all have it together in one document and we
21:01 would have wished to have a couple of copies here today,
21:04 but unfortunately they got stuck at the customs this morning.
21:07 Um,
21:08 so for those who are around or who are,
21:10 uh,
21:10 working with one of the organizations,
21:11 don't hesitate to reach out to some of us and you will be able to get a copy,
21:15 uh,
21:15 in the next days.
21:16 But,
21:17 um,
21:17 we print it as one because we still see it as one,
21:19 as one handbook,
21:20 but we have these 3 different parts.
21:22 First one really targeting decision makers.
21:24 The second one is then the core of the handbook.
21:26 So it's,
21:27 that's the technical part,
21:28 which goes step by step through all the different parts and
21:31 Uh,
21:31 we have different ways how we're categorizing them,
21:34 but in the,
21:35 like the main unders the main structure is
21:38 understanding.
21:38 So what is the problem?
21:39 How,
21:40 why is it a problem?
21:41 Is it actually only heat?
21:42 Is it humidity?
21:42 Is it,
21:43 um,
21:44 the exposure to direct sunlight and so on.
21:46 Like there,
21:46 there are different elements also around,
21:50 uh,
21:50 exposure,
21:50 risk,
21:51 vulnerability,
21:52 which groups are,
21:53 um,
21:54 are how vulnerable to heat in different situations.
21:58 Outside workers being a very target or very
22:00 important group because they're the ones most exposed,
22:03 and then assessing,
22:04 so how do we actually measure that?
22:06 And
22:07 there are a couple of methodologies,
22:08 for example,
22:08 not just looking at the temperature in itself,
22:11 but looking at temperature,
22:12 humidity interaction,
22:13 but also looking at health records,
22:15 for example,
22:16 to see
22:16 over the past years,
22:17 how much,
22:18 uh,
22:19 how many more people were admitted to the hospital
22:22 during heat waves in order to get a local estimate of what the impact actually is.
22:26 Um,
22:26 the third part is on planning,
22:28 so how to move forward,
22:29 and the last part only is on responding.
22:31 And I think this is also what you
22:33 alluded to a bit in the beginning.
22:35 Um,
22:35 traditionally,
22:35 it's been mostly response.
22:37 So something happens and then,
22:38 OK,
22:38 what can we do as quick as we can.
22:40 But now it's much more,
22:41 OK,
22:41 how can we prepare as much as we,
22:43 we can for that?
22:43 And finally,
22:44 the last one is,
22:45 is solutions.
22:46 That's just a selection of some of the best case studies which we found
22:50 in the global South.
22:51 So we didn't want to take stuff from Athens,
22:53 from Paris,
22:54 from other
22:55 European or American places,
22:56 but we looked for case studies from the global South,
22:59 and this is a work in progress.
23:00 So now we have a couple of solutions,
23:02 but we will,
23:03 um,
23:03 try to convert it to an online database,
23:06 which will be updated on a regular basis and which
23:09 Let's say provides enough inspiration for cities in the global South to say,
23:13 OK,
23:13 this is something which we can do as well,
23:15 even if it's just a small minor first step.
23:18 That's,
23:19 that's about it.
23:20 Could
23:21 I just add one point to this,
23:22 please.
23:23 So,
23:23 just one thing that we haven't uh mentioned,
23:25 which is that,
23:25 unfortunately,
23:26 this is another problem which the poor are hit disproportionately.
23:30 They are going to be hit much harder
23:32 than the rich.
23:32 Uh,
23:33 and this is something we need to recognize,
23:35 uh,
23:36 that the poor earn their livelihoods typically outside,
23:38 uh,
23:38 uh,
23:39 and,
23:40 uh,
23:40 they will be unable to do that.
23:42 Uh,
23:42 and also the old,
23:43 the vulnerable women,
23:45 these are again going to be disproportionately hit.
23:48 So,
23:48 I think in the solutions,
23:49 social protection is going to play a big role
23:52 and let,
23:52 let me just give you one idea,
23:53 which is parametric uh
23:55 insurance,
23:56 which is that,
23:57 and now with mobile money,
23:59 you know,
23:59 most countries have very uh quick ways of targeting and
24:03 transferring money.
24:04 You could say that
24:05 if the temperature is above 40 degrees for 2 days,
24:09 you get 2 days of wages automatically
24:11 transferred into your M-PESA account or whatever
24:14 it is.
24:14 Uh,
24:15 that's something that's simple to do.
24:17 It's targeted.
24:18 And you know it solves a real problem.
24:21 So we need to start thinking of these
24:22 kinds of solutions where we can use technology innovatively
24:25 to protect the poor
24:27 against this.
24:29 That's really excellent.
24:30 Thank you so much for both of those insight,
24:32 and I like
24:33 the fact
24:33 volume one is narrating it
24:37 a complex topic to,
24:38 in different languages,
24:39 to different audiences.
24:41 Um,
24:41 your second gives a lot of like
24:43 standardization approaches on method and assessment,
24:47 understanding
24:47 the problem,
24:48 risks,
24:49 exposure in a coherent way,
24:51 and then
24:52 understanding the steps of planning and,
24:55 Um,
24:55 the response action rather than having just the response,
24:58 but having actually a preparedness cycle embedded.
25:01 And the last is really the voice of the Global South,
25:04 which is the,
25:05 of course,
25:06 the title of the report,
25:07 um,
25:08 which we often miss out where we have a lot of solutions,
25:11 as you said,
25:11 that are And not transferable or applicable.
25:14 So I'm really excited to hear of that
25:16 many,
25:16 many vast experience from the Global South embedded in those volumes.
25:21 So,
25:21 Abbs,
25:22 what is next?
25:23 What is it that you
25:25 think will come out of the report next,
25:27 maybe with those partners that were mentioned,
25:29 um,
25:30 we have here Yon Habitat,
25:31 YNE,
25:31 um,
25:32 present,
25:32 other actors there.
25:34 So what would you like to see to go on scale as next?
25:37 So I think,
25:38 I think we need to break it down into sort of short,
25:40 medium and long term.
25:41 So in a year,
25:42 what we would like ideally is that,
25:45 you know,
25:45 most cities in the world would have some form of a heat action plan.
25:49 Uh,
25:49 and,
25:50 and,
25:50 and that could be a first step again that we could do together,
25:53 UN Habitat,
25:54 UNEP,
25:54 and the World Bank,
25:56 uh,
25:56 and we can help in that.
25:58 Uh,
25:58 and I think data has to be a part of that,
26:00 uh,
26:01 neighborhood level data.
26:02 When you think about heat,
26:03 uh,
26:04 it's really three levels,
26:05 right?
26:05 It's the
26:06 building level,
26:07 the neighborhood level,
26:08 and then you have the city level.
26:10 So,
26:10 you need good data
26:11 to underpin,
26:12 uh,
26:13 the deci decisions being made.
26:14 So,
26:14 I would say that's the short term,
26:16 but looking out more to the medium and long term,
26:19 what we need to start thinking about is,
26:21 for example,
26:21 building codes,
26:23 uh,
26:23 and those are notoriously hard to fix,
26:26 you know,
26:26 um,
26:27 Um,
26:27 engineers are,
26:28 you know,
26:29 notoriously conservative
26:30 people.
26:31 Uh,
26:32 the joke about,
26:33 uh,
26:33 Portland cement,
26:34 I don't know how many
26:35 of you've heard this one
26:36 before,
26:37 is that
26:38 when we start talking about Portland cement is essentially
26:41 the same technology for the last 100 years plus,
26:44 uh,
26:45 because they don't want to take risks.
26:46 So,
26:46 when you go to an engineer and say that,
26:48 you know,
26:48 here's this alternative building material,
26:49 they say,
26:50 yeah,
26:51 use it for 100 years and then come back to us and we'll,
26:53 we'll talk to you.
26:54 So,
26:55 these,
26:55 these codes are hard to fix,
26:57 hard to mainstream,
26:59 but I think,
27:00 again,
27:00 with our collective,
27:01 uh,
27:02 sort of
27:03 voice,
27:04 we can,
27:05 we can influence,
27:06 you know,
27:06 ministries of construction and
27:08 planning,
27:09 uh,
27:09 so that is,
27:10 that's one and the second I would say is procurement.
27:12 In the procurement of,
27:14 you know,
27:14 for example,
27:15 affordable housing,
27:16 I think thermal comfort has to be part of it
27:19 and I just want to make one shout out to our South Asia team again,
27:22 which is that for the first time ever,
27:25 The Ministry of Rural Development in India,
27:27 which builds about 20 million houses
27:29 a year,
27:29 it's the largest
27:31 affordable housing
27:32 program in the world.
27:33 For the first time ever,
27:35 they have now invited the World Bank
27:37 to build thermal comfort into the housing.
27:40 So,
27:40 till now,
27:40 this was a program only focused on volume,
27:43 you know,
27:43 get the houses out.
27:44 Nobody cared whether the houses were worth living in or not.
27:47 Now they're actually going to look at thermal uh comfort.
27:50 So,
27:50 that's a big
27:51 step forward
27:52 and we can now mainstream that approach to other countries in Africa as well.
27:57 Excellent.
27:58 That is
27:59 really,
27:59 really forward-looking and,
28:00 uh,
28:01 promising,
28:01 and I think,
28:02 um,
28:02 entices us all to,
28:04 to come together for a bigger cause.
28:06 And with those insights,
28:07 we actually close our fireside chat,
28:09 and I hope I made it in time,
28:11 and I'm handing over to,
28:12 uh,
28:13 Do you for you to lead the panel discussion on urban heat management.
28:16 Thank you so much for that.
28:35 Thank you.
28:36 Thank you very much,
28:36 Serene,
28:37 and thank you,
28:38 Abbas and Jaak for
28:40 setting the stage.
28:41 Um,
28:42 we're now moving to our,
28:44 um,
28:44 panel discussion,
28:45 um,
28:47 in the spirit of one of the key messages
28:50 of the handbook which is partnership.
28:52 So we have representatives from Youn Habitat,
28:54 UNEP,
28:55 and,
28:56 um,
28:57 uh,
28:57 and the World Bank here.
29:00 Um,
29:01 so before I go into the introductions,
29:04 I just wanna make one
29:05 part clear because I think in the,
29:07 um,
29:07 before it wasn't.
29:14 Sorry.
29:15 No,
29:16 OK.
29:17 OK,
29:17 thank you.
29:18 This part is gonna be streamed online,
29:20 but unfortunately,
29:21 the next part is uh gonna be offline only,
29:24 so the World Cafe
29:25 will only take place here and not be streamed.
29:32 Oh
29:33 I need to turn it off and on again.
29:38 We haven't tested that.
29:40 I just try.
29:43 Oh,
29:43 OK.
29:46 OK.
29:46 Before I lose it again,
29:48 um,
29:49 let's continue with the introductions.
29:50 Um,
29:51 first,
29:51 I want to introduce Ms.
