00:01 So good morning.
00:01 I'm Bernard Meyers,
00:03 a senior public sector specialist at the World Bank's
00:06 Washington headquarters,
00:07 and I work with
00:10 colleagues in the governance practice,
00:12 including Erskazinsky to
00:14 support disaster resilience and responsive
00:17 public financial management in the Caribbean
00:19 through the Canada-Caribbean Resilience Facility.
00:23 Uh,
00:23 well,
00:23 one of our goals is to bring examples of international good
00:26 practice from both within and from outside the Caribbean region.
00:31 To give inspiration to policy reforms that
00:34 you may be considering in your countries.
00:36 This week we have the opportunity to hear Ireland's experience
00:40 in building capacity for Public Investment Management PIM
00:43 and integrating climate resilience into the planning and budgeting processes.
00:48 Um,
00:48 I'd like to welcome the officers from the Caribbean
00:53 who've really carved out time
00:55 today to connect
00:56 to the meeting,
00:57 and I hope that you will share your own suggestions for future,
01:00 um,
01:01 knowledge exchanges,
01:02 uh,
01:02 as we plan those.
01:04 A recording of this event will be available afterwards for those who joined,
01:07 uh,
01:07 and there's a second,
01:09 uh,
01:09 part of the series with Ireland that's going to take place Thursday,
01:13 and there'll be a reminder about that.
01:16 Perhaps I can give a just a brief
01:18 overview of the agenda.
01:20 In today's webinar,
01:22 we'll hear about Ireland's experience in building and sustaining
01:26 capacity for effective public investment management,
01:30 um,
01:30 the impact of economic volatility on planning capacity,
01:34 and how climate considerations are integrated in the planning process.
01:40 Well,
01:40 opening remarks from Gail Richardson,
01:43 the World Bank's portfolio Operations Manager for the Caribbean,
01:47 to be followed by a brief 10-minute presentation from Tom Ferris,
01:51 a former senior economist from the Department of Transport in Ireland,
01:54 to give some institutional context to
01:56 Ireland's evolution and public investment management.
01:59 And Tom will then lead a discussion with our 3 panelists from the Irish government,
02:04 Kevin Meaney,
02:06 And Ken Clearly from the Department of Public Expenditure,
02:09 National Plan
02:11 uh
02:12 Delivery
02:13 and Reform,
02:14 it's a long name.
02:15 And Evan McMahon from the Department of Environment,
02:18 Climate and Communications.
02:22 Then immediately after the panel,
02:24 we want to hand the floor to our officials from the Caribbean
02:27 to share
02:29 just a little bit of your own challenges and successes
02:32 in building capacity for effective PIMM and integrating
02:36 climate change considerations.
02:38 Uh,
02:38 we aim to save about 20 to 25 minutes for sharing country experiences
02:42 and any questions you have for the panelists,
02:44 and then Alberto Leighton,
02:45 the practice manager for governance and public sector institutions.
02:49 Uh,
02:49 we'll close the meeting with his observations
02:52 and reflections.
02:54 So with that,
02:55 I'd like to invite
02:57 Gyle
02:58 to give her
03:00 Uh,
03:01 opening remarks.
03:02 Uh,
03:03 Gayle,
03:04 over to you.
03:05 Thank you.
03:05 Can you hear me?
03:08 Yes,
03:08 we can.
03:08 OK,
03:09 terrific.
03:10 Glad to be a part of,
03:12 and given the list of speakers and uh discussions
03:16 that we're planning to have for this meeting,
03:18 I would very much like to keep my,
03:20 um,
03:21 opening remarks very short.
03:23 I'm eager to hear what you have to say.
03:25 So yes,
03:26 and Gail Richardson,
03:27 I manage the portfolio of the World Bank in the Caribbean,
03:31 and,
03:31 um.
03:32 I'm excited about this
03:34 panel discussion and this topic because it is the highest priority for us as the
03:41 World Bank Group and what we can do to support countries that are grappling.
03:46 We all saw the challenges that we faced just this year with
03:50 Hurricane Adalia,
03:52 Tropical Storm Ian,
03:54 the um
03:55 most recent one with
03:57 a Category 5 hurricane.
03:59 Otis in Mexico that led to the loss of,
04:02 of life.
04:04 I was in Dominica on October 21st when we had tropical storms Tammy come through and
04:12 although the damage was minimal,
04:14 uh,
04:14 the,
04:15 the pain or the fear that you experienced uh from,
04:19 from people living in Dominica was profound and
04:23 A real eye opener for me.
04:25 So we all know about the importance of quality infrastructure
04:29 and also mitigating the impacts of climate change more broadly,
04:33 but quality public infrastructure is really key to our strategy to
04:38 um
04:39 both minimize the impact of these storms and provide a,
04:43 a safe environment for the people on the ground.
04:47 So,
04:47 uh,
04:48 within this context,
04:49 I want to thank
04:51 Profusely,
04:52 the Canadian
04:53 Caribbean Resilience Facility,
04:55 CRF as we call it,
04:57 and it has been uh not only for hosting this this seminar,
05:02 but also for
05:03 the,
05:04 the
05:05 Um,
05:06 making available some extremely important resources that
05:09 have been used for providing technical assistance,
05:12 capacity building,
05:14 developing our partnerships,
05:16 and,
05:16 um,
05:17 it's been instrumental in delivering just in time
05:20 support to accelerate the implementation of projects and bolster the resiliency.
05:26 Uh,
05:27 so Canada's commitment obviously goes beyond the,
05:30 the CRI,
05:31 um,
05:31 the CRF,
05:32 and,
05:33 and we're very grateful for their public,
05:36 um,
05:37 and their public positions and reminders to the
05:40 global community about the importance of this topic.
05:43 Most recently,
05:44 Prime Minister Trudeau
05:46 in the meeting with the,
05:48 um,
05:48 last month's Canada CARICOM discussion summit in Ottawa.
05:52 Um,
05:53 reaffirming Canada's commitment and,
05:55 and indeed we,
05:56 we,
05:57 we are hopeful that more countries will join in this endeavor.
06:02 Um,
06:03 so I very much want to welcome to the government of Ireland to this conversation,
06:08 so we're very well aware of your commitment and dedication to
06:13 this topic,
06:14 and indeed,
06:15 we're,
06:15 I'm personally quite intrigued by
06:18 the A Better World,
06:20 which seems to provide a nice framework for engagement and,
06:24 and
06:24 a demonstration of the government of Ireland's commitment to the topic,
06:28 these topics,
06:29 a range of topics,
06:30 but
06:31 Not only having a better world
06:34 prepared and released,
06:35 but also the,
06:37 the commitment of the
06:38 government of Ireland to increase its
06:41 financing for development and,
06:44 um,
06:45 you know,
06:45 and,
06:46 and more broadly,
06:47 and we're,
06:48 we're eager to deepen our engagement on this particular topic.
06:54 So,
06:54 um,
06:55 we're,
06:56 we're happy to have this knowledge exchange
06:59 experience
07:00 being
07:01 taking place,
07:02 and I'm very grateful to Bernard and the team for
07:05 organizing it.
07:06 I'm eager to hear from the countries themselves too about
07:10 their thoughts and reflections and what we can do to,
07:13 to better assist them.
07:15 Um,
07:15 so I wanna just end by reaffirming our commitment to the Caribbean countries to
07:24 support their efforts in this agenda of greater resiliency.
07:28 Um,
07:29 express again our appreciation to the government of Canada for their
07:33 tremendous support and
07:36 interest in our part on
07:38 expanding our,
07:39 the,
07:39 our engagement with the government of Ireland.
07:42 So let's have this seminar be a,
07:44 a terrific and important step forward.
07:47 Thank you so much.
07:48 I'm eager to hear the panelists.
07:59 Tom,
08:00 uh,
08:01 feel free to,
08:01 I think,
08:02 uh,
08:03 Mark will be projecting your slides.
08:06 Well,
08:06 that's fine.
08:07 Yeah,
08:07 great.
08:07 So we start with the first.
08:09 Good morning everybody,
08:10 uh,
08:10 lovely to be here.
08:12 Um,
08:13 and
08:14 so we start with the first slide.
08:21 And the second slide,
08:23 in,
08:24 in,
08:24 in making my short presentation,
08:26 this little 6 sections.
08:29 Two little sections on the EU,
08:31 2 on the fiscal crisis,
08:33 one on significant changes that I think
08:36 people will be interested in,
08:38 and the last is planning for the future.
08:40 My big point there is,
08:42 uh,
08:42 things keep moving,
08:44 things don't stand still.
08:45 But let me give you a very
08:47 quick historical context.
08:49 60 years ago,
08:50 the Irish economy was very inward looking.
08:52 Net emigration and population were in decline.
08:56 And that reflected limited employment and weak income generating capacity.
09:01 But,
09:01 there was a seminal report in 1957
09:04 written by
09:05 Doctor Ken Whittaker,
09:06 who was head of the Department of Finance,
09:09 and he argued that,
09:10 quote,
09:10 sooner or later,
09:12 protection will have to go
09:14 and the challenge of free trade,
09:15 accepted.
09:17 And that's what happened.
09:18 It did take some time.
09:19 It wasn't easy.
09:21 Free trade agreement with
09:23 Britain,
09:24 membership of the EU
09:26 in 1973,
09:27 and
09:28 they helped transform the Irish economy,
09:31 helped greatly by inward foreign direct investment.
09:34 That was quite a catalyst.
09:36 And Ireland's Industrial Development Authority played
09:39 an extremely important role in attracting
09:42 foreign firms into Ireland.
09:45 Also,
09:45 the raising educational attainment of the labor force
09:49 influenced greatly the growth of the economy.
09:52 But it was the EU membership that was that extra ingredient slide to.
09:57 And
09:59 there
10:00 is this phrase we use a lot,
10:02 capacity building,
10:04 but it was the opening up of markets,
10:06 the single market in the European Union,
10:08 and then some
10:10 significant funds from the EU as well as the adoption of the euro currency.
10:15 But let you,
10:16 let me give you my definition of capacity building.
10:19 It's the ability of people and organizations to improve
10:23 their management skills and expertise
10:26 in order to manage the areas of work for which they're responsible,
10:30 but we can all do better in terms of improving,
10:34 creating,
10:35 and adapting our professional capacity over time.
10:38 And that's where the advent of the EU meant that
10:40 many changes and innovations impacted on the Irish public sector.
10:45 Take just one innovation,
10:47 the EU
10:48 set up a dedicated evaluation unit in the late 1990s in Ireland,
10:53 and that was used to oversee the allocation of EU funds
10:56 for the national development and operational program.
11:00 But more importantly,
11:01 that unit advised and assisted
11:04 the Irish civil servants and the commission
11:06 on the evaluation of EU structural Funds,
11:10 and that unit also coordinated and promoted best practice.
11:14 When I was preparing this seminar,
11:16 I went and dug around,
11:17 still could find a hard copy of
11:19 Working rules and Cost-benefit analysis 1999.
11:23 Next slide,
11:23 please.
11:26 And
11:26 that's where
11:27 the real
11:30 benefit
11:31 had come.
11:31 The funds are great,
11:33 but it's the fact that institutional changes had to occur as well.
11:37 That's where the Irish civil services got their wake-up call,
11:41 and I was
11:42 one
11:43 there at that stage.
11:45 We had to quickly learn what was required
11:48 to manage EU funds to be part of a process that hadn't been there previously.
11:52 So it was a transformative effect
11:55 that was
11:57 experienced by the Irish Civil Service.
11:59 As the poorest member of the then EU,
12:02 Ireland in 1993 had been weak in terms of negotiating ability,
12:07 but its rights
12:08 as a member state were enshrined in the EU laws that they'd signed up to,
12:13 and the diverse membership of the EU meant that
12:15 conditions could be formed to further Irish economic interest.
12:18 So that participation in the structures
12:21 of the European Union helped develop
12:24 a broad awareness and capability.
12:26 lessons were learned,
12:28 experiences were gained.
12:30 In short,
12:31 capacity was being built up through the Irish public sector.
12:36 On the next slide.
12:39 If I may.
12:40 And that just,
12:41 I will very briefly,
12:42 it's to look at it to show that where one had been in,
12:45 in a stovepipe to an extent in,
12:48 in a ministry doing work,
12:49 suddenly you had to engage
12:51 using the guidelines,
12:53 doing the appraisal,
12:54 doing the planning,
12:55 and having
12:56 uh coordinating committees widely represented
13:00 at meetings where
13:02 things were evaluated.
13:03 So the circle was there in terms of the planning.
13:07 Uh,
13:07 the appraisal,
13:09 the building,
13:10 and then the back check to see how did we do.
13:13 And so we can move to the next slide.
13:17 The next slide is
13:18 recognizing that things didn't go perfectly for Ireland at all,
13:22 at all.
13:23 Well,
13:23 we're doing very well up to 2008,
13:26 export,
13:27 export-led growth was doing very well.
