00:00 Welcome everybody,
00:01 uh,
00:01 to the World Development Report
00:03 2025 Standards for Development seminar series.
00:09 Today,
00:09 we're gonna be talking about um
00:12 private food safety standards with uh Spencer Henson,
00:17 who's a professor
00:18 at the University of Guelph in Canada
00:21 and uh has been working in the issue of food standards for
00:25 For decades now and he's one of the,
00:27 the main specialists
00:29 on,
00:29 on the subject and um
00:32 He's gonna do a 30 minute presentation
00:34 focusing on,
00:35 on the proliferation of these private food standards and what it means
00:39 in terms of the governance,
00:41 but also
00:42 on extrapolating
00:44 perhaps to to sustainability standards as well.
00:46 What are,
00:47 what are the lessons.
00:48 So
00:49 over to you,
00:50 Spencer,
00:51 um,
00:51 we'll have a Q&A
00:53 session after he,
00:54 he finishes.
00:56 Um,
00:57 so keep your,
00:57 your questions unless there is something that is,
00:59 is really pressing
01:01 that you need clarification.
01:02 Over to you,
01:03 Spencer.
01:04 Fabulous.
01:05 Thanks so much,
01:06 Chavi,
01:06 and um if there are any fellow Canadians on,
01:09 then happy Canada Day.
01:11 Um,
01:13 let me share my screen.
01:16 OK,
01:17 you can see that OK?
01:21 Yes,
01:22 so you may want to maximize.
01:23 There we go.
01:24 All right,
01:24 wonderful.
01:26 So,
01:27 I am going to talk to you about um the.
01:33 The,
01:34 the nature,
01:34 the evolution,
01:36 etc.
01:37 of private food safety standards,
01:40 um,
01:41 in the context of the agri-food system,
01:43 but particularly with a focus on,
01:46 on food safety.
01:47 This is something that,
01:49 as Chavia said,
01:49 I've worked on for a long time,
01:51 so
01:52 I will try and keep it to 30 minutes cos it's something I can
01:56 talk about for hours,
01:58 um.
01:59 This is an area that is of interest to,
02:04 to many people,
02:05 um,
02:06 not those that are just interested in food safety,
02:09 because in the context of food safety,
02:11 private standards have emerged
02:14 as a dominant mechanism,
02:16 um,
02:16 for governance in,
02:18 uh,
02:19 agri-food value chains in high income countries,
02:23 but also globally.
02:24 Um,
02:25 and the evolution of private food safety standards has
02:29 raised a lot of questions about the role,
02:32 uh,
02:32 of private standards in terms of,
02:36 uh,
02:36 governance of,
02:37 um,
02:38 of,
02:39 of agri-food systems.
02:40 So for example,
02:42 uh,
02:42 whether they allow high levels of food safety to be achieved.
02:45 Um,
02:47 uh,
02:47 with greater efficiency and greater effectiveness,
02:50 um,
02:50 but at the same time,
02:52 there are a lot of concerns about their wider implications,
02:56 implications for the role of the state,
02:58 for democracy,
02:59 uh,
02:59 impacts on power,
03:01 um,
03:02 competitiveness in agri-food value chains,
03:05 uh,
03:05 etc.
03:06 And
03:07 there's a lot of debate over whether
03:10 the lessons from food safety can be
03:13 um
03:14 can,
03:15 can,
03:15 can be applied in,
03:17 in,
03:17 in other contexts,
03:19 so in low and middle income countries,
03:21 for issues like sustainability,
03:24 um,
03:25 etc.
03:26 cos there is no doubt that private food
03:28 standards have emerged as a dominant mechanism for,
03:32 for governance,
03:33 um.
03:34 Uh,
03:34 and,
03:34 um,
03:35 so we're gonna be looking at some of those issues,
03:38 uh,
03:38 in,
03:38 in,
03:39 in this seminar.
03:44 Um,
03:44 some of the key questions that I
03:47 want to address,
03:48 um,
03:49 are,
03:50 you know,
03:50 why did private food standards develop in the first place,
03:54 and what roles do they play?
03:57 Um,
03:58 and
03:59 what are the implications and what are
04:01 the intersections between food safety standards,
04:05 private food safety standards,
04:07 and regulations?
04:09 And then think about the implications,
04:11 the implications for
04:14 something that developed predominantly in high income countries,
04:18 for lower and middle income countries,
04:20 and for
04:21 sustainability and,
04:23 and potentially other
04:24 um er aspects of the performance of um of the agrifood system.
04:33 First of all,
04:34 what are we talking about?
04:35 Well,
04:36 private food safety standards are
04:38 entities of um governance that are elaborated by non-state actors.
04:46 Now those non-state actors can be for-profit entities
04:50 or not for profit entities,
04:52 we,
04:52 we see a variety.
04:54 They're non-regulatory in,
04:56 in,
04:56 in their nature,
04:57 so that means that
04:58 they do not have the force of the state behind them.
05:02 That can compel
05:03 compliance,
05:05 but that does not mean that in the realities of life,
05:09 they are not de facto mandatory.
05:12 In fact,
05:13 they have um emerged as a mechanism
05:17 of um of what is called private governance.
05:21 They are,
05:21 I would argue,
05:22 they're not a mechanism of self-regulation,
05:26 so,
05:26 so,
05:27 you know,
05:28 food processing enterprises,
05:30 adopting these standards,
05:32 applying these standards to regulate themselves.
05:35 They are actually compelled
05:37 to
05:38 um comply with these um
05:41 private standards by their customers.
05:44 So they're actually a mechanism of private governance,
05:46 and they're actually operationalized within a
05:49 system of private contractual relations,
05:52 that is,
05:53 is,
05:54 is highly complex in,
05:55 in nature.
05:58 So
05:58 to give you,
05:59 so this is the sort of setup that we see,
06:02 and I'm gonna use the example of Global GAP.
06:04 Global GAP
06:05 may be a standard that you have heard of,
06:08 it is a,
06:09 the most widely applied global standard for good agricultural practice.
06:14 Um,
06:15 currently around 190,000 farmers across the world
06:20 are,
06:21 um,
06:21 certified,
06:22 comply with the global gap standards.
06:25 Global GAP,
06:26 that is the standard setter,
06:29 has contractual relations with 193 certification bodies,
06:34 totally independent of Global GP
06:37 around the world,
06:38 and it is these bodies
06:40 that
06:41 uh undertake certification
06:43 of farmers.
06:46 Now,
06:46 the farmers themselves have to comply
06:50 because they're required to be certified
06:53 by their buyers,
06:54 predominantly large supermarket chains,
06:57 um,
06:58 food service,
06:59 um chains,
07:00 etc.
07:01 around the world,
07:01 and,
07:02 and also some um food processors.
07:05 The certification bodies
07:08 uh are essentially charged
07:11 uh to,
07:11 with the task of certifying farmers,
07:15 but they themselves have to be accredited.
07:18 Uh,
07:18 and there is a whole mechanism,
07:20 again,
07:21 forms of contractual.
07:22 Relation
07:23 to make sure that these er certification bodies uh are robust,
07:28 and so we have this complex system,
07:30 essentially of contractual relations,
07:33 um,
07:33 that underlie
07:35 this,
07:35 this,
07:35 this system of,
07:36 of,
07:37 of uh private standards.
07:42 Now we see a variety of private food safety standards um
07:47 existing.
07:49 And what is interesting about the whole system is that it's highly dynamic,
07:55 um,
07:55 and essentially we have this marketplace of,
07:59 of food safety standards.
08:00 So these standards in many ways compete against one another.
08:05 We can have individual business standards,
08:07 so we could have,
08:08 for example,
08:09 Tesco,
08:09 one of the,
08:10 the largest food,
08:11 um,
08:12 um,
08:13 retailers in the UK.
