00:00 Um,
00:01 our session number 5,
00:04 Africa growth and opportunity
00:06 with our esteemed panelists who are getting on
00:08 stage and will explore the factors driving economic
00:12 growth and opportunities across the African continent
00:15 and
00:16 Gerald Calero,
00:17 senior manager in the development data group at the World Bank,
00:20 who chaired the discussion.
00:21 He's right here.
00:22 After the session we're going to have lunch break finally.
00:25 And after the lunch break there's going to be the uh
00:28 the book signing and conversation that Intermit is going to have
00:31 with um uh with our author and just letting
00:34 everybody know that we're going to have free copies
00:36 of the book and uh she will be willing to spend a little bit of time to sign
00:41 some of them so uh please stick around.
00:43 Thank you.
00:45 Thank you.
00:46 uh.
00:47 I was starting,
00:48 I was going to start by saying good morning,
00:50 but I guess the way it's good afternoon and,
00:53 and,
00:54 uh,
00:54 uh,
00:55 would you like to,
00:57 yeah,
00:57 yeah,
00:57 you can start to set up,
00:59 uh,
00:59 what you're gonna see it's not a protocol we're gonna try to jump through,
01:04 uh,
01:04 a few hoops to try to get uh.
01:08 Uh,
01:08 to,
01:09 uh,
01:09 the end,
01:10 uh,
01:10 probably in,
01:11 uh,
01:12 give,
01:12 give us,
01:13 uh,
01:13 50 minutes,
01:14 like maybe an hour,
01:15 so if we can delay lunch a little bit.
01:18 Uh,
01:19 so I had this plan,
01:20 like I mean to have a,
01:22 a,
01:22 a conversation.
01:23 So this is a little bit of a different format than what you have seen until now.
01:27 No paper presentation.
01:28 I just want to have a conversation
01:30 which I think is gonna turn into speed dating
01:33 more than a conversation because we don't have,
01:36 uh,
01:36 time.
01:37 I had all this grandiose plan
01:39 to have multiple questions,
01:41 uh,
01:41 but,
01:41 uh,
01:42 I think we're gonna do,
01:43 uh,
01:44 what,
01:44 what we can do with the time.
01:46 Uh,
01:47 available just,
01:48 uh,
01:48 allow me a couple of minutes to frame the conversation at least,
01:52 uh,
01:53 so I have two objectives here.
01:55 We have two objectives.
01:56 One is,
01:57 uh,
01:57 to,
01:58 uh,
01:58 reflect
01:59 on the discussions until now that we had in ABCD,
02:04 but,
02:04 uh,
02:05 what does it mean for Africa?
02:07 So a lot of the discussion and focused on other,
02:10 uh,
02:10 have been an overemphasis on other,
02:13 on other regions.
02:14 Uh,
02:15 but there's a lot of implications on all of this discussion for Africa.
02:19 So we brought,
02:19 uh,
02:20 here,
02:20 we're fortunate enough to bring,
02:21 uh,
02:22 uh,
02:24 top experts on Africa who can tell us a
02:26 little bit to what the implications are for Africa.
02:29 So Massuda,
02:30 uh,
02:31 yesterday spoke of a multilateralism whenever we can,
02:36 only
02:36 when we must.
02:38 So is it for Africa a mass moment like let me just,
02:40 is this the moment for Africa to.
02:42 Uh,
02:43 make some decisions that,
02:45 uh,
02:45 maybe until now there's not been,
02:47 uh,
02:48 pressure to do or,
02:49 or needed to be done,
02:51 uh,
02:51 and then,
02:52 but the,
02:53 the other objective that I had,
02:54 and this is a little bit self promotional,
02:57 uh,
02:57 is to give a bit of an introduction,
03:00 uh,
03:00 on,
03:00 uh,
03:01 on an event that we are organized as part of the
03:03 Institute for Economic Development which is gonna be happening in the fall
03:07 which
03:08 it's,
03:08 uh,
03:09 uh.
03:10 We can skip the slide that we can put the slide
03:13 which is uh uh a called agora.
03:17 This uh this discussion here wants to be a stop on the road to Agora.
03:22 Uh,
03:23 and,
03:23 uh,
03:24 and we wanted to take advantage of this impressive,
03:26 uh,
03:27 intellectual backdrop of the ABCD to have this,
03:30 uh,
03:31 this conversation
03:32 and discuss some of the points that we'll be discussing in a lot more detail
03:37 in the 3 days at the conference in,
03:39 uh,
03:40 in the fall.
03:41 So AGOA
03:42 stands for Africa Growth and Opportunity Research and Action.
03:46 Uh,
03:46 which is,
03:47 uh,
03:47 one of the flagship conferences that the Institute will
03:50 be organizing in Palermo this year in November,
03:54 uh,
03:55 jointly with the,
03:56 with the Bank of Italy,
03:57 the government of Italy,
03:58 uh,
03:59 and,
03:59 uh,
04:00 several leading think tanks in Africa,
04:03 uh.
04:05 So Agora,
04:06 so what is it,
04:07 what is it different?
04:08 I mean,
04:08 I,
04:08 you heard a lot about multilateralism,
04:11 uh,
04:11 uh,
04:12 development cooperation.
04:13 We need to think differently about the development cooperation and how we do,
04:17 how we engage,
04:18 uh,
04:18 with,
04:19 uh,
04:19 with countries with clients,
04:20 so it's.
04:21 Somebody say that I think it was said this morning,
04:23 uh,
04:24 so we need to think of country as client.
04:26 We need to think of countries as partners as well.
04:29 So it's like how do we engage with institutions and countries and client countries
04:34 to achieve,
04:34 uh,
04:35 like I just said,
04:35 the,
04:36 the mission that we all have.
04:38 And,
04:38 uh,
04:38 so they,
04:39 they,
04:39 they,
04:40 we,
04:40 we're trying to promote a new model of cooperation whether it's on,
04:43 uh,
04:44 in research,
04:45 in investment,
04:46 in policy dialogue.
04:48 Uh,
04:48 that advances the,
04:50 the Italy's piano Mate for Africa.
04:52 So
04:53 why Italy piano mate for Africa?
04:55 So who is Enrico Mattei?
04:57 Rigo Mattei was this industrialist,
04:59 this,
05:00 uh,
05:00 uh,
05:01 in,
05:01 uh.
05:03 In the 60s,
05:04 and I think he died in 1963 in a,
05:07 in an accident,
05:09 in an air airplane accident still uh unexplained,
05:15 uh which tried to break the mold in the way oil companies engage with uh with Africa.
05:22 So the seven sisters like in just uh of uh of uh
05:26 And uh uh and introduced this principle that
05:30 countries like I should keep 75% of profits
05:34 from oil exploration.
05:37 Uh,
05:37 so which is a little bit of a of a different
05:40 uh approach to uh to in that particular case of private sector
05:45 uh involvement in this case,
05:47 in our,
05:47 in our case it's not even a private sector involvement,
05:50 it's a,
05:50 it's a public institution.
05:51 It's like how do we
05:53 engage with Africa in a.
05:54 Way that it's uh reflected the principle
05:58 of whether it's 60 75% or it's 50% but it's certainly we're a lot lower
06:04 now in uh when we think about if we want to quantify the way of uh
06:08 and this is what Agora what we're trying
06:09 to achieve in agora starting with the participation
06:12 and the presentations from African scholars African
06:17 institutions where we want a
06:20 a very uh heavy participation,
06:22 uh,
06:23 so.
06:24 This year agora will focus on two priority areas,
06:27 which is energy and agribusiness.
06:29 But with the jobs,
06:30 which is in everybody's mind,
06:32 the jobs is a cross-cutting
06:34 theme for
06:35 for this year.
06:36 But agora means it's also meant to be a continuous engagement.
06:39 It's not just a conference.
06:41 We want to continue the engagement
06:42 and in fact,
06:43 like we're already planning post agora,
06:45 we were planning an,
06:46 uh,
06:46 an industrial policy conference in Nairobi.
06:50 Where we already received over 1100 abstract,
06:54 I guess the industrial policy is the topic of the day
06:57 and,
06:58 uh,
06:58 so this is going to be part of the post agora.
07:02 So here's when I was gonna talk to you
07:04 about all the challenges and opportunities in Africa.