13:30 There came a change with the fact that from the year 2000,
13:35 growth was continuing,
13:36 but there was a property price and construction
13:40 bubble taking place.
13:42 And while the boom sustained employment and output growth until 2007,
13:47 when the banks fueled the boom,
13:49 they exposed themselves both to the funding and solvency pressures.
13:53 And then in
13:54 throughout the world,
13:55 there were fiscal crises.
13:58 Ireland's governments had brought about industrial peace with tax reductions,
14:02 but that
14:05 reduction in tax meant that the tax base was increasingly vulnerable to a turndown.
14:11 So,
14:11 among the triggers of a property bubble
14:14 was the sharp fall in interest rates followed by Euro membership.
14:18 And the Eurozone didn't serve Ireland well at that stage.
14:21 Signs that should have been there about excesses
14:24 were not
14:26 distributed
14:27 significantly.
14:29 And without those prompts,
14:30 Irish policymakers
14:31 neglected the basics of public finance,
14:34 wage policy,
14:35 and bank regulation.
14:37 And so we were badly hit by the financial crisis.
14:40 So I'll show you this slide,
14:41 we now move to the next one.
14:43 My,
14:44 my main reason for giving
14:46 this particular one because here we are back to capacity again.
14:50 Capacity
14:51 badly dented in that employment fell by 14% between 2007 and
14:56 2011.
14:58 The rate of unemployment soared,
15:00 an increase of 10%
15:02 between 2007 and 2011,
15:04 so
15:05 lots of emigration.
15:08 Lots of losses of skilled people.
15:11 And these negative developments affected Ireland greatly.
15:16 The loss of corporate memory,
15:18 the loss of skilled jobs and emigration.
15:21 Now,
15:21 recovery did take place.
15:23 Before I say something on that,
15:25 let me
15:26 go to the next slide,
15:27 which is
15:29 Ireland had to tolerate the troika.
15:31 The Troika came to town,
15:33 and the Troika being the IMF,
15:35 European Central Bank,
15:36 European Commission,
15:37 on a bailout of
15:38 nearly 70 billion.
15:41 Ireland met all the targets,
15:43 so there's a very
15:45 perceptible track record there.
15:46 Targets were set,
15:47 some of them quite onerous.
15:49 But they were met and Ireland successfully exited at the end of 2013,
15:55 and so the recovery started.
15:57 But it had had to
15:59 take on board many changes in terms of budgetary management,
16:02 multi-year fiscal planning,
16:05 and
16:06 a return to planning
16:09 in a national development planning context,
16:12 because of course investment had suffered during the fiscal crisis.
16:17 The very last line of that slide is significant
16:20 because it was with a piece of legislation,
16:22 the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council was set up,
16:25 and this is a body that still plays
16:28 a very important role in the Irish context.
16:30 Putting my own language on it,
16:32 there's a healthy tension
16:33 between the Irish Fiscal
16:35 Advisory Council and Irish government,
16:37 but it's there,
16:38 it,
16:38 it,
16:38 it is set in legislation
16:40 and it provides an independent assessment of official budgetary forecasts.
16:46 And fiscal policy objectives,
16:48 and indeed in very recent times
16:51 has produced a significant paper on climate change,
16:54 which allows me to move to my next slide.
16:58 And,
16:59 and we here it is
17:01 a new government
17:02 after the fiscal crisis.
17:05 And
17:05 since Gay used an acronym,
17:07 I,
17:07 I get,
17:08 I am allowed the freedom to use an acronym.
17:11 I would call thisender
17:13 because it's the Department of Public Expendituturn and Reform with the
17:16 added name of National Development Plan in the middle of it.
17:18 So.
17:19 At this juncture in 2011,
17:21 it was set up for the first time
17:23 following a splitting of the old Department of Finance into two.
17:27 Finance
17:28 continuing to do its important work on the economy,
17:31 fiscal and financial policy goals.
17:35 Deepender or as it was then,
17:37 deeper,
17:38 managing public expenditure
17:40 and also a very good innovation,
17:42 the Irish Government Economic and
17:44 Evaluation Service IGS
17:46 and I would suggest to people they may well like to visit that website
17:50 by Googling it after this seminar
17:53 because it's quite
17:55 a useful library of documents that they have produced in their work.
17:59 And that lets me move to my next slide.
18:03 And in my next slide,
18:04 we,
18:05 we do come to tender
18:07 and and it makes for this seminar being very topical and timely
18:12 because
18:14 so much continues to happen in this context.
18:17 The fact that the tender
18:19 uh with this new title
18:21 has a new function in terms of financing climate action
18:27 er
18:27 in particular.
18:29 Has been responsible as well for the
18:33 National Development plan,
18:35 because National Development Plan is a an important
18:39 tool
18:40 in the overall development of economic and fiscal policy.
18:45 The spending code,
18:47 and again,
18:49 having to think about language,
18:52 I felt it was worth
18:53 saying
18:54 a little about this so this clarity about what it is in Ireland.
18:58 It is a code.
19:00 Yes,
19:00 and it has rules,
19:02 procedures and guidance
19:04 for money stand
19:05 and value for money standards.
19:07 So it's guidance on how to carry out economic appraisal,
19:11 apply
19:12 the values one does in terms of test discount rates,
19:15 etc.
19:16 and it's incumbent on each accounting officer and each state agency
19:20 to ensure they comply with it
19:22 and and that they manage
19:24 capital budgets
19:25 overall and capital
19:28 individual projects as well.
19:30 And so to the next uh slide.
19:34 Which is my last slide.
19:36 And it is again capturing the fact that for the first time,
19:39 Ireland has a Climate Action Act,
19:42 which sets down specifically
19:45 responsibilities right through the public sector and indeed
19:49 into the private sector.
19:50 And for this,
19:51 I'm mentioning a third department,
19:53 Department of the Environment,
19:54 Climate and Communications,
19:56 and we're very happy to have
19:57 a representative from that department at this seminar.
20:01 Again,
20:01 in terms of timeliness,
20:02 it's very interesting
20:04 that in the budget
20:06 for 2024,
20:08 on the 10th of October,
20:09 there are two funds.
20:11 Which have been
20:13 introduced and they will be set down on legislation,
20:15 and there's a reference there,
20:17 people may wish to look afterwards at the
20:20 regulatory impact assessment carried out on them.
20:22 Basically,
20:23 in very simple terms,
20:24 it is
20:25 to
20:26 have a
20:28 means over a period of time in the economy to counteract and smooth
20:34 out any
20:36 downturns that might occur in the economy.
20:42 Thank you,
20:42 Bernard.
20:43 I have stuck to my 10 minutes.
20:48 Thank you very much,
20:49 Tom.
20:50 Uh,
20:50 before you begin the pan panel,
20:52 I just wanted to encourage,
20:53 uh,
20:54 our participants
20:55 to add any comments or questions in the chat.
20:59 Uh,
21:00 they will be seen by everyone.
21:01 If you
21:02 don't want them to be seen,
21:03 you could send them to BA,
21:05 BEA,
21:06 and,
21:07 um,
21:08 and she will,
21:08 uh,
21:09 share them anonymously.
21:11 Uh,
21:11 I also just wanna,
21:13 um,
21:14 Take a moment just to encourage you also uh to think about
21:18 after the panel,
21:19 uh,
21:19 to share your own country experiences,
21:21 uh,
21:22 perhaps you've had similar experiences as the Irish experience,
21:25 feel free to share those,
21:26 or also,
21:27 uh,
21:28 just challenges you may experience,
21:29 successes you may have experienced in building capacity
21:32 and integrating,
21:33 uh,
21:33 climate considerations.
21:34 So,
21:35 and with that,
21:35 uh,
21:36 over back to you,
21:37 Tom,
21:37 with the panel.
21:39 Thank you very much.
21:40 Um,
21:42 and I want to
21:43 thank our three panelists.
21:45 Uh,
21:45 they've been very helpful to me in preparing for this.
21:49 And so let me start into it with with with
21:52 a question
21:53 to Ken Cleary from Deepender using that acronym acronym again.
21:59 It is very interesting to note that your
22:02 minister Pascal Donoghue announced in the recent budget
22:06 that
22:08 New infrastructure guidelines will be published in
22:11 the coming weeks to ease the administrative burden
22:14 of approving the National Development Plan.
22:18 Unquote
22:19 Hey,
22:20 Ken,
22:20 could you tell us what impact the new guidelines are likely to have?
22:25 Yeah,
22:26 thanks,
22:26 Tom.
22:27 Uh,
22:27 first of all,
22:28 I'll just introduce myself to everyone if that's OK.
22:30 Hi everyone,
22:31 my name is Ken Cleary.
22:32 I'm a principal officer at the Department of Public Expenditure,
22:35 National Development Plan Delivery and Reform,
22:38 or,
22:38 uh,
22:38 as Tom calls itender,
22:40 which,
22:40 which is we also do here.
22:42 Um,
22:43 I'm responsible for the department's climate research
22:45 unit and I'm also responsible for expenditure management
22:48 on energy and environment and climate change matters,
22:51 uh,
22:52 in,
22:52 in the department,
22:53 so.
22:54 We tend to work very closely with uh my,
22:56 my climate research side and with my responsibility
22:59 for expenditure on energy and climate matters.
23:01 We work very closely with colleagues in the National Investment Office,
23:04 uh,
23:04 in,
23:05 in two respects.
23:06 One,
23:06 it's making sure that the public spending code,
23:08 these rules that we've talked about
23:09 here adequately incorporate climate considerations.
23:13 But to tend to make sure that they're fit
23:15 for purpose and that they can actually be used
23:17 uh effectively and efficiently by departments
23:20 as developing capital expenditure proposals.
23:22 And I think I get a really interesting view on that,
23:25 on the sort of the,
23:26 the
23:26 theory side of it working uh on climate research,
23:30 ensuring that it takes account of those climate considerations.
23:33 But then also with my role
23:34 dealing with the departments on energy and climate change,
23:37 making sure that what's actually developed
23:39 can be
23:40 workable and implementable.
23:41 In the time frame that we needed
23:42 to be for developing complex capital infrastructure projects
23:46 and really that's what the minister's quotes were all about.
23:49 It's making sure
23:52 that the thresholds
23:53 in terms of which the point at which we employ the level of analysis that we apply
23:58 is appropriate for the size of the project.
24:01 But then also making sure that the steps
24:03 and the accountability
24:04 for completing those various steps
24:06 are,
24:07 are,
24:07 are appropriately aligned and appropriately balanced.
24:10 So what we've changed really in the code and,
24:13 and are in the process of finalizing that at the moment
24:16 is to move it back to just two consent stages
24:19 for government
24:20 for those most significant projects.
24:23 The government will only look at projects twice.
24:25 They look at the preliminary business case.
24:27 And then they will look at the final business case.
24:30 And that's very important and it was a very
24:31 deliberate strategy to look at those two cases,
24:34 because the preliminary business case
24:36 is effectively
24:37 has the department settled on the right option to solve the policy
24:42 issue in question.
24:43 So this should be right at the start of the process
24:46 when the department is considering,
24:47 well we have a policy problem here,
24:50 we have a host of options here,
24:52 and here's our preliminary business case.
24:55 To select which one we think is the most appropriate
24:58 tool to solve the problem in question.
25:01 So that's where we want government approval,
25:03 so to ensure that that the entire government system is bought into this,
25:07 the proposed solution by the department being the
25:09 right one to address the policy point in,
25:12 in,
25:12 in,
25:12 in question.
25:13 And secondly then,
25:14 the only time the government will then be asked to look at the project again
25:17 is at the final business case stage of it,
25:20 when we've gone through the tendering
25:22 for the works
25:23 to support um the project in question.
25:25 So again,
25:26 when we're absolutely sure
25:27 this is the project we're delivering,
25:29 here's all the risks,
25:31 costs,
25:31 benefits,
25:32 and here's the pre-tender or here's the post tender actual prices
25:37 that
25:37 the government is going to pay for this project in question.
25:41 So simplifying that down to two steps.
25:43 Uh,
25:43 we're still going to have external reviews of major projects,
25:47 but we're changing the threshold
25:48 for those to be above 200 million.
25:51 And then the departments themselves
25:53 will be the approving authorities,
25:55 and they will have just 3 steps
25:58 in terms of that preliminary business case that
26:00 I've talked about will go to government.
26:01 Then also a step on pre-tender,
26:04 again,
26:05 are we certain that what we're selecting here in terms
26:07 of the works is the right mix of them,
26:09 and then at that final business case.
26:11 So 3 steps for the approving authority,
26:14 2 steps for government,
26:15 with an additional step at external review.
26:17 Where it's above 200 million.
26:18 So those are the main changes.
26:20 We think that still retains the core elements of what the code is seeking to do,
26:24 which is to lead to better policymaking
26:26 and better projects.