08:14 It has its own,
08:16 um,
08:17 food safety standard for,
08:19 um,
08:20 a sub-brand called Nature's Choice.
08:22 Um,
08:23 it has established it itself and applies it,
08:27 requires,
08:28 um,
08:28 um,
08:29 certification amongst its suppliers.
08:32 We can also have collective standards,
08:35 they can be national in focus,
08:38 so using the UK as an example,
08:40 there's a,
08:41 there are a set of standards called um assured food standards,
08:45 again for farmers
08:47 that are established through um involving retailers and,
08:52 and representatives of the agricultural sector
08:54 that applied nationally within the UK.
08:58 We can also have collective standards that are international in focus.
09:02 For example,
09:03 uh,
09:04 International Features Standard,
09:06 is,
09:06 is,
09:06 is an organization
09:08 that essentially represents,
09:10 um,
09:11 supermarket chains in Germany and in France.
09:14 Global Gap would be another example of
09:18 uh a collective standards that are applied internationally.
09:22 And so we have this,
09:23 this,
09:24 this,
09:24 this terrain
09:26 uh of,
09:27 of standards
09:28 that er are in place to govern food safety in food processing,
09:33 in um in,
09:34 in agriculture,
09:35 etc.
09:36 and it's dynamic and competitive er in,
09:39 in nature.
09:43 So,
09:44 I said,
09:45 190,000 farmers across the world are certified to Global GAP,
09:50 around 100,000
09:52 food processing establishments
09:55 are certified to the top five or six
09:59 food safety standards for,
10:01 for processing.
10:02 Why did these things emerge?
10:05 Well,
10:06 you could spend hours in the,
10:08 on looking at this story,
10:10 but essentially,
10:12 it is,
10:12 they have emerged because of a complex interaction,
10:17 uh interplay
10:18 between a a variety of factors.
10:22 Undoubtedly,
10:23 there have been at times quite prominent
10:26 failures in terms of food safety that have raised concerns,
10:30 issues around the robustness of regulations.
10:34 That's raised concerns amongst consumers,
10:36 so the consumers have had heightened interest and,
10:40 and,
10:40 and worries about the the safety of the food they buy.
10:44 This has induced regulatory reform,
10:47 so this is the role of the state.
10:50 Uh,
10:51 stricter food safety requirements,
10:53 um,
10:53 new liability laws,
10:55 new requirements in terms of,
10:58 um,
10:58 of food suppliers being proactive in,
11:01 in ensuring the food that they,
11:03 that they supply is safe.
11:06 But
11:07 At the same time,
11:09 there has been the growing consolidation
11:11 and globalization of agri agrifood systems,
11:14 major food retailers selling
11:17 um er foods under their own brands,
11:20 and this has meant that the regulatory reforms have induced actions on the part of,
11:26 of dominant players within the agrifood um
11:30 system,
11:31 what are often called lead firms.
11:33 That,
11:34 that have led them to
11:36 um
11:37 induce
11:38 the development of,
11:40 of,
11:40 of private um food safety standards.
11:43 So we have this complex interplayer of
11:47 a,
11:47 a whole variety of factors,
11:49 um,
11:50 that has led to the evolution of private food standards,
11:54 um,
11:55 er for food safety as a key er form of governance.
12:00 Now these standards themselves,
12:03 um,
12:04 have evolved over time,
12:06 um.
12:08 So initially,
12:09 what we saw was,
12:10 for example,
12:11 food retailers would say,
12:13 OK,
12:14 if you're a food processor,
12:16 you wanna supply us,
12:17 these are the things you have to do
12:20 before
12:20 we're gonna buy from you.
12:22 Go away,
12:23 these,
12:24 this is our standard.
12:26 And tell us when you've complied.
12:29 Now,
12:29 that self-certification by processors,
12:32 um,
12:33 you know,
12:33 it,
12:34 um,
12:35 well,
12:35 was OK,
12:36 but it didn't give retailers,
12:38 for example,
12:39 the level of assurance they needed.
12:42 So that then led to the evolution of what is called second party standards.
12:46 So the retailers,
12:47 for example,
12:48 began to inspect their suppliers themselves.
12:51 So they would have their standards,
12:53 they would go to their,
12:54 their,
12:54 their suppliers or potential suppliers and check.
12:58 But of course that imposed huge costs on,
13:02 on retailers,
13:03 for example.
13:04 So the retailers got together and then they said,
13:07 well.
13:08 Why don't we
13:10 look at the,
13:11 the establishment of standards that,
13:14 um,
13:14 we,
13:14 we all are happy with,
13:16 that we all,
13:17 um,
13:18 it,
13:18 it would,
13:18 they all meet our requirements,
13:20 and what we will say to our suppliers is
13:23 get somebody
13:25 else to check
13:26 that you,
13:27 that you comply with these standards,
13:29 so.
13:30 Go to somebody else who will audit you
13:32 and will,
13:33 will confirm
13:35 that you actually do meet these requirements.
13:38 And then that led
13:39 to the,
13:41 finally,
13:41 the establishment of what are called third party assurance schemes,
13:45 like the contractual relation that I showed you earlier,
13:49 essentially where we had a system
13:51 where,
13:52 Um,
13:53 there were,
13:54 um,
13:55 third parties were setting food safety,
13:57 uh,
13:57 private food safety standards.
14:00 They had contractual relations with organizations that would certify and audit,
14:05 etc.
14:06 and that's
14:07 the predominant form that we see today.
14:09 That does not mean that these other forms have,
14:13 have,
14:13 have died.
14:14 They haven't.
14:15 There are,
14:16 is still interplays between these,
14:19 between these,
14:19 these different entities.
14:25 So what role do private food standards play?
14:28 I would argue
14:30 that
14:31 they have two
14:33 potentially important functions.
14:35 One is risk management,
14:37 that is
14:38 assuring,
14:39 for example,
14:40 food retailers that the farmers they buy from,
14:43 the food processors they buy from,
14:45 um,
14:46 have robust food safety controls,
14:49 so that
14:50 there are not going to be,
14:51 you know,
14:51 outbreaks of foodborne illness,
14:53 and,
14:55 And or
14:56 um instances of regulatory non-compliance,
14:59 so they have a risk management function.
15:03 And then they have potentially a product differentiation
15:06 function,
15:07 which we see
15:08 in areas outside of food safety.
15:12 Now I would argue that what you've seen predominantly in the realm of food safety is
15:18 minimal
15:19 product differentiation.
15:21 In fact,
15:21 for most private food safety standards,
15:24 you are not allowed
15:25 to even label a product
15:27 that
15:28 that has been produced under conditions that comply with these standards,
15:32 but they're really about
15:34 risk management.
15:36 And for lead firms,
15:39 dominant firms within agri-food,
15:42 um,
15:43 systems,
15:44 when it comes to food safety,
15:46 they essentially,
15:48 um,
15:49 are trying to balance,
15:52 Achieving an appropriate level of risk management,
15:55 that is appropriate level of
15:58 assurance against food safety
16:00 failures
16:01 and cost.
16:04 You know,
16:05 it could well be that the highest level of assurance would be
16:09 achieved when a lead firm is going to check that its suppliers.
16:14 Meet its food safety requirements,
16:16 but that's expensive,
16:17 so it's about a balance between cost
16:21 and risk management,
16:22 and,
16:22 and the whole system
16:24 is really about
16:26 achieving an appropriate balance for particular buyers,
16:31 dominant buyers
16:32 within
16:33 the agrifood system.
16:35 That's really
16:36 what this whole system
16:38 is about.