07:07 I will skip it like because I'm sure you know
07:11 uh probably a lot more and certainly the panelists.
07:14 So I'll just go straight to the panelists by first of
07:18 all apologizing because I can just say you've been very patient
07:22 and uh and patient until now and now you've been
07:26 asked also to speed up in uh in your answer.
07:30 uh so I guess the dinner will not do.
07:32 I think we'll have have to do a lot more than that
07:37 uh
07:38 uh yeah,
07:39 that's uh like a dinner in Palermo.
07:41 OK,
07:41 that's probably that uh the.
07:44 Uh,
07:44 so we have a
07:47 45 minutes at the most we had 90,
07:49 uh,
07:49 we have an infinite amount of knowledge.
07:51 If my math is not wrong,
07:54 like I fed an infinite into 45 minutes,
07:57 uh,
07:57 it's impossible,
07:58 but we're gonna do it.
07:59 And,
08:00 uh,
08:00 so I was planning a couple of rounds of questions if we do one or
08:04 1.5,
08:05 uh,
08:05 but I just want to get to the,
08:07 uh,
08:08 to some of the objectives of this session.
08:11 Uh,
08:11 so if you allow me,
08:13 I will kind of almost entirely skip on the,
08:18 uh,
08:18 on the introduction other than names and the current title,
08:24 uh,
08:24 but,
08:24 uh,
08:25 also I'm sure you can go on the,
08:27 there's such a thing called the web
08:29 you can find all the information that you need and all the speakers.
08:33 Uh,
08:34 so,
08:34 uh,
08:34 it,
08:35 it,
08:35 I will not go into in the order.
08:37 Well,
08:37 uh,
08:38 Andrew Dan,
08:38 I'll go,
08:39 I'll follow the,
08:40 the,
08:40 the order.
08:40 Andrew Dan is a Africa chief economist
08:44 at the,
08:44 at the,
08:45 at the World Bank.
08:46 Uh,
08:47 Ambassador Sanders is a former US ambassador to Nigeria NDRC,
08:52 uh,
08:52 and currently the,
08:53 the,
08:54 uh,
08:54 CEO of,
08:55 uh,
08:56 uh,
08:57 Feeds.
08:58 Uh,
08:58 and she's also in the currently in the White House and National Security Council,
09:04 uh,
09:05 uh,
09:05 Jo Swinan,
09:06 uh,
09:07 Director General of,
09:08 uh,
09:08 IFRI,
09:09 the International Food Policy Research Institute,
09:11 where I had the also the privilege to work,
09:14 uh,
09:15 at,
09:15 uh,
09:16 uh,
09:16 when I was,
09:16 uh,
09:17 uh,
09:17 young and,
09:18 uh,
09:18 and promising.
09:20 Uh,
09:21 and then,
09:21 uh,
09:22 and then we have a professor,
09:24 uh,
09:25 Leonard Waanchacon,
09:26 uh,
09:26 which I need to say that just one thing about Professor Waanchaon other than being,
09:31 uh,
09:31 the James Madison,
09:33 uh,
09:33 professor,
09:34 uh,
09:35 of politics and international affairs at Princeton University
09:38 and the founder of the African School of Economics is also the proudly the first,
09:44 uh,
09:44 uh,
09:44 African,
09:45 uh,
09:45 uh,
09:46 teaching in an Ivy League school,
09:48 uh,
09:48 in the US.
09:49 And then finally my friend Matteo,
09:51 uh,
09:52 the,
09:52 uh,
09:53 Italian ED,
09:54 uh,
09:55 representing also I think it's a long list,
09:58 but I don't wanna offend anyone,
10:00 uh,
10:01 Greece,
10:02 Italy,
10:03 Malta,
10:03 Portugal,
10:04 San Marino,
10:04 and Timor-Leste,
10:05 but most importantly,
10:06 Matteo is also the dean of the board,
10:08 the current dean of the board,
10:09 and has been chair of several,
10:11 uh,
10:11 committees.
10:12 So without further ado,
10:14 uh,
10:14 if you allow me,
10:15 let's jump.
10:16 I'm gonna sit in my little chair and we'll go with the,
10:20 with the first question.
10:25 as you can see,
10:26 I,
10:26 I can talk faster,
10:27 but uh there is a limit,
10:30 uh.
10:32 Yeah,
10:32 yeah,
10:32 so that's,
10:33 uh,
10:33 and uh we have uh the one minute,
10:35 uh,
10:36 please,
10:36 uh,
10:37 try to,
10:37 uh,
10:39 abide to the,
10:40 uh,
10:41 so,
10:42 uh,
10:43 let me start with Andrew,
10:44 like then,
10:45 uh,
10:46 uh,
10:46 since you're sitting right next to me,
10:48 so
10:49 yesterday you were,
10:50 you were part of the,
10:51 uh,
10:52 you were listening to the the the conversation.
10:54 There was a lot of discussion about the multilateralism
10:57 in the face of the current global trade dis disruption.
11:01 Uh,
11:01 your office is about to launch a new report on,
11:04 uh,
11:04 on trade integration in Africa.
11:06 So the,
11:08 uh,
11:08 feel like,
11:08 let me just and we talked about this,
11:10 the ambition and aspiration of,
11:12 uh,
11:13 uh,
11:13 of,
11:14 uh,
11:14 trade agreement like the,
11:16 uh,
11:16 AF,
11:16 uh,
11:17 uh,
11:17 CT CFTA,
11:19 the comprehensive,
11:21 it's a,
11:21 there's a lot of expectation,
11:23 but,
11:23 uh,
11:23 it hasn't met the promises.
11:25 So where are the,
11:25 where are the bottlenecks,
11:27 where are the challenges.
11:28 Uh,
11:29 but,
11:29 uh,
11:30 uh,
11:31 more importantly,
11:32 if you can touch upon,
11:33 uh,
11:34 given the,
11:34 the,
11:35 the moment,
11:36 is it the right,
11:37 is it a good time for,
11:39 for Africa use,
11:41 uh,
11:41 kind of again,
11:42 a,
11:43 a pan-African trade agreements or even regional trade agreement,
11:47 uh,
11:47 Iran the COMESA and West Africa,
11:49 like I just said to,
11:50 uh,
11:51 to in a way,
11:52 uh,
11:52 be more,
11:53 uh,
11:54 responsive to the current crisis.
11:58 Um,
11:59 OK,
11:59 so thank you.
12:00 Um,
12:01 so we all owe our
12:04 Lack of time to intermit.
12:08 Which means basically that we will come,
12:10 we will come and collect our bills at some point.
12:13 Um.
12:15 So look,
12:15 I,
12:16 I think,
12:17 you know,
12:17 when we indeed we are working on a,
12:19 on a,
12:19 on a report on trade integration in Africa,
12:22 which specifically looks at how
12:24 How to make
12:26 continental free trade agreement that was signed.
12:30 Back in 2018
12:33 work,
12:33 right?
12:33 So that was mostly our,
12:36 our,
12:36 our objective.
12:37 So when
12:38 When we started this we didn't think about multilateralism.
12:40 It was in the back of the,
12:42 you know,
12:42 it was in the background,
12:43 but we weren't thinking about that.
12:44 We were mostly thinking about,
12:45 OK,
12:45 how,
12:46 how
12:47 this trade agreement
12:49 across multiple countries,
12:50 how do we make it work?
12:51 And I guess,
12:53 having listened to a lot of talk recently,
12:55 I mean the last couple of days about multilateralism,
12:58 the fact that 55 countries in Africa are actually committing to a free trade area.
13:04 That count as a multilateral
13:06 agreement,
13:06 right?
13:07 So,
13:08 so in that case,
13:08 they get the points.
13:10 Now,
13:11 a lot of people
13:13 have already started evaluating African continental free
13:16 trade as having not delivered things.
13:19 And I think my sense about this is like,
13:22 look,
13:23 it's,
13:23 it was launched 4 years ago.
13:26 Trade agreements are very complicated.
13:29 It will take a lot of time.
13:31 And there's still a lot of things that these countries have to work through,
13:34 right?
13:35 So I think of it as,
13:37 OK,
13:37 it's one of these like you must do.