26:28 But we do think this streamlined approach will be more effective at doing that
26:33 and insurers,
26:34 um,
26:35 should streamline the pro the process of projects through the code.
26:38 The other changes that we're making to the code are largely climate related.
26:42 And in particular,
26:43 we're proposing to very significantly increase the shadow price of carbon
26:47 that we apply to investment appraisal.
26:51 We're doing this
26:52 because we price carbon in the,
26:54 in our public spending code and the new infrastructure guidelines
26:58 according to the marginal cost of abatement.
27:00 So in other words,
27:01 we look at the infrastructure over the lifetime of its of its existence,
27:06 um,
27:07 20 to 30 years is,
27:08 is,
27:08 is typical,
27:09 and we assess the impact on emissions that project will have
27:12 over that timeline.
27:14 We then price those emissions
27:16 according to what it will cost the government
27:19 to abate any extra greenhouse gas emissions that the project
27:22 may give rise to that marginal abatement cost of,
27:26 of abatement.
27:27 And that marginal cost then is linked to our climate targets.
27:31 Um,
27:31 we have very aggressive climate targets in Ireland,
27:34 which you'll hear a lot more from Evan,
27:36 uh
27:36 uh
27:37 uh
27:37 later,
27:38 and we have worked with research institutes and universities in Ireland.
27:42 To,
27:43 to know what the marginal abatement cost will be for achieving those targets,
27:47 and I said we're working that now into our public spending code,
27:50 and because our targets
27:51 have very significantly increased since the last time
27:54 we looked at our public spending code,
27:56 so too will the shadow price of carbon.
27:58 And we're proposing a shadow price of carbon that is,
28:01 I suppose,
28:01 multiples of the current level it is at the moment.
28:04 We've also been working with the OECD and
28:07 with some others on valuing climate adaptation.
28:09 Sounds like it'll be of a lot of interest to the,
28:12 to the Caribbean.
28:13 And we're also then going to look
28:15 at the role that ecosystem services and biodiversity
28:19 can play in the public spending code.
28:21 Although that will not be ready for this version of the public spending code,
28:24 that's a more medium term task,
28:27 but one that we do think
28:28 is,
28:28 is necessary
28:30 because with climate mitigation.
28:32 As I said,
28:32 it's quite easy to link monetary values to our climate targets.
28:36 Well,
28:36 easy is probably the wrong word,
28:37 but there's a theoretical framework for doing so,
28:40 and one that's readily understandable
28:42 by the practitioners of this code.
28:44 Um,
28:45 but in terms of how we might
28:46 provide for climate adaptation,
28:48 how we might value ecosystem services,
28:50 and how we might value biodiversity,
28:52 these are thornier problems,
28:53 which will not be in this round of revision of the code,
28:56 but something we've committed to,
28:57 to working to over,
28:58 over time.
28:59 So
28:59 that's a very quick favor,
29:01 Tom,
29:01 but I hope it gives you some sense
29:02 of,
29:03 of what we're doing at the moment.
29:06 That that's,
29:06 that's very helpful.
29:07 I'll just make one comment because it's something that I,
29:10 I keep an eye on,
29:12 and,
29:12 and it is.
29:14 Deepender,
29:14 forgive me for using the depender,
29:17 and your minister haven't been afraid to make changes when they have seen
29:22 under the heading of fit for purpose to make those changes,
29:25 albeit there have been changes made in December 2019
29:28 in the rollout.
29:30 Now these are changes that are required
29:32 and they are going to be made.
29:34 So let me move on to Kevin Meaney.
29:36 Kevin,
29:37 And the topicality on my question is that last Friday,
29:41 the IMF staff's concluding statement,
29:44 having
29:45 been on their mission to Ireland,
29:47 they stated that strengthening
29:49 public investment,
29:50 efficiency
29:52 and ensuring timely execution of the capital budget
29:56 will be critical to deliver
29:58 on the government's ambitious goals
30:00 in the national development plan
30:02 while ensuring value for money,
30:05 unquote.
30:06 Is your department doing enough to meet these aspirations from the IMF?
30:12 Tom,
30:13 yeah,
30:13 yeah,
30:13 and,
30:14 uh,
30:14 just give a quick introduction.
30:15 Yeah,
30:15 so Kevin Meaney,
30:16 uh,
30:17 from the same department as,
30:18 as,
30:18 as Ken,
30:19 so the Department of Public Expenditure,
30:21 NDP Delivery and reform.
30:23 So yeah,
30:24 no,
30:24 no thanks,
30:25 Tom.
30:25 Um,
30:25 yeah,
30:26 the,
30:27 so that particular question,
30:28 you know,
30:29 I say we,
30:29 we actually had a meeting with the IMF,
30:31 uh,
30:31 uh,
30:31 last week when they're,
30:32 they're over on their,
30:34 their,
30:34 uh,
30:35 visit,
30:36 uh,
30:36 uh,
30:36 and,
30:37 and reviewing,
30:38 I suppose,
30:38 the Irish
30:39 system and finances and,
30:40 uh.
30:41 So,
30:42 yeah,
30:42 I know,
30:42 we had a,
30:42 we had a chance to kind of go through
30:44 some of the issues as we see it and,
30:45 and maybe some of the solutions that we are trying to,
30:48 to put in place.
30:48 So,
30:49 yeah,
30:49 to your question,
30:50 absolutely,
30:51 um,
30:52 we're in the,
30:53 I suppose in,
30:53 in the initial process of,
30:55 of,
30:55 of reviewing and,
30:56 and,
30:57 and definitely reforming some of our processes.
30:59 So,
31:00 uh,
31:00 since,
31:01 uh,
31:02 around this time last year,
31:03 there was,
31:03 there was,
31:03 there was a change of government,
31:05 um,
31:06 the same party stayed in,
31:07 but the,
31:07 in terms of the,
31:08 the personnel.
31:09 They,
31:09 they changed roles.
31:10 So,
31:11 uh,
31:11 in particular,
31:12 our current ministers,
31:13 uh,
31:13 Mr.
31:13 Pascal Donoghue,
31:15 and he
31:15 came back to this department,
31:17 uh,
31:17 in,
31:17 in December of last year,
31:19 uh,
31:19 and alongside
31:21 the,
31:21 uh,
31:21 the,
31:22 um,
31:22 I suppose the,
31:23 the role,
31:23 the existing role,
31:25 uh,
31:25 as you,
31:25 you said out Tom earlier in your slides,
31:27 that the name of the department changed,
31:29 so we had the additional
31:31 term national Development Plan delivery.
31:32 So it was added into the title of our,
31:34 of our department.
31:36 So over
31:37 opening three months of this year,
31:39 um,
31:39 we set out,
31:40 um,
31:41 to,
31:41 to do a,
31:42 a,
31:42 a proposed approach to government exactly how we are
31:45 going to boost essentially national development plan delivery,
31:48 boost,
31:49 uh,
31:49 you know,
31:50 the efficiency,
31:51 uh,
31:51 and,
31:51 and the delivery of our national development plan and our,
31:54 and our public capital projects.
31:56 So we came forward in March of this year,
31:58 uh,
31:58 with,
31:58 with a proposed approach,
32:00 uh,
32:00 with 6 priority actions,
32:02 uh.
32:02 So Ken actually quite eloquently covered in
32:05 in the main action one,
32:06 which was
32:07 very much around our public spending code and,
32:09 and infrastructure guidelines,
32:11 Essentially trying to simplify the process,
32:13 uh,
32:14 but keeping all the rigor,
32:15 uh,
32:15 of,
32:16 you know,
32:16 the appraisal processes.
32:18 It was,
32:18 it was the amount of times I think it had to go for
32:20 external reviews and the amount of times I had to go for decision
32:23 was causing
32:24 some blockages,
32:25 uh,
32:25 particularly for big projects,
32:27 uh,
32:27 in the system and.
32:29 We had a review.
32:30 We,
32:30 we had quite a lot of dialogue with,
32:32 with
32:32 partner organizations,
32:34 departments,
32:34 uh,
32:35 and as Ken said,
32:36 I,
32:36 you know,
32:37 we,
32:37 we,
32:37 we put in some substantial changes
32:39 around the process.
32:41 Uh,
32:41 so hopefully that will see some,
32:43 you know,
32:43 as I say,
32:44 in terms of timelines to bring projects to approval for government,
32:48 some shortening of that process.
32:50 The second action was,
32:51 was centered very much on,
32:53 on public procurement,
32:54 uh,
32:54 and,
32:54 and,
32:54 and the kind of.
32:56 Dynamic between the public agencies and,
32:58 and,
32:58 and the private sector,
33:00 uh,
33:00 so
33:01 this seems to be a common issue
33:02 with many countries we've talked to,
33:04 talked to,
33:04 and I'm sure it may be an issue in,
33:06 in the Caribbean,
33:07 particularly
33:08 around,
33:09 you know,
33:09 the amount of construction inflation we've seen,
33:12 uh,
33:12 in recent,
33:13 particularly the last two years.
33:15 Uh,
33:15 there have been a lot of challenges to
33:17 delivery of public capital projects that were underway,
33:19 that,
33:20 that contracts have been signed on,
33:21 but even those that were close to,
33:23 you know,
33:23 close to signing or close to delivery.
33:25 So there's been substantial changes made to our,
33:27 our,
33:27 our procurement processes to
33:30 allow a greater level of price variation within,
33:32 within the clauses,
33:33 you know,
33:34 absolutely,
33:35 we want to get the best value for money,
33:36 uh,
33:37 for,
33:37 for projects,
33:38 but
33:39 in a,
33:39 in a,
33:39 in a state where there is double
33:41 figure inflation,
33:43 it's,
33:43 it's only fair that,
33:44 you know,
33:44 the public does share.
33:46 Some of that burden with,
33:46 with the,
33:47 with the,
33:47 with the developers and the and the and the
33:49 the construction industry,
33:51 uh,
33:51 so that there had to be essentially some move from,
33:53 from the public side.
33:55 And then there's,
33:56 there's a,
33:56 there's a longer term,
33:57 I think,
33:58 uh,
33:58 pathway of work
33:59 to kind of simplify the processes,
34:02 allow for more,
34:03 we would,
34:03 we would say more collaborative engagement between the two sides.
34:06 Uh,
34:07 and the final,
34:08 uh,
34:08 is the final stage is to,
34:10 you know,
34:11 try to increase productivity and efficiency,
34:13 particularly through digitization of the sector.
34:15 So,
34:16 in our contracts,
34:16 we will be demanding,
34:17 you know,
34:18 um,
34:19 The type of things such as building information modeling and,
34:22 and,
34:22 and,
34:22 you know,
34:22 good digital processes to allow us to understand
34:25 exactly what is going into our,
34:27 our buildings and,
34:28 and,
34:28 and,
34:28 and our infrastructure,
34:30 uh,
34:30 it will not only allow us to kind of track program delivery,
34:34 uh,
34:34 better,
34:35 but even touching on some of the points Ken raised,
34:37 it will actually allow us to track carbon embodiment,
34:40 uh,
34:40 better also.
34:41 And then the final,
34:42 just the final key action,
34:44 uh,
34:44 it's,
34:45 it's,
34:45 it's centered around our ministers now come.
34:48 Pretty much on board.
34:49 He,
34:49 he's now chairing this,
34:50 uh,
34:51 it's essentially the National Development Plan delivery board.
34:54 Previously it was,
34:55 it was at official level.
34:55 It was secretaries general,
34:57 but now it's the minister himself,
34:59 uh,
34:59 is chairing this group.
35:01 So actions that really are key to delivery and,
35:04 and I think one of the,
35:05 the critiques,
35:06 I think the IMF centered on was
35:09 our planning system.
35:10 So there's a series of actions around our,
35:12 under our planning system to try and improve.
35:15 Uh,
35:15 it's delivery improved the,
35:17 you know,
35:17 the decision making process and,
35:19 and the,
35:19 the speed at which it comes to decisions.
35:21 Um,
35:22 there's a new bill,
35:23 a new,
35:23 sort of new legislative underpinning for our planning system.
35:25 It
35:26 expected to go through the parliament
35:28 in the next couple of weeks,
35:29 uh,
35:30 and it will probably take a bit of time getting through the parliament,
35:32 but
35:33 it will be commenced very shortly.
35:35 Uh,
35:36 we're reviewing our national planning framework,
35:39 which is essentially our spatial strategy for,
35:41 for the country.
35:42 Uh,
35:43 uh,
35:43 that,
35:43 that's to be done every 6 years,
35:44 but we're commencing that this year,
35:46 uh,
35:46 and it's due to be
35:48 reviewed,
35:49 uh,
35:49 by around April next year.
35:51 And then very much there's a look at the wider,
35:54 uh,
35:54 capability within the planning system.
35:56 Do we have enough planners?
35:57 Do we have enough ecologists,
35:59 uh,
35:59 those types of skill sets.