16:43 Now,
16:45 This has led
16:47 to a lot of very active debates um
16:51 and concerns about
16:54 where does this leave regulations,
16:56 where does this leave international standards.
16:59 If these private food safety standards have become
17:02 so
17:03 pervasive.
17:05 What is the remaining role of regulators in,
17:08 in,
17:08 in national er contexts where private food safety standards uh
17:13 uh have been adopted so widely,
17:15 where this certification is,
17:17 is so widespread?
17:18 What is the role of Codex standards,
17:20 of other standards in terms of
17:22 um of,
17:23 of
17:24 governing food safety?
17:28 How you have to see
17:30 private food safety standards
17:32 is as part of an overall regulatory regime.
17:38 And there are complex interplays between regulations,
17:42 international standards,
17:43 and private food safety standards.
17:45 So for example,
17:46 private food safety standards,
17:48 I would argue,
17:49 have been a response to
17:52 food safety regulations.
17:55 At the same time,
17:57 regulators nationally
17:59 are
18:00 certainly in,
18:01 in Europe,
18:02 er,
18:03 in Canada,
18:04 for example,
18:05 er Australia,
18:07 regulators are beginning to recognize private food safety standards
18:13 in determining
18:14 how they enforce regulations.
18:17 Um,
18:18 so there is a,
18:19 a two-way
18:21 interaction between food safety regulations and private food safety standards.
18:27 Private food safety standards
18:28 uh are
18:30 costly
18:31 and time consuming.
18:34 To establish.
18:35 So the starting point
18:37 for private food safety standards
18:40 is often international standards.
18:42 So for example,
18:43 the,
18:43 the,
18:44 a lot of the principles,
18:45 the guidelines,
18:47 the,
18:48 the,
18:49 the terminologies established by Codex have been critical.
18:54 To establishing food safety standards,
18:56 and arguably,
18:57 private food safety standards wouldn't have developed in
19:00 the way they have without those international standards,
19:03 for example,
19:05 um,
19:05 and so there is a complex interplay between these,
19:09 these,
19:10 these,
19:10 these entities
19:12 within
19:13 the,
19:13 the whole system of governance,
19:15 um,
19:16 for food safety.
19:17 It's a,
19:17 it's a highly complex terrain.
19:24 I've argued,
19:25 and I,
19:26 you know,
19:26 I,
19:26 I've suggested to you there's been a lot of debate about,
19:29 you know,
19:30 the,
19:30 the wider implications of,
19:32 um,
19:33 er,
19:33 food,
19:34 private food safety standards for,
19:36 for the role of government,
19:37 for democracy,
19:38 for accountability,
19:39 etc.
19:40 but.
19:41 Arguably,
19:42 the,
19:43 the biggest concerns,
19:44 certainly within a development context,
19:47 have been about the impacts on low and middle income countries,
19:51 and in fact,
19:52 there have been,
19:53 you know,
19:53 periodically,
19:55 um er
19:57 concerns raised.
19:58 For example,
19:59 within the WTO
20:01 about the impacts of private food safety standards on,
20:04 um,
20:05 on low and middle income countries.
20:07 And the,
20:07 the,
20:08 the concerns are around,
20:10 particularly about compliance,
20:12 that,
20:12 that there's no doubt that a lot of er of,
20:15 of,
20:16 of low and middle income countries have,
20:18 have struggled to comply.
20:20 Um,
20:21 and,
20:21 and,
20:22 you know,
20:22 exporters therein have struggled to comply,
20:26 but then there is a,
20:27 and there have certainly been arguments that there should be accommodation
20:31 for the special needs,
20:33 the special context of lower
20:35 low middle income countries when it comes to these private food safety standards,
20:39 but.
20:40 That then raises issues about um
20:43 whether these standards,
20:45 if
20:45 they accommodate the,
20:47 the,
20:47 the situations of low and middle income countries,
20:50 actually
20:51 provide the level of assurance that
20:54 the lead firms that are adopting them actually are looking for.
20:58 There are a lot of debates about impacts on trade,
21:00 about whether they facilitate trade or they act as barriers to trade.
21:04 There are concerns about the induced restructuring of agrifood value chains,
21:09 about,
21:10 about who,
21:11 who covers the costs of these things,
21:13 who bears the burden of certification,
21:15 whether that benefits um er
21:18 er
21:19 dominant firms within agri-food value chains because of,
21:23 of economies of scale.
21:25 And there are a lot of debates about
21:26 the impacts on vulnerable agri-food value chain actors,
21:30 you know,
21:30 smallholders,
21:32 on,
21:32 um,
21:33 poorer producers,
21:35 um,
21:35 uh,
21:36 etc.
21:37 so.
21:38 This is an area of a lot of,
21:40 of,
21:41 of,
21:41 of debate,
21:42 concern,
21:43 etc.
21:44 um,
21:44 um,
21:45 not all of it,
21:46 um,
21:47 er,
21:48 fully,
21:48 um,
21:49 uh,
21:49 driven by,
21:50 by evidence,
21:51 but,
21:51 but certainly,
21:53 um,
21:53 uh,
21:54 a lot of,
21:54 a lot of these are the issues that we,
21:56 we see
21:57 coming up.
22:02 These are,
22:02 they are beginning to be
22:04 um
22:06 discussions about the implications for food safety
22:09 governance in low and middle income countries.
22:12 As I've said,
22:12 predominantly
22:14 private food standards
22:16 have um emerged
22:19 and have become um most pervasive
22:22 in high income countries.
22:25 But there are certainly now um er
22:30 questions and suggestions that,
22:33 you know,
22:34 they,
22:35 they certainly have implications,
22:36 but maybe
22:37 offer,
22:39 you know,
22:39 valuable opportunities for
22:41 um low and middle income countries where regulatory systems are
22:47 underdeveloped,
22:48 have,
22:48 have,
22:49 have particular weaknesses.
22:52 There's no doubt that private food safety standards can
22:55 be a very significant mechanism of technology transfer.
23:00 There are potentially
23:02 significant public
23:03 good aspects from um,
23:05 from these things,
23:06 so the global gap standards,
23:08 for example.
23:10 Uh,
23:10 are embody a lot of technical expertise,
23:14 of technical knowledge,
23:15 of,
23:15 of experience,
23:17 um,
23:17 and so the standards themselves
23:20 can be a,
23:21 a significant mechanism of,
23:23 of,
23:23 of,
23:24 um,
23:24 capacity development of,
23:26 of,
23:26 of,
23:26 um,
23:27 knowledge transfer.
23:31 Now what we know is that these standards have almost
23:35 universally developed in the context of robust regulatory systems,
23:41 that is what we've seen.
23:43 And so that raises some very interesting questions about
23:47 whether these standards,
23:47 how well private food safety standards
23:51 operate.
23:52 In the context of weak regulatory systems,
23:55 because
23:56 predominantly,
23:57 private food safety standards have not evolved
24:00 as a substitute for strong regulation,
24:04 they have evolved alongside
24:07 strong,
24:08 um regulation,
24:09 and that,
24:09 so that raises,
24:10 I think some,
24:11 some interesting questions about really whether,
24:14 um,
24:15 private food safety standards can plug the gaps where we have weak
24:20 food safety regulations.
24:23 At the same time,
24:23 however,
24:24 it,
24:24 they do raise some very interesting questions about regulatory models,
24:29 about
24:30 models like co-regulation,
24:32 responsive regulation,
24:33 etc.
24:34 so that
24:35 they,
24:35 they,
24:35 they raise,
24:36 I think,
24:36 some,
24:36 some,
24:37 some interesting,
24:38 uh,
24:39 suggestions and questions as to
24:41 how food safety regulations might and should evolve in
24:46 the context of low and middle income countries.
