00:10 Hello everybody,
00:11 my name is Robert Schlatter.
00:12 I'm the manager of the Global Extractors Unit at the World Bank.
00:16 Today I have the pleasure to kick off a new series
00:18 where we take the pulse of the mining industry and invite
00:22 stakeholders
00:23 to share their views on latest developments.
00:27 It's my great pleasure to kick this off today with Michael Stanley,
00:31 a lead mining specialist of the Global Extractives Unit.
00:34 And even more important,
00:36 a veteran of the industry since
00:38 over 4 decades.
00:39 A very warm welcome to you,
00:40 Michael.
00:41 Thank you,
00:41 Robert.
00:42 It's a pleasure to be here.
00:44 So Michael,
00:44 as you know,
00:46 the
00:46 strategy of the Global extractors unit
00:49 has a pillar called Mining for Development.
00:53 Where do you think we are standing with
00:54 regard to the implementation under this pillar,
00:56 and where do you think the industry stands
00:58 regarding mining and sector development?
01:02 I think that minerals have again
01:04 come to the forefront
01:05 of economic development,
01:07 a sustainable supply of minerals.
01:09 And many nations have
01:11 characterized minerals as either critical
01:14 or strategic
01:15 to their broader economic development
01:18 and so
01:19 we've long known that minerals shape the environment in which we live.
01:24 Where we work,
01:25 places of education,
01:26 healthcare,
01:27 and other spaces,
01:28 and certainly now in the digital era,
01:30 minerals are essential to the carrying and transmission of thought.
01:34 I think that one of the big issues or trends that we see going forward
01:38 is this integration
01:40 of the mining
01:41 and sustainable supply of minerals
01:43 with energy transition and other big agendas of the World Bank.
01:47 So I'll give you a good example.
01:49 The
01:49 M300 is to connect
01:52 300 million people in Africa
01:54 to a
01:55 sustainable supply of energy
01:57 that's affordable.
01:58 And that of course demands an increasing amount of minerals
02:02 both
02:03 in the generation of electricity,
02:05 the transmission,
02:06 the distribution,
02:07 and then all the technologies that people are using
02:10 to access
02:12 information and learning and to places of work.
02:15 And so there's this
02:16 lovely
02:16 harmonious relationship now between
02:19 these mineral supplies and things like that broad energy transition.
02:22 The World Bank and African Development Bank are very committed to that.
02:25 Over the next
02:27 until 2030,
02:28 we will be providing access to up to 300 million
02:31 and I think that that is a very good illustration of
02:33 how this comes together more broadly inside the World Bank.
02:37 You,
02:37 you mentioned the M300 agenda and how mining can help with that.
02:41 You also know that another big agenda is jobs.
02:44 How do you see the mining industry can contribute to that agenda as well?
02:49 The jobs agenda is an interesting one.
02:51 The mining industry is becoming ever more complex
02:54 in the terms of the technologies it's deploying.
02:57 And so the demand for labor
02:59 is moving up that value chain.
03:01 Skilled labor
03:03 and individuals that have,
03:04 uh,
03:05 I think,
03:05 deeper skill sets
03:07 in areas of automation,
03:09 digitization,
03:10 right?
03:11 And so that's,
03:11 that leads to higher paying jobs,
03:13 better quality jobs,
03:15 as
03:16 these operations become more and more automated.
03:18 And so,
03:19 uh,
03:19 the mining industry will continue to create jobs all along
03:22 its value chain in the sourcing and production of minerals,
03:25 the transport of minerals,
03:27 and then in the processing and the demand side.
03:30 But I think we will see that in many countries,
03:32 it becomes a technology transfer tool.
03:34 So better jobs,
03:35 higher paying jobs,
03:36 and certainly drawing on young people who have the skills for this digital economy.
03:40 Right?
03:41 So this is very interesting because
03:43 You mentioned energy.
03:45 This is infrastructure.
03:46 We talked about jobs.
03:47 You spoke about education and skills,
03:49 that's human development.
03:50 It seems to me that really mining
03:53 can move
03:55 back to the center of a lot of development agendas the institution is striving for.
04:01 Was that always the case,
04:02 or do you see some,
04:03 some,
04:03 some new shifts
04:04 and developments in that regard?