13:40 But it will actually require a lot of effort and a lot of negotiations and a lot of,
13:44 I mean,
13:44 you know,
13:45 taking into consideration a lot of the things that
13:48 You know,
13:49 the global multilateral trade agreements have brought out,
13:53 right,
13:53 so those things will still be within,
13:55 you know,
13:56 will be present.
13:57 And my,
13:59 my argument would be that,
14:00 you know,
14:00 look,
14:01 there are some things that are promising
14:03 which are which need to be worked out,
14:05 such as,
14:06 for example,
14:07 the constraints are certainly physical infrastructure,
14:10 right,
14:10 so but they're thinking about,
14:12 you know,
14:12 corridors at the moment,
14:13 right?
14:13 There's the Lobito corridor which is attracting a lot of attention from both the US,
14:18 EU,
14:20 even China.
14:21 There is the,
14:22 you know,
14:22 Lagos
14:24 and Abidjan corridor that they're working on.
14:27 There are the central corridors in eastern Africa.
14:29 So there are a lot of things they're working on.
14:32 So that's the kind of stuff that eventually will
14:34 actually bind these countries together and probably lead to
14:37 better trade agreements.
14:38 Another promising area is power pools.
14:41 So they're actually agreeing,
14:43 you know,
14:43 that these,
14:44 you know,
14:45 the countries are basically linking
14:46 their power generation capacity across borders
14:50 so that at least they can,
14:51 they can actually
14:52 be able to,
14:54 you know,
14:54 trade across borders on power and
14:57 And that is happening
14:59 both in eastern and southern Africa but also in West Africa,
15:01 right?
15:02 So those are some of the things that are very important,
15:04 but my sense is that the biggest problem is going to be on policy actually.
15:09 Harmonizing policy,
15:10 non-trade agreements,
15:12 uh,
15:12 and then non,
15:13 sorry,
15:13 non-tariff barriers,
15:14 I mean getting rid of non-tariff barriers,
15:16 those are going to be the biggest wins
15:18 if the,
15:18 if this,
15:19 if this whole continental trade agreement
15:21 has to work,
15:22 in addition to,
15:23 of course,
15:23 fixing the infrastructure issues.
15:25 Let me stop here and then we'll,
15:26 we'll discuss more.
15:28 Fantastic earned a coffee.
15:32 Ambassador uh Sanders,
15:34 first of all,
15:34 thanks,
15:35 thanks for being here.
15:36 So
15:37 you've been involved uh
15:39 in in your former capacity in uh
15:42 uh in the Africa Growth and Opportunity Act.
15:48 Uh,
15:48 so
15:49 the AGA has been renegotiated,
15:52 uh,
15:52 now,
15:53 uh,
15:53 as we speak,
15:55 and,
15:55 uh.
15:57 What would a world with or without agoa look like for Africa?
16:03 And uh and what recommendation would you give,
16:07 uh,
16:07 to make a case uh in favor or against AOA?
16:13 Yes,
16:13 thank you.
16:14 I,
16:15 I actually want to make two quick corrections,
16:17 uh,
16:18 so I don't want anyone to,
16:19 to think I'm misrepresenting myself.
16:21 I was ambassador to the Republic of Congo,
16:23 not DRC,
16:24 and I served as a previous director for Africa at the National Security Council,
16:28 not currently.
16:30 So,
16:30 uh,
16:30 I just want to make sure that I clear that up.
16:33 Uh,
16:33 in terms of AOA,
16:34 um,
16:35 uh,
16:35 you know,
16:35 it's,
16:36 it has right now maybe about a 9 week clock left on the,
16:40 the legislation or so depending on.
16:42 Uh,
16:42 you know,
16:43 what the,
16:43 uh,
16:44 uh,
16:44 current leadership
16:45 wants to have as a relationship with,
16:48 with the continent vis a vis trade.
16:51 Uh,
16:51 Ago was never a development tool.
16:54 It was a trade preference,
16:56 um,
16:57 uh,
16:57 framework,
16:58 and I think over the years that's gotten conflated
17:02 where people have looked at AOA as a development
17:05 tool,
17:06 and that was never the intention,
17:08 and I think that that's why in a lot of ways,
17:11 uh,
17:11 aspects of underutilization of AOA
17:14 has happened over the last 25 years.
17:17 And so my argument now is really.
17:20 To make sure that we have a trade relationship with the
17:24 continent whether it's AOA or whether it's some other framework,
17:27 I think there are indications
17:30 now,
17:30 uh,
17:31 that the transactional framework,
17:34 uh,
17:34 either with individual countries or with regional groupings with
17:38 with with within the continent or even with the,
17:42 uh,
17:42 Africa CFTA,
17:44 uh,
17:44 might be the framework that the current administration is looking toward.
17:49 And so I think that,
17:51 uh,
17:51 you know,
17:51 there's a,
17:52 there's a,
17:53 a viewpoint
17:55 where
17:56 we either are engaged with the continent or we're not,
17:58 and my argument has always been to have a trade relationship with the continent.
18:04 I'm not arguing for or against AOA necessarily.
18:07 I'm just arguing for that relationship.
18:09 And the thing that I say on a lot of speaking engagements that I talk about,
18:15 at least from the American perspective,
18:17 is,
18:18 you know,
18:18 if you're not working with the continent,
18:20 then you're missing a tremendous opportunity
18:23 currently and also down the line.
18:25 Not only will the continent have the largest combined
18:28 working age population for the next,
18:31 you know,
18:31 whatever.
18:32 Um,
18:33 that means that where are you going to even sell your goods and services to,
18:37 you know,
18:37 if you're not involved with the continent,
18:39 and conversely,
18:40 I think that it's up to
18:43 African nations and African leadership to determine
18:46 who they want to be involved with.
18:48 It's not for us to determine that,
18:49 it's for them to determine that.
18:51 And whether they do it on a regional basis,
18:53 whether they do it on a continental basis,
18:56 whether they.
18:57 Do it on an individual country basis.
18:59 I think that's up to the African nations to,
19:01 to decide,
19:02 and I pushed back,
19:03 uh,
19:04 on the American,
19:05 uh,
19:06 perspective that,
19:08 you know,
19:08 we need to be telling,
19:09 we need to be listening and engaging as partners.
19:12 We can't be neo-colonialists ourselves.
19:15 Um,
19:15 that is my,
19:16 has been my position for a very,
19:18 very long time.
19:19 I think going forward,
19:20 um,
19:22 some of the areas that uh.
19:24 Uh,
19:25 my panelist colleague here has mentioned about,
19:28 you know,
19:28 where do you look for those
19:30 transactional
19:31 areas,
19:31 you know,
19:32 whether it's,
19:32 um,
19:33 agriculture,
19:35 whether it's infrastructure,
19:37 uh,
19:37 uh,
19:37 whether it's mining,
19:39 whether it's rare earth minerals,
19:40 etc.
19:41 Uh,
19:42 several years back I wrote a book talking about,
19:44 you know,
19:45 what are the top 8 sectors
19:47 where,
19:48 um,
19:48 you know,
19:49 Africa
19:50 working with the US could focus on,
19:52 and I still think those 8 sectors are still
19:55 quite,
19:56 uh,
19:56 relevant today.
19:57 Um,
19:58 I call that my top 8 list actually,
20:00 and I looked at it recently,
20:01 and I still think it still has,
20:03 has merit.
20:04 And you know,
20:05 you look at,
20:06 you know,
20:06 agriculture.
20:07 The thing that there's nothing that I'm saying that is new here.
20:10 I think the sectors that I'm going to highlight are the
20:13 same sectors that we've all talked about over the years.
20:15 And so it's certainly
20:17 agriculture.
20:18 There's a lot of emphasis today on rare earth minerals.
20:21 There's manufacturing,
20:24 uh,
20:24 certainly,
20:25 I would say even climate smart tourism.
20:27 Uh,
20:28 I would also talk about housing and housing development because
20:32 you have a huge housing challenge on the continent
20:35 and you've had that for years and years.
20:37 I've worked on those things,
20:39 energy,
20:39 and that's both,
20:40 you know,
20:41 climate smart energy as well as traditional
20:43 energy and how you upgrade those things.
20:45 So I think that the argument today from my perspective is
20:50 we need to have a trade relationship with the continent.