24:50 But at the same time,
24:51 I think,
24:51 you know,
24:52 they,
24:52 there,
24:52 there is some evidence that
24:55 already that we're seeing diversion of resources away from
24:59 um regulatory systems and,
25:01 and development of regulatory capacity,
25:04 um,
25:04 which,
25:05 you know,
25:05 I think it are
25:06 are things we need to keep in mind.
25:10 Finally,
25:13 What about
25:14 um
25:15 areas beyond
25:17 food safety,
25:18 for example,
25:19 sustainability.
25:22 What lessons might we learn,
25:24 um,
25:26 for.
25:28 Sustainability,
25:29 as an example,
25:31 from
25:31 what we've seen
25:33 in,
25:34 um,
25:35 in the food safety sphere.
25:37 So,
25:38 you know,
25:39 what are the,
25:39 the,
25:40 the,
25:40 the,
25:41 the positives and the negatives
25:43 that are,
25:43 that we've observed when it comes to private food safety standards,
25:47 um.
25:48 What can we learn from
25:51 the uh
25:52 the,
25:52 the,
25:53 the the the,
25:54 the widespread development and adoption,
25:56 um,
25:57 and evolution
25:58 of private standards for food safety when it comes to areas like sustainability,
26:03 where we have not seen that.
26:06 I think
26:07 there's some very important
26:09 um principles and lessons.
26:11 First of all,
26:13 the role of regulations versus standards.
26:15 In a lot of areas like sustainability and,
26:18 and other areas,
26:20 predominantly,
26:22 how standards are seen is as a mechanism
26:26 that essentially er provides means of differentiation.
26:32 Um,
26:33 when it comes to
26:34 businesses that are already,
26:37 you know,
26:38 high performers,
26:39 for example,
26:39 with respect to sustainability,
26:41 and what regulation does is essentially set the foundation.
26:45 What it does is to move the average within,
26:48 within the system,
26:49 or
26:50 lay down a,
26:51 a minimum that we,
26:53 that we want to see.
26:55 Now that sees standards and regulations as distinct entities.
27:00 Now what we,
27:01 we know from private food safety standards is that that's not
27:05 actually what what what exists.
27:07 That regulations and standards are,
27:10 are very closely aligned and,
27:13 and attuned to one another.
27:15 And maybe seeing regulations and standards in that way,
27:19 uh,
27:19 is important when it comes to sustainability.
27:24 Secondly,
27:25 is
27:26 the evolution
27:27 of standards
27:29 where
27:30 regulations and international standards are not so well developed.
27:35 That's what we see with sustainability.
27:37 We don't have
27:39 a a whole portfolio of international standards
27:43 like we see um for food safety,
27:45 for example,
27:45 they've developed,
27:46 been.
27:47 Developed by um Codex Alimentarius,
27:49 we do not see
27:51 such well developed
27:52 national regulations.
27:54 What that means is the transaction costs of developing
27:58 standards,
27:58 private standards for sustainability are potentially extremely high.
28:04 Um,
28:04 and the question comes,
28:06 who is gonna bear those costs?
28:09 Another key thing that comes out of food safety
28:13 is the key role of lead firms.
28:17 That lead firms,
28:18 supermarket chains,
28:20 food service chains
28:22 within high income countries,
28:24 some large food processing,
28:26 um er operations
28:28 have been
28:29 critical
28:30 in terms of driving the development of private
28:34 food safety standards,
28:35 cos it's these firms that have adopted them
28:37 and essentially required compliance by their suppliers.
28:43 Then there's the importance of legitimacy.
28:45 The reason why private food safety standards have evolved,
28:48 and,
28:49 and have been so critical,
28:51 um,
28:51 in,
28:51 in,
28:52 in,
28:52 in governing food safety,
28:54 is because they are seen as legitimate mechanisms on the,
28:58 in the context of food safety.
29:01 Uh,
29:01 Amongst lead firms,
29:02 and that legitimacy and how it's established and how it,
29:05 um,
29:06 is maintained,
29:07 uh,
29:08 is,
29:08 is a critical,
29:10 um,
29:10 piece of the jigsaw
29:12 that we have to remain mindful of,
29:14 for example,
29:15 in the area of,
29:16 of,
29:16 of,
29:17 um,
29:17 sustainability.
29:19 And then finally,
29:20 there's the role in technology transfer,
29:22 there is no doubt that,
29:24 um,
29:25 That private food safety standards have,
29:27 have been a critical
29:29 mechanism of
29:31 transferring expertise and capacity
29:34 between high income countries and low and middle income countries,
29:37 uh low and middle income countries in the context of the of,
29:40 of global er agrifood value chains.
29:44 So I'm gonna leave it
29:46 there,
29:47 um,
29:48 thank you very much,
29:49 um.
29:50 I'm happy to answer any questions,
29:52 um,
29:53 if you've got,
29:53 if you disagree with anything,
29:55 if you uh have your own um
29:57 um perspectives,
29:59 that would be,
30:00 that would be great.
30:01 Thanks so much.
30:03 Thank you,
30:03 Spencer.
30:04 Thank you very much.
30:05 Um,
30:05 you stick on time,
30:06 50 minutes.
30:08 Uh,
30:09 OK,
30:09 so let me open to,
30:11 to questions
30:13 to the colleagues,
30:13 but,
30:14 um,
30:15 perhaps I can start with,
30:16 with one question myself,
30:18 um,
30:19 so.
30:21 11 issue though,
30:22 once you,
30:23 so once you establish this sort of
30:26 risk management and um
30:29 The kind of burden of proof as well to to a lot of these big buyers
30:34 uh in agro industry.
30:36 And you start developing private standards,
30:39 right?
30:40 I think
30:41 my concern is how much of the,
30:43 what you have seen in the last 10 years perhaps
30:46 is less on
30:49 the risk part.
30:51 And more into
30:53 the protectionism,
30:55 uh,
30:55 lead firms
30:57 in
30:57 captive investments in the value chain.
31:00 So it starts,
31:01 in,
31:01 in other words,
31:02 it starts like we need to manage this risk.
31:05 Consumers are also becoming more sophisticated.
31:08 There is a need,
31:08 a need for product differentiation.
31:10 But then you start seeing also
31:13 the benefits of all these private governance
31:17 in terms of uh having captive investments and
31:22 and these relational contracts that are very exclusive.
31:25 So how much
31:26 you see in the last 10 years a shift towards more
31:29 the value chain,
31:30 uh,
31:30 some competition issues rather than than food safety.
31:34 Yeah,
31:35 yeah,
31:35 I mean that,
31:35 that,
31:36 I mean that's uh
31:38 certainly
31:40 amongst the concerns that,
31:42 that,
31:42 that are raised,
31:44 um,
31:45 and,
31:45 um,
31:46 and there is no doubt
31:48 that these are mechanisms that are
31:52 used by
31:54 lead firms
31:55 to
31:56 one,
31:56 reallocate costs within
31:59 the agrifood system.
32:00 You know,
32:01 so essentially they push the costs
32:04 onto their suppliers,
32:06 you know,
32:06 through
32:07 third party certification
32:09 that then get dissipated in the system,
32:12 you know,
32:12 and some may be passed back to them through the prices that they pay,
32:16 but a lot of it gets dissipated and absorbed elsewhere.
32:20 I think there is the important issue here of
32:24 what is the collective interest of lead firms.
32:28 Because they have a collective interest in
32:32 er avoiding food safety problems.