29:52 Mireillelatala,
29:53 head of Adaptation and Resilience Branch at the
29:56 United Nations Environment Program's Climate Change division.
30:00 Um,
30:00 Mireille holds two postgraduate degrees in
30:03 land use planning and environmental management and
30:06 policies and has over 20 years of professional working experience in the field.
30:11 Um,
30:12 in her own words,
30:13 Mireille's main goal in life is to bridge,
30:16 um,
30:16 the divide between the well-being of humans and that of the planet that hosts us.
30:21 So it's amazing to see such dedication here today.
30:24 Thank you for being here.
30:26 Um,
30:26 next,
30:27 we have Mr.
30:28 Bernard Bart,
30:29 direct,
30:29 um,
30:30 program coordinator,
30:31 um,
30:32 of climate change and urban environment at UN Habitat.
30:35 He kindly,
30:36 um,
30:36 joined us today.
30:37 Um,
30:38 maybe some of you saw or were expecting.
30:41 Mr.
30:41 Raphael Toetz,
30:42 director of Global Solutions division at UN Habitat,
30:45 but he sadly couldn't make it.
30:48 But Mr.
30:48 Bart has over two decades of experience working
30:52 across Asia and Africa on local governance,
30:55 urban resilience,
30:56 and capacity development.
30:58 Um,
30:59 with a professional career spanning architecture,
31:02 urban design,
31:03 and sustainable infrastructure in private and public sectors,
31:06 we're very excited to hear that,
31:08 um,
31:09 kind of multidisciplinary view,
31:10 um,
31:11 to how cities can adapt to rising climate risks.
31:13 So welcome,
31:14 Bernard.
31:15 And,
31:15 um,
31:16 lastly,
31:16 Mr.
31:17 Eric Ferhnstrom,
31:18 I've already introduced you,
31:19 um,
31:19 but very briefly,
31:20 our regional director for infrastructure in Eastern
31:23 and Southern Africa at the World Bank.
31:25 Welcome everyone.
31:26 I'm uh Dogu.
31:27 Uh,
31:27 I hadn't,
31:28 uh,
31:28 introduced myself before.
31:29 Uh,
31:30 Seren reminded me when she introduced herself.
31:32 Um,
31:32 I'm a fellow at the World Bank and
31:34 we're excited to start this conversation.
31:36 Um.
31:39 So,
31:39 let me start with my first question.
31:42 Um,
31:43 when
31:44 me at least,
31:45 I think of urban heat,
31:47 I,
31:47 or,
31:48 um,
31:49 heat in general,
31:50 uh,
31:50 I first think of the agricultural aspect of it such as leading food,
31:55 food insecurity,
31:57 um.
31:58 And malnutrition,
31:59 but the handbook shows that it's also an increasingly urban challenge
32:03 touching everything from jobs to health.
32:06 Um,
32:06 from your perspective,
32:08 what
32:09 makes extreme urban heat a defining issue for cities today?
32:14 Um,
32:15 maybe we can start with you,
32:16 Marais,
32:17 um.
32:19 What makes heat a defining issue in cities today?
32:23 Um,
32:24 sure,
32:24 thank you very much.
32:25 Uh,
32:26 and thank you very much for
32:28 this great partnership,
32:29 uh,
32:29 around this handbook.
32:30 I think,
32:31 uh,
32:31 it brings together
32:33 three entities that have a lot to offer and
32:35 three entities that have very specific roles and,
32:38 and complementarity,
32:39 uh,
32:40 in that space.
32:42 Um,
32:43 why,
32:44 so you know,
32:44 extreme heat is often,
32:46 as you said,
32:47 you know,
32:47 when you think about extreme heat,
32:48 it's often thought in rural areas and impacts on
32:52 agriculture,
32:53 food production,
32:54 and,
32:54 and also
32:57 workers in
32:59 outdoor settings.
33:00 So for example,
33:01 here in Kenya,
33:02 tea leaf pickers,
33:03 coffee pickers,
33:04 so on and so forth,
33:05 and there is,
33:06 we know that there is a
33:07 very high prevalence of,
33:09 for example,
33:10 kidney diseases that is coming up because of lack of hydration.
33:13 But
33:15 why is extreme heat also a matter that is of critical importance for cities?
33:20 First,
33:21 because we are,
33:22 I mean,
33:23 I'm going to state the obvious here,
33:25 but we are seeing an increase.
33:26 The
33:27 global population will be primarily in urban.
33:29 Population irrespective
33:31 of what part of the world we are at.
33:35 Second is because
33:36 oftentimes in urban settings,
33:39 progress is perceived as being more concrete,
33:43 more modern,
33:44 more glass,
33:45 more,
33:45 um,
33:47 you know,
33:47 more,
33:48 uh,
33:48 let's say modern
33:50 construction materials and approaches.
33:54 And with those
33:55 we know that they tend to trap heat.
33:58 There's there's an example of a full glass
34:02 building that acted a little bit like a
34:05 mirror or magnifying magnifying glass,
34:08 and that led to the melting of
34:11 tires in cars that were parked in front.
34:15 So that's the extent to which that concentration and density
34:19 in urban settings is actually can be affected by extreme heat.
34:24 Now from looking at what we,
34:28 what we
34:30 offer from UNEP side on the science part of things,
34:34 we,
34:35 we are looking for example
34:38 at the nationally determined contributions and at the
34:42 emissions contributions coming from,
34:44 from urban settings,
34:45 70%.
34:48 or 60% actually of global emissions are generated
34:52 by urban settings and by their broader footprint.
34:55 So if we want to do anything or something
34:58 about the mitigation agenda,
35:00 it starts and ends in cities,
35:01 if I can put it this way.
35:03 Second,
35:04 in cities,
35:05 and I think that Abbas has mentioned the equity dimension.
35:09 Um,
35:10 in,
35:10 in cities there's also a very,
35:12 a very high potential for deepening inequities,
35:17 whether they're social or economic.
35:20 And you've mentioned the rural to urban dichotomy.
35:23 Oftentimes there is also
35:25 the mitigation to adaptation dichotomy
35:28 or
35:30 the,
35:31 you know,
35:32 the,
35:32 the coping versus the redesigning dichotomy also in that space.
35:38 So
35:39 it's,
35:40 we often see that.
35:43 When you,
35:43 when we talk about cooling,
35:45 it's associated with the mitigation area,
35:47 so reducing greenhouse gas emissions,
35:49 so on and so forth.
35:50 When we talk about extreme heat,
35:52 it's associated with the adaptation side of things.
35:54 The reality is that it's one and it's one and the same.
35:58 How do we cope with extreme heat via cooling?
36:01 And unfortunately what we do not want to see
36:05 is a,
36:07 you know,
36:07 like air conditioning our way out of extreme heat is not going to happen.
36:12 And we are very,
36:13 very strong on that agenda
36:16 also because
36:18 of what it means in terms of pressure on power supply,
36:21 what it means in terms of,
36:23 I mean,
36:24 Nairobi is now starting to install air conditioning,
36:27 and this is just something that is
36:30 incomprehensible.
36:32 We do also want to think about,
36:34 and I will get to that maybe at a later stage,
36:36 but there's 22 dimensions of that air conditioning,
36:41 um,
36:42 uh,
36:43 response to coping with extreme heat.
36:45 One is increases in power demand,
36:48 um,
36:49 and those increases in power.
36:50 Demands even in areas or in countries
36:53 that have a tiered approach to energy billing
36:56 will mean that it's only the richer people that will be
36:59 able to afford the higher tier of the energy bill.
37:03 So that means deepening that economic and social divide.
37:09 Second
37:10 is that,
37:11 um,
37:11 um,
37:12 generally speaking,
37:13 cooling appliances and in particular,
37:15 uh,
37:15 air conditioning have
37:18 not only a contribution in terms of greenhouse gasses,
37:22 but also connect
37:23 to the,
37:24 but also connect to the Montreal Protocol agenda and in particular
37:29 in terms of short-lived climate pollutants and
37:33 in terms of ozone depleting substances.
37:36 So if we address that side of
37:39 The extreme response to extreme heat,
37:42 we would also be addressing two critical,
37:45 critical conventions for which UNEP is one of the
37:49 key custodians and implementers.
37:53 Yeah,
37:53 thank you very much.
37:54 Um.
37:56 Eric,
37:56 I want to turn to you from an infrastructure perspective.
38:00 How's
38:02 heat affecting cities function day to day and maybe how can
38:06 we adapt to it and think more holistically like Marais said?
38:13 I hope uh this uh mic also works,
38:16 um,
38:17 so thank you for that and um.
38:20 Let me maybe
38:21 try to draw a bit of a contrast wearing my banker hat here.
38:26 Um,
38:27 from a World Bank perspective,
38:30 For countries to actually be able to grow,
38:34 be able to invest,
38:36 afford the loans,
38:37 that is a big debate here in Kenya,
38:39 for instance,
38:40 uh,
38:41 we need urban spaces to be
38:44 A growth engine,
38:45 a place that creates jobs,
38:47 well-being,
38:49 uh,
38:49 attracts innovation,
38:52 you know,
38:53 all the good things,
38:54 right?
38:54 When heat
38:56 is a factor,
38:57 the way you can,
38:58 I mean,
38:59 you don't have to go much far from Nairobi,
39:01 I mean,
39:02 go to some of the
39:03 Sahel countries,
39:04 go to uh North Africa or Middle East,
39:07 uh.
39:09 If they weren't throwing massive amount
39:12 of infrastructure solutions at the problem,
39:15 which arguably will be unaffordable for the large mass,
39:19 uh,
39:20 some of these places would be largely unlivable even today,
39:23 right?
39:24 So,
39:25 so you have a situation where
39:27 countries' abilities to actually grow and
39:30 improve their livelihoods are severely affected
39:34 by
39:34 the changing climate and the cost of
39:39 Adapting
39:40 to that,
39:40 right,
39:41 which is rising,
39:42 and I think that
39:43 what this handbook lays out is also ways of avoiding lock-in effects.
39:49 We talk about lock-in effects a lot in the energy space,
39:53 and many of
39:55 my NGO and CSO friends
39:57 talk about it when it comes to,
39:59 you know,
40:00 you know,
40:01 various petroleum-based energy.
40:03 Types,
40:03 but the lock-in effects of cities
40:06 being built
40:07 in the wrong
40:08 way is,
40:09 I would say,
40:10 an equally big problem because
40:12 these are infrastructure and buildings that are meant to be there for 30,
40:16 40,
40:17 50 years,
40:18 skyscrapers that are built as greenhouses,
40:21 etc.
40:22 That are building in massive cost of
40:28 climate mitigation and adaptation
40:31 over time.
40:32 So if we don't bend the arc of this
40:34 lock-in effect of unsustainable
40:38 urban spaces.