04:06 I think there's been a lot of shifts in regard to minerals development.
04:10 We need sustainable supply.
04:13 The demand as a result of broad economic growth,
04:15 urbanization,
04:16 poverty reduction,
04:17 and of course the energy transition.
04:19 Has led to this increased demand for minerals going forward.
04:23 A lot of the mineral resources that one needs to develop
04:27 to meet objectives for 2050
04:29 are in the ground today in more remote places.
04:32 And so
04:32 what has come to the forefront again is this
04:34 notion of mining as a driver of infrastructure development.
04:38 And being able to use
04:40 those mining operations to
04:42 improve the livelihoods of people in those regions
04:45 through the introduction of shared use infrastructure.
04:47 So that's an important trend that is back at the forefront.
04:49 It was always there,
04:50 but I think there's been a very strong recognition of this.
04:53 And an excellent illustration
04:55 is where we've done what we call the power of the mine in Africa.
04:58 Looking at where are these resources
05:00 can we develop energy
05:02 to help
05:03 uh the development of those resources and then can that
05:06 have a positive externality to the communities around them to electrify
05:10 and to improve their overall quality of life.
05:13 Right,
05:13 so
05:15 another aspect is,
05:16 um,
05:17 the latest initiative under the Extractors Global unit together with our
05:21 Global Trust Fund EGPS
05:24 is the RISE initiative,
05:25 resilient inclusive supply chain enhancement.
05:29 So value chains,
05:30 diversification of value chains is also something that
05:33 we are trying to help governments with.
05:36 Where do you see that potential in our client countries and how do you,
05:39 how do you see this going and,
05:41 and where is this going to eventually lead us?
05:44 We use that rise Trust fund to take
05:47 a wide lens on this development challenge
05:49 and so
05:50 we look at the sourcing of critical minerals,
05:53 the processing of critical minerals,
05:55 and then the demand centers and the
05:57 manufacture of energy transition technologies and
06:00 digital technologies that we all use.
06:03 If you think about this demand for metals,
06:06 the development of a new mine from exploration
06:10 to production
06:11 is taking on average longer than 17 years,
06:13 and that is averaged across
06:16 very high performing
06:17 countries with strong
06:19 institutional governance
06:20 and countries that
06:21 I think there's still space for
06:22 more strengthening of their institutional governance.
06:25 So
06:26 that's a track that the world will follow,
06:28 but in parallel to that,
06:29 I think we have to think more about the circular economy.
06:32 And over many decades,
06:34 a great number of mines have left
06:36 waste piles
06:37 on surface that have metals that we can extract today using modern technologies
06:42 and current market prices.
06:44 And so I think that the world is going to rely increasingly
06:47 on harvesting all of that as we go forward
06:50 while pursuing this longer term objective.
06:53 So the rise
06:54 creates a lens on
06:56 the sourcing,
06:57 pulling new metals out of the ground and minerals
06:59 out of the ground in a very sustainable way.
07:01 But also the circular economy,
07:03 which is so important.
07:04 And then as we've always done,
07:05 we will make sure that across that value chain we address regulatory barriers
07:10 and there's strong policies
07:11 for value addition in country.
07:14 And this is a second,
07:14 I think,
07:15 point that I want to emphasize that
07:17 many countries now want that value addition.
07:19 And so we will think about
07:20 the technologies to allow them
07:23 to get to primary products and even downstream into the manufacture of much needed
07:28 energy transition metals and minerals going forward.
07:31 One additional point
07:32 I think to raise is that
07:34 many old mines
07:35 actually will have new lives because if they're
07:38 a brown field closed operation they can be repurposed
07:41 and you can put a solar array out there together with storage
07:45 and so what was a mine can actually become a generator of renewable energy
07:49 and we're seeing this in many places where we're involved in the coal transition.
07:52 And so
07:53 these mines actually will be very long lived.
07:56 They take a long time to develop,
07:57 but they will again and again we will return to them to harvest more and more
08:01 for the development challenges that we all want to meet.