32:36 Um,
32:36 you know,
32:37 so they have an individual interest in,
32:39 no doubt,
32:40 in what they supply
32:42 being seen as safe and,
32:45 you know,
32:45 ideally safer
32:47 than their competitors,
32:49 but at the same time,
32:51 they have an interest in,
32:53 in general,
32:54 in food being seen as safe,
32:57 because,
32:57 uh,
32:58 you can't,
32:58 you,
32:58 you know,
32:58 consumers don't always
33:00 correctly,
33:01 you know,
33:02 associate,
33:03 you know,
33:04 What made them sick,
33:06 you know,
33:07 you know,
33:07 um,
33:07 you know,
33:08 uh,
33:08 and,
33:09 you know,
33:09 so,
33:09 so that's an issue
33:11 within the system.
33:12 There's,
33:12 there's no doubt,
33:13 but
33:14 it is very interesting that
33:17 what we are seeing in the last 10 years,
33:21 uh,
33:21 maybe even more recently,
33:23 is a backtracking in the system,
33:26 so
33:26 that you undoubtedly are seeing some of the lead firms,
33:31 and certainly the,
33:33 The,
33:33 the dominant global players,
33:35 like some of the,
33:36 the,
33:36 the large um food service chains,
33:40 backtracking from,
33:42 um,
33:43 third party certification,
33:45 and,
33:46 uh,
33:47 adding on their own individual requirements again.
33:50 Um,
33:50 and so it's,
33:51 it's again,
33:52 it's this,
33:52 this balance between
33:54 this being
33:55 between the two.
33:57 The other thing I think it's important to,
33:59 to recognize here is that,
34:02 Yes,
34:03 you can certainly see that um these are mechanisms of power.
34:08 But there's also
34:10 what is important for
34:12 lead firms,
34:14 is the ability to be able to switch between suppliers.
34:18 Um,
34:19 and
34:20 one of the benefits of third party certification is that
34:24 you have,
34:26 to the extent that you accept a,
34:28 uh,
34:28 a wider group of standards,
34:31 you have the ability to switch.
34:34 Between suppliers more easily
34:36 than
34:37 if you,
34:37 if you only apply your own standard,
34:40 you know,
34:40 and,
34:41 and then you can,
34:42 you know,
34:42 you,
34:42 you,
34:43 you are naturally restricting your supply base,
34:46 so it's,
34:46 it's a,
34:47 it's,
34:47 it,
34:48 it's complex,
34:50 is,
34:50 is,
34:50 you know,
34:50 is,
34:51 is what I would argue.
34:52 Mhm.
34:54 Thanks.
34:54 Uh,
34:55 so I think there are a couple of questions.
34:57 Uh,
34:57 Xby with a new start,
34:58 and then Artaba,
35:00 let's take 2 or 3 questions.
35:03 Uh,
35:03 sure.
35:03 Thank you.
35:04 Um,
35:05 thank you,
35:05 Spencer.
35:05 So,
35:06 actually,
35:07 um,
35:07 my question relates to,
35:09 um,
35:11 More,
35:12 more the regulation rather than the private standards.
35:14 So,
35:15 so,
35:15 you know,
35:16 we've been tracking,
35:17 uh,
35:18 how countries
35:19 set,
35:20 uh,
35:20 maximum residue levels,
35:22 uh,
35:22 for various commodities,
35:23 and this is,
35:23 you know,
35:24 across,
35:24 uh,
35:25 the whole gamut of,
35:26 of countries.
35:26 So from low income countries to high income countries,
35:30 and by and large we find that
35:31 they do,
35:33 they do follow,
35:34 uh,
35:34 codex when,
35:35 whenever,
35:36 whenever possible,
35:37 and so.
35:38 So this is,
35:39 you know,
35:39 as far as
35:40 how they set standards,
35:41 but,
35:42 but I'm,
35:42 I'm,
35:42 you know,
35:43 the question is really
35:44 how they go about
35:45 conforming with set standards.
35:47 I mean,
35:48 you know,
35:48 take a country like,
35:50 well,
35:50 take any,
35:50 any low-income country,
35:52 right?
35:52 I mean,
35:53 you know,
35:53 there,
35:53 it's typically,
35:55 you know,
35:56 agricultural production is done by smallholder farmers.
36:00 I mean,
36:01 you know,
36:01 there's very little,
36:02 uh,
36:03 capacity in terms of labs that can actually test.
36:07 So,
36:08 so
36:09 what,
36:09 you know,
36:09 what they,
36:10 how do they,
36:11 you know,
36:11 I mean,
36:12 of course you could,
36:13 you could restrict the number of pesticides that get into the country because
36:17 probably they're not produced,
36:18 uh,
36:18 in,
36:19 in country,
36:19 but then also there's the application,
36:21 right,
36:21 because,
36:22 you know,
36:23 part of the MRL is that you don't put too much stuff and,
36:26 and of course this requires,
36:27 uh,
36:28 uh,
36:28 you know.
36:29 Uh,
36:29 uh,
36:29 uh,
36:30 uh,
36:30 you know,
36:30 um,
36:32 machines or whatever,
36:33 uh,
36:33 you know,
36:33 that are,
36:34 that are calibrated for,
36:36 you know,
36:36 for,
36:37 you know,
36:37 when you spread the pesticide or whatever,
36:39 and so,
36:39 and,
36:40 you know,
36:40 we know that a lot of these farmers don't need,
36:42 don't have these,
36:43 these tools.
36:44 So,
36:44 so I guess the question is how,
36:46 yes,
36:47 you can set the MRL,
36:48 and this is again,
36:49 this is regulation,
36:50 right?
36:50 So as you say,
36:51 this
36:52 sort of establishes a floor,
36:53 if you will,
36:54 for every producer
36:55 that wants to sell domestically,
36:57 right.
36:58 Um,
36:59 but,
36:59 but how is that enforced,
37:00 or,
37:00 you know,
37:01 how,
37:01 how,
37:02 you know,
37:02 how,
37:03 yeah,
37:03 given,
37:04 given the,
37:05 given the,
37:05 the,
37:05 the,
37:06 the,
37:06 the way the,
37:07 you know,
37:07 given the,
37:08 the production structure,
37:09 if you will,
37:10 right,
37:10 given the,
37:11 the,
37:11 you know,
37:11 the,
37:12 the,
37:12 the firm size distribution and whatnot.
37:15 Yeah,
37:16 OK,
37:16 shall we,
37:17 shall we get a couple more questions,
37:18 or you wanna answer?
37:19 No,
37:20 no,
37:20 sure,
37:20 then I can.
37:22 Artabas,
37:22 do you wanna make the question instead of me reading?
37:24 I think it's gonna be more effective.
37:29 Hi,
37:30 everyone.
37:31 And thank you,
37:31 very interesting,
37:33 uh,
37:34 talk,
37:34 uh,
37:34 Spencer,
37:35 and,
37:35 uh,
37:36 quite,
37:36 uh,
37:36 thought-provoking as well.
37:39 Um,
37:39 so I,
37:40 I guess one thing you mentioned that,
37:42 uh,
37:42 stuck with me
37:43 as standards as technology transfer,
37:47 and I think
37:48 when we look at our work in the development,
37:50 we really,
37:51 uh,
37:52 in terms of
37:53 capacity building for farmers and,
37:56 um,
37:57 you know,
37:57 trying to,
37:58 um,
37:58 improve the agricultural productivity
38:01 in developing countries,
38:03 we really focus on
38:05 Um,
38:06 on things that could improve the production
38:10 and,
38:10 um,
38:11 I guess promoting standards,
38:13 uh,
38:13 as something like Global Gap
38:16 or others,
38:17 uh,
38:17 could be one way of,
38:19 um,
38:19 you know,
38:19 linking farmers to markets and building their capacity,
38:23 improving productivity,
38:24 but then,
38:25 Really surprised to hear that there are only 180,000 growers globally,
38:32 uh,
38:33 that are part of the global gap.