20:54 Determine working together with the continent on
20:56 what that relationship is going to look like
20:59 and whether it is a GoA
21:00 currently or a GA 2.2.0,
21:04 uh,
21:04 it doesn't matter,
21:05 but it needs,
21:06 we need to have a relationship,
21:07 a trade relationship,
21:08 and a robust one with the continent.
21:11 Uh,
21:11 you will know that,
21:13 um,
21:14 I think in last year's FOCAC with China,
21:17 they have started to create their own AGa-like framework.
21:20 Uh,
21:21 where African products will be able to come into China duty free.
21:25 So
21:25 if we're not
21:27 in the game,
21:28 then we're going to,
21:29 we're going to lose that dynamism that
21:32 that Africa brings to the table.
21:34 And lastly,
21:35 and I'll close here in respect for the time,
21:37 I've always said that,
21:38 you know,
21:39 if we're not in the room,
21:40 then we're on the menu.
21:42 Uh,
21:43 and,
21:43 uh,
21:44 I would like to see us in the room working in partnership with the continent.
21:48 Thank you and my apologies for the,
21:51 but,
21:51 uh,
21:52 I was going by memory and uh uh at this age like I just,
21:56 uh,
21:56 it doesn't,
21:57 it doesn't always help.
21:59 Mateo,
22:00 uh,
22:00 just,
22:01 uh,
22:01 going back to the multilateralism yesterday you,
22:04 uh,
22:05 you chair a session,
22:06 very interesting session
22:07 on multilateralism,
22:09 your reflection on,
22:10 uh,
22:11 what's,
22:11 uh,
22:12 uh,
22:13 what about Africa?
22:14 So what does it mean for Africa?
22:16 Uh,
22:17 but also turning to the piano mate it's like how can he serve what as we are claiming,
22:23 how can he serve a new as a new model
22:26 for cooperation with Africa.
22:29 Thank you Jiro.
22:30 Yes indeed.
22:31 Yesterday's panel was very,
22:34 very interesting and useful.
22:35 Thanks to the excellent
22:37 participants.
22:38 We cannot deny that the main theme of the panel was to say that,
22:42 you know,
22:42 multilateralism is a bit in trouble
22:46 and so,
22:47 and very constructively,
22:48 I would say the panelists spoke about alternatives,
22:51 but at the same time showing,
22:53 arguing that those alternatives
22:55 can be sort of way of building.
22:57 Uh,
22:57 a new,
22:58 uh,
22:58 uh,
22:58 uh,
22:58 uh,
22:59 multilateralism,
23:00 and this is something that I really appreciate that.
23:02 I have to say that in my position,
23:04 I wanna say that we have to do all
23:06 we,
23:07 we can
23:08 to keep,
23:08 uh,
23:08 uh,
23:09 uh,
23:10 multilateralism alive,
23:11 uh,
23:12 especially I would say,
23:13 uh,
23:13 for Africa,
23:14 uh,
23:14 connecting to your question,
23:16 uh,
23:17 mm,
23:18 you know,
23:19 as I said yesterday at the board of the World Bank,
23:21 we,
23:21 we,
23:22 we,
23:22 we really believe and everyday we work for,
23:24 uh,
23:24 uh,
23:25 multilateral.
23:26 Uh,
23:26 uh,
23:27 approach,
23:27 uh,
23:27 if I look at what we have achieved in the last two years,
23:31 uh,
23:31 basically,
23:32 uh,
23:33 significantly,
23:34 significant increase in the availability of financial resources.
23:37 Let's talk,
23:38 for example,
23:38 about IDA,
23:39 an example where 70% of the resources go
23:42 to Africa,
23:43 increased financial commitment,
23:44 increase,
23:45 uh,
23:45 uh,
23:45 disbursement,
23:46 and a lot of work to increase,
23:47 uh,
23:48 what we call the operational efficiency and effective institution.
23:51 All this,
23:52 I think,
23:52 has been reached,
23:53 uh,
23:54 through.
23:54 Uh,
23:55 cooperation,
23:56 dialogue and consensus,
23:57 uh,
23:58 within the board.
23:58 So this is a big sign of,
24:00 uh,
24:01 uh,
24:02 multilateralism.
24:02 Obviously,
24:04 I cannot deny that the situation is slightly different and is difficult,
24:09 but at the same time,
24:11 I want to say that uh for
24:13 who does our job,
24:14 we should simply accept that at some point.
24:17 Priorities,
24:18 areas of collaboration,
24:19 opportunities change over time,
24:21 sometimes more
24:22 abruptly than other times,
24:24 but this is,
24:24 this is,
24:25 this is our work,
24:26 and
24:26 I truly believe that at the end multilateral,
24:29 multilateralism is the only,
24:31 really the only possibility,
24:32 the only response to the
24:34 global environment in which we,
24:36 we live,
24:37 uh,
24:37 one in which we are very
24:41 Connected,
24:41 very,
24:42 very strictly,
24:42 very closely connected in ways that are also very complicated.
24:45 Think of the global value chain.
24:47 We have experts here,
24:48 so it's very difficult to imagine
24:50 that at some point
24:51 any of us can really disconnect from,
24:53 from,
24:54 from that,
24:55 from that environment.
24:56 So I want to remain
24:57 in that sense optimistic,
24:59 and I think we need to keep talking to all and find common grounds,
25:02 find new solutions.
25:03 Probably multilateralism is somewhere in another space.
25:06 We have to look.
25:07 Uh,
25:08 for,
25:08 uh,
25:08 uh,
25:09 multilateralism in a,
25:10 in a,
25:10 in a different,
25:11 in a different,
25:11 uh,
25:12 space,
25:12 especially I would say in this institution,
25:14 which is not only a global institution but it is a global institution with a strong,
25:19 uh,
25:20 regional presence and knowledge.
25:22 So going back to yesterday's discussion when
25:24 regionalism was in a sense,
25:26 uh,
25:27 correctly so,
25:27 I mean,
25:28 the,
25:28 the right answer to the,
25:29 to the current situation,
25:30 this institution is at the same time
25:32 global and regional.
25:33 So I think that here we can do
25:35 really a lot.
25:37 A regionalism and and Africa.
25:40 That was a question that I asked yesterday to the panelists and
25:45 Uh,
25:46 you know,
25:46 it's a difficult,
25:47 uh,
25:47 because
25:48 yesterday we,
25:49 we,
25:49 we got many examples from Asia,
25:51 and,
25:52 uh,
25:53 useful example from Asia.
25:54 I would say that regions and continents are different,
25:57 so we should
25:58 really dig into the,
25:59 uh,
26:00 region and country specificities.
26:02 There are differences and probably different,
26:05 different approaches,
26:05 different instruments,
26:06 different solutions are needed.
26:08 So
26:09 I'm not really able to develop
26:11 very much here.
26:12 There are a great expert,
26:13 uh.
26:14 Uh,
26:14 close to me,
26:15 but I would say that we are the World Bank,
26:16 so let's look at the details and let's look at the things that can be,
26:20 uh,
26:21 uh,
26:21 lessons learned from from Asia and things that are,
26:24 uh,
26:25 uh,
26:25 intrinsically different in in Africa and we have to take care
26:28 of that.
26:29 But definitely I agree with previous speakers that Africans,
26:32 uh,
26:33 must strive to increase regional integration,
26:37 and that was a point that has been already
26:39 made.
26:39 I would say regional integration within Africa
26:42 and regional integration with other continents.
26:44 And so this goes back to the what we were
26:46 discussing as a region as programic to creating a new
26:49 multilateralism,
26:50 and here I would think about Africa and Europe
26:54 and
26:55 and here with the May plan kicks in.
26:57 So I didn't want to make any self promotion,
26:59 but that was
27:01 the question that I got,
27:02 so I have to.
27:03 Uh,
27:03 talk about it,
27:04 uh,
27:04 as Giro said,
27:05 uh,
27:06 uh,
27:06 this is,
27:06 uh,
27:07 uh,
27:08 the novel approach that uh uh the Italian government has decided to apply
27:13 in,
27:13 uh,
27:14 its relationship with Africa,
27:15 basically three components,
27:17 three ingredients.
27:18 The first one,
27:19 as you said,
27:20 uh,
27:20 the idea of,
27:21 uh,
27:21 uh,
27:22 also the ambassador said to talk about,
27:24 uh,
27:24 uh,
27:25 equal partnership with shared benefits and shared responsibilities,
27:30 not just a matter of benefits,
27:31 but also
27:32 Responsibilities
27:34 co-designing solutions.