40:40 Uh,
40:41 the bill and the impact of growth and
40:44 ability for long-term prosperity of,
40:47 of countries
40:48 in this space,
40:49 uh,
40:49 is,
40:49 is severely limited,
40:50 right?
40:51 So,
40:51 that's why we
40:53 pay a lot of attention,
40:54 uh,
40:55 in addition to it just being
40:58 a great thing for,
41:00 especially for the poor,
41:01 that will be,
41:02 um,
41:04 largely unable to foot the bill of,
41:06 of air conditions and
41:08 Fancy,
41:09 uh,
41:09 uh,
41:10 solutions,
41:11 uh,
41:11 and park spaces that,
41:13 that the middle class and,
41:15 and,
41:15 uh,
41:16 and people that benefit from it here in,
41:19 uh,
41:20 around uh the Gigiri area,
41:22 uh,
41:23 can,
41:24 can access,
41:24 right?
41:25 So,
41:25 so it's as,
41:26 as was said before,
41:27 it's,
41:28 it's becoming largely a class issue,
41:30 an equity issue as well,
41:32 uh,
41:33 and,
41:34 and,
41:34 and increasingly so.
41:36 I'll stop there,
41:36 thank you.
41:39 Thank you very much.
41:40 Um,
41:41 Bernard,
41:42 so what I'm hearing is,
41:44 uh,
41:45 there are two big problems for us to adapt and mitigate,
41:49 which one is,
41:51 it is still an equality issue.
41:53 Not everyone can afford to adapt and mitigate.
41:57 And second also is that,
42:00 um,
42:00 progress or scaling sometimes seems slow.
42:04 Um,
42:05 what would you say for these two kind of,
42:07 um,
42:08 challenges,
42:09 um,
42:10 for our urban heat management,
42:12 um,
42:12 what kind of solutions do we have?
42:16 Or what could unlock faster action?
42:20 Um,
42:21 well,
42:21 thank you very much.
42:22 And,
42:22 uh,
42:23 of course,
42:23 also
42:24 on behalf of,
42:25 uh,
42:25 UN Habitat,
42:27 welcome to you all.
42:28 And of course,
42:29 a big thank you to,
42:30 uh,
42:30 the partners for developing,
42:32 uh,
42:33 this handbook that we're launching today,
42:35 which,
42:36 uh,
42:36 of course,
42:36 is,
42:37 uh,
42:38 really addressing one of the,
42:39 the biggest climate change issues,
42:41 um,
42:42 And we've covered most of this,
42:44 but I think
42:46 the recognition that
42:48 heat
42:49 is
42:50 the biggest climate killer at the moment,
42:53 I think has not
42:54 really
42:56 settled well with everyone and it's not on the agenda.
43:01 Now,
43:02 I think important.
43:04 Um,
43:04 of course,
43:05 uh,
43:05 for us to address adaptation and,
43:07 and mitigation,
43:09 we,
43:09 we look,
43:10 uh,
43:10 from a UN habitat on the,
43:12 the,
43:13 uh,
43:13 heat side,
43:14 of course,
43:15 very much as an adaptation entry point,
43:18 but,
43:18 uh,
43:19 with massive opportunities,
43:21 uh,
43:22 for mitigation,
43:23 uh,
43:23 co-benefits,
43:25 um.
43:26 And,
43:26 and I think it was already very clearly framed that
43:29 we need to look at all of the different scales,
43:33 uh,
43:33 of urban development,
43:35 if that is housing with all of
43:37 the opportunities there that you've already outlined,
43:41 uh,
43:42 Abbas,
43:43 uh,
43:43 from,
43:44 from a UN habitat perspective.
43:46 Our two
43:47 big,
43:48 uh,
43:48 ballpark figures is that 1 billion people live in Informal settlements,
43:53 they are of course really
43:55 at the forefront of urban heat,
43:59 living under
44:00 corrugated iron sheets very often and of course
44:04 do not have the resources for cooling,
44:10 but also an additional
44:13 2 billion people that live in other
44:17 Housing crises,
44:19 and many of those
44:21 include not having the access to energy for heating
44:26 and of course in this context for cooling.
44:29 So,
44:29 um,
44:30 on that level,
44:31 I think there is a lot to be done definitely
44:34 building codes,
44:36 um,
44:36 the policy interventions there that that can help.
44:39 The next level we've talked about the neighborhood,
44:43 then In terms of the policy instruments,
44:46 urban design is critical,
44:49 with many opportunities with again design guidelines
44:54 in
44:55 in many ways actually providing quick wins at
44:59 the neighborhood scale,
45:00 even in terms of retrofitting,
45:02 definitely in the context of new urban developments to look at.
45:09 Cooling of neighborhoods in an integrated
45:13 manner.
45:14 Then of course the city level and I think for us also important,
45:18 yes,
45:19 the heat action plans are critically important
45:23 very often they come with concrete actions.
45:26 They come with fundable solutions,
45:29 but of course also very important in terms of scaling
45:33 to integrate those.
45:34 To comprehensive climate action plans
45:37 and also very important
45:39 to include those into citywide plans and then of course there are regional plans
45:46 that would be the next scale
45:49 and very
45:51 often
45:52 critically important to include those in terms of the building
45:56 of green and blue corridors that feed into cities.
46:04 Thank you.
46:05 Speaking of green and blue corridors,
46:07 um,
46:07 Marais,
46:08 I wanna,
46:09 um,
46:09 ask you because you also work
46:12 or your work links,
46:14 um,
46:15 climate,
46:15 ecosystem and design as well,
46:17 um,
46:18 how can nature-based and,
46:20 uh,
46:20 green infrastructure
46:22 help
46:23 us,
46:23 um,
46:25 deal with this issue?
46:27 Sure.
46:28 Uh,
46:28 thanks so much and uh please stop me because I'm very passionate about this topic.
46:32 So if I go overboard,
46:34 you just say enough now.
46:36 Um,
46:37 I think that the response to your question is really embodied in what we are,
46:42 what we have launched with the COP 30 presidency,
46:45 which is called the beat the Heat
46:47 implementation Drive or MTIao in Portuguese,
46:52 and it's,
46:53 it's really focused around 33 things.
46:56 It's focused around
46:59 We have to know,
47:00 we have to prepare,
47:01 and we have to redesign.
47:03 Um,
47:03 and by knowing this is where,
47:06 um,
47:07 heat mapping comes into play,
47:09 and I really,
47:09 really want to emphasize here
47:11 that it needs to be context specific.
47:15 You know,
47:15 so for example,
47:16 in the city of Dakar,
47:18 they don't,
47:19 uh,
47:19 they don't have announcements of extreme heat waves
47:23 because of the wind.
47:24 Coming from the ocean
47:26 means that the car never meets the threshold that is globally defined
47:30 for a heat wave.
47:31 So everything needs to really be contextualized.
47:34 Uh,
47:35 another example is the city of Glasgow.
47:37 For them,
47:37 it's extreme heat when it hits 26 degrees.
47:40 Uh,
47:40 that is very,
47:41 very different from other places where 26 is probably
47:45 at the bottom of the of the temperature averages,
47:48 so contextualizing,
47:49 I think,
47:50 is absolutely key as one of the is one of the aspects
47:54 and filling data gaps.
47:55 I was recently,
47:57 we,
47:57 we recently had a paper presented to us
48:00 on,
48:01 um,
48:02 I can't remember who mentioned this
48:04 either
48:06 Tark or Abbas on
48:08 on deaths that are provoked by extreme heat.
48:12 And there is a global map
48:14 with a big,
48:15 big void
48:16 in the global south.
48:19 Um,
48:19 in terms of,
48:20 um,
48:21 extreme heat provoked death.
48:23 There is a lack of data,
48:26 maybe also in terms of definitions,
48:29 and these need to drive our actions.
48:32 So,
48:32 I mean,
48:33 we need to be judicious in terms of
48:35 how much are we investing in data generation versus
48:38 how much we are investing in implementation and,
48:40 and so on.
48:41 And that brings me to your question on blue and green infrastructure.
48:45 These are really
48:47 no regret
48:49 actions that can be taken and implemented in city context,
48:54 not only for their passive cooling potential,
48:58 but also for their potential for
49:00 protection of urban infrastructure.
49:02 Take coastal cities,
49:03 for example,
49:04 mangrove restoration in Colombia has reduced exposure of urban infrastructure to
49:11 The
49:12 slow erosion by sea level rise,
49:15 it also provides,
49:17 you know,
49:18 that,
49:18 that,
49:19 that
49:20 I know you've mentioned also that there is a privilege associated with that,
49:24 but for example in Barranquilla,
49:26 which is also a coastal city in
49:28 In Colombia they have started investing in
49:31 green and blue infrastructure in poorer urban settings because it also provides
49:36 a space for social cohesion,
49:39 connection,
49:40 and beyond the,
49:42 beyond the cooling impacts.
49:44 And last,
49:44 maybe
49:45 I really,
49:46 really want to convey this message
49:48 knowledge transfer is not only a north to south
49:53 transfer.
49:55 Singapore has gone really great strides.
49:58 India was mentioned earlier in terms of heat action
50:02 planning and so on.
50:03 There's a lot that can be learned from
50:05 the global South and transferred to the global north
50:08 because going back to UNEP's science,
50:11 you know,
50:11 role,
50:12 we know that with climate impacts we will be what we call climate analogs,
50:18 meaning that Paris will be analogous in the future to Rabat,
50:22 for example.
50:23 So Paris will have to learn from Rabat rather than the other way around,
50:27 and that I really wanted to convey this this message,
50:30 and we have great experiences whether UN Habitat,
50:33 ourselves or the World Bank
50:35 in some of the leapfrogging that is happening in
50:37 the global south and that can be transferred elsewhere.
50:40 Thanks.
50:42 Thank you very much.
50:43 I think you touched upon very interesting points,
50:46 and I would love to
50:47 further discuss on them,
50:49 but I'm very mindful of the time,
50:51 given some of you need to leave a bit earlier.
50:53 If I have to go in,
50:55 if in your agenda something changed,
50:57 I will continue to ask one or two more questions.
51:00 Otherwise,
51:01 I will turn to the audience now for questions.
51:05 OK,
51:06 perfect.
51:06 Then,
51:07 because then I want to,
51:08 yeah,
51:09 sorry,
51:09 yeah,
51:09 you were also,
51:10 sorry.
51:11 I was just thinking of Bernard.
51:13 Um,
51:14 so,
51:15 because then I want to touch upon the last point that you talked about and ask you,
51:20 Bernard.
51:20 Um,
51:21 so in our registration forms,
51:23 we ask people to convey
51:25 themes of questions that they want to talk about here and one of the
51:30 more,
51:30 um,
51:31 one of the themes that emerged was,
51:34 uh,
51:34 indigenous and local knowledge.
51:36 Um,
51:38 And I
51:40 wanna ask from your
51:42 experience also with local realities,
51:45 how can we bring indigenous and local
51:47 knowledge into formal planning and design systems?