38:36 And,
38:36 um,
38:37 as you mentioned,
38:38 this is one of the biggest,
38:39 uh,
38:40 standards scheme.
38:42 So
38:43 why are we not seeing more adoption of standards?
38:47 Um,
38:48 are they more barriers to entry as opposed to technology transfer?
38:53 Or,
38:54 um,
38:54 uh,
38:54 and what can be done,
38:56 um,
38:57 especially by the World Bank,
38:58 uh,
38:58 to really promote this,
39:00 uh,
39:01 in a way of development and,
39:03 uh,
39:04 producer capacity building.
39:05 Thank you so much.
39:08 Why,
39:08 why don't you answer these two and then we move to,
39:11 to the next question,
39:12 otherwise,
39:13 yeah.
39:14 Yeah,
39:15 I mean the MRL uh
39:18 issue is the one that comes up,
39:20 you know,
39:20 so often,
39:21 you know,
39:22 and.
39:25 I mean,
39:25 it,
39:26 I mean it's complex because.
39:29 None of these,
39:30 the,
39:31 you know,
39:32 so,
39:32 so Global GP,
39:33 for example,
39:35 um,
39:35 doesn't lay down,
39:37 you know,
39:37 limits on pesticide residues.
39:40 You know,
39:40 it is,
39:41 so,
39:41 so you have standards that are
39:44 laying down,
39:45 you know,
39:46 principles and practices when it comes to good agricultural practice.
39:50 Yeah,
39:50 so that's,
39:51 it's a system.
39:54 Where the MRLs come is where a lead firm,
39:58 a retailer in Europe,
40:00 for example,
40:01 may have a list and say,
40:03 we don't want any of these pesticides,
40:05 OK,
40:06 uh,
40:07 and so there is no MRL,
40:09 you know,
40:09 the limit is the limit of determination,
40:12 and of course,
40:13 the better laboratory you have,
40:15 you know,
40:16 the better you are at detecting,
40:17 so the limit of determination gets less and less and less and less and less.
40:21 Um,
40:22 you know,
40:22 and so.
40:24 Um,
40:26 So,
40:27 you know,
40:27 so it can be that,
40:29 you know,
40:30 yeah,
40:30 different dominant buyers will have a,
40:32 you know,
40:33 different limits and,
40:34 you know,
40:35 etc.
40:36 um,
40:37 now,
40:37 and of course,
40:38 you know,
40:39 the European Union,
40:40 for example,
40:41 will have.
40:43 Its own regulations when it comes to
40:46 um uh MRLs and approved,
40:49 you know,
40:49 active ingredients,
40:50 etc.
40:51 which will,
40:53 will,
40:54 will,
40:54 will,
40:54 will um deviate from Codex,
40:57 you know,
40:58 I mean one of the,
40:58 the concerns that's always
41:00 put,
41:00 and I think this is a big challenge for international standards,
41:03 is,
41:04 you know,
41:04 the Codex process by its nature takes time.
41:07 And it takes time,
41:09 because it is supposed to be an international process,
41:12 where,
41:13 and the more,
41:14 you know,
41:15 low and middle income countries have a voice,
41:17 the longer it takes.
41:19 You know,
41:20 I mean,
41:21 inevitably,
41:22 um,
41:23 and so you always have that problem of,
41:25 you know,
41:26 you know,
41:27 international standards that are inclusive,
41:30 where
41:30 voices that in the past,
41:32 you know,
41:32 were muted and now,
41:34 you know,
41:35 you know,
41:36 are now louder,
41:37 and there's no doubt that low income countries are playing a,
41:40 a more active role.
41:40 Um,
41:42 but the Codex process by its nature,
41:44 you know,
41:44 is,
41:45 is slower,
41:46 and regulatory processes are.
41:48 There is,
41:48 you know,
41:49 a retailer
41:50 in Europe,
41:51 for example,
41:52 can define tomorrow,
41:54 the things that it wants to see
41:56 or not see
41:58 in the produce that it buys,
42:00 and it can change them overnight.
42:02 Um,
42:03 uh,
42:03 now,
42:04 what stops them doing that is the fact that
42:07 it's com it's,
42:08 um,
42:08 suppliers of course have to be able to comply.
42:11 You know,
42:11 so,
42:12 you know,
42:12 and the last,
42:13 the one thing they do not want
42:14 is empty supermarket shelves.
42:17 You know,
42:17 so,
42:18 you know,
42:18 they,
42:19 they themselves have,
42:20 have a,
42:20 have,
42:21 have a,
42:21 a,
42:22 there's a balance there,
42:23 you know,
42:24 so,
42:24 but,
42:25 you know,
42:25 I think,
42:26 I mean there is no doubt that,
42:27 you know,
42:28 that,
42:28 that regulations are important here
42:31 within low and middle income countries,
42:33 because the regulations will determine,
42:36 you know,
42:36 in the vast majority of low and middle income countries,
42:39 all of these pesticides,
42:41 for example,
42:42 are imported.
42:43 You know,
42:44 there may be some that are more generic and that are traded,
42:48 you know,
42:49 uh,
42:49 regionally,
42:50 but a lot of them are imported,
42:51 so import controls are important,
42:53 you know,
42:54 um,
42:54 systems of,
42:55 of approval are important
42:58 because they can at least weed out,
43:00 you know,
43:01 the,
43:01 the,
43:01 the,
43:01 the things that are,
43:03 are the biggest problem,
43:05 um,
43:05 but,
43:06 you know,
43:06 I mean that,
43:07 but yeah,
43:08 I mean it,
43:08 it,
43:08 it's,
43:09 it's a,
43:09 it's,
43:09 it's complex,
43:10 there's,
43:10 there's no doubt,
43:12 um.
43:12 Um,
43:13 and,
43:14 um,
43:15 uh,
43:15 and understanding the role of these different parts of the jigsaw is,
43:19 is,
43:19 is,
43:20 is,
43:20 is,
43:21 is important,
43:22 um.
43:23 So,
43:24 to that I think is that on,
43:26 on MRLs,
43:27 um,
43:28 the 190,000 for global gap,
43:30 OK,
43:31 I mean this,
43:31 this is complicated because
43:34 these,
43:34 these,
43:35 these are around 190,000 farmers are
43:41 directly
43:42 um certified to the global gap.
43:45 Family of standards,
43:47 but there are a lot of other standards as well,
43:50 so you can have
43:52 a national,
43:53 like Canada gap,
43:54 Canada has its own,
43:56 good agricultural practice standards
43:58 that are benchmarked to global gap.
44:01 OK,
44:02 so there are
44:03 these benchmark standards.
44:05 Um,
44:06 under what is called the Global Food Safety Initiative,
44:09 OK,
44:10 and so,
44:11 you know,
44:11 a,
44:11 a farmer certified to Canada G GAP,
44:14 OK,
44:15 is not certified to global GP,
44:18 but essentially they are seen as equivalent,
44:21 so the numbers get
44:23 bigger,
44:23 OK,
44:24 so,
44:25 um,
44:25 um,
44:26 with,
44:26 you know,
44:26 with,
44:27 within,
44:27 within the system,
44:28 um,
44:29 and of course,
44:31 This is number of producers,
44:33 this is not farmed area,
44:36 you know,
44:36 I mean,
44:37 so
44:38 for
44:40 some very important global commodities,
44:42 you know,
44:43 that are traded internationally,
44:46 a far greater proportion of the supplied,
44:50 um,
44:50 quantities and the farmed area are certified to global gap.
44:55 You take aquaculture,
44:57 for example,
44:58 you know,
44:58 a,
44:59 you know,
44:59 a farm.