36:01 To allow us to kind of make timely decisions,
36:04 uh,
36:04 on,
36:05 on planning
36:06 just to,
36:06 to give some context of the people are not,
36:09 uh,
36:09 as aware of Ireland's,
36:11 uh,
36:12 particular challenge we've had
36:13 is
36:14 we actually had a planning system.
36:16 Our,
36:16 our main consenting body is,
36:18 is on board for all the planning board.
36:20 It did,
36:21 uh,
36:22 it had a lot of personnel issues,
36:23 uh,
36:24 for,
36:24 for,
36:24 in the last 18 months,
36:25 and
36:26 it really,
36:26 uh,
36:27 it was whittled down to a very short amount of people on,
36:29 on that board.
36:31 Uh,
36:31 so decisions weren't happening,
36:32 happening in a timely manner.
36:34 And
36:35 in addition to that,
36:36 uh,
36:36 we've had some challenges,
36:38 uh,
36:38 and when we're focusing on climate,
36:39 we've had some challenges in the interaction between the planning system and
36:43 the environmental assessments and regulations that
36:46 need to be met,
36:47 uh.
36:48 As part of a planning process,
36:50 uh,
36:50 with
36:51 a lot of,
36:51 a significant level,
36:52 uh,
36:53 greater level of kind of legal
36:54 challenge and judicial reviews of planning decisions
36:57 that have been an issue.
36:58 So the planning,
36:59 the new planning bill,
37:00 you know,
37:01 some of the key targets is to obviously set a kind of
37:04 more,
37:04 uh,
37:04 critical timelines and,
37:05 and,
37:06 uh,
37:06 timely processes
37:07 by which those,
37:08 those approvals can take place.
37:10 And then just,
37:10 just
37:11 center on two final actions that,
37:13 that the minister himself is kind of leading on.
37:16 One is around for very much around public sector delivery,
37:18 and I know Tom,
37:19 you've,
37:19 you know,
37:20 touched on
37:21 things like IGs and,
37:22 and
37:22 the skill sets that we do have,
37:23 uh,
37:23 in the public system.
37:25 We still have,
37:26 it's,
37:26 it,
37:26 it,
37:26 it's fair to say a shortage of critical skill set in the public system.
37:31 Now this comes after the financial crisis that we did have,
37:34 um,
37:35 you know,
37:35 construction,
37:36 essentially in the country did.
37:38 Grind down to very bare maintenance essentially,
37:41 uh,
37:42 in terms of the public system.
37:43 So a lot of our skill sets and,
37:45 and the people like engineers,
37:46 architects,
37:47 uh,
37:47 all the trades people,
37:49 uh,
37:49 a lot,
37:50 a lot left the country,
37:51 uh,
37:51 and,
37:52 and haven't come back since.
37:53 So it has been a gradual process of,
37:55 of trying to build that back up,
37:56 both in the private sector and the public sector.
37:59 Uh,
37:59 so we have
38:00 many key actions around,
38:01 you know,
38:02 what can we do to encourage people into the sector,
38:04 uh,
38:05 with,
38:05 with support from
38:06 the education system,
38:07 with support from our social protection system,
38:10 trying to,
38:10 uh,
38:10 you know,
38:11 boost the,
38:11 the labor supply more broadly
38:13 and to get some of that obviously into,
38:15 into the public sector as well.
38:16 So I,
38:17 I might,
38:17 I might leave that there,
38:18 Tom.
38:18 That's kind of just some of the key actions that we have underway.
38:22 Thank you very much.
38:23 A very quick.
38:25 Addendum is,
38:26 it it it was very interesting that
38:29 Minister Pascal Donoghue,
38:31 who had been minister in Deer in
38:34 December 2019,
38:35 then moved to Minister for Finance,
38:37 so that he was coming back with a very fresh view at the end of 2022,
38:41 and
38:41 he certainly is making his,
38:43 his mark that in terms of making the needed adjustments.
38:47 So I'll move on at this
38:50 stage to ask.
38:52 Evan,
38:53 and you can introduce yourself.
38:54 Evan,
38:55 who's from,
38:57 well,
38:57 introduce yourself and then I'll ask you a question.
38:59 Is that OK?
39:01 That's fine,
39:02 yeah.
39:02 So Evan McMahon is my name.
39:04 I'm a senior economist in the Department of the Environment,
39:06 Climate and Communications.
39:10 Sorry,
39:11 did you get that?
39:11 I just realized I didn't hold the microphone up to my mouth,
39:14 so I can,
39:14 I can speak again.
39:15 Everybody hear that your,
39:17 your hand.
39:18 They don't know what a is.
39:20 I heard you.
39:21 Evan McMahon anyway,
39:22 Department of Environment,
39:23 Climate and Communications.
39:24 Thank you very much.
39:26 And again,
39:26 it was looking around,
39:27 and I had mentioned in my opening
39:30 statement
39:31 about the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council and the advent of that council.
39:34 But they,
39:35 on their website,
39:36 they have a report on climate change,
39:38 a very recent report.
39:40 And in it,
39:41 they Suggest that quote,
39:43 more work is needed to improve the modeling and precision
39:47 of the climate change impacts we estimate in this paper,
39:51 unquote.
39:52 Would you agree with that statement
39:54 is your department actively engaged in such work?
39:58 Yeah,
39:59 well,
39:59 I mean,
39:59 listen,
39:59 you know,
40:00 um,
40:01 what is it they say,
40:02 all models are wrong,
40:03 but some are useful,
40:04 so I think the more,
40:05 the more the better.
40:07 I have no issue with that.
40:08 I suspect,
40:09 you know,
40:09 the IFAC who you mentioned in your presentation,
40:12 are a fiscal advisory group.
40:13 So,
40:14 um,
40:15 I think where their perspective was coming from was like,
40:18 Traditionally,
40:20 organizations of that nature wouldn't have
40:22 particularly dipped their toe into this
40:24 area,
40:25 but everyone now realizes,
40:26 central banks,
40:27 anyone who's involved with,
40:29 with thinking about,
40:30 um,
40:31 just,
40:31 you know,
40:32 investment needs,
40:34 understands the climate isn't isn't somewhere
40:36 peripheral in a department like mine.
40:38 It's,
40:39 it's an issue that
40:41 you know,
40:41 is ubiquitous,
40:43 because it's going to impact everything.
40:44 So I think where they were coming from was,
40:46 you know,
40:47 They in IFAC need to
40:50 kind of think about this more,
40:51 but,
40:52 but quite apart from them,
40:53 I think we or anyone involved,
40:55 uh,
40:56 probably,
40:56 it's a highly complex area.
40:58 So,
40:59 um,
41:00 so I wouldn't,
41:00 I certainly wouldn't have any difficulty with that statement.
41:05 I come back then
41:07 Uh,
41:09 right,
41:09 right through
41:10 Ken and,
41:10 and
41:11 maybe either yourself.
41:13 Or Kevin in terms of,
41:16 I'd,
41:16 I'd like to hear a little bit more
41:18 for our
41:19 people who are
41:20 on this seminar to
41:22 the significance of the advent of IGS as an instrument in the public sector.
41:29 Which would,
41:29 which of you would like to,
41:32 sure,
41:32 well,
41:32 Tom,
41:32 I might come in on that and give,
41:33 give you my take on it,
41:34 and then Kevin can feel free to jump in afterwards if,
41:37 if,
41:37 if that suits,
41:38 because again I think we have slightly differing models,
41:41 even though we're from the same department like we,
41:43 we,
41:43 we look at these policy issues with,
41:45 with slightly different lenses sometimes,
41:47 um,
41:47 and just really to follow up on Evan's previous point as well,
41:49 um,
41:50 in terms of fiscal Advisory council,
41:51 obviously in the finance ministry here in the Public Expenditure ministry.
41:55 Um,
41:55 the pronouncements of the fiscal Advisory council are,
41:58 are something that we pay attention to.
42:00 And again,
42:01 what it really showed up for me,
42:03 I,
42:03 I think was
42:04 even more so than their projections of the kind of investment requirements
42:08 was how,
42:09 how strikingly they differed
42:11 depending on the policy mix adopted by government.
42:14 Um,
42:14 that the outcomes were,
42:15 were quite,
42:16 quite different,
42:17 and again that was backed up by recent IMF and World Bank reports that,
42:21 that shows,
42:21 you know,
42:21 getting the policy mix wrong on this
42:23 can lead to public debt levels that are kind
42:25 of 45% higher than they would be otherwise.
42:28 And again,
42:29 I'm not sure there's many countries in the world that will be able to
42:31 service debt levels that are 45% in excess of where they are today,
42:35 given that we're still adjusting from,
42:36 from,
42:37 from COVID and everything else,
42:39 so.
42:40 How do we go about doing this?
42:41 Um,
42:42 well,
42:42 I think that brings it right back down to your question.
42:45 How we start getting comfortable in terms of
42:48 building the models,
42:49 understanding the models,
42:50 making these projections is by leaning on resources like IGs
42:54 that are there and were established for exactly this kind of reason.
42:58 It's not that the Irish government never recruited economists before,
43:01 before 2000,
43:01 before the creation of ISIS.
43:03 It was just that there was never a centralized channel for them,
43:06 and there was never the kind of permanent centralized economic
43:10 uh experiences broadly based across departments,
43:14 uh,
43:14 in a way that it hasn't been in,
43:16 in the past.
43:17 So in that regard,
43:18 I think that IIS has,
43:19 has been a,
43:20 a,
43:20 a,
43:20 a,
43:21 a critical resource for the government.
43:23 And I'll give you a couple of practical examples from that.
43:26 I mean,
43:26 one is we,
43:28 I just undertake a series of expost spending reviews of,
43:31 of policy programs on a,
43:33 on a periodic basis.
43:34 And we do,
43:35 particularly in the climate research unit,
43:37 we generally engage with departments and development of
43:40 these and we've published a few very,
43:41 very significant papers
43:43 that have changed kind of policy uh development
43:46 in Ireland and changed policy outcomes from,
43:48 for the better.
43:49 And some of these can only be done from the center.
43:52 One example is looking at the supports that are available for electric vehicles.
43:56 I mean,
43:56 when we looked at this,
43:57 we saw that there were supports coming from a finance ministry,
43:59 our transport ministry,
44:00 our energy ministry,
44:02 from local authorities,
44:03 and from,
44:04 from a whole host of these.
44:05 So trying to accumulate how much
44:07 the government was actually spending on EVs,
44:10 and then weigh this against the emission savings
44:13 that the purchase of an EV was giving us over time,
44:16 allowed us to put a value on the cost per ton being that was being saved.
44:21 But then also it allowed us to put this cost against,
44:23 well,
44:24 here's the projected uptake pathway
44:26 we have for the deployment of,
44:27 of electric vehicles in Ireland,
44:29 and we can see from that then
44:31 we can see that we're going to lose billions in taxation revenues
44:34 in,
44:35 in terms of vehicle sales.
44:37 But also then if the supports were unchanged,
44:40 we'd have a massive liability on the public expenditure side,
44:43 and from that we're able to draw policy conclusions to say that look,
44:47 um,
44:47 the supports,
44:48 the current level of supports as it was at the time are unaffordable.
44:52 But,
44:53 you know,
44:53 an appropriate policy outcome
44:55 is to start toning down those supports for which we achieve the
44:58 least benefit in terms of supporting hybrid vehicles or things like this,
45:02 so there's a pathway or a glide path downwards
45:05 from,
45:05 from those high,
45:06 high subsidies.
45:07 So that's just one practical example in terms of an
45:09 ex post policy review that I just have contributed to,
45:12 but also in terms of the IIS resources that we
45:15 have with the department and backed against that IFAC question.
45:18 We're currently building a CGE model
45:20 um with one of our economic think tanks,
45:23 so that again,
45:24 when the government
45:25 is considering or implementing a climate policy,
45:28 we can plug that into the CGE model and see the economy-wide impacts
45:32 uh of,
45:33 of this proposal before we adopt it,
45:35 and that essentially gives us an early warning,
45:37 particularly to the distributional consequences
45:40 of some of the climate policies that the,
45:42 that the government might be contemplating,
45:44 because again,
45:44 for a finance ministry.
45:46 Knowing who the losers in a particular policy are going to be,
45:50 gives you an insight into where the sort of
45:52 the the the requests or the demands or the calls
45:55 for additional funding are,
45:56 are likely to come from.
45:57 So,
45:59 That's just a flavor of some of the work that I've just been doing on the climate side.
46:03 Would we be able to do this without IIS?
46:06 I'm,
46:06 I'm not sure,
46:07 but certainly we wouldn't be able to do it in this structured way.
46:09 And again,
46:10 having the structure of,
46:11 of,
46:11 of ISIS and the tradition of publishing policy documents like this
46:16 allows us to say.
46:18 You know,
46:18 so it's not government saying that we have to come
46:20 out and cut electric vehicle grants or anything like this.