27:36 So this is the second element,
27:37 and this very much speaks to the approach of the World Bank,
27:40 which is a country-driven approach,
27:42 country,
27:43 a demand-driven approach.
27:44 So it's not possible to design
27:46 things that are relevant for Africa,
27:49 from Italy or from Europe.
27:50 It's something that should come from Africa.
27:53 And the third element is just to talk about concrete projects instead of,
27:57 uh,
27:57 you know,
27:57 talking about high level principle and so on.
28:00 Let's,
28:00 let's work on projects
28:02 and uh some of these projects have been mentioned and uh
28:06 energy access,
28:07 which is a key
28:08 mission initiative of the bank with Mission 300,
28:12 training,
28:12 green
28:13 infrastructure,
28:14 digital innovation,
28:15 and,
28:15 and,
28:15 uh,
28:16 uh,
28:17 and so on.
28:18 Just to clarify another element,
28:20 this is not just the approach that Italy is using
28:23 with the idea of a bilateral engagement with Africa.
28:25 It must be multilateral again.
28:27 And so I go back to this
28:29 multilateralism and so some events that happened recently.
28:33 There has been
28:36 an event in Rome on June 20th with President Banga joining.
28:39 We're organized by Italy,
28:41 by the Prime Minister of Italy,
28:43 but we,
28:43 the European Union involved,
28:46 the European Commission,
28:47 President von der Leyen,
28:48 the World Bank,
28:49 the African Development Bank.
28:50 So the idea
28:51 would be that we can,
28:52 we can achieve relevant results only if we
28:54 work all together with the global institution.
28:57 And and with the EU involved because in a sense if you take the Italian perspective,
29:03 I mean
29:03 we are putting a lot of money in the midst said that we are rich I'm not sure we are rich,
29:08 but
29:08 for us it's a lot of money but clearly the European Union can,
29:11 can increase significantly.
29:13 Uh,
29:14 the amount of money,
29:15 uh,
29:15 involved and the project we were talking about
29:17 was the Lobito corridor that has been mentioned,
29:19 the Blue Raman Sea
29:21 cable,
29:22 uh,
29:22 in an Italian initiative on the
29:24 sustainable coffee value chain.
29:26 So we are talking about agriculture and then everything that is connected to
29:30 energy and so on.
29:31 Just to go quickly to the conclusion,
29:33 I mean,
29:34 it seems that we are talking something talking about
29:36 something that is very much into the public sector,
29:39 but no,
29:40 the idea is to have the private sector involved
29:42 too,
29:42 which is very important for sustainable growth.
29:45 In Africa,
29:46 so here the idea again
29:47 following the same spirit is to have,
29:50 you know,
29:50 partnership between international companies from,
29:54 you say,
29:55 advanced countries,
29:56 but at the same time local companies.
29:57 So the idea
29:58 is to have local companies always involved because at the end we want to create.
30:03 Uh,
30:03 development that is there to stay.
30:06 And again,
30:07 we cannot do this without institutions like the World Bank.
30:10 The World Bank means uh
30:12 all the other regional development banks means,
30:14 uh,
30:15 reaching scale and impact,
30:16 leveraging
30:18 scarce aid resources better,
30:20 and as you know,
30:22 uh,
30:22 under the leadership of
30:24 President Banga,
30:26 this new idea of improving and strengthening our capacity to attract
30:32 private capital into development,
30:34 which is a difficult thing,
30:35 but I think we are also
30:36 succeeding there.
30:37 So this is
30:39 More or less,
30:39 uh,
30:40 the response to the African needs.
30:41 Let me stop here.
30:42 Thanks,
30:42 thanks,
30:42 Matteo.
30:43 Uh,
30:43 just to be fair,
30:45 like you just said,
30:46 I let,
30:46 uh,
30:47 Matteo talk way past the 5 minutes because he might have to leave at 1:30.
30:52 So,
30:52 and so this way,
30:53 he uh,
30:54 he's already,
30:55 uh,
30:55 but we'll try to get to the,
30:57 uh,
30:57 to the second question.
30:59 Leonard,
31:00 uh,
31:01 I had a question for you,
31:02 but,
31:02 uh,
31:03 I just wanna,
31:04 I was wondering whether you can,
31:05 you want to react first.
31:07 To what,
31:08 uh,
31:08 Mateo said about uh the
31:11 uh the Mattei plan and the the need for,
31:15 for African to be on the driver's seat,
31:17 uh,
31:18 anyway,
31:18 so,
31:19 and then,
31:20 uh,
31:20 but my question to you was also,
31:22 uh,
31:23 so you're an educator,
31:24 you are in,
31:25 uh,
31:27 a,
31:27 a scholar,
31:28 and you've been arguing.
31:30 Uh,
31:30 quite adamantly,
31:32 uh,
31:33 that,
31:33 uh,
31:34 Africa needs to drastically increase investment in innovation,
31:38 uh,
31:38 in science and technology,
31:40 uh,
31:41 even,
31:42 uh,
31:43 controversially,
31:44 perhaps,
31:44 uh,
31:44 like you just said,
31:45 not following Western models,
31:46 uh,
31:47 and reinvent uh.
31:48 Uh,
31:49 the African,
31:51 uh,
31:51 contextualized,
31:52 uh,
31:53 models.
31:54 So,
31:54 uh,
31:55 can you,
31:55 uh,
31:55 would you kind of give us your,
31:58 your,
31:58 your wisdom on that?
31:59 Um,
31:59 yeah,
32:00 I mean,
32:00 uh,
32:01 first of all,
32:01 thanks for,
32:02 thanks so much for having me here.
32:04 Uh,
32:04 my perspective is
32:06 not only,
32:07 um,
32:08 informed by my research,
32:11 but also,
32:13 um,
32:14 By my experience as
32:17 academic entrepreneur,
32:18 you know,
32:18 I set up a university.
32:21 Uh,
32:21 about 11 years ago
32:23 that has been doing very well.
32:25 We just opened a research hub,
32:27 multidisciplinary in math,
32:30 geoscience,
32:31 biotech,
32:33 arts,
32:34 history,
32:34 and economics.
32:36 We also,
32:37 um,
32:37 very soon we start R&D driven startup
32:40 in agriculture and,
32:41 um,
32:42 ecotourism.
32:43 So,
32:44 um,
32:45 so that's,
32:46 that said,
32:47 Um,
32:49 I want to make 3 points.
32:50 The first one is that
32:53 Um,
32:54 Africa is way,
32:56 way behind where we need to be
32:58 in terms of
32:59 innovation.
33:01 The world average
33:02 is
33:04 Scientist is about
33:06 1,084.
33:09 Africa,
33:10 164.
33:14 We contribute to only 1.1% of the global.
33:20 Uh,
33:20 knowledge production.
33:23 This is very,
33:25 very,
33:25 very problematic for,
33:27 for two reasons.
33:28 The first one
33:29 is that
33:30 innovation is the driver of social progress,
33:35 not only because innovation helps productivity,
33:37 but also innovation
33:40 um
33:41 strengthens state capacity,
33:43 strengthen knowledge production.
33:45 Things,
33:46 so,
33:46 so what innovation does
33:49 is far more than the economic impact.
33:50 The social impact is huge.
33:53 And the second point is that if what we do is import technologies.
33:59 The,
33:59 there,
34:00 there is a current research showing that
34:04 in many,
34:04 particularly in agriculture,
34:06 uh,
34:06 uh technologies that have been imported are inadequate
34:09 and lead to 58%
34:12 loss in productivity.
34:14 So,
34:15 for the society for productivity,
34:17 it's important
34:19 that countries in Africa have agency,
34:23 develop local capacity in research.
34:27 Now,
34:27 um,
34:29 let me now come to,
34:30 uh,
34:31 uh,
34:31 what this can be addressed,
34:33 which is the question.
34:35 First of all,
34:36 I think um uh major boost
34:40 in
34:41 uh
34:42 research funding,
34:42 R&D
34:44 institutions,
34:45 for instance,
34:45 that will
34:47 push private sector to,
34:48 to,
34:48 to,
34:49 to,
34:49 to,
34:49 uh,
34:49 to invest more,
34:50 that's,
34:51 that's also very important.