44:59 More significant proportion
45:01 of
45:02 the,
45:03 the pro of the global production
45:05 of
45:06 um of,
45:07 of commodity that's going into into into international trade
45:11 is produced under a global gap standard
45:15 or
45:16 something that is benchmarked to it.
45:18 So,
45:19 so I think it's important to recognize,
45:21 you know,
45:21 the,
45:22 the,
45:22 the,
45:23 the
45:23 production area,
45:24 the production volumes as well as the total numbers.
45:31 Uh,
45:31 Martin,
45:32 you have
45:33 to hang up.
45:36 Yeah,
45:36 hi,
45:36 Spencer.
45:37 Um,
45:37 very interesting.
45:38 Um,
45:39 so,
45:39 um,
45:39 I have two questions.
45:40 So I think the first one,
45:41 it's,
45:41 it's really about,
45:42 um,
45:43 compliance,
45:43 um,
45:44 and,
45:44 and,
45:44 and you paid a lot of,
45:45 um,
45:45 allegiance to it,
45:46 and I think it's something that needs,
45:48 um,
45:48 some unpacking here.
45:49 So what are we talking about in compliance?
45:52 Why do we observe,
45:53 uh,
45:53 very low compliance,
45:55 uh,
45:55 you know,
45:55 um,
45:56 especially from the poorer countries?
45:57 Is it,
45:57 is it still a question of regulations,
46:00 poor institutions,
46:01 and how can this be made better?
46:04 Um,
46:04 the second question,
46:05 you also talked,
46:06 um,
46:06 the second question is also related to the fact that,
46:09 you know,
46:09 you spoke about the importance of big firms,
46:11 you know,
46:11 big traders
46:13 really as
46:14 good actors in pushing
46:16 this private food
46:18 standards.
46:19 And,
46:19 and I observed that in many developing countries,
46:22 we are observing really different mega trends.
46:24 So,
46:24 one key trend is really the,
46:25 the,
46:26 the
46:27 The,
46:27 the development of um
46:28 supermarkets,
46:29 right?
46:29 So we're getting a very strong
46:32 push um in supermarkets in many um
46:34 very urban cities,
46:36 but relatedly we're also getting really strong farmer groups,
46:39 right?
46:39 Um,
46:39 what is your impression about these groups,
46:41 um,
46:42 and this,
46:42 um,
46:43 and this um supermarket revolution?
46:44 Can they play a role as well,
46:46 you know,
46:46 in ensuring compliance and pushing this to the next level?
46:49 Thank you.
46:51 Um,
46:53 so by compliance,
46:55 do you mean,
46:57 uh,
46:57 certification to these private standards?
47:02 Right,
47:03 right,
47:03 OK.
47:04 No,
47:05 I mean,
47:07 Initially,
47:08 I mean let's,
47:08 let's take,
47:10 let's take Global Gap as an example,
47:12 OK,
47:12 let's take,
47:13 you know,
47:13 good agricultural practice standards,
47:15 so farmers,
47:17 OK,
47:17 rather than those in food processing or whatever.
47:21 Initially
47:23 They,
47:24 I mean,
47:25 Global Gap was a,
47:27 a,
47:28 an initiative of
47:30 very large European retailers.
47:34 So that's why it developed,
47:35 and it predominantly
47:37 it's you know well well it's initial focus was compliance by European farmers.
47:45 And then over time.
47:47 Uh,
47:48 it got applied to the global supply chains,
47:52 so it began to bring in,
47:55 um.
47:57 Producers in other parts of the world.
48:01 Big,
48:02 you know,
48:03 produced crops,
48:03 tropical beverages and things like that and whatever,
48:07 and then fruits and vegetables and
48:09 etc.
48:10 so it,
48:11 so it gradually evolved,
48:13 and as it has done that,
48:16 Um,
48:17 it has involved.
48:20 At the end of the day,
48:24 I would argue,
48:26 you know,
48:26 that the,
48:27 the lead firms,
48:28 the supermarket chains,
48:29 etc.
48:30 you know,
48:31 the,
48:32 as and of itself,
48:33 they don't really care about farmers in low and middle income countries.
48:38 Now,
48:38 in a perfect world,
48:39 you know,
48:39 they don't want to exclude them,
48:41 and they certainly don't want bad press with being seen to do that,
48:46 but what matters to them
48:48 is filling the shelves with
48:50 product that meets their food safety requirements.
48:54 And so
48:57 Now,
48:57 at the same,
48:58 so they want to be able,
48:59 they want a reliable supply.
49:02 Of course that's gonna vary by season,
49:04 you know,
49:05 so they're gonna have to go around the world for some of these commodities,
49:09 and buy from different parts of the world at different times of the year.
49:13 Um,
49:14 so they want assurance about
49:16 things like pesticide residues and etc.
49:20 antibiotic residues in aquaculture,
49:23 raw products and whatever,
49:24 so they,
49:24 they,
49:25 and of course they want.
49:27 To be able to get it at a price,
49:29 you know,
49:30 that is,
49:30 you know,
49:31 acceptable to them,
49:32 they want reliability of supply,
49:35 particularly with fresh produce,
49:37 so that they get every day,
49:40 a reliable supply of
49:42 fresh produce from wherever else it,
49:44 wherever it is in the world,
49:46 OK.
49:48 Um,
49:48 they wanna be able to switch
49:50 sources of supply,
49:52 um,
49:53 you know,
49:53 by time of year,
49:55 um,
49:56 by cost,
49:57 etc.
49:57 so they want flexibility
49:59 within their supply chain,
50:01 but at the same time,
50:03 they wanna be able to,
50:05 um,
50:05 you know,
50:06 meet their requirements in terms of assurance when it comes to food safety.
50:11 So they're managing a number of different things,
50:13 and doing all of this
50:15 at
50:16 minimum cost to them.
50:18 So they're balancing the,
50:20 these,
50:20 these,
50:21 these different
50:22 elements of the,
50:23 of the mix.
50:25 And
50:27 So
50:29 Some,
50:29 I mean,
50:30 there's certainly,
50:31 there have been um.
50:33 Uh,
50:34 there are examples where some countries
50:38 have developed their own standards,
50:41 China,
50:41 for example,
50:42 Kenya,
50:43 for example,
50:44 uh,
50:45 Vietnam,
50:45 etc.
50:47 Um,
50:47 so there's Viet Gap,
50:49 for example.
50:50 There's Kenya Gap,
50:52 OK,
50:53 that are
50:55 based on
50:57 global gap,
50:58 for example,
50:59 you know,
50:59 that's the technology transfer
51:01 element.
51:03 But
51:05 All of this,
51:05 it's not just about the standard,
51:07 it is about
51:09 the,
51:09 the system of certification.
51:12 Yeah,
51:13 is,
51:13 is,
51:14 you know,
51:14 so it isn't that,
51:15 you know,
51:15 just saying,
51:16 well,
51:16 you know,
51:17 what are,
51:17 what are,
51:17 what are the things that farmers have to do,
51:20 it's,
51:20 it's about,
51:21 you know,
51:21 what system is in place to make sure they do it on an ongoing basis.
51:26 And that's where the auditing and the certification
51:29 comes into,
51:29 it comes into the mix.
51:32 Global Gap over time
51:34 has
51:35 has technical working groups in different parts of the world.
51:39 Um,
51:39 you know,
51:40 so,
51:40 and it does that because,
51:42 you know,
51:43 the,
51:43 the context is different in.
51:46 You know,
51:47 East Africa,
51:47 for example,
51:48 or,
51:49 you know,
51:49 East Asia or Southeast Asia
51:52 to Europe,
51:52 you know,
51:53 the hazards are different,
51:54 the pests are different,
51:56 etc.