51:54 Now,
51:54 this,
51:55 um,
51:55 of course,
51:56 is a,
51:56 is a critically,
51:57 uh,
51:58 important question and the processes behind this,
52:01 um,
52:01 also,
52:02 um,
52:03 very important.
52:03 Maybe,
52:05 um,
52:06 one challenge there is that,
52:08 of course,
52:08 um,
52:09 makes many of the solution very localized.
52:12 Um,
52:13 but the processes are not.
52:15 And,
52:15 and I think it's important,
52:16 uh,
52:17 to think around those.
52:18 And of course,
52:18 there is,
52:19 um,
52:20 a lot of indigenous knowledge around,
52:24 uh,
52:24 architecture in,
52:25 in tropical,
52:26 uh,
52:27 countries in,
52:28 um,
52:29 in,
52:30 in arid countries.
52:32 So
52:33 applying these has become increasingly important.
52:36 I think there are different pathways.
52:38 Obviously integrating these
52:41 into formal education is one way,
52:43 but we've been talking about the heat action plans,
52:47 and I think it's this
52:49 engagement of stakeholders.
52:51 It's not
52:52 only engaging
52:55 on
52:56 The problems that different stakeholders bring to the table,
52:59 but it's also about the different solutions and
53:03 to break out of compartmentalizing,
53:06 saying,
53:06 OK,
53:07 indigenous knowledge.
53:08 Only works from maybe a transfer from rural into informal settlements,
53:14 and that is just not
53:16 not the case.
53:17 I mean we've been hearing about all of those
53:19 glass and steel construction and there are of course
53:24 many examples for applying indigenous knowledge into architecture,
53:31 into urban design,
53:32 and also in terms of planning,
53:34 in terms of
53:37 Planning and,
53:38 and working with water and,
53:40 um,
53:40 wind corridors and so on.
53:41 So I think that is,
53:43 um,
53:44 a lot that needs to feed into these,
53:46 um,
53:47 planning processes in the development of the heat action plans.
53:52 Thank you.
53:53 Um,
53:54 I wanna turn to you lastly,
53:56 Eric,
53:56 but
53:57 I'm gonna ask
53:59 um if you could
54:00 make it short.
54:03 I do,
54:04 I do.
54:04 That's why
54:05 I wanna ask and especially about something that
54:07 uh I'm assuming you're very passionate about,
54:10 that's why I'm just warning you.
54:12 Um,
54:12 we have A few minutes left.
54:14 Um,
54:15 and after that,
54:15 we would like to take a picture with the panel before
54:18 you have to leave and,
54:19 um,
54:19 then we'll take questions.
54:21 But Eric,
54:22 from a finance and investment point of view,
54:25 how can institutions like the World Bank
54:27 help bridge that gap between local projects,
54:31 um,
54:32 to scalable impact?
54:34 I know you touched on it,
54:35 um,
54:36 in our first question,
54:37 but maybe you can expand a bit more.
54:43 Sure,
54:43 I,
54:44 I think,
54:44 uh,
54:45 I mean the World Bank,
54:46 uh,
54:47 plays a number of important roles.
54:50 Uh,
54:50 I mean,
54:51 first,
54:51 I think,
54:52 uh,
54:52 we're here together in a partnership where we,
54:56 we bring together
54:58 a number of,
54:59 of sources of knowledge and,
55:00 and reach
55:02 that is very important in addressing these kind of complex issues,
55:05 right?
55:06 And,
55:07 um,
55:09 I think the,
55:10 the bank as well being involved globally
55:13 with investment projects across all the continents,
55:17 uh,
55:17 are able also to translate some of the projects that has actually worked well.
55:23 Um,
55:24 and bring that knowledge to Africa or,
55:27 or to the client countries that are dealing with here.
55:29 So I think the handbook in a way is
55:32 an expression of that,
55:33 the best practice aspects,
55:36 the,
55:36 the partnerships
55:38 and the knowledge,
55:39 uh,
55:39 that we're trying to distill and convey,
55:43 uh,
55:43 but then I think we are also obviously
55:46 in our work with
55:49 client government and in terms of finance,
55:51 we have.
55:52 You know,
55:53 uh,
55:53 I think in an important role also in steering some of the investments,
55:58 applying that knowledge and say,
55:59 hey,
56:00 you know,
56:01 uh,
56:01 if you want to take a loan of,
56:04 you know,
56:04 a billion dollars for city beautification,
56:08 um,
56:08 and you want to pay that back eventually.
56:11 Uh,
56:11 here are some of the principles you need to
56:14 adapt to actually have the outcomes you're looking for,
56:17 and this is what,
56:18 you know,
56:19 Bogota used or this is what Cape Town has used to actually achieve that.
56:23 So,
56:24 you know,
56:24 I,
56:25 I think that uh
56:26 we,
56:26 we provide the means,
56:28 but we also provide hopefully the knowledge to have the outcomes
56:33 that that that clients want from those means,
56:36 right?
56:37 So that's,
56:37 that's kind of an important uh measure,
56:39 but let me just finish,
56:41 uh,
56:42 um,
56:43 with some of the previous speakers talked about,
56:46 uh,
56:46 you know,
56:47 experience and some of that experience is also ancient,
56:50 right?
56:50 I,
56:50 I,
56:51 it just came to mind,
56:52 I,
56:52 I did a visit to Tuzur in Tunisia
56:55 some years back,
56:56 uh,
56:56 to an old medina that is more than 500 years old,
56:59 and I remember walking into this tunnel that was
57:03 perfect.
57:03 Perfectly located to harness
57:05 a wind effect
57:07 uh in there and I had just been in,
57:09 in,
57:10 in Doha where instead they were running
57:14 outside air conditioners and spray for the same
57:17 purpose of people walking between two buildings,
57:19 right?
57:19 So again,
57:20 one
57:21 One
57:22 solution
57:23 is lasting half a millennia
57:26 and one solu and it's costing
57:29 nothing after it's built and one solution is costing immensely,
57:33 again serving the same purpose.
57:35 So I think that it,
57:36 it shows the,
57:37 the,
57:37 I would say,
57:38 if you want to look at it from a positive angle,
57:41 the upside
57:42 of adhering and adapting both ancient and
57:47 modern wisdom
57:48 in terms of this,
57:49 this space,
57:50 right?
57:50 Thanks.
57:52 And I can stay on my meeting has been pushed back,
57:55 so
57:56 at least.
58:02 I would still suggest to turn to the audience,
58:04 then maybe we can all together
58:06 um discuss further.
58:08 So I wanna first
58:11 turn to some of the questions that have been raised in the chat.
58:16 Um
58:18 So one person is asking,
58:20 are there frameworks in the handbook that
58:22 emphasize quantitative assessment of heat mitigation performance,
58:27 particularly in terms of measurable cooling intensity
58:31 or heat reduction per unit area.
58:35 I think that's
58:37 Yes,
58:37 I'm,
58:38 I'm happy to involve them.
58:41 Well,
58:42 Eric,
58:42 you have a full copy.
58:43 You can just read it.
58:47 Um,
58:48 if you'd like,
58:49 I,
58:49 I can also read out the second question,
58:51 and then we can,
58:53 yes.
58:54 Um,
58:55 so the second question is,
58:57 how does the handbook address the
58:59 techno-economic evaluation of nature-based solutions inter
59:03 interventions.
59:04 For instance,
59:05 um,
59:06 they are saying comparing life cycle costs
59:09 and long-term benefits with conventional gray solutions.
59:16 I think for now we can take these two and we'll uh collect more questions.
59:20 Um,
59:20 who wants to take the first question?
59:24 I thank you.
59:27 So
59:27 these are super specific questions and clearly like our engineering,
59:31 uh,
59:32 friends have,
59:33 um,
59:34 so,
59:35 uh,
59:35 I,
59:36 I'll turn to TA for the specific details,
59:37 but I do want to say that
59:39 I don't think we went to that level of gra
59:41 granularity in the handbook and that was never the intent.
59:44 Uh,
59:45 the handbook is meant to be a living document
59:47 and the idea is that,
59:48 you know,
59:48 you take it and then,
59:49 you know,
59:49 we'll build on it.
59:51 So,
59:51 the kind of,
59:51 you know,
59:51 for example,
59:52 life cycle costing of Nature Based Solutions,
59:55 it's a great question.
59:56 I don't think it was within the scope of the handbook,
59:59 but maybe TRQ can correct me.
1:00:02 So I,
1:00:03 I,
1:00:04 whoever,
1:00:04 um,
1:00:04 ask those questions,
1:00:05 please do reach out afterwards because we had a lot of discussions which,
1:00:08 which relate to that as well.
1:00:10 Um,
1:00:10 I,
1:00:11 so what I said is correct.
1:00:12 There's no detailed response to,
1:00:14 to either of those questions in the handbook.
1:00:16 I think on what we try to do with the solutions,
1:00:18 for example,
1:00:19 is we,
1:00:20 we wanted to see how much does it cost
1:00:22 and what is the effect to be able to really compare them.
1:00:26 And trying to do that across different continents across different times.
1:00:30 Something was done 15 years ago,
1:00:32 something was done
1:00:33 this year
1:00:35 already that is very difficult.
1:00:36 So comparing
1:00:37 these
1:00:38 diversity of solutions,
1:00:39 some of them policy,
1:00:40 national,
1:00:41 some of them very local community driven,
1:00:43 is more or less impossible,
1:00:45 but still we try to do it.
1:00:46 So we have a couple of,
1:00:48 um,
1:00:48 say little icons in the solution database which tries to rank,
1:00:52 OK,
1:00:53 what's
1:00:54 What's the most expensive,
1:00:55 what's the cheapest one,
1:00:56 and what's a good starting point.
1:00:57 And then also for each of the sections,
1:00:59 there's a,
1:01:00 there's a little part like where,
1:01:01 if you want to start,
1:01:03 where should you start,
1:01:04 and what are the local conditions you need to take into consideration.
1:01:07 So I don't think there's a perfect comparability,
1:01:09 um,
1:01:10 between any of the solutions,
1:01:11 but we try to give a couple of indications and we are very happy to involve,
1:01:15 uh,
1:01:16 whoever has been asking those questions on.
1:01:18 On a more detailed elaboration from
1:01:20 a technical perspective because there are approaches
1:01:22 which are trying to do that there.
1:01:24 Let's say if you talk about,
1:01:26 if you talk about,
1:01:26 um,
1:01:28 In
1:01:28 like,
1:01:29 it depends.
1:01:29 For public space it's very difficult,
1:01:31 but for internal
1:01:33 inside the building there are many,
1:01:34 many projects where let's say.
1:01:36 Putting white
1:01:37 color on the roof,
1:01:38 does it work?
1:01:39 Up to what degree?
1:01:40 In what areas does it work?
1:01:41 In what areas in France,
1:01:43 for example,
1:01:43 there's an interesting study
1:01:45 that
1:01:46 in the southern part of France it's effective.