46:22 It's saying that,
46:23 you know,
46:24 independent economic expertise from the
46:26 Irish government's evaluation services suggests
46:29 that these things are unaffordable in the long run.
46:31 It maybe smooths the passage
46:33 towards policy decisions that might otherwise be be politically unpalatable,
46:37 so it has a real practical benefit
46:39 as well as that theoretical and empirical benefit it has as well,
46:43 so.
46:43 I'm not sure I've gone on a fair bit there,
46:45 I'm not sure Evan or Kevin,
46:47 if you'd like to add anything to that on your,
46:48 on your perspective.
46:51 Yeah,
46:51 no,
46:51 thanks,
46:51 thanks,
46:52 Ken and Tom.
46:52 Yeah,
46:53 I would,
46:55 sorry,
46:55 Tom,
46:55 yeah,
46:56 no,
46:56 no,
46:56 yes,
46:57 please,
46:57 yeah,
46:58 just,
46:58 just,
46:58 uh,
46:58 in the strictly in the,
47:00 I think the public investment space and,
47:02 and,
47:02 and,
47:02 and management.
47:03 So
47:04 Ken referred to the fact that,
47:05 you know,
47:05 we have increased thresholds within,
47:08 within our,
47:08 you know,
47:09 the appraisal frameworks,
47:10 um,
47:11 so just give a context of where we've come from.
47:13 So
47:14 we,
47:14 we had a public spending code essentially,
47:16 um.
47:17 Was first
47:18 put together,
47:19 I say adopted a lot of those EU rules that,
47:21 that,
47:21 that,
47:21 that you mentioned in your presentation,
47:22 Tom,
47:23 uh,
47:23 and put some,
47:24 obviously some domestic guidance on it,
47:26 but in,
47:26 in 2013,
47:27 essentially we defined a major project as €20
47:30 million.
47:31 Um,
47:32 then in 2019,
47:33 we updated the,
47:34 the public spending code and we defined a major project as €100 million.
47:38 Uh,
47:38 and then,
47:39 as,
47:39 as Ken said in earlier this year,
47:41 it's now €200 million.
47:43 Now,
47:43 why IGS has been critical
47:45 to that is
47:47 essentially once something is defined a major project,
47:49 it tends to have to come into our department for a review
47:53 or to an external,
47:54 uh,
47:54 expert group for a review.
47:56 Uh,
47:57 so that's the kind of,
47:58 that's the kind of extra rigor that we apply.
48:00 So anything that falls under that essentially is,
48:02 is dealt with by the department,
48:03 the relevant department themselves.
48:06 So,
48:06 the having the IG's resource in the relevant departments
48:10 has,
48:11 you know,
48:11 I think allowed
48:13 those thresholds to increase overall,
48:16 particularly in the bigger departments that spend
48:18 a lot of capital
48:19 funding.
48:20 They tend to,
48:21 they do have good
48:23 strong I IGs resources.
48:25 They have,
48:26 I think,
48:26 particularly units that are supported at,
48:28 you know,
48:28 a senior level,
48:29 particularly at at at the principal officer grade,
48:32 usually headed up by,
48:33 by an economist with as the economist staff,
48:36 and they are the ones that are now tasked when,
48:39 when those projects that are under 200 million.
48:41 Stay within the sector.
48:42 They are tasked with essentially doing that,
48:44 that review,
48:45 that independent review of the project to assure
48:47 that it has met the kind of criteria,
48:49 uh,
48:50 under the code
48:51 that,
48:51 you know,
48:51 it,
48:52 it is making a good value for money case,
48:54 uh,
48:54 and will
48:55 deliver on the,
48:56 the kind of challenges that,
48:57 that,
48:58 that the,
48:58 the,
48:58 the
48:59 piece of infrastructure is due to meet.
49:01 So
49:01 I don't think we'd,
49:02 we'd have as much comfort here in,
49:04 in our department,
49:05 uh,
49:05 in myself and Ken's department.
49:07 Without the IG system
49:08 in those kind of bigger departments to,
49:10 to kind of do that job on,
49:11 on,
49:11 on,
49:12 you know,
49:13 do a similar job that Per might have done if the project came over to,
49:16 to us.
49:16 So
49:17 that's,
49:17 that's one key change on the kind of EIM side,
49:20 um,
49:20 so.
49:23 Thank you very much.
49:23 And I would echo again a point I made earlier on.
49:26 It's great that there is a website and that has a,
49:29 there's a good library there for people to
49:32 look through and
49:34 projects
49:35 that have been written about that they're interested in.
49:37 Could I switch back to you,
49:38 Evan,
49:40 and talk about the climate action plan.
49:42 Um,
49:42 which was,
49:43 is a first,
49:45 and it is,
49:46 it's legislation.
49:47 It's not just
49:49 a document,
49:50 a white paper
49:51 from government.
49:52 It's actually a
49:53 piece of legislation.
49:54 And,
49:55 and your department
49:56 is,
49:56 takes the lead role.
49:59 Is it fair to ask,
50:00 have you sufficient capacity within your department to manage
50:04 the implementation of this
50:06 very ambitious
50:07 Piece of legislation.
50:10 Thanks,
50:11 Tom.
50:11 I mean,
50:13 Look,
50:13 I,
50:13 I,
50:14 I,
50:14 I don't see this
50:16 particularly through an Irish lens.
50:17 I mean,
50:18 one could,
50:18 one could take the view that it's particularly
50:21 challenging from the Department of the Environment's perspective,
50:23 but I think,
50:24 you know,
50:24 globally it's a very,
50:25 it's,
50:26 it's very challenging.
50:27 We're talking about outside of wartime,
50:29 one of the biggest
50:30 mobilizations or,
50:31 or changes.
50:32 Um,
50:33 I mean,
50:33 obviously we,
50:34 we have COVID in mind as,
50:35 as
50:36 something recently,
50:37 but generally these kinds of societal transformations
50:40 don't occur,
50:41 so,
50:41 um.
50:42 So it is a big challenge.
50:44 I wouldn't shy away from that,
50:45 I wouldn't,
50:45 I wouldn't suggest otherwise,
50:46 but,
50:47 but I think um
50:49 Loved,
50:50 as the guys have alluded to there,
50:53 through I just through
50:54 Uh,
50:55 enhanced modeling,
50:57 we are ramping up,
50:58 but that's not to say that
51:00 that it isn't,
51:01 uh,
51:01 yeah,
51:01 really a challenge,
51:02 and a challenge that goes
51:03 and the and the climate action plan too,
51:05 again,
51:06 if people want to read it,
51:07 it's it's,
51:07 it's Googleable,
51:09 um,
51:10 but it's,
51:11 you know,
51:11 it's actions across the economy.
51:14 It's not just,
51:14 it's not just actions that
51:16 our department would be responsible for.
51:19 So it's quite a,
51:21 you know,
51:21 from
51:22 Agriculture,
51:23 to housing,
51:24 to
51:25 transport,
51:25 to energy,
51:26 like there's there's
51:28 transformations.
51:28 But these will be familiar to people um
51:31 all over the globe because they're not uniquely Irish challenges
51:35 and I suppose
51:36 um we were talking about it before,
51:38 before I came on,
51:39 you know.
51:40 Uh,
51:41 challenges have been highlighted by the IMF,
51:44 um,
51:45 and,
51:45 and they're,
51:46 but,
51:46 but they're,
51:47 what's true of Ireland is true of other countries,
51:49 um,
51:49 but I suppose looking at the IEA's recent document too,
51:52 there's there's kind of a quite
51:54 A good degree of positivity about what can be achieved.
51:57 So,
51:58 um,
51:58 a lot done,
51:59 a lot to do,
52:00 I think is that,
52:01 uh,
52:01 but,
52:01 but I think it is,
52:02 it is a challenge,
52:03 but um,
52:05 but it's not unique in that regard to Ireland.
52:08 Actually,
52:08 Evan,
52:08 you've stimulated me to dig into my papers
52:12 and think,
52:13 pull out something that I think
52:14 people will be interested in,
52:16 and it is that in Ireland
52:18 we have
52:19 a number of state-owned companies,
52:22 we call them state sponsored bodies,
52:24 and it's very interesting that
52:26 in the context of the,
52:27 of the climate action plan,
52:30 that
52:30 piece of legislation.
52:31 There's a specific document that has been
52:34 directed to each of the state bodies,
52:37 specifically on
52:39 climate action
52:41 and where targets have been set
52:43 for each of the state bodies for them to deliver
52:46 on it.
52:47 Indeed,
52:48 looking up to Bernard,
52:49 it may well be if,
52:50 if nothing else,
52:52 we May
52:52 do a list of references after this that might be useful,
52:57 because
52:58 the body that's overseeing this directive process,
53:02 looking for
53:03 state commercial,
53:04 state sponsored bodies to deliver on the
53:07 climate action
53:08 area,
53:08 the body is called New Era,
53:11 which is a lovely title of a body.
53:13 It was just you stimulated that thought that the trickle down,
53:16 it isn't just your department,
53:17 it is
53:19 so many other parts of our public sector
53:22 also have to have to deliver.
53:25 Uh,
53:25 I'm watching time and I'm only going to come back and I,
53:29 I think it probably
53:31 Chen and Kevin,
53:32 it's not.
53:33 Specifically
53:35 your two areas,
53:36 but you might have a view.
53:38 I had drawn attention to because it it it did have an impact in reading the budget,
53:43 uh,
53:44 last month.
53:45 Uh these two new funds,
53:47 if I could use the phrase countercyclical,
53:49 um,
53:51 would you have any
53:52 view you'd like to proffer,
53:54 or is it
53:55 completely outside your zone?
53:58 Oh,
53:58 I,
53:58 Tom,
53:59 I,
53:59 I,
53:59 again,
54:00 I think I can say little and Kevin,
54:01 Kevin can jump in as well,
54:03 um,
54:03 because I suppose the government announced two things and,
54:06 um,
54:07 they,
54:07 they get there's a little bit of confusion,
54:09 I suppose,
54:09 in,
54:09 in the media,
54:11 uh,
54:11 about it,
54:11 so,
54:12 um.
54:13 We announced that there's going to be increased capital spending of
54:16 about 2.25 billion over the over the coming three years.
54:19 Uh,
54:19 this is largely to deal with kind of inflationary pressures and,
54:23 and the intention is that this will be allocated
54:25 broadly as our
54:26 kind of capital decisions have,
54:28 have been taken.
54:29 Uh,
54:29 but then secondly,
54:31 the government specifically agreed to create,
54:33 um,
54:34 a new,
54:35 uh,
54:35 infrastructure fund that will be,
54:37 uh,
54:37 approximately €14 billion in size,
54:40 but within that then.
54:41 To ring fence at least 3.15 billion
54:45 for new climate
54:48 and nature and water quality spending over the period 26 to 30.
54:52 Um,
54:53 so this is essentially
54:55 Um,
54:56 fund new additional capital funding that will supplement
54:59 the existing projects that have been planned,
55:01 planned for that period,
55:03 um.
55:04 For us
55:06 This needs to be legislated for because it's going
55:08 to be coming from windfall corporation tax receipts,
55:11 as in it's going to be funded by corporation tax
55:13 receipts that we do not think will be recurring,
55:16 so it would not make sense for them to
55:17 form part of our kind of permanent expenditure commitments
55:20 because the revenue will not be permanent.
55:22 The revenue will be very,
55:23 very temporary,
55:24 so making.
55:25 You've talked about the previous crisis,
55:27 um,
55:27 um,
55:28 um,
55:28 Thomas,
55:29 but I think making permanent spending commitments on the basis of,
55:31 of transitory revenues,
55:33 certainly one of the key lessons learned,
55:35 learned from that period,
55:36 as was
55:37 the,
55:38 the,
55:38 the risks of overheating the economy.
55:40 So having those things in mind,
55:42 what we're looking at is additional capital spending over the period 26 to 30,
55:46 so a couple of years in,
55:47 in,
55:47 into the future.
55:49 To hopefully that to ease some of those constraints in the economy,
55:52 but also to give departments time to develop appropriate policies,
55:56 and then that spending will be for projects
55:58 that are capital and essentially once-off in nature,
56:01 because that will be the,
56:02 the only revenue that,
56:03 that's available for them.
56:05 So what our role is this needs to be legislated by our department of finance.
56:09 It needs to be adopted by our parliament.
56:11 They need to approve that that the government's,
56:13 uh,
56:14 the wisdom of the government's strategy,
56:15 I suppose,
56:15 in,
56:16 in,
56:16 in relation to this,
56:18 assuming that they do though,
56:19 um,
56:20 our department will likely play some role in
56:22 determining where those funds should be allocated.
56:25 And I suppose in that regard it's a,
56:27 it's a little early to talk about,
56:29 um,
56:30 specifics on it because again the government only agreed this a couple of weeks ago.