34:53 But the second point,
34:55 I think it's um it's,
34:56 it's vital.
34:58 Is
34:59 um to.
35:01 Think carefully about
35:04 areas
35:05 of strength
35:06 that we can develop,
35:08 you know,
35:09 for instance,
35:10 agriculture,
35:11 medical research,
35:12 AI.
35:14 There are
35:15 massive,
35:16 um,
35:17 interest
35:18 in these sectors like Morocco in AI,
35:21 um,
35:22 Nigeria and South Africa in agriculture.
35:26 And a friend of mine
35:28 who,
35:29 you know,
35:29 a PhD in engineering set up a semiconductor.
35:33 A nanotechnology firm in Kenya,
35:36 very frontier.
35:37 This is the kind of ambition that we need.
35:40 Now,
35:40 to,
35:40 to finish,
35:41 I,
35:41 I'm also going to,
35:42 you know,
35:43 following my other colleagues um on,
35:45 on the panel,
35:46 the need for regional hubs for multilateralism in developing research capacity.
35:51 I can think,
35:52 for instance,
35:53 that
35:53 if we have
35:54 an university of Agriculture.
35:56 You know,
35:57 I mean,
35:57 the,
35:57 the University of Agriculture in uh Abeokuta,
36:00 Nigeria is 7th in the world according to the,
36:02 the,
36:02 the rankings,
36:03 7th.
36:04 We can see,
36:05 we can turn this,
36:07 this center into
36:09 an Africa-wide or at least regional center
36:12 where there are pipelines of talented,
36:15 you know,
36:15 scientists coming from all over West Africa
36:18 to join
36:19 so that
36:20 we can move,
36:20 they,
36:21 they,
36:21 they,
36:21 they,
36:21 they,
36:21 they can move up,
36:22 you know.
36:22 So I think those are
36:24 areas that I think uh
36:26 Uh,
36:26 we can,
36:27 uh,
36:28 you know,
36:29 address forcefully,
36:30 uh,
36:30 to close the gap that currently exists
36:33 between,
36:33 uh,
36:34 Africa and the rest of the world.
36:36 Thank you.
36:37 Thanks,
36:37 uh,
36:38 Leonardo yo.
36:41 Your turn.
36:42 So
36:43 back to my corner,
36:44 agriculture,
36:46 uh,
36:48 so some colleague of nobody can deny
36:51 the importance of agriculture on the continent,
36:53 whether it's for,
36:54 uh,
36:54 job creation,
36:55 uh,
36:56 potentially for growth,
36:57 although it's not delivered on that front,
36:59 and,
37:00 uh,
37:00 some of your colleagues actually called that the sleeping giant,
37:04 uh,
37:04 agriculture is a sleeping giant when it comes to.
37:07 Uh,
37:08 inclusive growth and job creation.
37:10 What will it take to wake up this giant,
37:12 and why we haven't been able to wake it up?
37:16 Um,
37:17 thanks Giro,
37:18 and
37:19 I had a list of 1000 points to answer,
37:22 but in the speed dating I will probably have to focus on one or two.
37:26 The um
37:28 just on terms of the,
37:30 the issue,
37:31 OK,
37:32 I mean Africa is now the place where food security or food insecurity in the world is
37:38 concentrated and it has gone up very significantly over
37:40 the last decades with food insecurity and malnutrition.
37:45 If we talk there was a lot of discussion over the past today on the demographics,
37:49 OK,
37:49 and so how linked to migration,
37:51 I think there again also agriculture and rural areas play a very important role.
37:56 And the third point,
37:57 which kind of comes up back in various places but it hasn't been dealt with in detail,
38:01 I think,
38:02 but it's so crucial,
38:04 it's the issue of conflict and fragility of states
38:07 and we see that the growth of acute insecurity,
38:09 which has actually
38:11 grown exponentially over the last decade,
38:13 is very strongly correlated with the fragility issue and again very
38:16 disproportionately located in Africa.
38:19 And so the issue of course how agricultural growth can
38:23 can contribute with lessening that of make the situation better.
38:28 I think they are the point which Leonard has already emphasized very strongly,
38:32 I think the innovation and the productivity growth is crucial.
38:36 Of course,
38:37 I mean this is all within the sustainability framework,
38:39 but if you look globally right now,
38:41 OK,
38:41 Africa is lagging behind the rest of the
38:44 world in productivity growth in agriculture in almost
38:47 incredible way.
38:48 I mean the average,
38:50 if you look at average output growth per year in the world is about 3%,
38:54 OK.
38:54 Across the world,
38:55 about 60 to 70% of that is productivity growth and 30% is input growth.
39:02 In developing countries it's 50/50.
39:03 In Africa it's 10 to 90%,
39:06 so only 10%,
39:07 so that has to change,
39:08 OK,
39:09 and in a number of ways that we kind of know how to do it,
39:13 it's just theoretically at least the issue is how
39:16 to implement it and how to make it happen.
39:19 I think one of the areas is clearly investments in innovation,
39:23 research and development.
39:25 We have seen in areas which have done
39:27 much better that has been very significant investment,
39:30 particularly,
39:30 I mean China stands out,
39:31 but also India,
39:33 other regions.
39:34 In Africa,
39:35 if you look at government expenditures on agriculture,
39:38 they have actually gone up by 50% in real terms over the past 20 years,
39:43 but all the growth has been in subsidies in fertilizer subsidies,
39:47 etc.
39:48 If you look at R&D investments,
39:49 it's flat,
39:50 there has been no growth,
39:51 so I think that really has to change.
39:54 Um,
39:54 I think also we've been talking about the role of trade here.
39:58 I would open it up even to the role of exchange if you want,
40:02 the value exchange both domestically
40:05 and intra-Africa and outside of Africa and some of the problems that we have in,
40:10 in the international trades are just as well problems in domestic trade.
40:15 Things like infrastructure,
40:17 safety,
40:18 quality standards,
40:19 institutional constraints,
40:20 etc.
40:21 so they affect the entire value chain development,
40:24 not just the trade
40:26 and of course on the trade issues,
40:27 some of the other issues which
40:29 were already mentioned reinforce this thing.
40:32 I think there is a difference this time,
40:34 there is a number of factors which hopefully
40:38 will contribute to making it different.
40:40 OK.
40:41 One is I think despite the points that Leonard said,
40:44 I think the capacity in Africa in a number of
40:47 ways has increased significantly over the last 20 years.
40:51 If I look at my own institution,
40:53 for example,
40:53 we work much more with local organizations
40:56 with analysis and studies inside the countries and
41:00 Uh we did 20 years ago
41:03 and I know that's in various other organizations as well.
41:06 There has been significant urbanization and income growth,
41:09 middle class income growth in Africa,
41:11 and that will create a demand side for the development of food production
41:16 which will we know triggers down in in most cases to actually the production side,
41:21 productivity,
41:23 access to both markets and uh and inputs.
41:27 I think there's also been a number of cases where if
41:30 you look at fruit and vegetable exports from Africa to Europe,
41:33 for example,
41:34 that has grown very significantly over the last 20 years again
41:37 and again there I think this can be a model for going forward and
41:41 there has been what people like Chris Barrett and Tom Reardan have called the
41:46 value chain revolutions,
41:47 OK,
41:47 with a lot of investments actually in the upstream
41:50 parts of the value chain which triggered down in terms of information provision,
41:55 technology,
41:55 finance,
41:56 etc.
41:57 In my last point of what may be different is I was struck in a couple of months
42:03 ago when the time of the World Bank IMF spring meetings we had an event at IFPRI,
42:08 my institution where we invited a number of African leaders there.
42:12 Their attitude to what was going on in Washington
42:15 was very different than the people based in Washington.
42:18 It was much more,
42:18 OK,
42:19 this is a crisis,
42:20 we are going through so many crises,
42:21 yet another one,
42:22 but we can deal with it,
42:23 OK,
42:24 just another one.
42:25 So it was much more a we can do thing.
42:28 And I think that links strongly in points which were made yesterday very strongly,
42:32 I think,
42:32 and also this morning by Bob Solo
42:34 in terms of ownership and own leadership
42:36 and becoming a partner in the development framework
42:39 and so hopefully this can be another step in actually making that work.