08:05 So really fascinating,
08:06 Michael,
08:06 um,
08:07 as you describe,
08:08 uh,
08:08 you know,
08:09 first of all,
08:09 alternative options to go about the upstream production,
08:12 but then also what are the potential development stages and segments
08:16 in the mid to downstream
08:18 now.
08:19 As you mentioned,
08:20 we have a trust fund and that is helping us to do a lot of
08:24 groundwork
08:26 and laying the seeds,
08:27 but ultimately I think we also are doing lending operations
08:31 to bring countries more important
08:34 amounts of capital they will need to build capacity
08:37 in their frameworks and eventually also participating in investments,
08:40 so mobilizing capital.
08:42 How do you currently see
08:44 what is going on in industry?
08:46 Any trends?
08:46 What's your view?
08:47 Is is the capital following
08:50 what we are seeing the new,
08:52 the new initiative,
08:53 the new
08:54 boom in minerals and metals?
08:56 How do you see this in our client countries?
08:58 I think there's an interesting paradox out there,
09:00 Robert.
09:01 On one side,
09:02 we have an increased demand for minerals,
09:04 sustainable supply.
09:05 On the other side,
09:06 we're seeing
09:07 a great difficulty in the industry to access capital
09:11 for development of these new operations
09:14 and so probably a role of the bank going forward
09:17 is to help to de-risk
09:19 investors and the first space in which we can
09:21 do that is to improve the institutional governance.
09:24 We probably will take a more transactions approach
09:27 so that we can bring in all of the different pieces of the World Bank.
09:31 We have
09:31 the extractives unit within
09:33 IBRD IDA.
09:35 We've got MIGA,
09:36 Multilateral Investment Guarantee Agency,
09:38 IFC International Finance Corporation,
09:41 and so it's going to take that village of
09:43 all of the different parts of the bank working together
09:45 to de-risk investors,
09:47 to work with governments,
09:48 to have clarity of policy,
09:50 to ensure that it is a non-discretionary regulatory environment.
09:53 And that it's very predictable for investors because these
09:56 are large investments that will take a long time
09:59 and we have to ensure that
10:00 the investors have comfort to make
10:02 these large capital investments that are required.
10:06 Very good.
10:07 So definitely the barrier of risk is there for the capital.
10:10 We have a lot of tools of the World Bank Group and with partners
10:13 to help with that.
10:14 Another challenge I think that may also block the capital flows is the
10:20 volatility of prices.
10:22 I think we see this all the time.
10:24 and
10:25 you're just coming from a from a
10:28 forum we organized
10:29 around headwinds
10:33 to these capital trends.
10:35 What's your view about the influence of prices on
10:38 unlocking more investment for the industry and for development?
10:42 There's a lot of price volatility right now and
10:45 it's going commodity by commodity.
10:47 We have
10:48 a leapfrog in technologies,
10:49 so a mineral that is in high demand today.
10:53 May be overtaken by a new technology
10:55 so that tomorrow the focus goes on to this other this other technology.
10:59 I think that we have to recognize that a
11:01 lot of the critical metals and minerals that we need
11:04 for economic development
11:06 are associated with the production of major metals.
11:09 And so as long as we have a strong
11:11 floor price on those major metals
11:13 and the right technologies to harvest either co-products or byproducts,
11:17 which are these other critical minerals,
11:19 we're probably going to be OK.
11:21 If
11:21 we should find that
11:23 there's a major global recession as we've experienced before,
11:26 certainly there will be a scaling back,
11:27 but these investments are quite resilient.
11:30 They they invest for the long term
11:32 and short term price shock
11:34 certainly influences the output the next year,
11:36 but the capital is invested,
11:38 it's in the ground,
11:38 and these mines
11:40 are established and built to withstand some of those price shocks.
11:44 So very clear that
11:48 the volatility is also influenced by demand and supply of end products,
11:53 but also by the supply and availability
11:56 of minerals themselves.
11:58 A lot of our client countries these days
12:00 are rediscovering minerals and they are going into
12:03 ventures to try to ramp up production.
12:05 Yet at the same time,
12:06 a lot of our shareholder countries are also
12:09 identifying minerals as a very critical input factor to their industries,
12:13 and they are also venturing out.