56:34 But I think very clearly
56:35 there'll be some kind of prioritization mechanism required
56:39 that can look at projects,
56:40 to look at the climate,
56:41 environmental characteristics
56:43 of individual projects
56:45 and assign them a ranking
56:47 uh to better informed decisions that might be taken by government
56:50 in relation to how it should allocate those funds.
56:53 And really I think what we're talking about here is an evolution
56:56 of,
56:57 of a scheme that we did a couple of years ago,
56:59 um.
57:00 I think it was 2 years ago,
57:01 the government up 3 at this stage,
57:03 the government updated its,
57:05 its capital spending plan,
57:06 the National Development Plan,
57:08 um,
57:09 for the period out to 2030.
57:11 But within that plan,
57:12 uh,
57:12 the government decided that every spending proposal
57:15 must be screened against a range of climate and environmental outcomes,
57:19 and every measure then must receive a traffic light-based score
57:24 against those rankings,
57:25 and that would be used to inform the
57:27 government's decision making on the allocation of funds.
57:30 So this was a big exercise that the Irish government did
57:33 through the climate unit working with in deck,
57:35 working with um
57:37 with with Kevin's team in,
57:38 in the NDP
57:40 to screen at the climate environmental characteristics for every program.
57:42 We're looking at mitigation,
57:44 adaptation,
57:45 impact on biodiversity,
57:46 water quality,
57:48 um,
57:48 and,
57:49 and so on,
57:49 on the impacts of those
57:51 to assign every project a score
57:53 and then to give every score a traffic light
57:56 to then kind of better informed government decision making on it.
57:59 So.
58:00 I think that gave us a good grounding.
58:02 It's imprecise,
58:03 it's qualitative in nature.
58:05 I think in terms of moving on from what we'd be looking at for the
58:08 next fund that we'd be trying to look
58:09 at something that's more quantitative in nature.
58:12 Again,
58:12 look at the specific environmental characteristics
58:15 of the individual investment programs,
58:17 and again,
58:18 trying then to prompt better policy making by departments by,
58:21 you know,
58:22 perhaps looking at the idea of adding additional scores
58:24 for things like the ability to leverage private finance.
58:27 Uh,
58:27 or indeed even if the economy is,
58:29 is still at capacity at that stage,
58:31 look at how we might look at the emissions
58:33 saved versus the labor intensity of construction projects.
58:36 Um,
58:37 but really these are very much kind of just initial thoughts at the outset.
58:40 There's a lot of thinking to be done both in our department and then by government
58:44 in terms of how we will make those decisions
58:46 in terms of the allocation of those funds,
58:48 but I do think it's a point of principle.
58:51 We should be creating a tool that,
58:53 that will give government
58:55 better information
58:56 to allow them to make better informed decisions when it comes to spending that,
59:00 spending those funds.
59:00 I think really that's what
59:02 capital investment uh policy and indeed green budgeting is,
59:05 is designed to do.
59:07 I'm not sure,
59:07 Kevin,
59:07 if there's anything you'd like to add to that.
59:11 Just,
59:11 just a small bit extra on the,
59:12 on the wider,
59:13 so yeah,
59:13 Ken can I
59:15 touched on the 3.15 and I will prioritize that.
59:18 The,
59:18 the wider,
59:19 I suppose the goal is
59:21 for,
59:21 as,
59:21 as you're saying,
59:22 Tom,
59:22 countercyclical fund as well,
59:24 uh,
59:25 and,
59:25 and we're seeking to put 2 billion per annum,
59:28 um,
59:28 from,
59:29 from next year
59:30 out to 2030 into,
59:31 into this fund,
59:32 um,
59:33 so total of 14 billion by,
59:35 by 2030
59:36 and.
59:38 You know,
59:38 for,
59:39 particularly for the challenges that
59:41 Ireland has had in the past,
59:43 when,
59:43 when cycles hit and the,
59:44 and the bad time and the cycle hits,
59:46 uh,
59:46 as a small open economy,
59:48 which,
59:48 you know,
59:48 maybe
59:49 many of the,
59:49 the Caribbean economies would be,
59:51 would,
59:51 would be too
59:52 quite open to outside,
59:53 uh,
59:54 impacts if the,
59:55 the world economy is bad,
59:56 uh,
59:57 the Irish economy is
59:58 generally worse,
59:59 uh,
1:00:00 we get hit very badly,
1:00:01 and when that happens,
1:00:03 of all of the types of spending that we have.
1:00:05 Uh,
1:00:06 capital is by far,
1:00:07 by far the most,
1:00:08 uh,
1:00:09 you know,
1:00:09 cyclical in,
1:00:10 in that nature.
1:00:11 When,
1:00:11 when,
1:00:11 when bad times hit,
1:00:12 the,
1:00:13 the,
1:00:13 the types of things that get
1:00:14 stopped first are
1:00:16 tend to be public projects.
1:00:17 Um,
1:00:18 it's very hard,
1:00:18 it's much harder to cut,
1:00:19 you know,
1:00:20 wages or workforce or
1:00:22 welfare.
1:00:23 Uh,
1:00:23 it,
1:00:23 it tends to be easier not to just not to go ahead with a,
1:00:25 with a,
1:00:25 with a project.
1:00:26 So,
1:00:27 you know,
1:00:27 I think we,
1:00:28 we would,
1:00:28 we would absolutely support the,
1:00:30 the setting up of such a fund that
1:00:32 if a hard time comes in,
1:00:34 in the future.
1:00:35 Uh,
1:00:35 that at least we'd have,
1:00:36 you know,
1:00:37 some of these windfall receipts put aside
1:00:40 and that they can
1:00:41 allow a lot of kind of key projects and major projects,
1:00:43 to proceed,
1:00:45 um,
1:00:45 and hopefully kind of bridge that gap till,
1:00:47 till
1:00:48 obviously the,
1:00:48 the finances and revenues pick up,
1:00:50 pick up again.
1:00:50 So,
1:00:51 um,
1:00:52 but again,
1:00:52 yeah,
1:00:52 our,
1:00:52 our our department of finance colleagues will be leading on that and
1:00:55 the legislation required to set up that fund.
1:00:59 Thank you very much.
1:01:02 I
1:01:04 I'm getting signals,
1:01:06 Evan,
1:01:06 that I should close off at this stage.
1:01:08 There's nothing,
1:01:09 I know it's not your area,
1:01:10 but is any observation you'd like to make on it?
1:01:12 or you pass,
1:01:13 I go back to Bernard.
1:01:15 No,
1:01:15 listen,
1:01:15 I'm fine.
1:01:16 I don't want to take people's time.
1:01:17 I suppose the only thing I was just thinking on the last point was,
1:01:20 um,
1:01:21 you know,
1:01:21 when we're talking about appraisal and things like that,
1:01:23 we have this.
1:01:25 Could you speak into the mic,
1:01:26 Evan,
1:01:26 just it's harder to hear you.
1:01:28 Sorry,
1:01:28 apologies.
1:01:29 Uh,
1:01:30 so economists have this idea,
1:01:31 you know,
1:01:31 you internalize the external costs and you leave it to the market,
1:01:34 and that's nice and efficient,
1:01:35 and,
1:01:35 and there I was talking about this,
1:01:37 um,
1:01:38 extremely prescriptive plan about all the different
1:01:40 sectoral things that you need to do,
1:01:42 and I guess it's a marriage of those
1:01:44 different approaches to try and get something optimal.
1:01:49 Thank you very much.
1:01:51 Do I hand back to you,
1:01:52 Bernard,
1:01:52 and
1:01:54 to take up on external questions at this juncture?
1:01:57 Yeah,
1:01:57 thank you very much,
1:01:58 Tom,
1:01:58 for leading that and just thank you,
1:02:00 uh,
1:02:00 Ken,
1:02:01 Evan,
1:02:01 and Kevin,
1:02:02 uh,
1:02:03 for just giving us a lot to think about and just being,
1:02:05 uh,
1:02:06 I think also quite,
1:02:07 uh,
1:02:07 candid about both the
1:02:09 successes and some of the challenges that you're facing.
1:02:12 Um,
1:02:12 I do want
1:02:13 to invite
1:02:14 our colleagues from the Caribbean to share.
1:02:18 Uh,
1:02:18 some of their experiences,
1:02:19 perhaps how they relate to some of the challenges that you've mentioned,
1:02:22 uh,
1:02:22 as,
1:02:23 as Evan said,
1:02:23 you know,
1:02:24 these are,
1:02:24 are global,
1:02:25 they're not unique to Ireland.
1:02:26 Uh,
1:02:26 perhaps they may be able to share
1:02:28 some of the,
1:02:29 um,
1:02:30 You know,
1:02:30 how they're approaching some of the,
1:02:32 these challenges of integrating climate considerations
1:02:34 in their public investment planning,
1:02:36 um,
1:02:38 So,
1:02:38 just,
1:02:39 so I wanna just open the floor to that,
1:02:41 but before uh
1:02:43 the first person,
1:02:43 there is a question in the chat that
1:02:46 uh perhaps Tom or one of the other
1:02:48 panels can,
1:02:49 can respond to.
1:02:50 Um,
1:02:51 that was from uh Keyana Burke
1:02:54 who asked,
1:02:55 uh,
1:02:55 in,
1:02:56 in coming up with the key actions and priority actions for including
1:02:59 climate considerations and public investment management,
1:03:02 how important was support from external partners?
1:03:08 Evan,
1:03:08 you'd love to answer that question.
1:03:12 Oh
1:03:13 sure.
1:03:15 Sure.
1:03:15 I mean like external sort of
1:03:17 consultation is key to
1:03:20 everything,
1:03:21 in as much as like,
1:03:22 you know,
1:03:22 as I said,
1:03:23 this whole uh
1:03:25 There's no one department can look after this,
1:03:27 uh,
1:03:27 and even within our department we have energy and we have climate,
1:03:31 and you know,
1:03:32 uh,
1:03:32 but,
1:03:32 but as I said,
1:03:33 there's sectors,
1:03:34 and we talk about,
1:03:35 for example,
1:03:35 the just transition.
1:03:36 So for example,
1:03:38 uh,
1:03:38 it's,
1:03:39 it's
1:03:40 You,
1:03:40 you want to do these things again,
1:03:41 like from an economic point of view,
1:03:43 you can talk about what's efficient,
1:03:44 but you,
1:03:45 you,
1:03:45 you can't lump the costs on on one sector and think
1:03:48 that there's not going to be any fallout from that.
1:03:50 So you have to think about the the wider socioeconomic issues.
1:03:54 So I think uh external
1:03:57 partners and and and consultation are are critical
1:04:00 when you're when you're developing policies of this complexity.
1:04:04 Um.
1:04:05 And also,
1:04:05 you know,
1:04:06 also the expertise that you get because,
1:04:08 you know,
1:04:08 while we have been opening our game through
1:04:11 things like the the the IG's network,
1:04:14 you know,
1:04:14 uh people who work in specific sectors,
1:04:16 who have specific skill sets,
1:04:18 and you know,
1:04:19 using Tom's term again,
1:04:20 in capacity,
1:04:21 uh,
1:04:22 that that's critical so that you so that
1:04:24 you bring that knowledge into the decision making.
1:04:26 So,
1:04:26 um,
1:04:27 so how important,
1:04:28 very important I guess in answer to your question.
1:04:33 And,
1:04:33 and,
1:04:33 and just add,
1:04:36 yes,
1:04:36 no,
1:04:36 just just add,
1:04:37 Tom,
1:04:37 yeah,
1:04:38 look,
1:04:38 in terms of the
1:04:40 that,
1:04:40 that,
1:04:40 the public investment management and particularly the,
1:04:43 you know,
1:04:43 how it translates into our,
1:04:44 our,
1:04:45 our code or investment guidelines,
1:04:47 you know,
1:04:47 since absolutely since 2019,
1:04:49 it's,
1:04:49 it's
1:04:50 any changes that we've been proposing
1:04:52 have been,
1:04:53 I suppose we've done,
1:04:54 you know,
1:04:55 considerable amount of stakeholder engagement with
1:04:57 particularly first in first instance our
1:04:58 relevant departments,
1:05:00 um.
1:05:00 At the end of the day they're they're the,
1:05:02 you know,
1:05:02 departments and agencies that that are actually going to have to
1:05:05 apply this
1:05:06 to,
1:05:06 to the projects.
1:05:08 So there might be aspects maybe in as they're coming from a very uh
1:05:11 central treasury point of view that we thought might be
1:05:14 straightforward or simple,
1:05:15 but actually in a,
1:05:16 in its application,
1:05:18 not,
1:05:18 not so much,
1:05:19 um,
1:05:20 and then just specifically on the climate,
1:05:21 maybe,
1:05:21 maybe Ken can confirm,
1:05:22 but as I think Ken mentioned earlier we.
1:05:26 You know,
1:05:26 in terms of the next steps,
1:05:28 uh,
1:05:28 you know,
1:05:28 we,
1:05:28 we had
1:05:29 relied on the,
1:05:30 the,
1:05:30 the assistance of the OECD to,
1:05:32 to,
1:05:33 to assist us on that.