1:01:48 In the northern side of France you are in the end having
1:01:50 more heating costs in winter than you have cooling savings in summer,
1:01:55 assuming that you do both cool and heat.
1:01:57 So there are good technical approaches for internal,
1:02:00 um,
1:02:01 let's say internal comfort outside,
1:02:03 I don't think it's there yet,
1:02:04 but also there we have a couple of points,
1:02:06 I think,
1:02:06 on
1:02:07 directions where more work is needed.
1:02:10 On the cost it's a bit the same
1:02:12 same response,
1:02:13 so there are
1:02:15 Somewhere in certain places comparable costs,
1:02:18 but we say more or less,
1:02:19 OK,
1:02:20 these are the
1:02:21 entry points.
1:02:22 This is something affordable.
1:02:23 This is something every city can do.
1:02:25 And then from there onwards,
1:02:26 you can go further and further and further.
1:02:27 And the more you do,
1:02:28 the more expensive it becomes.
1:02:30 And mostly the more infrastructure
1:02:31 heavy it becomes,
1:02:32 the more expensive it becomes.
1:02:33 But it's,
1:02:34 it's not,
1:02:35 and I think this is also a key message of the handbook.
1:02:38 It doesn't need to be expensive to get started.
1:02:41 You can do a lot of things very easily with
1:02:44 existing data,
1:02:44 with existing personal
1:02:46 already to have a very good basis,
1:02:47 and from there then you can work forward.
1:02:50 Sorry,
1:02:50 I just want
1:02:51 One
1:02:52 point I wanted to add on this,
1:02:53 which is that,
1:02:54 uh,
1:02:55 one of the things that we really emphasize in the handbook
1:02:57 is that,
1:02:58 you know,
1:02:58 as urban and resilience professionals,
1:03:00 we often tend to preach to the choir.
1:03:03 Uh,
1:03:03 so we think about,
1:03:04 you know,
1:03:04 the Urban Development Ministry,
1:03:06 for example,
1:03:07 but we,
1:03:07 you really need to make a case to the Ministry of Finance
1:03:10 and that we often forget.
1:03:11 and the Ministry of Finance,
1:03:12 remember,
1:03:13 has 10,000 competing priorities.
1:03:15 So,
1:03:15 when you go to the minister,
1:03:17 you have to show
1:03:18 at,
1:03:19 when you're spending a dollar at the margin,
1:03:21 what gives you the most bang for your buck.
1:03:23 So,
1:03:23 we need those kind of tools
1:03:25 to be able to make that case.
1:03:27 So,
1:03:27 really the intent of the handbook was on that front.
1:03:30 Sorry,
1:03:30 Eric,
1:03:30 you wanted to.
1:03:31 No,
1:03:32 I just wanted to say that generally I think handbook is a,
1:03:36 is a wide term,
1:03:37 right,
1:03:37 and handbook for whom.
1:03:39 Um,
1:03:39 I think when we produce these things at the bank,
1:03:43 uh,
1:03:43 we often,
1:03:44 the,
1:03:44 the intended audience is,
1:03:46 is policymakers,
1:03:48 is,
1:03:48 is government,
1:03:49 as you,
1:03:50 you mentioned Ministry of Finance,
1:03:51 the,
1:03:52 the decision-makers.
1:03:53 So,
1:03:53 in that way,
1:03:54 it's more targeted for
1:03:57 the right questions to be asked rather than providing
1:04:01 Engineering handbooks to calculate the answers,
1:04:04 right?
1:04:05 That's a second step,
1:04:06 and I think that's obviously very important,
1:04:09 but if you'd never get the ask to actually do the calculation,
1:04:13 you know,
1:04:13 it's not gonna get done.
1:04:14 So we first need to convert the people making that question or that demand,
1:04:19 uh,
1:04:20 to head in the right direction.
1:04:21 I think that's what the handbook is for.
1:04:25 Thank you.
1:04:26 I think Maria,
1:04:26 you also wanted to,
1:04:27 yes,
1:04:28 just a very quick point at a global level in our Global Cooling Watch report of 2023,
1:04:34 we had calculated the cost of not including nature-based solutions
1:04:38 and passive cooling and efficiency and the
1:04:43 cost,
1:04:43 um,
1:04:44 the cumulative economic savings for both end users and
1:04:47 the power sector could easily reach 22 billion trillion.
1:04:51 At a global scale now,
1:04:53 as you've mentioned,
1:04:54 everything needs to be contextualized and brought back to the
1:04:57 local level.
1:04:58 I'm not allowed by my team to mention the figures of the 2025 cooling watch,
1:05:03 but it will be launched on November 11th,
1:05:06 and that's one of the things that we are looking into.
1:05:10 We are including breakdown,
1:05:12 breakdown cost numbers of different passive options,
1:05:15 so I think that responds to the technoeconomic evaluation.
1:05:19 Of nature based solutions and also resonating,
1:05:22 we do need a hierarchy of responses and solutions that will be
1:05:26 really responsive to local context and to what the
1:05:30 governments or city governments are trying to achieve.
1:05:33 And lastly.
1:05:34 AI is smarter than all of us
1:05:37 because it actually looks at long term versus short term returns,
1:05:42 and Nature Based Solutions and passive cooling always come up on top of the
1:05:46 solutions when you ask AI for what is the best response to extreme heat.
1:05:56 And then
1:05:58 No,
1:05:58 uh,
1:05:59 I,
1:05:59 I don't want to ask to revolve around the same question for too long,
1:06:02 but,
1:06:02 um,
1:06:03 two important things because as it was the advertisement time for other reports,
1:06:06 there's the banking on cities report from the World Bank.
1:06:09 Which makes a very good point that it's not,
1:06:12 it's not additional investments.
1:06:14 It's stuff which has to be done anyway.
1:06:15 And mostly in the infrastructure sector,
1:06:17 there will be billions and billions and billions invested
1:06:20 in infrastructure over the next couple of decades.
1:06:22 If we consider that
1:06:24 from the beginning that it be nature-based Solutions or just
1:06:26 choosing the right materials or putting it in the codes,
1:06:29 then it's not an additional cost,
1:06:31 which is like,
1:06:31 OK,
1:06:31 by the way,
1:06:32 we need to do heat resilience,
1:06:33 but it's integrated
1:06:35 and the,
1:06:36 the additional cost is minimal or in some cases not even there.
1:06:39 And yeah,
1:06:40 maybe over to you.
1:06:42 So I just wanted to um just build on Mia's point
1:06:44 about Nature Based Solutions and this green and gray infrastructure,
1:06:47 getting the balance right.
1:06:48 This is something that we've all been pressing on,
1:06:51 but it just doesn't happen on the ground,
1:06:52 right?
1:06:53 And in any public policy
1:06:55 paradox or puzzle where you see something that should be happening,
1:06:59 but isn't happening,
1:07:01 The solution is often not technical,
1:07:03 it's a political problem
1:07:05 and that often,
1:07:06 you know,
1:07:06 as technocrats,
1:07:07 you know,
1:07:07 we're all like nerdy people who love,
1:07:09 you know,
1:07:09 numbers,
1:07:11 but the fact is that it often means that there's,
1:07:14 there are a powerful vested interests
1:07:16 behind
1:07:17 the status quo.
1:07:18 And my favorite solution,
1:07:19 uh,
1:07:19 my favorite example of that is
1:07:21 in India,
1:07:23 the floor area ratio,
1:07:24 the density to which you can build
1:07:26 is 1.2.
1:07:27 which is absolutely insane.
1:07:29 It's an insane policy,
1:07:30 you know,
1:07:30 in Singapore,
1:07:31 it's 30,
1:07:32 right?
1:07:33 How high you can build.
1:07:34 In Mumbai,
1:07:35 it's 1.2.
1:07:37 Yes.
1:07:38 Now it's not that India lacks good urban planners,
1:07:41 right,
1:07:42 who know that this is crazy.
1:07:44 But the fact is that there are very,
1:07:46 very powerful real estate interests who want to keep it that way.
1:07:49 So,
1:07:50 you know,
1:07:51 these handbooks,
1:07:51 like Eric said,
1:07:53 these handbooks are the beginning of a conversation,
1:07:55 uh,
1:07:56 but we have to really dig deeper on the sort of the political economy.
1:08:02 I know you have many more questions and,
1:08:05 uh,
1:08:05 but,
1:08:05 but just maybe to,
1:08:07 to add,
1:08:07 we have actually not spoken all that much about the
1:08:10 urban heat island effect as as one of the big,
1:08:13 um,
1:08:14 urban
1:08:15 heat issues,
1:08:15 right?
1:08:16 And of course,
1:08:17 um,
1:08:17 in cities where you have regularly 10 degrees.
1:08:21 Hotter temperatures than in the surrounding areas,
1:08:25 um,
1:08:26 probably the cost-benefit analysis
1:08:29 is,
1:08:29 is very straightforward in terms of finding ways of,
1:08:33 um,
1:08:34 yeah,
1:08:34 cooling corridors or just um opening those up.
1:08:37 There are a few examples
1:08:40 where it's hotter,
1:08:41 um,
1:08:42 in the periphery,
1:08:43 right,
1:08:43 than in the cities,
1:08:44 not often.
1:08:46 But obviously,
1:08:47 you don't want to,
1:08:48 uh,
1:08:48 channel the,
1:08:49 the hot air into the city.
1:08:51 So I think,
1:08:52 um,
1:08:52 a little bit of data really goes,
1:08:55 um,
1:08:55 a very long way.
1:08:56 Um,
1:08:57 and,
1:08:57 and I think you can only,
1:08:59 um,
1:09:00 re-emphasize that in particular,
1:09:03 in,
1:09:04 uh,
1:09:04 the heating agenda,
1:09:05 there are so many solutions that do not cost additionally.
1:09:09 It's just a little bit of better planning.
1:09:11 Um,
1:09:12 and so some of those,
1:09:14 um,
1:09:15 Questions can really be addressed in a,
1:09:17 in a fairly simple,
1:09:19 straightforward,
1:09:20 uh,
1:09:21 local planning process.
1:09:22 But then,
1:09:23 um,
1:09:23 maybe just to also
1:09:25 say one word on,
1:09:26 on the global,
1:09:27 um,
1:09:28 processes.
1:09:29 Of course,
1:09:30 um,
1:09:30 you've spoken about the NDC's
1:09:33 Urban heat is increasingly,
1:09:36 uh,
1:09:36 included,
1:09:37 uh,
1:09:37 in NDCs,
1:09:38 not enough,
1:09:39 uh,
1:09:39 something,
1:09:40 uh,
1:09:40 that,
1:09:41 that we are certainly,
1:09:42 uh,
1:09:42 as UN Habitat,
1:09:43 very keen on bringing in.
1:09:45 And then another global dimension,
1:09:47 of course,
1:09:47 is the IPCC,
1:09:49 uh,
1:09:49 special report on climate change in cities.