12:15 Do you see any challenge that at some
12:17 point we're going to have too much overproduction
12:19 on the longer term trend,
12:20 or do you see that
12:22 any developments today have their place and justification
12:25 if you take a long term view?
12:28 To the first part of your question,
12:29 we have returned to a multi-polar world,
12:31 and so for the last couple of decades it was a
12:34 A globally interconnected world on mineral trade,
12:37 we've gone back to more of a multi-polar world
12:39 where
12:40 some of our client countries,
12:42 emerging market developing countries,
12:43 are going to partner strategically
12:45 with some other countries,
12:47 perhaps the developed countries,
12:48 in terms of creating value chains.
12:50 So one of the first things that we probably will see
12:53 is a series of strategic partnerships to move metals.
12:57 And minerals around
12:58 as they go through the processing of the value
13:00 chain to different centers for different stages of processing
13:03 and that be a good,
13:04 that can be a very good thing in a region.
13:06 We're working with ASEAN and certain ASEAN states have
13:09 competitive advantages in different pieces of the value chain
13:11 and so I think that we will probably see that.
13:14 The second part of this is that
13:17 probably
13:18 we will.
13:19 Recognize that a number of global
13:22 suppliers
13:24 are more integrated with global producers of technologies.
13:27 And so across that value chain we are working through the RISE initiative
13:31 to connect investors on the supply of sustainable minerals
13:34 and on the demand,
13:35 and that demand can be in the automotive sector,
13:39 technology sectors for phones and other digital equipment,
13:41 right?
13:42 And so that there is a less shock in the market
13:45 if you see recessions or other changes in the global demand picture.
13:49 They're more integrated across that.
13:51 And so with the rise,
13:52 we are creating
13:53 investment facilitation platforms that share knowledge,
13:56 but importantly connect
13:57 the supply and the demand together so that we have a more integrated,
14:01 not just value chain,
14:02 but set of investors.
14:04 So if I understand correctly what you're saying,
14:07 we will continue to observe more fluctuations.
14:10 We will see more shifts of value chains in geographies.
14:15 Clearly understanding geology doesn't shift.
14:17 It is the metals or the minerals.
14:19 Where they are,
14:20 but there are options now to diversify value
14:23 chains and bringing markets closer to the resources,
14:28 and all of this will take into account
14:30 the wider trade policies and also the attractiveness of investment locations.
14:36 Now
14:37 You have been around for quite some time,
14:40 as I said in the introduction.
14:43 And
14:44 I think it's fair to say that
14:46 the World Bank is quite unique in the sense that we maintained
14:49 a global extractives unit over decades despite the fact that mining was not
14:54 really for a long time
14:56 such an attractive
14:58 sector to look after.
15:00 Where do you see
15:02 the multilateral
15:04 development banks
15:06 and development partners going with this mining agenda?
15:09 Is this here to stay,
15:10 or do you see
15:12 that this may
15:13 be something short-lived,
15:15 a boom,
15:16 and then and then we will go back into a dormant stage?
15:19 It is an advantage to have as many years in the industry as I probably have had.
15:24 I think we're in an unprecedented time.
15:26 I think there has been a structural shift
15:28 where
15:29 this demand going forward
15:31 is certainly driven by the energy transition,
15:33 but I want to underscore again that
15:36 as we do poverty reduction
15:37 and there's urbanization
15:39 and those people get access to infrastructure,
15:42 energy infrastructure,
15:43 which is a driver of development
15:45 and the transportation sector.
15:47 This overall demand will increase as long as we and
15:50 the World Bank get that poverty reduction going forward,
15:52 right?
15:53 So I think that
15:54 from now until 2050,
15:56 it's probable
15:57 that the markets will continue to increasingly demand a sustainable supply
16:02 of metals and minerals.
16:03 Certainly a global shock as we had with COVID
16:06 can create short-term disruptions to that,
16:09 but the long term trend is certainly there,
16:10 and I expect that to continue going forward.
16:14 So you see a long term future under the premise that this
16:17 time around we and our clients and all stakeholders get it right,
16:21 and that includes making it a sustainable solution and inclusive growth
16:26 and providing a real economic base for countries' development.
16:30 Is that fair to say?
16:31 It is fair.
16:31 We really have to ensure that this time
16:34 we have an equitable distribution of benefits.