1:05:34 Um,
1:05:35 I,
1:05:35 I think what we were actually looking for in the main was,
1:05:37 you know,
1:05:37 the international experience,
1:05:39 and
1:05:40 I,
1:05:40 I say these,
1:05:40 these are complex challenges.
1:05:41 Uh,
1:05:42 it's,
1:05:42 it's,
1:05:43 it's very important,
1:05:44 I think,
1:05:44 for any country to see
1:05:46 are there other countries that are,
1:05:47 that are,
1:05:47 that are doing it?
1:05:48 Are they slightly ahead?
1:05:49 Is there any
1:05:50 lessons that have been learned that we can kind of take,
1:05:52 take on board,
1:05:53 uh.
1:05:54 Within our,
1:05:55 within our frameworks,
1:05:56 um,
1:05:57 and probably more likely there's,
1:05:58 there's countries that
1:06:00 have already started seeing the effects,
1:06:02 you know,
1:06:02 substantial effects due to climate change
1:06:05 that have had to,
1:06:05 you know,
1:06:06 already,
1:06:07 you know,
1:06:07 introduced a number of changes that maybe aren't
1:06:09 apparent yet for Ireland but
1:06:11 will become so,
1:06:12 uh,
1:06:13 so,
1:06:13 yeah,
1:06:14 no,
1:06:14 absolutely looking at that international picture as well,
1:06:16 I think is,
1:06:16 is key.
1:06:18 Yeah,
1:06:18 I just to add to that,
1:06:19 Kevin,
1:06:20 specifically on the climate side,
1:06:21 I mean,
1:06:21 really,
1:06:21 there,
1:06:22 there's,
1:06:23 there's two broad thrusts of what we're all trying to do here,
1:06:25 which is to better incorporate climate considerations
1:06:28 into our public investment management and appraisal
1:06:31 and also to reform our budgetary processes,
1:06:33 um,
1:06:34 so that climate is taken into account on,
1:06:36 on those.
1:06:37 And I mean,
1:06:38 as,
1:06:38 as everyone has kind of stressed their challenges that literally
1:06:40 every nation in the world is currently currently facing,
1:06:43 facing at the moment.
1:06:45 So in terms of some of that
1:06:47 external partnerships,
1:06:49 we found it very fruitful to engage through a couple of channels.
1:06:51 There's the OECD Paris Collaborative on green budgeting.
1:06:55 There's the bank's,
1:06:55 uh,
1:06:56 coalition of Finance Ministers for Climate Action,
1:06:59 uh,
1:06:59 not relevant I'm afraid to many audiences here,
1:07:02 but there's also a great degree of cooperation
1:07:04 facilitated by the Commission,
1:07:06 the EU Commission in terms of the European continent.
1:07:09 But there's also then just the kind of the,
1:07:10 the knowledge and experience that you gain
1:07:12 through through events like this as well.
1:07:15 And I think what's really important is the theoretical underpinnings of,
1:07:18 of these structures,
1:07:19 which again the bank,
1:07:20 the IMF,
1:07:21 um,
1:07:22 the OECD all do a wonderful job on producing background papers on,
1:07:25 but nothing beats that practical experience of hearing from other countries
1:07:29 and from other finance ministries
1:07:31 on the specific elements they've managed to introduce
1:07:35 within their countries,
1:07:36 the challenges
1:07:37 that they found while doing so,
1:07:38 and any kind of lessons learned.
1:07:40 I think that's one of the advantages now is
1:07:42 perhaps there's a few hurdles that can be jumped
1:07:44 or indeed avoided um through,
1:07:46 through,
1:07:46 um,
1:07:47 sort of understanding some,
1:07:48 some of these issues,
1:07:49 and I think as I said there are a few
1:07:51 uh active channels out there that that nations can participate in
1:07:55 as well as the kind of the more ad hoc events such as this so.
1:07:58 Just to say that I'd urge your,
1:08:00 your cooperation with,
1:08:01 with some of those events where,
1:08:02 where possible,
1:08:03 uh,
1:08:04 because we're all trying to achieve the same,
1:08:06 same objectives,
1:08:06 I think at the end of the day,
1:08:08 and from the perspective of finance ministers
1:08:10 all finding it a bit difficult
1:08:12 as to,
1:08:12 as to,
1:08:13 now we have to take on environmental science and,
1:08:15 and things that we wouldn't have had to in,
1:08:17 in,
1:08:17 in,
1:08:18 in previous iterations,
1:08:19 I suppose.
1:08:22 I had a brief,
1:08:23 brief point to that in answering the question,
1:08:25 right back to the consultation,
1:08:27 and,
1:08:28 and actually it's,
1:08:29 it's Kevin Meaney who drew my attention to this.
1:08:32 The fact that
1:08:34 Ireland the Irish government each year hosts
1:08:37 what's called
1:08:38 a national economic dialogue,
1:08:39 the full range of
1:08:41 social partners,
1:08:42 and one of the documents that I rolled off from
1:08:45 this summer's one was exactly on that point that Ken was saying.
1:08:49 Quote,
1:08:49 in terms of thinking about a sustainable future for all,
1:08:52 the green budgeting initiative brings a more
1:08:54 specific focus on embedding climate
1:08:56 and environmental goals within the budgetary process.
1:09:00 So just that another reference,
1:09:01 Bernard.
1:09:02 So we back to you,
1:09:03 Bernard.
1:09:03 OK,
1:09:03 thank you,
1:09:04 yeah.
1:09:04 So I know we have colleagues from Saint Lucia,
1:09:07 from Jamaica,
1:09:08 from Suriname,
1:09:09 from a variety of places.
1:09:10 So,
1:09:10 uh,
1:09:11 let's,
1:09:11 let me just pause for a moment and see if uh any of our Caribbean officials would be
1:09:16 willing just to share a little bit of their experience,
1:09:19 um.
1:09:25 You can raise your hand or you can unmute and
1:09:29 uh and
1:09:29 just jump in and.
1:09:44 I see there's uh Ms.
1:09:46 Thomas
1:09:47 from Saint Lucia.
1:09:48 Just a few comments.
1:09:50 Thank you for
1:09:51 The webinar,
1:09:52 I find the discussion very interesting and informative.
1:09:56 Um,
1:09:57 first of all,
1:09:59 just a little about Saint Lucia.
1:10:02 Small island,
1:10:03 small island developing state.
1:10:06 Very low growth rates and very highly indebted
1:10:11 economy and we are part of a monetary union
1:10:14 um with the OECS.
1:10:17 A couple of the challenges,
1:10:18 much of which was covered in the discussion today,
1:10:22 include,
1:10:23 but not limited to.
1:10:25 Again,
1:10:26 financing for disaster resilience.
1:10:29 Um,
1:10:30 as part of our successes,
1:10:32 the island,
1:10:33 we have in the past undertaken some key assessments,
1:10:37 um,
1:10:37 primarily associated with
1:10:41 Um,
1:10:42 developing a financing strategy for disaster risk
1:10:46 assessments as well as
1:10:49 assessing the volume of fiscal space that would be required to build resilience
1:10:55 and to be able to integrate
1:10:57 disaster and climate adaptation
1:11:01 requirements.
1:11:02 Um,
1:11:03 so some of these assessments have been done in the past and
1:11:07 it's been utilized to be able to inform government policy.
1:11:11 Another key challenge is that with respect to data
1:11:16 and
1:11:17 um
1:11:18 I would be interested in hearing some of the
1:11:22 experience from Ireland and how you dealt with that.
1:11:26 Um,
1:11:27 I know in our instance,
1:11:29 um,
1:11:30 particularly expenditure data
1:11:33 and capturing it out of the budget has been a challenge for us on the island.
1:11:38 I know recently
1:11:40 we undertook a change in our chart of.
1:11:42 accounts to be able to better manage that,
1:11:46 but
1:11:46 the actual utilization of the data is where
1:11:50 and better assessment of the data is,
1:11:53 is one of the areas that needs further
1:11:57 development.
1:11:58 As of,
1:11:59 as
1:12:00 one would expect the issues pertaining to
1:12:04 competencies and the tools
1:12:06 to be able to strengthen capacity.
1:12:09 For
1:12:10 doing this is continuously being
1:12:14 um pursued.
1:12:15 In that regard,
1:12:16 I would be interested in hearing a little about the
1:12:20 institutional arrangements you have and some of the competencies I heard
1:12:25 mention was made of,
1:12:27 I think you said IGs where you now have
1:12:31 um capacities related to
1:12:34 um economists in some of your
1:12:37 Your work,
1:12:38 um,
1:12:38 I would be interested in that,
1:12:40 but I do believe on Thursday we may be talking a little more about that.
1:12:45 And very importantly,
1:12:47 it would be remiss of me if I don't talk about the
1:12:50 critical support that the island is receiving in PFM from the,
1:12:55 the.
1:12:56 The CRIF,
1:12:58 um,
1:12:59 the facility that supported that exchange.
1:13:02 Um,
1:13:03 one of the areas of priority on the island that we've been working,
1:13:07 um,
1:13:08 steadily on is that of public asset management.
1:13:12 And
1:13:14 And from the perspective from PFM,
1:13:17 um,
1:13:18 the Department of Economic Development has
1:13:20 been working assiduously on strengthening the,
1:13:24 the Public Sector Investment
1:13:26 Program,
1:13:27 the PSIP.
1:13:29 To strengthen collaboration and strengthen assessments.
1:13:33 So we continue to work and this,
1:13:35 this discussion is very timely.
1:13:38 I am,
1:13:39 I will pause here to give an opportunity to others to come
1:13:43 in.
1:13:46 Over to you,
1:13:47 Bernard.
1:13:53 I'll start the answering by just
1:13:55 I mean thank you very much.
1:13:59 um,
1:14:00 I just start at the end in terms of IG's and and put a personal perspective of it
1:14:05 on it.
1:14:06 When I was in the Department of Transport for most of my career,
1:14:10 I was the senior economist,
1:14:12 but there were no other economists there at that juncture.
1:14:15 So I really
1:14:17 was very pleased,
1:14:18 uh,
1:14:19 personally when I saw.
1:14:21 In 2012,
1:14:22 2013,
1:14:23 the new Department of Public Expenditure and Reform
1:14:26 and the Minister Brendan Howlin and Robert Watts,
1:14:29 the Secretary General.
1:14:32 Actually structuring and setting this up because it,
1:14:36 I'm biased being an economist,
1:14:38 but I really think
1:14:39 economists have a very big role to play
1:14:42 and
1:14:42 to have a system that was cross-departmental,
1:14:47 I felt was really a very important.
1:14:49 One
1:14:49 while having a central
1:14:52 advisory
1:14:54 role being provided within the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.
1:14:58 And again,
1:14:58 I come back and,
1:14:59 and,
1:14:59 and,
1:14:59 and I would
1:15:00 something else I will put down the full reference to it,
1:15:03 the fact that one can go online and
1:15:06 uh consult
1:15:07 the library and,
1:15:08 and
1:15:09 that may be something that would be helpful to you,
1:15:13 Ounta.
1:15:14 Thank you.
1:15:15 Absolutely.
1:15:16 Um,
1:15:17 if you could just leave the link in the chats,
1:15:20 we will definitely be interested in doing that.
1:15:23 Thanks again.
1:15:28 OK,
1:15:29 I don't know if anyone else I can,
1:15:30 well,
1:15:30 I can come back a bit,
1:15:31 just a bit about the point on um.
1:15:34 The capturing expenditure data on climate because that that is something that we,
1:15:40 we've done in Ireland we've we've done some work on it and again
1:15:42 maybe I can give a bit of a practical experience on it.
1:15:46 Um,
1:15:47 so I suppose one of the
1:15:49 key benefits of capturing climate related expenditure data
1:15:53 and the primary reason why Ireland did this in,
1:15:56 in,
1:15:57 I think it was 2018
1:15:59 was to be able to facilitate the issuance of green debt.
1:16:02 Um,
1:16:03 it was quite early stages in the market at that point,
1:16:05 but there was still
1:16:06 a treasury agency had identified a kind of a,
1:16:08 a,
1:16:09 a market gap or a market need or possible advantageous approach,
1:16:13 and
1:16:14 since then we've issued,
1:16:15 uh,
1:16:15 over €10 billion worth of,
1:16:17 of green bonds
1:16:19 to the market,
1:16:20 um,
1:16:20 which has broadened
1:16:22 the pool of,
1:16:22 of investors in Ireland's debt quite significantly,
1:16:25 hasn't necessarily given us an interest rate advantage on that debt.
1:16:29 But by broadening that debt,
1:16:31 we,
1:16:32 we,
1:16:33 I suppose,
1:16:34 increase the resilience of,
1:16:35 of that debt in,
1:16:36 in of itself
1:16:37 because it's held by by wider investors than
1:16:40 than what it would have been previously.