51:57 um,
51:57 you know,
51:58 so,
51:58 you know,
51:59 it,
51:59 it,
51:59 it is,
52:00 there's no doubt the system has evolved,
52:03 um,
52:04 but,
52:05 at the end of the day,
52:07 um,
52:07 you know,
52:08 the.
52:10 The system will accommodate the special needs
52:13 and circumstances of smallholders in Kenya,
52:16 for example,
52:18 um.
52:20 But only to the extent that,
52:23 you know,
52:24 uh.
52:25 The level of assurance is maintained for those who adopt these standards,
52:30 so it's,
52:30 it's a balancing act,
52:32 you know,
52:33 here,
52:34 um,
52:34 and yes,
52:35 you can accommodate the special needs of low and middle income countries,
52:39 of smallholders,
52:40 etc.
52:41 That's great if you can find a way of doing that,
52:44 OK.
52:45 That will also meet the needs of
52:48 the businesses that are acquiring it.
52:50 Now,
52:50 in Global GP,
52:51 for example,
52:53 um,
52:54 one of the big things that,
52:55 that,
52:56 that accommodations that came in was group certification of smallholders.
53:01 Initially,
53:02 every farmer had to be certified.
53:05 Now,
53:05 that doesn't work for smallholders,
53:07 so group certification came in.
53:10 Um,
53:10 but there is a holder of that group's cert,
53:14 um,
53:14 um,
53:15 certification,
53:16 which is often the exporter.
53:18 So there are again issues there.
53:19 So there have been accommodations,
53:21 OK,
53:22 but no doubt,
53:24 you know,
53:24 these things are challenging to,
53:27 to comply with,
53:28 there's,
53:29 there's no doubt about that,
53:30 and that's made even worse by the fact that there is a global shortage of auditors.
53:36 Um,
53:37 and so auditing is expensive.
53:39 Um,
53:39 often these auditors come in and they don't tend to fly economy.
53:44 You know,
53:44 so they,
53:45 they will come into a country and will be certifying.
53:49 Um,
53:49 so the cost can be,
53:51 can be expensive,
53:52 there's no doubt,
53:53 you know,
53:54 but it,
53:54 it's a,
53:55 it's an
53:56 interesting balancing act
53:57 here,
53:58 cos at the end of the day,
54:00 All of these standards and the associated certification
54:04 only have value to the extent that they are accepted
54:08 by the buyers.
54:14 Yeah.
54:15 Um,
54:16 any more questions?
54:17 So I have 11 final question on,
54:19 on my end,
54:19 which is
54:21 if you could talk a little bit about the,
54:23 the CODexplatarium
54:25 initiative,
54:26 right,
54:26 um,
54:27 and
54:28 I think on,
54:29 on the one hand
54:30 it kind of seems that it's clear that having some sort of,
54:34 of reference of international standard for sustainability would be
54:39 Very useful,
54:40 but on the other hand,
54:42 once you see on the work that we're doing on MRLs,
54:45 the comparison with Codex MRLs.
54:49 You wonder
54:50 how relevant they are,
54:52 right,
54:52 because what we see actually is that
54:55 it's primarily low income countries that are adopting the codex
54:59 while
55:01 developed economies,
55:02 advanced economies,
55:02 they expand the list,
55:04 uh,
55:05 never ending,
55:05 no,
55:06 so how do you see
55:08 the relevance for the experience of sustainability.
55:13 It's very interesting because
55:15 uh
55:16 when people talk about codex,
55:18 etc.
55:19 um,
55:20 one of the things they instantly start talking about is MRLs.
55:23 Now these,
55:24 these quantitative limits.
55:26 I would argue
55:27 that by far the
55:29 biggest value of the codex system.
55:33 Is actually in the,
55:35 in
55:36 uh its basic principles,
55:37 it's guidelines,
55:39 etc.
55:39 So for example,
55:40 Codex lays down basic principles of food hygiene.
55:45 They are referenced in every private food safety standard.
55:50 It lays down terminology,
55:52 methods of analysis,
55:54 etc.
55:56 Just
55:57 Codex has laid down now
55:59 basic principles for
56:02 the national assessment and recognition of,
56:06 um,
56:07 third party,
56:08 a voluntary third party assurance,
56:10 um,
56:11 for food safety,
56:12 for example.
56:14 And,
56:14 and,
56:14 and it's these more
56:17 basic things.
56:19 These basic principles and terminologies and,
56:22 and methods and,
56:23 you know,
56:23 it's language,
56:24 etc.
56:25 that,
56:27 I would argue private food safety standards.
56:32 wouldn't exist without,
56:34 and then there's the wider system,
56:36 the,
56:36 the ISO and IEC frameworks for auditing,
56:41 for accreditation,
56:42 etc.
56:43 There are international standards that are the bedrock
56:47 of this whole system of certification,
56:50 etc.
56:51 and,
56:51 and again,
56:53 The system wouldn't exist without those things,
56:55 and so I think that
56:57 the,
56:57 the planetarius idea,
57:00 you know,
57:00 in,
57:01 if it's focus is on basic principles and language and systems,
57:07 um,
57:08 and a terminology,
57:10 that can play a fundamental role in reducing the transaction costs
57:16 with establishing,
57:18 You know,
57:19 of,
57:20 um,
57:20 third party of,
57:21 of,
57:21 of private standards,
57:23 um,
57:23 and I would argue that for Codex,
57:27 the MRLs are important,
57:29 but actually the
57:30 biggest value has come from,
57:33 not from those quantitative limits,
57:35 but in,
57:36 in the more fundamental stuff
57:38 that
57:39 is routinely accepted by regulators.
57:42 And by those who established private food safety standards,
57:46 and that,
57:46 you know,
57:47 that,
57:47 I,
57:47 I would argue they wouldn't exist without that,
57:50 um,
57:51 because it,
57:51 they have fundamentally reduced the costs,
57:55 uh,
57:55 of,
57:55 of doing these things.
57:58 So I think,
57:58 I think actually could play a very fun,
58:00 really fundamental role,
58:02 but the problem is,
58:03 Chavier,
58:03 I think that,
58:04 you know,
58:04 this is,
58:05 er,
58:06 food safety is far less political
58:09 than sustainability.
58:10 I mean,
58:11 you,
58:11 you look at the,
58:12 you know,
58:12 the deliberations in Codex on sustainability,
58:16 I mean,
58:17 I'm not sure,
58:17 it's been shut down,
58:19 but you know,
58:20 you know,
58:20 I,
58:20 I think it's,
58:21 it's not going to rear its head in Codex probably
58:24 for some time now,
58:25 that's Codex Alimentarius,
58:27 um,
58:28 you know,
58:28 because this is an area where,
58:30 you know,
58:31 there may not even be fundamental agreements on what sustainability is,
58:36 you know,
58:36 so,
58:37 yeah.
58:38 OK.
58:40 OK,
58:41 thanks very much.
58:41 So we are 1:30.
58:43 Uh,
58:44 it has been a great,
58:45 uh,
58:46 seminar,
58:47 Spencer.
58:48 Thank you very much,
58:49 and,
58:49 uh,
58:50 thanks everybody,
58:51 colleagues for participating.
58:52 There will be more seminars,
58:53 so please
58:55 stay tuned.
58:56 Thank you.
58:56 And,
58:56 and,
58:56 and just to say,
58:57 Chad,
58:58 if anyone has any questions,
58:59 whatever,
59:00 please email me,
59:01 OK,
59:02 at,
59:02 and,
59:02 at,
59:03 at,
59:03 um,
59:04 you know,
59:04 at,
59:04 at any time.
59:05 I'm happy to talk about this.
59:07 Thank you.
59:08 Thanks very much.
59:09 Take care,
59:10 everyone.
59:10 Thanks so much.
59:11 Bye.
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