16:38 And so
16:39 I have often said you can sum up the mining industry in a single sentence.
16:43 Which is that these large scale mining operations do not succeed
16:47 or a community fails.
16:49 And so we have to ensure that we integrate
16:52 the sustainable supply of metals and minerals
16:54 into the surrounding economy,
16:56 right?
16:57 And that can be on physical infrastructure side or in social infrastructure side.
17:01 So we have
17:02 education programs,
17:03 health programs at the community level.
17:05 The mining companies are contributing to that certainly
17:09 we can help to align programs
17:11 and use community driven.
17:12 Development and other structures that the World Bank introduces locally
17:16 to so we have this sort of very connected ecosystem
17:19 where the mine is not an enclave industry
17:21 but rather highly integrated with the surrounding
17:24 and as you said,
17:25 it's inclusive.
17:26 We have processes for consultation,
17:28 we have processes for grievances,
17:30 and we make sure
17:31 that the community members have the skills.
17:33 that they need to access these jobs
17:35 and that of course leads to longer
17:37 term education because the young people certainly,
17:39 as I said before,
17:40 will need more digital skills as these
17:42 mining operations become more automated and sophisticated.
17:45 But certainly in many places of the world we see this,
17:48 and it's a very achievable target and one that
17:51 I think we are certainly contributing to it.
17:54 I'm very proud of the bank
17:55 in taking that holistic approach.
17:57 So also a good reminder that
18:00 it's a long term industry.
18:01 It will be evolving.
18:02 So also a call to us and many other partners to stay agile,
18:06 to stay
18:07 adaptable,
18:08 and go with the demands of our clients.
18:10 Today we are doing a lot of sector development,
18:13 but as you also hinted earlier,
18:15 there may be a space where we need to do more
18:17 or help with investments in mining projects themselves,
18:20 helping governments with their equity shares and so forth.
18:23 Maybe
18:24 on the second to last aspect that I wanted to address.
18:27 In terms of instruments,
18:29 the World Bank itself,
18:30 you mentioned,
18:31 the World Bank itself,
18:33 do we have any tools to help governments
18:36 with their investment responsibilities into mining projects themselves?
18:40 Yes,
18:41 governments increasingly
18:43 are partners
18:45 in the development
18:46 of these resources and so
18:48 one of the changes that we have seen in the last few years
18:51 is that governments are quite active in the sector itself
18:54 and that of course leads to them having to make at times capital contributions.
18:59 It could be an infrastructure,
19:00 regional infrastructure.
19:02 The project sponsors are always responsible for
19:04 the infrastructure inside of its mine.
19:06 But the government may be bringing
19:08 a water system,
19:10 a road,
19:10 a rail system,
19:11 ICT,
19:12 and other things to the gate of that operation.
19:15 And so I think from the World Bank side
19:17 we have to think about how do we do that so it serves not just one operation,
19:21 but the regions around it and if it could catalyze other resources so they can share
19:26 in the use and the cost and repayment of that infrastructure that's introduced.
19:31 And so that's one big space.
19:33 Another change that's taken place is governments
19:36 increasingly are taking
19:37 bigger equity shares in these operations,
19:40 and so
19:41 it's challenging for them because certainly if there's a cost overrun.
19:45 They are responsible along with the other project sponsors
19:48 and so we have to think about structured financial solutions
19:51 that allow them
19:52 to meet all of their other needs on education,
19:55 health,
19:56 all sectors of the economy,
19:57 and that we're not taking away from those
19:59 so that they can make these equity contributions
20:02 in these large mining operations.
20:04 So I think going forward we need some structured financial solutions.
20:07 We can do credit enhancement if they have a state enterprise
20:10 that allows them to access capital markets.
20:13 At a lower cost of capital,
20:15 more favorable borrowing terms,
20:16 perhaps.
20:17 So I think there's a lot of space for us to think about these structured solutions,
20:21 recognizing that we can't take away from other parts of the economy
20:24 just to meet this need.
20:26 So in other words,
20:27 you're saying the classic ways that the industry
20:29 has been operating in developing countries or elsewhere
20:31 is taxes and royalties are a standard that we always should look and advise on,
20:37 but beyond that,
20:38 look at alternative ways of leveraging
20:41 the revenue flows that will be generated from this mining
20:45 and that could be used to also help governments mobilize additional financing.