1:09:52 I know,
1:09:52 um,
1:09:53 urban heat is something that,
1:09:55 um,
1:09:56 The,
1:09:57 the,
1:09:57 the member states,
1:09:58 um,
1:09:59 of the IPCC have very much requested,
1:10:02 uh,
1:10:02 to be addressed in there.
1:10:03 And
1:10:05 UN Habitat publications
1:10:07 are great.
1:10:08 World Bank publications are read by more people
1:10:10 and maybe if that means they're greater,
1:10:12 um,
1:10:13 good.
1:10:14 But
1:10:15 IPCC reports tend to be downloaded 2 million times on the first day.
1:10:20 I think for us to also feed into those processes,
1:10:24 get the knowledge that we have around the table,
1:10:27 then
1:10:29 really amplified through such processes
1:10:33 and publications is critically important.
1:10:36 Yes,
1:10:37 spread the word,
1:10:38 so to say.
1:10:39 Um,
1:10:39 I want to continue with the questions,
1:10:41 but,
1:10:41 um,
1:10:42 some of our panel members need to leave.
1:10:44 So I would like to invite you all
1:10:47 in front of our three beautiful partner
1:10:50 partnered,
1:10:51 um,
1:10:51 banners and take a quick
1:10:53 photo.
1:10:54 Um,
1:10:56 for those who can stay,
1:10:57 we would love to continue to talk about all those aspects.
1:11:00 Um,
1:11:01 also the things that you touched on,
1:11:02 Bernard.
1:11:03 Um,
1:11:04 are also covered in the handbook.
1:11:06 So would love to talk more.
1:11:08 Um,
1:11:09 but for those who have to leave,
1:11:11 let's
1:11:12 move to the next section.
1:11:14 And,
1:11:15 uh,
1:11:15 Ragga,
1:11:16 who is our head person in UN Habitat and Serena here.
1:11:20 So
1:11:21 as
1:11:22 an organization,
1:11:23 we are not evading the questions.
1:11:34 The snacks and
1:11:37 Yeah,
1:11:38 sure.
1:11:38 I mean,
1:11:38 um,
1:11:39 for the online audience,
1:11:41 maybe you can also take a quick break,
1:11:43 get your coffee.
1:11:44 We will continue online with the questions
1:11:47 and then move to the World Cafe,
1:11:49 which will be offline,
1:11:50 but you can
1:11:51 expect 10 more minutes of questions and um we'll come back in,
1:11:56 let's say 5 minutes.
1:11:58 Or is that too
1:11:59 ambitious?
1:12:00 Let's say 1010 minutes.
1:12:41 Sorry,
1:12:42 everyone.
1:12:42 I,
1:12:43 uh,
1:12:43 just,
1:12:44 it has been brought to my attention that we've been here very long and it's a bit hot,
1:12:47 so we can take a longer break.
1:12:50 It's urban heat,
1:12:51 um,
1:12:51 even within the greenery,
1:12:53 um,
1:12:54 we'll see each other in 15 minutes,
1:12:57 so.
1:13:00 I don't know if that's so green,
1:13:01 but at
1:13:03 2:30 Nairobi time.
1:14:25 Oh,
1:31:25 Hi,
1:31:25 everyone.
1:31:26 Can you please slowly take your seats?
1:31:29 I mean,
1:31:30 this part is more informal anyways.
1:31:35 I see the exchange has already started.
1:31:42 Everyone.
1:31:43 So this part is anyways a bit more informal.
1:31:46 So please
1:31:48 um
1:31:49 save the conversations that you're having right now and we will
1:31:53 um continue where we stopped after the questions,
1:31:57 but we do have
1:31:59 some more questions
1:32:01 from the online audience.
1:32:02 Before we go on to them though,
1:32:04 I want to turn to the um
1:32:07 audience here and ask
1:32:09 if anyone has
1:32:11 some
1:32:12 Thoughts to share,
1:32:14 questions.
1:32:15 Um,
1:32:16 uh,
1:32:16 keep in mind,
1:32:17 please though,
1:32:18 we will have the,
1:32:19 um,
1:32:20 World Cafe,
1:32:21 so we will have
1:32:22 also much opportunity to exchange.
1:32:34 So for the online audience here everyone is still chewing.
1:32:38 Um,
1:32:39 that's why I am gonna continue with the online audience
1:32:42 and you can
1:32:44 think of um
1:32:45 if anything
1:32:47 is um
1:32:49 if you want to ask anything.
1:32:51 So,
1:32:52 in the chat,
1:32:53 someone asked,
1:32:54 wish to understand the upcoming programs to help
1:32:57 with climate adaptation at the asset level,
1:33:00 at least to cover critical assets to keep the lights on.
1:33:05 Um,
1:33:07 who wants to take that question?
1:33:10 Which,
1:33:11 so the person wants to understand the upcoming programs to
1:33:14 help with the climate adaptation at the asset level,
1:33:17 at least to cover critical assets to keep the lights on.
1:33:25 Um,
1:33:26 so I think that would have been a great question for,
1:33:28 for Eric because it applies to the whole infrastructure sector more or less.
1:33:34 I'm not sure if I can directly respond to the question,
1:33:37 but I think what we are at least trying to do in the World Bank
1:33:41 context is that when we do projects,
1:33:45 We try to build in climate resilience from the beginning.
1:33:47 So if there's a new bridge,
1:33:48 if there's a new
1:33:50 road,
1:33:50 if there's a new whatever type of infrastructure,
1:33:52 the housing example earlier is a bit more complex example,
1:33:55 but still,
1:33:56 for anything,
1:33:56 what is newly built and which is financed in one way or the other,
1:33:59 um,
1:34:00 through us,
1:34:01 there we have the leverage and we don't do it for every project yet,
1:34:03 but it's something which I think we try to get to
1:34:06 and hope to get to in the next couple of years.
1:34:09 Uh,
1:34:09 we have that for the mitigation.
1:34:10 So for example,
1:34:11 we have mechanisms,
1:34:12 um,
1:34:12 safeguards internally where we make sure that
1:34:16 whatever we do does not have a negative impact on CO2 emissions,
1:34:19 and if so,
1:34:20 then it's offset by something.
1:34:23 For the adaptation,
1:34:24 we don't have that in the same degree.
1:34:25 So it's,
1:34:26 I think there's a lot of potential to really
1:34:28 make sure that it's 100% mainstreamed in anything,
1:34:30 what's happening.
1:34:31 It's much,
1:34:32 much more difficult in my opinion on
1:34:35 how to do it with existing assets.
1:34:37 And also now we talk about,
1:34:38 let's say,
1:34:39 very urban structures,
1:34:40 but if you talk about energy,
1:34:41 um,
1:34:43 Energy infrastructure or water infrastructure,
1:34:46 the water access,
1:34:47 like there's a whole different range of challenges which are
1:34:50 behind which goes a bit to your initial point on
1:34:52 heat not being only an urban issue but also being a larger issue on drought,
1:34:56 on ecosystem deterioration and so on.
1:34:59 So I don't think we have a full answer to that.
1:35:02 I think what we
1:35:03 try to do at this stage,
1:35:04 and maybe others can compliment a bit on the
1:35:07 On
1:35:08 other sectors in the World Bank,
1:35:10 but what we try to do is really make sure that anything going forward
1:35:13 has these
1:35:14 built in safeguards to make sure that the infrastructure lasts as long as it can.
1:35:19 But doing or let's say retrofitting it for
1:35:22 the whole built environment of the world is
1:35:25 rather a big task,
1:35:26 to put it
1:35:27 carefully.
1:35:28 So,
1:35:29 just to compliment,
1:35:29 and I think,
1:35:30 uh,
1:35:30 this discussion needs to go beyond uh
1:35:33 heat
1:35:34 because when you talk about infrastructure resilience,
1:35:37 there are a couple of things that need to be kept in mind.
1:35:39 One is that we need to rethink our public investment frameworks.
1:35:42 uh,
1:35:43 uh,
1:35:43 for example,
1:35:44 Ministry of Finance,
1:35:45 the way they do cost-benefit analysis,
1:35:47 you need to switch to,
1:35:48 for example,
1:35:49 life cycle costing.
1:35:50 Uh,
1:35:51 so,
1:35:51 let's say you're building a road,
1:35:52 and if you don't
1:35:53 build it to better standards against climate risks,
1:35:56 you're going to be rebuilding it every few years.
1:35:58 Whereas if you take a life cycle cost,
1:36:00 then it's much
1:36:01 more economical to
1:36:03 uh build in those risks and build it to a higher standard,
1:36:06 which may cost a little bit more upfront,
1:36:08 uh,
1:36:09 initially,
1:36:09 but you're saving,
1:36:11 uh,
1:36:11 costs over the life cycle of the asset.
1:36:14 Uh,
1:36:14 that's number one.
1:36:15 But the other thing is that
1:36:17 I think you need to move away from an engineering
1:36:20 kind of mindset to a more probabilistic and risk
1:36:23 uh mindset.
1:36:25 So I'll give you an example again.
1:36:26 This is not directly related to heat,
1:36:29 but take,
1:36:29 say you're building a hydropower dam.
1:36:32 Um,
1:36:33 the past is no longer a good predictor of the future.
1:36:36 Uh,
1:36:36 you know,
1:36:36 there's,
1:36:37 there was a famous paper
1:36:38 a few years ago
1:36:40 called Stationarity Is Dead,
1:36:42 uh,
1:36:42 which meant that,
1:36:43 uh,
1:36:44 stationarity in the context of statistics
1:36:46 means that you're assuming your variance
1:36:47 is constant,
1:36:48 and that's no longer the case because of climate change.
1:36:51 So,
1:36:51 you cannot rely on past data to design your,
1:36:54 the infrastructure
1:36:55 of,
1:36:56 uh,
1:36:56 of tomorrow.
1:36:57 And remember,
1:36:59 the last time the carbon was this high in the atmosphere,
1:37:02 dinosaurs were roaming the planet.
1:37:04 We've never faced
1:37:05 this level of carbon intensity
1:37:07 in human history.
1:37:09 Uh
1:37:10 And,
1:37:11 uh,
1:37:11 I think Neil deGrasse Tyson
1:37:13 has this great quote that
1:37:14 science doesn't care about your opinion,
1:37:16 um,
1:37:17 you know,
1:37:17 so
1:37:19 you can,
1:37:19 you know,
1:37:19 decide that climate change is a hoax or whatever.
1:37:22 It doesn't care.
1:37:24 You are seeing the results on the ground today.
1:37:26 So
1:37:27 maybe this was a long-winded answer to
1:37:30 uh the.
1:37:30 No,
1:37:31 I think it's,
1:37:31 it's a
1:37:32 chilling
1:37:33 fact,
1:37:34 but it is a fact.
1:37:35 um,
1:37:36 and it reminds me of,
1:37:37 I think what Mire was saying about that we need to collect data.