42:45 Yes,
42:45 please.
42:48 You know,
42:48 I think that the dynamic from my perspective,
42:52 having
42:53 worked to establish about 4 or 5
42:56 farms in Nigeria with an entity called Songhai,
43:02 is that the challenges that I think still currently exist
43:07 are really within the ministries of agriculture to a great extent
43:12 on the continent.
43:13 Um,
43:14 not only having the capacity to not only look at
43:17 implementation,
43:18 infrastructure,
43:19 uh,
43:20 value chain,
43:20 all of those kinds of things,
43:22 but also to encourage the next generation or the
43:27 current generation to be more involved in agricultural production.
43:30 And also
43:32 looking at agriculture as a means to have job creation.
43:36 I don't think that there is,
43:37 at least my experience,
43:39 uh,
43:39 both living on the continent and working with
43:42 a number of,
43:42 uh,
43:42 standing up a number of farms over,
43:45 over time.
43:46 Is that you don't have a continuity from one transition government to
43:51 another in terms of what agricultural policy is going to be.
43:54 Sometimes the tariff barriers within a country,
43:57 whether you can get an export license to even export
44:00 your produce,
44:01 that's,
44:01 that's a challenge.
44:03 Um,
44:04 the,
44:05 the use of technology we were doing almost 10 years ago where we were doing,
44:09 um.
44:10 Um,
44:11 3D printing of spare parts for agricultural machinery,
44:15 all those kinds of things,
44:16 but then that happens and then the next government
44:19 will come in and all of those things stop.
44:21 So you have this
44:22 challenge,
44:23 uh,
44:23 on the continent writ large.
44:26 Uh,
44:26 I think,
44:26 uh,
44:27 you know,
44:27 ministries of agriculture,
44:28 maybe it's from a continental perspective,
44:30 maybe it's going to be a regional perspective,
44:32 really need to look at those connections
44:34 in order to be successful.
44:36 And I guess the other part is,
44:38 is the financing.
44:39 You know,
44:40 financing does play a part in agricultural production.
44:44 So whether subsidies are part of that or whether something else is part of that,
44:48 I think that,
44:48 you know,
44:49 really seeing the struggles
44:51 uh that I've viewed over the years with farmers trying
44:54 to not only maintain their small farms or even cooperatives
44:59 uh runs across the gamut from not only
45:01 financing but support from their ministries of.
45:04 Agriculture
45:06 now is exacerbated by climate change,
45:09 and so I think that there's a whole range of things and,
45:12 and certainly,
45:14 you know,
45:14 the,
45:15 the role that agriculture can play across the economic spectrum,
45:19 including job creation and the things that were mentioned by my colleague
45:22 here are really key.
45:25 Thank you.
45:26 Uh,
45:27 so,
45:28 I'm running out of time.
45:30 Uh,
45:31 so,
45:33 As part of the second objective,
45:34 uh,
45:35 to kind of place,
45:36 uh,
45:36 agora in this discussion,
45:38 so I'm gonna
45:40 go to Matteo for 2 minutes.
45:42 Uh,
45:44 Agora is meant to forge a partnership between
45:46 North and South to support this partnership.
45:48 I wanna hear you in 2 minutes
45:50 the northern view
45:52 and,
45:52 uh,
45:52 from Leonard,
45:53 the southern view why agora
45:56 is important
45:57 or is not.
45:58 So I'm,
45:59 I'm not,
45:59 uh.
46:00 Uh,
46:00 I'm the self-promoter,
46:02 but,
46:02 uh,
46:02 you can have a different view.
46:04 So tell us why Agora in this moment,
46:07 uh,
46:07 with what,
46:08 uh,
46:08 is trying to achieve,
46:10 it becomes important in this conversation and,
46:13 uh,
46:13 and to move the agenda forward.
46:15 Thank you,
46:16 Giro,
46:16 and let me apologize in advance because as Gerro said,
46:19 I have to leave in,
46:20 in,
46:20 in a few minutes.
46:21 Uh,
46:22 I'm a supporter of Agora,
46:24 if uh if this is the,
46:25 the,
46:25 the,
46:25 the easy and uh short answer,
46:28 not only because,
46:29 uh,
46:29 Sicily is a fantastic place and uh the,
46:32 the Sicilian cuisine is my,
46:34 my,
46:34 my favorite,
46:35 but
46:36 because,
46:36 I mean,
46:36 the principle as you described,
46:38 the,
46:38 the described the principles and the,
46:40 the underlying philo philosophy of agora is very similar to what I described.
46:44 Earlier with the Matthei plan actually was inspired by the Matthei plan,
46:48 so the joint responsibility,
46:49 the co-creation,
46:50 and so on.
46:51 Let me just take one perspective why I believe that Argora
46:55 can really add to the discussion we are having here.
46:58 And which is I would like to focus on knowledge
47:01 in a sense what Agora is doing is to complementing
47:04 the project level approach that I was saying before.
47:08 We know that the World Bank
47:10 Group,
47:10 the World Bank,
47:11 is not a traditional bank,
47:12 it's a knowledge bank,
47:13 and this is very important because
47:15 Uh,
47:16 what makes really the bank unique is the fact that we bring knowledge,
47:19 uh,
47:20 alongside,
47:21 uh,
47:21 financing.
47:22 And so
47:22 I believe that Agora can give a lot in,
47:24 in that dimension,
47:26 and,
47:26 uh,
47:26 let me just mention very quickly
47:28 few perspective.
47:29 The first one is obviously this is an institution
47:32 that is a champion in,
47:33 in,
47:34 uh,
47:34 generating and diff and uh and knowledge creation and generation and diffusion,
47:38 let's say.
47:39 And so the idea of agora is very simple.
47:42 There.
47:42 It's just to connecting field experts,
47:44 researchers,
47:45 policymakers,
47:46 and think tanks from Africa,
47:48 Europe,
47:49 Italy,
47:49 multilateral institutions,
47:51 and so on and so on to favor this knowledge
47:54 exchange that can be useful to raise productivity or any other
47:57 priority that we mentioned.
47:59 The second point
48:00 is that given that again we are at the World Bank here,
48:03 it's not just a matter of knowledge,
48:04 but it's the operationalization of knowledge.
48:06 So bringing knowledge
48:07 into
48:08 Uh,
48:09 project or operations just in a,
48:11 in a,
48:11 in a sense to make
48:12 res any research and analytical output
48:15 into project and operation,
48:17 uh,
48:17 of,
48:18 uh,
48:18 of the World Bank.
48:19 And as an economist,
48:20 I mean,
48:21 I can simply actually at an uh an empirical economist.
48:24 I should say that,
48:25 uh,
48:25 uh,
48:26 you know,
48:26 data research,
48:27 economic analysis are the foundation of good policy making and so we need,
48:31 we definitely need,
48:32 uh,
48:32 um.
48:33 This
48:34 and the third point is that this knowledge is also useful to
48:38 build capacity in the client countries because we can provide advice,
48:42 we can provide financing,
48:44 but then if there is no capacity in terms of implementation
48:47 on the side of the clients,
48:48 then you don't get results and impact and so again Agora.
48:52 I understand that it's exactly doing that.
48:55 Uh,
48:55 I mean building institutional capacity,
48:57 skill,
48:58 and capacity to stay there because the,
49:00 the idea will be not
49:01 just to attach knowledge and capacity whenever there is a project,
49:04 but to leave capacity
49:06 on the ground.
49:07 And the very last point is also the connection with the private sector again.
49:11 And so there is knowledge for,
49:13 for,
49:13 uh,
49:14 uh,
49:14 you know,
49:14 designing.
49:15 Uh,
49:16 business solution and this requires to connect the academia,
49:19 policymakers,
49:20 think tanks
49:21 with small and medium sized enterprises
49:23 in Africa.
49:24 So all these components to me are the real value added of Agora.
49:28 Thank you,
49:29 Leonard.
49:30 Yes,
49:30 so,
49:31 um,
49:31 in fact,
49:32 uh,
49:32 one of the less known
49:34 Africa Italian
49:36 Italy connection is the Institute for Theoretical Physics in Trieste
49:40 that was set up by Abdul Salam.