20:49 Through enclave structures or World Bank guarantees
20:53 that could basically help them mobilize the needed
20:55 investments on adjacent infrastructure or the mines themselves.
20:58 Absolutely.
20:59 In fact,
21:00 I'd like your summary of that because
21:02 we
21:03 think about the direct.
21:04 So how do we help these governments to make
21:06 direct contribution and participation.
21:09 One of the jobs of our unit and other parts of the bank,
21:11 our prosperity colleagues and others,
21:13 is to think about the indirect
21:15 and the induced
21:16 so that we
21:17 help the government to derive
21:19 the full tax,
21:20 non-tax
21:21 revenues and benefits from resource development.
21:24 And so we are purposefully now widening our lens
21:26 a little bit from where we were before.
21:28 We've often had long conversations on the fiscal regime.
21:31 What is the appropriate tax rate,
21:32 royalty rate,
21:33 as you said.
21:34 But now we're looking more and more
21:36 at those multipliers.
21:37 Something that happens inside the mine,
21:39 one job creates
21:41 1x jobs outside the mine,
21:43 and then in the broader community where it has those broad social impacts.
21:47 And so we have to take that very holistic view
21:49 on understanding the totality of tax,
21:51 non-tax revenues.
21:54 So hopefully if we get it right,
21:56 we are not doing what has been done for the last 100
21:58 plus years from pit to port and off go the minerals,
22:02 and countries don't see much more benefit than that,
22:04 but maximize the value to countries' economies,
22:08 and the development for their people
22:11 in their own territory
22:13 or their subregions.
22:14 That really should be the goal.
22:17 Alongside value chains,
22:19 clever financial structures.
22:20 This seems to be the mission we are on.
22:23 Remains for me just to ask you one last question.
22:26 Is it critical
22:28 strategic
22:29 minerals
22:31 critical or what do you think is the appropriate name for it?
22:34 That's,
22:34 that's great
22:35 you know,
22:36 as I said before,
22:38 these minerals are essential and vital
22:40 to economic development.
22:42 They are in many ways you have
22:44 organic materials
22:46 and then you have these minerals,
22:47 right?
22:48 They are essential to economic development.
22:51 And
22:51 I think we need to find a term that reflects that poverty reduction,
22:55 urbanization,
22:56 access to energy,
22:58 transport,
22:58 the,
22:59 the uh a more improved living environment.
23:01 They are systemic
23:02 to our way of life and so I think we have to find a term that
23:06 that reflects
23:07 that they're essential,
23:08 they're strategic,
23:09 they're critical,
23:10 they're vital,
23:11 right?
23:12 I'll,
23:12 we'll continue to work on that,
23:13 Robert.
23:14 It's enormous pleasure.
23:15 Thank you so much,
23:16 Michael,
23:16 for sharing all this insight in the series.
23:19 I hope you enjoyed it too.
23:21 And we will come
23:22 back with another
23:24 item in the series,
23:25 uh,
23:25 shortly,
23:26 but for now,
23:27 Michael,
23:28 it was a pleasure having you
23:30 and best of luck to all of us.
23:32 Thank you very much.
23:33 Thank you for having me.
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Launched by the World Bank’s Extractives team, Mining Forward is a new video series spotlighting the evolving role of mining in today’s world. Through expert conversations, the series unpacks the opportunities, challenges, and innovations reshaping mineral value chains—from infrastructure and finance to governance and sustainability.
🎙️ Episode 1: Mining as a Development Driver: Linking Resources to Results
Premiering during the 2025 World Bank Spring Meetings, this first episode features Michael Stanley, Global Lead, Mining, World Bank, in conversation with Robert Schlotterer, Global Head of the Extractives Global Unit. Together, they explore how mining—when approached strategically—can:
- Expand energy access through shared infrastructure
- Create higher-value, tech-enabled jobs
- Drive economic transformation through local value chains
- Promote sustainability and community inclusion
- De-risk and mobilize investment through smart financing
👉 Watch now to explore how mining can power development and deliver real results for people and planet.