1:37:42 Um,
1:37:42 do you have any insights on that?
1:37:44 How can we provide the information with which
1:37:48 we or practitioners and government can act?
1:37:52 Apart,
1:37:53 I mean,
1:37:53 the handbook is a good example,
1:37:55 but how can we collect more data?
1:38:00 I don't think data is the problem.
1:38:02 There's plenty of data.
1:38:04 Again,
1:38:05 there's a great Keynes quote,
1:38:06 which is that the,
1:38:07 the thing policymakers
1:38:10 disliked the most.
1:38:12 is more facts and data because it makes their decision making more complicated.
1:38:17 Um,
1:38:17 I don't think there's any lack of data,
1:38:19 like,
1:38:19 it's staring at us in the face.
1:38:22 Um
1:38:23 That's not the problem.
1:38:25 Uh,
1:38:26 the problem is what I was alluding to earlier is the politics and,
1:38:29 you know,
1:38:30 um,
1:38:31 When the people start demanding it,
1:38:33 you know,
1:38:33 the system will respond.
1:38:36 But I do think that putting more data into the public domain is a good thing
1:38:40 in general.
1:38:41 So,
1:38:41 as,
1:38:41 as multilateral institutions,
1:38:43 all of us,
1:38:44 whether it's UN Habitat,
1:38:45 UNF or World Bank or any other,
1:38:48 We should insist in our contracts.
1:38:50 If we are collecting data,
1:38:51 it should be open-source,
1:38:53 uh,
1:38:53 open format,
1:38:55 uh,
1:38:55 so that anybody can,
1:38:56 uh,
1:38:56 access it,
1:38:57 anybody can build apps off of it.
1:39:00 Uh,
1:39:00 so that's something that we at least are building into our
1:39:03 procurement.
1:39:06 And maybe also an accessible language.
1:39:08 I think that's also a barrier,
1:39:09 a lot of times also class barrier,
1:39:11 but Serene,
1:39:13 yeah,
1:39:13 I just wanted to add two things.
1:39:14 One that Abbas just mentioned on,
1:39:16 um,
1:39:17 the resilience of assets and infrastructure.
1:39:20 There's actually a really lovely,
1:39:22 um,
1:39:23 guidebook,
1:39:24 if you want.
1:39:24 So also from the World Bank
1:39:26 that,
1:39:26 uh,
1:39:26 I really enjoyed reading because,
1:39:28 um,
1:39:29 it's,
1:39:29 it's about taking different,
1:39:31 um,
1:39:31 international development agencies such as Ill Bank and
1:39:34 Um,
1:39:35 other agencies and actually looking into their asset management flows,
1:39:40 into the procurement flows,
1:39:41 into,
1:39:42 um,
1:39:42 the project flows and so on,
1:39:44 and the entire project life cycle
1:39:46 and understanding
1:39:47 climate and disaster risks
1:39:49 as an integrated manner in there,
1:39:51 which then in return
1:39:53 also informs
1:39:55 any state
1:39:56 company.
1:39:56 That works on development and how to integrate such procurement flows
1:40:01 in a climate risk sensitive way into their asset management.
1:40:06 So I really like that publication from the World Bank as well,
1:40:10 which they have tested with Il Bank,
1:40:11 the Turkish Development Bank,
1:40:13 first,
1:40:13 and then basically
1:40:14 had a spin off of that in other
1:40:17 regions as well.
1:40:18 And the second thing I think on data
1:40:22 we might have a vast amount of data,
1:40:24 but I think also what is so much missing and
1:40:27 where we have to pull in together
1:40:29 is the standardization of data,
1:40:31 understanding the methodology behind it,
1:40:33 understanding that data needs to be always visualized.
1:40:36 We can't tell a story just by facts and not even facts and figures,
1:40:40 sorry,
1:40:40 actually a point before,
1:40:42 you can't tell the story just by The figures and the numbers and the crunch and
1:40:47 the core data,
1:40:48 but you would have to need to take
1:40:49 that into an analysis and you have to take it into an assessment
1:40:53 and then you have to also visualize it to make it in a
1:40:57 computable language for all sorts of decision
1:41:00 making and I don't mean only ministers.
1:41:02 And Ministry of Finance,
1:41:03 but also our local governments,
1:41:06 our communities on the ground to understand where vulnerabilities occur,
1:41:09 where there are hot spots of vulnerabilities,
1:41:11 what is it that affects and in a tripling effect to our infrastructure,
1:41:15 and so on.
1:41:16 And,
1:41:17 um,
1:41:17 lastly,
1:41:17 there's
1:41:18 another excellent World Bank.
1:41:20 I,
1:41:20 I'm working for you inhabitat,
1:41:21 but I really
1:41:22 like those
1:41:23 reports.
1:41:24 Um,
1:41:24 it's called Lifeline.
1:41:25 And the World Bank report on Lifeline,
1:41:27 um,
1:41:28 it looks exactly at that cost of what you reduce,
1:41:32 um,
1:41:32 if you're tackling climate and disaster risks in a more holistic and systemic way.
1:41:36 And they call it the triple,
1:41:38 triple dividend,
1:41:40 um,
1:41:40 of,
1:41:41 uh,
1:41:42 of that climate resilience investment.
1:41:44 And the first dividend is that you are,
1:41:46 uh,
1:41:48 making a certain asset on an infrastructure climate resilient.
1:41:51 The second dividend is that because you are reducing the background risk of
1:41:56 that
1:41:57 constant thinking of like,
1:41:58 how do I afford in the next cyclone or the next damage that will come,
1:42:03 that I can,
1:42:04 repair my asset that I'm living in or my house that I'm living in.
1:42:08 So that constant background risk you are reducing
1:42:10 and what you're creating with that on the
1:42:12 third dividend is you are much more empowered
1:42:15 to have savings that are invested into SME,
1:42:19 into economic spur,
1:42:21 or you even invest into your education system
1:42:25 because you're redirecting savings that you have not
1:42:27 into rebuilding a climate friendly housing or infrastructure,
1:42:31 but you're actually investing into long term.
1:42:34 Educational parts or you're investing into livelihood opportunities and you're
1:42:38 investing them into going into scale in those livelihood opportunities.
1:42:42 So
1:42:43 these three reports from the World Bank,
1:42:44 I should quote on Habitat reports,
1:42:46 um,
1:42:47 they are really interesting and I think
1:42:49 this event today really showed how it's
1:42:51 important that we bring knowledge together,
1:42:53 partner,
1:42:54 we go to scale,
1:42:55 we use IPCC special report on,
1:42:57 um,
1:42:57 cities and climate change,
1:42:58 and we use other actors to really amplify such messages.
1:43:03 Thank you very much.
1:43:05 Thank you.
1:43:06 Uh,
1:43:06 I have follow-up questions on that,
1:43:08 but we have two more contributions.
1:43:09 First,
1:43:10 Marais.
1:43:11 Um,
1:43:11 yeah,
1:43:12 thank you very much.
1:43:13 Um,
1:43:14 I think the,
1:43:17 maybe this is now the time for,
1:43:18 uh,
1:43:19 disagreement.
1:43:20 I think we tend to oversimplify what we need to do.
1:43:23 And that goes to Syrian's point.
1:43:25 It's not that simple.
1:43:27 We think it is that simple.
1:43:28 We say it in a very technocratic way,
1:43:30 but it's not.
1:43:31 There are two things that I want to pick up on Abbas's interventions earlier and now.
1:43:37 One is the issue of timeframe,
1:43:39 and the second one is the issue of political economy.
1:43:42 We operate in a political economy where
1:43:44 there are,
1:43:45 uh,
1:43:46 vested interests that prevail over common interests.
1:43:50 The second thing that we also struggle with with the IPCC
1:43:53 in general and with climate models and everything that we do
1:43:56 is the long term versus short term.
1:43:58 So if anyone has,
1:44:00 so,
1:44:00 I mean,
1:44:01 that's a question that I like asking.
1:44:03 Who thinks they will be alive by 2100?
1:44:06 Raise your hand,
1:44:07 please.
1:44:11 But,
1:44:12 oh,
1:44:12 really?
1:44:13 Nice.
1:44:15 Long life to you.
1:44:17 Now,
1:44:17 who thinks they will be alive by 2050,
1:44:20 which is generally when we project ourselves.
1:44:22 This is we're going to have a little bit more hands raised.
1:44:26 But the problem is that our climate projections,
1:44:28 our climate discourse is very much in these 2050 to 2100 time frames.
1:44:34 Which maybe some of us can relate to in terms of staying alive,
1:44:37 but not a lot of politicians can relate to in terms of the political mandates.
1:44:42 And if anyone in the rooms,
1:44:44 because I don't have any silver bullet on that,
1:44:47 if anyone in the room has a
1:44:50 recommendation on how do we reconcile these long term,
1:44:54 long term
1:44:55 trajectories to short term.
1:44:57 interests,
1:44:59 please let us know how to do that.
1:45:01 And going back to what I said earlier,
1:45:03 if you ask AI what is the best policy policy option,
1:45:07 they will.
1:45:08 AI chooses the long term option because AI actually
1:45:11 is not bound by short termist political electoral cycles,
1:45:17 but unfortunately we're still not ruled by AI.
1:45:22 There's a great quote by uh the European Commission
1:45:25 president,
1:45:26 I think it was Jean-Claude Juncker.
1:45:28 He says
1:45:29 that we all know what to do.
1:45:31 We just don't know how to get re-elected after we do it.
1:45:39 Now there are already too many things on my list because,
1:45:41 uh,
1:45:41 you said a lot of interesting things which I quickly want to react to as well.
1:45:43 But I think one thing on,
1:45:44 on what you just mentioned with the long term,
1:45:46 um,
1:45:47 I wanted to bring it up earlier as well when,
1:45:49 when we had the discussion about the economic analysis
1:45:52 because that's the same thing.
1:45:53 We,
1:45:53 we think about the cost between now and 5 years from now maybe,
1:45:56 but we don't do real life cycle costing.
1:45:58 We don't look at
1:46:00 Like the 500 year old,
1:46:01 uh,
1:46:01 tunnel,
1:46:02 those kind of considerations are not there.
1:46:04 You think about,
1:46:04 OK,
1:46:04 how much do I need to spend in the next 234 years in order to get where I want to get,
1:46:09 and any investments which are long term or the cost,
1:46:12 the,
1:46:12 the cost of not doing
1:46:14 what you're supposed to do,
1:46:15 the cost of inaction
1:46:16 is not relevant in the political sphere in most cases,
1:46:19 unfortunately.
1:46:20 So that's,
1:46:21 I think it's,
1:46:21 it's the political economy,
1:46:22 but it's also an investment and the economic consideration.
1:46:26 I wanted to return a little bit the favor on quoting
1:46:29 other organizations,
1:46:31 reports,
1:46:32 and I think for the political economy and the larger scale framing,
1:46:36 NDCs are one way.