49:43 And
49:44 but he had never been
49:47 a stronger champion for science and technology in Africa than Abdul Salam.
49:51 So he,
49:52 he,
49:53 he came to Benin and set up an institute of Mathematics and physics.
49:57 He went to Congo to give
49:59 a speech to
50:02 Undergraduate students about the value of science.
50:05 Many of those students now are top around the world in in science.
50:10 So
50:11 what I would strongly
50:13 recommend is that this is also an Africa Italy summit
50:18 in science and technology.
50:21 And so we need
50:23 all those,
50:24 um,
50:25 you know,
50:26 like scientists and social scientists,
50:28 uh,
50:28 natural scientists in Africa
50:30 to be represented.
50:31 There are a lot of association,
50:32 you know,
50:32 uh,
50:33 for instance,
50:34 I attended the association or the,
50:36 the Congress of uh African Material Science Association in,
50:39 in Kigali.
50:41 So,
50:41 and then on top of it,
50:43 I think it's also,
50:45 uh,
50:45 important that we develop collaboration.
50:47 Not
50:48 state to state or
50:50 Italy,
50:50 Africa per se,
50:51 in general,
50:52 but also between
50:53 uh between scientists around projects and
50:56 so this for me is what is important to finish,
51:00 I would like to,
51:01 to,
51:01 to,
51:01 to,
51:02 I think that it's important
51:04 not just to push for entrepreneurship,
51:07 but educated entrepreneurship.
51:09 So we need
51:10 entrepreneurs
51:12 who are highly educated,
51:13 and I'm not saying that every one of them,
51:15 but at least
51:16 A critical mass of highly educated entrepreneurs
51:19 so that
51:20 they can
51:21 push
51:22 for innovation
51:23 while trying to prosper
51:25 economically.
51:25 Thank you.
51:27 Thank you Leonard.
51:28 Yes,
51:28 no,
51:28 no,
51:29 please,
51:30 thank you.
51:30 Thank you very much.
51:31 uh,
51:32 anyway,
51:32 I'm pushing my luck here.
51:33 I'm standing between you and lunch,
51:35 so I think I will,
51:37 uh,
51:38 uh,
51:38 stop here.
51:39 My pledge is,
51:40 uh,
51:41 I'll promise,
51:41 uh,
51:42 I'll give you a lot of time in Palermo if you decide to come,
51:45 uh,
51:46 not only for,
51:47 uh,
51:47 for dinner,
51:48 but,
51:48 uh,
51:49 also for having a much,
51:51 uh,
51:51 longer and,
51:52 uh,
51:52 uh,
51:53 in depth discussion and some of those issues.
51:56 And I apologize,
51:57 I don't think we have time unless the organizers tell me that I can
52:02 take one or two questions.
52:05 Uh,
52:06 is there
52:07 any burning question?
52:09 Uh,
52:10 I think like,
52:11 yeah,
52:11 the growl in your stomach is probably,
52:13 uh,
52:13 yes,
52:14 OK,
52:15 just,
52:15 uh,
52:16 bear with us.
52:19 Hi,
52:19 I'll keep it short.
52:21 Um,
52:21 one point that was brought up yesterday by Professor Danny Ku was that
52:25 the elimination of catastrophic risks can be used
52:29 to address some of the market failures.
52:31 So
52:32 in your opinion,
52:33 um,
52:34 what challenges on the African continent do you think are the most ripe
52:38 for,
52:38 um,
52:40 this type of solution?
52:43 OK,
52:43 and that's the 2nd and last question,
52:45 and then we'll,
52:47 uh,
52:47 we'll move on.
52:48 Hi,
52:48 yeah,
52:48 I'll make it short.
52:49 Um,
52:50 I was wondering about your thoughts on the role of the diaspora
52:54 in bringing some of this human capital,
52:56 um,
52:56 financial resources networks back to the continent as well.
52:59 Thank you.
53:01 Anybody mindset to pick up the
53:04 Please.
53:08 Thank you for raising the role of the diaspora,
53:10 uh,
53:11 on the continent.
53:11 I think it's,
53:12 it's fundamental and key,
53:14 uh,
53:15 in so many ways,
53:16 not just in the,
53:17 the areas that we've talked about today,
53:19 but certainly across the board.
53:21 Um,
53:21 the
53:22 dynamism that I see from the African diaspora,
53:25 uh,
53:26 in terms of connecting,
53:28 uh,
53:28 not only on the business front but on research development on technology.
53:32 Uh,
53:32 is extremely impressive
53:34 and in fact,
53:35 um,
53:35 I think that the,
53:37 at least from the US perspective,
53:38 I think that the,
53:40 the efforts of the Africa diaspora has,
53:42 has,
53:43 has encouraged
53:45 the US to focus on
53:47 Africa has been,
53:49 is commendable
53:50 and so I do think for a lot of
53:52 the development areas for financing that you've talked about,
53:55 there are a lot of diaspora uh businesses that I work with as a consultant.
54:00 That are doing a tremendous amount not only on financing but using technology,
54:05 uh,
54:05 in the sectors that we've talked about from agriculture to um
54:10 manufacturing centers,
54:12 uh,
54:13 uh,
54:13 to,
54:14 to farming,
54:15 um,
54:15 so I think that diaspora,
54:17 uh,
54:17 at least the diaspora that's here in the United States is fundamental to
54:22 ensuring that we have this,
54:24 uh,
54:24 US Africa relationship that I talked about earlier,
54:27 not just in trade but across the board in a number of areas.
54:31 Andrew,
54:32 would you like to pick the,
54:33 um,
54:34 so,
54:34 so one of the,
54:35 one of the impediments to actually creating kind of robust
54:40 dynamic
54:41 economies.
54:44 With large companies that want to enter and with production hubs
54:50 and networked
54:51 firms
54:52 is this particular issue about risk
54:54 in the continent and there are several risks that can be catastrophic for firms.
55:00 One of them is just basic production risk,
55:04 um,
55:04 so that's one thing you,
55:05 you know,
55:05 if there's a lot of market,
55:07 you know,
55:08 insurance markets that exist to,
55:10 to ensure that,
55:11 that would be good.
55:12 Political risk
55:13 is very,
55:14 is very common and,
55:15 and,
55:16 you know,
55:17 government changing,
55:18 they change policies,
55:19 they,
55:20 they,
55:20 the countries go into conflict.
55:23 And production risks particularly will be
55:25 important in agriculture but everywhere else.
55:27 And then the final one is trade risk.
55:30 There are a lot of trade disruptions,
55:33 you know,
55:34 across the board,
55:35 right?
55:36 You know,
55:36 you can build a great highway
55:38 or railway,
55:39 but then you arrive at the border and you can't go through and all kinds of things,
55:42 right?
55:42 So,
55:43 so there are all kinds of risks
55:45 along the value chains and along the production chains which can be,
55:48 can be insured that will be helpful for,
55:50 for entrepreneurs.
55:54 It's uh I'm afraid that we need to stop.
55:57 I'm,
55:57 I'm I was kind of wondering whether it's the glucose
56:00 level is so low that you cannot get up.
56:03 So that's why you haven't left the room.
56:04 But I will stop there.
56:06 Let me thank again the,
56:08 and I think that deserve a round of applause,
56:10 uh,
56:11 but
56:12 And uh,
56:15 Thank
56:16 thank you everybody for coming,
56:18 everybody who's connected online,
56:19 uh thank you panelist thank you.
56:22 Go to now have 30 minute
56:24 uh lunch break.
56:24 Lunch is served on both sides uh in the overflow areas.
56:30 So we should be back at 2 o'clock.
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A video recording of the Session 5 on Day 2 of The Annual Bank Conference on Development Economics 2025 "Development in the Age of Populism." This session discusses "Africa Growth and Opportunity".
CHAIR: Gero Carletto, Senior Manager in the Development Data Group at the World Bank
PANELISTS:
- Matteo Bugamelli, Executive Director, World Bank
- Andrew Dabalen, Chief Economist of the World Bank's Africa Region
- Amb. Robin Renee Sanders, CEO of FEEEDS & FE3DS and Former U.S. Ambassador to Nigeria and the Republic of the Congo
- Johan Swinnen, Director General of the International Food Policy Research Institute
- Leonard Wantchekon, James Madison Professor of Political Economy at Princeton University