1:46:38 So of course it's a very high level,
1:46:39 very political instrument,
1:46:41 but it,
1:46:41 it,
1:46:42 it starts to put the right things in the right places very high up in the policy line,
1:46:46 and then it can go down into other policies at a local level.
1:46:50 And you can I challenge you on that one.
1:46:54 I mean,
1:46:54 OK,
1:46:54 let's,
1:46:55 but I mean.
1:46:56 Do you think that any president,
1:46:58 for example,
1:46:59 let's say,
1:46:59 I don't want to name any country,
1:47:00 let's say President of country X,
1:47:03 would they be able to tell you even one thing in their NDC?
1:47:06 Unlikely.
1:47:07 So there you go.
1:47:09 I mean,
1:47:09 it's seen as an instrument which,
1:47:10 you know,
1:47:11 is something like a box to be checked,
1:47:13 but,
1:47:13 but I think what,
1:47:14 like,
1:47:15 regardless of how effective it might be,
1:47:16 let,
1:47:16 let's use it as a,
1:47:18 as a way to see how priorities are changing.
1:47:22 And in the past,
1:47:23 like there were the first generation of NDCs and there's a
1:47:25 very nice human habitat report on exactly that from LA,
1:47:28 um,
1:47:28 I think led by Leah who was here earlier,
1:47:30 where you see how over time there's more focus to local action and there's more,
1:47:34 more focus to adaptation and there's more to different climate risks.
1:47:37 Which hasn't been there before.
1:47:38 So even if it doesn't translate into direct action,
1:47:41 I believe it's a certain kind of representation of
1:47:44 more attention given even at the highest level.
1:47:47 Regardless how that then is transformed into action.
1:47:50 But I think coming to the initial question on,
1:47:52 on data,
1:47:53 I think one thing which I've seen in the very short time I've been with the World Bank,
1:47:56 which is 2 years or so.
1:47:58 In the beginning,
1:47:59 we had discussions about doing heat
1:48:01 risk mapping in one city,
1:48:02 and the cost of that
1:48:04 was the same as the
1:48:05 quotation we have now for the whole sub-Saharan African,
1:48:08 uh,
1:48:09 the number of cities.
1:48:10 Because
1:48:11 in this very short period of time,
1:48:13 methodologies,
1:48:13 and there's Nicholas,
1:48:15 there's Nick Jones,
1:48:16 there's Carly,
1:48:17 there are other people from GFDR,
1:48:18 one of our units
1:48:19 who have been doing a lot of work over the
1:48:21 last years to standardize to make things much more accessible,
1:48:24 so things which we couldn't do even two years ago
1:48:27 we can do today in a much bigger scale
1:48:29 and with a scientific accuracy which is more than enough for what we want to do.
1:48:33 So I think the scale is very important.
1:48:36 We have the data,
1:48:37 but we don't always look at the data together.
1:48:39 So we look at
1:48:40 heat data
1:48:41 and we have health data,
1:48:42 two different departments not talking to each other.
1:48:44 And the moment we put it together,
1:48:46 we know what the local impact of heat is on,
1:48:48 on the healthcare systems if the data is available.
1:48:50 In most places,
1:48:51 it is.
1:48:52 So that's,
1:48:53 that's another one.
1:48:53 And also case studies,
1:48:55 um,
1:48:56 local case studies is another type of data which
1:48:58 we barely have at this stage.
1:49:00 We have a starting point in the handbook,
1:49:02 but that's a very,
1:49:02 very small subset of what we actually need.
1:49:06 And I think last thing on,
1:49:07 on making it available,
1:49:09 if currently you want to look at,
1:49:11 so I,
1:49:11 I'll give you a very personal example.
1:49:13 I,
1:49:13 I'm now in,
1:49:14 in South Africa.
1:49:15 I tried to understand the heat patterns in South Africa.
1:49:18 I wanted to understand which cities are exposed how much to,
1:49:21 to heat.
1:49:22 I tried to find a map
1:49:24 I didn't succeed.
1:49:25 I didn't find the signal because what do you look for?
1:49:27 Do you look at
1:49:28 the maximum nighttime temperature,
1:49:30 which is one of the highest,
1:49:31 um,
1:49:31 or the most relevant parts for actual,
1:49:33 uh,
1:49:33 mortality?
1:49:34 Do you look at the maximum temperatures?
1:49:36 Do you look at the heat wave,
1:49:37 heat wave of 2 days,
1:49:38 3 days,
1:49:38 4 days?
1:49:39 You have no,
1:49:40 no standardized system more or less.
1:49:42 So even if data is there,
1:49:43 making it standardized and accessible,
1:49:45 and I think in other regions,
1:49:46 the World Bank has been doing that with the unlivable reports.
1:49:50 which is a way to more or less give a whole regional overview of what
1:49:53 actually is the situation on the ground
1:49:55 and be able to communicate it to policymakers
1:49:58 is something which is absolutely possible but where we are still lagging behind.
1:50:04 Thank you very much.
1:50:05 I see one person in the audience,
1:50:08 but to be honest,
1:50:09 I would like to have that conversation in the World Cafe.
1:50:14 We have one last question for the uh from the online audience and then we're gonna
1:50:18 uh turn completely um
1:50:21 offline and to this audience.
1:50:25 Oh
1:50:26 The laptop just gave its life away.
1:50:29 So from my uh memory,
1:50:31 the question was,
1:50:31 firstly,
1:50:32 it was a compliment saying that the handbook is a very insightful
1:50:36 and asking from a researcher's perspective who also does simulations,
1:50:42 um,
1:50:42 uh,
1:50:43 from his research and he was asking
1:50:46 how we then can
1:50:49 um kind of um
1:50:51 take from those simulations for to local action.
1:50:55 I think we talked about that
1:50:57 in a way.
1:50:58 We said
1:50:59 that context matters.
1:51:01 The handbook also talks a lot about context,
1:51:03 so I wanna kinda
1:51:05 Uh,
1:51:05 take that question and ask you because
1:51:08 the elephant in the room,
1:51:09 we've talked about it,
1:51:10 but not
1:51:11 really found a solution.
1:51:13 So,
1:51:13 it's about also political
1:51:15 um willingness,
1:51:17 right?
1:51:17 So,
1:51:18 from those simulations,
1:51:19 from that research,
1:51:21 how can we,
1:51:23 for a government that's only elected 5 years and doesn't
1:51:27 think of what happens after and we have all these long-term plans,
1:51:31 long-term
1:51:32 effects that we're gonna see in 50 years
1:51:35 or even 7 years,
1:51:37 how can we translate those things
1:51:39 into
1:51:40 actually
1:51:43 Things that matter for politics.
1:51:46 So how do we advocate
1:51:48 for heat,
1:51:50 against heat?
1:51:51 So,
1:51:52 I,
1:51:52 it's not an easy question because,
1:51:54 you know,
1:51:55 uh,
1:51:55 again,
1:51:56 if you go to a Ministry of Finance,
1:51:57 they have 10,000 competing priorities,
1:51:59 uh,
1:51:59 and it's very hard to uh
1:52:02 say that my,
1:52:02 my problem is the most important.
1:52:05 But there are a few things that I would suggest.
1:52:07 One is never let a crisis go to waste,
1:52:09 right?
1:52:10 Uh,
1:52:10 in a,
1:52:11 in,
1:52:11 in summer,
1:52:12 particularly,
1:52:13 you know,
1:52:14 it's routine in most countries to see,
1:52:16 you know,
1:52:16 people dying from heat.
1:52:18 And that is,
1:52:19 that is again
1:52:20 the time
1:52:21 to make the case of investing.
1:52:24 And if you can make the case that this actually ends up saving you money
1:52:28 by investing in advance,
1:52:30 that's a very powerful argument.
1:52:31 But again,
1:52:31 for that,
1:52:31 you need data,
1:52:32 you need visualization,
1:52:34 uh,
1:52:34 you need stories,
1:52:35 you know,
1:52:35 human stories
1:52:36 to tell that,
1:52:37 uh,
1:52:38 uh,
1:52:38 that,
1:52:39 that thing.
1:52:40 And since Jaak mentioned retrofitting of infrastructure,
1:52:43 I agree that it's very hard,
1:52:44 but I do want to give a shout out to a very,
1:52:46 very good project
1:52:47 that the World Bank had done with many other partners in Turkey,
1:52:51 which is called ISMEP.
1:52:52 It's the Istanbul Seismic Retrofitting Program.
1:52:55 And I'm mentioning this because,
1:52:57 uh,
1:52:57 we're not talking about earthquakes today,
1:52:59 but when you
1:53:00 go in and retrofit a school,
1:53:02 they actually make it new,
1:53:03 so they do energy efficiency,
1:53:04 you know,
1:53:05 the glazed windows,
1:53:06 the new bathrooms.
1:53:08 Uh,
1:53:08 so,
1:53:09 for the cost of one new school,
1:53:10 you can actually retrofit and make new 5 old schools.
1:53:13 It's a
1:53:14 remarkably cost-effective program.
1:53:16 I've been there.
1:53:17 I actually managed that program for a while.
1:53:19 And
1:53:20 when you talk to the parents,
1:53:22 they don't talk about earthquakes,
1:53:23 they talk about the new bathrooms that their kids have.
1:53:25 Um,
1:53:26 so those are the kind of programs that,
1:53:28 you know,
1:53:28 um,
1:53:29 will catch the politician's eye
1:53:31 and,
1:53:32 you know,
1:53:32 uh,
1:53:33 help push that forward.
1:53:34 But
1:53:34 I'm sure Mire and
1:53:36 Serene and have
1:53:38 More thoughts.
1:53:41 I think uh maybe also,
1:53:42 uh,
1:53:44 something that stood out from earlier contributions,
1:53:47 CSO and public involvement is very important.
1:53:50 Taking that momentum not only to the politics,
1:53:53 uh,
1:53:53 to,
1:53:53 to the politicians,
1:53:54 but also gain a movement
1:53:56 in the public with the help of CSOs.
1:53:59 Um,
1:54:00 I
1:54:01 I think
1:54:02 we can close the Q&A session now.
1:54:05 Uh,
1:54:05 thank you so,
1:54:06 so much for everyone here,
1:54:08 but also online I think over 120 people were registered online
1:54:12 and right now 15 warriors are still
1:54:17 with us.
1:54:17 So thank you very,
1:54:18 very much.
1:54:19 If you have more questions,
1:54:21 I think you can reach out to any of us.
1:54:23 Um,
1:54:24 so yeah,
1:54:25 thank you for joining.
1:54:28 And we're going to move on to our world cafe.
1:54:31 Uh,
1:54:32 I promised an explanation of what that world cafe is.
1:54:37 Um,
1:54:38 can I have the,
1:54:39 oh.
1:54:40 Thank you.
1:54:47 OK.
1:54:50 And for
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