1:16:43 But to do that and to facilitate the issuing of a green bond.
1:16:46 You have to publish an allocation report every year,
1:16:50 uh,
1:16:50 alongside that bond,
1:16:51 showing where you've spent the proceeds of that bond.
1:16:55 So what that requires you to do
1:16:58 is I suppose to adopt a definition
1:17:00 of what you believe counts as green expenditure
1:17:03 and then to apply that definition of of green expenditure
1:17:07 to all the government's expenditures
1:17:10 to determine what counts for that process
1:17:12 and what doesn't count for that process.
1:17:15 So this is something we did in Ireland,
1:17:17 um,
1:17:17 we did it again within the climate unit,
1:17:19 so it's something that can be done by a small team of
1:17:22 of officials.
1:17:23 And I think when it comes to tagging,
1:17:25 there are now kind of multiple different
1:17:28 definitions in,
1:17:29 in use.
1:17:30 I'm sure,
1:17:30 I'm sure the bank has one,
1:17:32 certainly the commission has one,
1:17:33 but even beyond those institutions,
1:17:36 things like there's an international capital markets definition
1:17:39 that would be very much aligned with with what international
1:17:42 investors might expect in a in a green bond.
1:17:46 So I think then in terms of of of very practically then how do you implement this,
1:17:51 I think it's a matter of engaging with each of the ministries
1:17:54 in terms of all the spending programs that they have
1:17:57 in terms of applying this definition to those spending programs
1:18:00 and by engaging in a dialogue with those departments
1:18:03 to come to a mutually shared understanding
1:18:06 of what you believe the program's expenditures
1:18:08 that they have that meet the definition.
1:18:11 And then centralizing this
1:18:13 either in a parallel reporting structure to,
1:18:15 to your national budget.
1:18:17 So that is essentially what,
1:18:18 what we've done in Ireland.
1:18:19 We published
1:18:21 again for uh for a public consultation,
1:18:23 we approached green budgeting,
1:18:26 the definition that we used,
1:18:28 and then the results of this engagement
1:18:29 that we had with the individual line ministries
1:18:32 and departments
1:18:33 to get us towards that list of expenditure
1:18:36 that we that we now include in our annual budgetary documentation
1:18:40 and now underpins this
1:18:42 allocation report that we have to do
1:18:44 every year on,
1:18:45 on a green bond.
1:18:47 Um,
1:18:47 of course you mentioned as well that beyond identification
1:18:50 you need to move towards effectiveness of expenditure,
1:18:53 and this approach that I've talked about here
1:18:55 in terms of tagging expenditure doesn't do that,
1:18:57 but I think it's a very much
1:18:59 a first and necessary
1:19:01 step along the way to more,
1:19:03 uh,
1:19:03 in-depth discussions with those ministries
1:19:06 about improving the effectiveness of,
1:19:07 of expenditure,
1:19:09 and I really do think
1:19:10 it's a useful tool in of itself,
1:19:12 not just to facilitate the green bond.
1:19:14 But then also to prompt those discussions,
1:19:17 particularly around ministries that are maybe beyond your
1:19:19 Ministry of Energy and Environment and Climate Change,
1:19:22 who will understand
1:19:23 these definitions,
1:19:24 but your ministries of transport,
1:19:26 your ministries of agriculture,
1:19:28 your ministries of enterprise
1:19:30 will have um
1:19:31 less in-depth knowledge and understanding
1:19:33 of the sort of the pros and cons of the trade-offs of,
1:19:36 of identifying green expenditures.
1:19:38 So in other words,
1:19:39 I think it's a great first step
1:19:40 for both a finance ministry
1:19:42 and for the rest of government to start on a tagging exercise
1:19:45 that doesn't need to be complicated.
1:19:47 Again,
1:19:48 the EU Commission have very,
1:19:49 very complicated taxonomy.
1:19:51 You don't need to do that.
1:19:52 You can start with something as simple as
1:19:54 greenhouse gas mitigation and or greenhouse gas adaptation.
1:19:58 Start running the ruler
1:19:59 over your program expenditures
1:20:01 on that basis,
1:20:02 using a simplified definition for what constitutes those expenditures.
1:20:06 You can take inspiration from the French approach to green budgeting,
1:20:09 you can look at the OECD Rio markers that are used for,
1:20:12 um,
1:20:13 for foreign aid,
1:20:14 uh,
1:20:15 or indeed you can look at
1:20:16 people like the International Capital Markets Association
1:20:19 in,
1:20:19 in terms of definition.
1:20:21 So it's work,
1:20:22 uh,
1:20:22 and it will take up some time from senior officials,
1:20:25 but I do think it's a manageable,
1:20:27 uh,
1:20:27 bite-sized piece of work
1:20:29 that can be maybe adopted as,
1:20:30 as an appropriate first step.
1:20:33 Uh,
1:20:33 I see I have a question there as well about um
1:20:36 data tracking and how we started collecting in,
1:20:39 in data,
1:20:41 so.
1:20:42 I think that's a very good question because the first question is going to be,
1:20:46 well,
1:20:46 what level are you going to report to the public on your expenditures at?
1:20:50 I think that's very clearly the the first
1:20:53 decision.
1:20:54 Um,
1:20:54 and we took the decision early in the process that we were going to report
1:20:58 at the most granular level of data
1:21:00 that the Irish government makes available
1:21:02 to the general public.
1:21:04 We took that decision
1:21:06 because we believed it was very important for consistency.
1:21:09 So for either an investor in a green bond or indeed for one of our,
1:21:12 our,
1:21:12 our citizens
1:21:13 to be able to look at the general budget
1:21:15 and see that,
1:21:17 you know,
1:21:17 a program for energy efficiency has a budget of 10 million,
1:21:19 and then to look at our,
1:21:21 our,
1:21:21 our list of green expenditures,
1:21:23 be able to match that program expenditure with our list of green expenditures.
1:21:27 I think that's critical for,
1:21:28 for early stage credibility of,
1:21:30 of the program.
1:21:32 So what do we do in terms of steps as repeating myself a little bit here,
1:21:36 but I think the first thing is to adopt.
1:21:39 A definition,
1:21:40 deply what level of expenditures you want to apply that definition to,
1:21:45 and then I think you're applying that to the data,
1:21:48 to the budgetary data
1:21:50 that your line ministries
1:21:51 are already reporting.
1:21:53 Um,
1:21:53 so in other words,
1:21:54 we shouldn't be seeking,
1:21:56 at least in the first steps of this,
1:21:57 to collect new information.
1:21:59 It's about applying a definition
1:22:01 to that existing data that you have from your line ministries
1:22:05 and that you report to the public on.
1:22:07 There will be some subtleties and things like that that you'll come across in this,
1:22:12 particularly where you'll come across a
1:22:13 program that might have multiple objectives,
1:22:15 and again you'll have to take a decision then on how you report on that.
1:22:19 Do you use a tool such as the Rio markets which look at a proportion-based approach,
1:22:23 you know,
1:22:23 if something is 40% of expenditure.
1:22:26 In the Irish government,
1:22:27 we took a decision to be a little more precise and we said
1:22:30 only where we are satisfied
1:22:32 that the vast majority of expenditure on the program.
1:22:36 Contributes to the achievement of climate objectives,
1:22:39 are we satisfied tagging it,
1:22:41 um,
1:22:41 but again,
1:22:42 in terms of socializing this approach,
1:22:44 when you're thinking about all these things,
1:22:46 the definition,
1:22:47 the level of data,
1:22:48 the subtleties,
1:22:49 you can be working all of this into
1:22:50 a publication which can accompany your national budget,
1:22:53 which can explain how you came to these conclusions that you did,
1:22:56 and that will really get buy-in from stakeholders and
1:22:59 from the general public and from your political system.
1:23:02 And then as I said,
1:23:03 can form the basis
1:23:04 of future tools in terms of getting at the effectiveness of that expenditure,
1:23:08 or indeed can underpin your issuance of,
1:23:10 of green debt.
1:23:11 But I think that tagging exercise is a great first step,
1:23:14 a great discipline
1:23:15 for line ministries and for the finance ministries to start off with.
1:23:19 Uh,
1:23:19 again,
1:23:20 if the World Bank are circulating links,
1:23:22 happy to provide links to some of the Irish
1:23:23 documents that I've talked about here that you can see
1:23:26 because in a lot of these documents,
1:23:27 we talked about how we came to the conclusions we did.
1:23:30 Quite openly because we're trying to persuade
1:23:32 stakeholders and bring them with us on
1:23:34 on this journey,
1:23:35 so happy to provide any of those links.
1:23:37 Chen,
1:23:37 thank you very much.
1:23:38 That would be very useful.
1:23:39 We do want to follow up with the participants with just resources,
1:23:42 uh,
1:23:43 a link to the recording and,
1:23:44 and other things.
1:23:45 So,
1:23:46 uh,
1:23:46 let me just,
1:23:47 before Alberto comes in to sort of close up our session,
1:23:50 I just wanna uh give officials from the Caribbean the final word if they,
1:23:54 if there's anyone else from the Caribbean that would like to
1:23:57 just,
1:23:58 uh,
1:23:58 give a comment or share a brief,
1:24:00 very brief experience.
1:24:09 OK.
1:24:10 Uh
1:24:12 Good morning,
1:24:12 Bernard.
1:24:13 Yes,
1:24:13 OK.
1:24:14 Yes,
1:24:14 Ms.
1:24:14 Lewis,
1:24:15 and good morning to all your panelists.
1:24:17 Just want to say that this morning's session was quite informative.
1:24:21 Um,
1:24:22 we
1:24:23 are also looking to infuse the climate
1:24:27 considerations in our public investment management system.
1:24:30 Um,
1:24:31 by law we are required to appraise projects,
1:24:34 um,
1:24:34 for environmental feasibility,
1:24:36 which of course will include considerations
1:24:39 of how the
1:24:40 environment itself could impact
1:24:42 um project success.
1:24:44 And so certainly this morning was quite beneficial.
1:24:46 I'm looking forward to
1:24:48 receiving the
1:24:50 presentations this morning
1:24:51 and the recordings
1:24:53 and also the other resources
1:24:55 that the
1:24:56 uh panelists have made reference to.
1:24:59 So thank you all very much.
1:25:03 Thank you very much.
1:25:04 And so you're from Jamaica,
1:25:05 yes.
1:25:07 Correct.
1:25:10 OK.
1:25:11 Uh,
1:25:11 well,
1:25:11 thank you very much,
1:25:12 and this is also an opportunity just to remind,
1:25:15 uh,
1:25:16 the colleagues that we will have a follow-up,
1:25:19 a second session this week
1:25:21 focusing a bit more on disaster
1:25:23 response and recovery with again public officials from Ireland.
1:25:27 Um,
1:25:27 and with that,
1:25:28 uh,
1:25:28 Alberto.
1:25:30 Thank you,
1:25:31 Bernard.
1:25:31 Can you hear me?
1:25:35 Yes,
1:25:35 we can hear you.
1:25:36 OK.
1:25:36 So,
1:25:37 no,
1:25:37 thank you,
1:25:37 thank you very much,
1:25:38 and I,
1:25:38 I will,
1:25:39 I will,
1:25:40 I'm going to be very brief actually because we are over the hour already,
1:25:43 but,
1:25:43 uh,
1:25:44 first,
1:25:44 let me,
1:25:44 you know,
1:25:45 reiterate,
1:25:46 uh,
1:25:46 our gratitude to our sponsors,
1:25:48 the government of Canada,
1:25:50 that,
1:25:50 uh,
1:25:50 allows us to have this kind of,
1:25:52 uh,
1:25:53 of exchanges and support that we are providing to,
1:25:55 to the Caribbean islands.
1:25:57 Uh,
1:25:58 in the context of this,
1:25:59 um,
1:25:59 this broader program.
1:26:01 It's,
1:26:01 uh,
1:26:01 it's very helpful for us,
1:26:03 uh,
1:26:03 to have that type of support that helps us,
1:26:05 you know,
1:26:06 not only to provide the support,
1:26:07 but also
1:26:08 to,
1:26:09 to learn and to innovate.
1:26:10 And I think this,
1:26:10 this,
1:26:11 uh,
1:26:11 this session is,
1:26:12 is very much about that.
1:26:14 Um,
1:26:14 of course,
1:26:14 thanks also to the
1:26:16 To the guest speakers and,
1:26:18 and,
1:26:18 and for sharing this,
1:26:19 uh,
1:26:19 this important and relevant uh experience that you have.
1:26:22 Uh,
1:26:23 Ireland,
1:26:23 of course,
1:26:23 is,
1:26:24 uh,
1:26:24 it's kind of a reference for the world in terms of uh how you have managed to,
1:26:28 to build and then develop this,
1:26:30 uh,
1:26:31 uh,
1:26:31 expenditure management program and planning,
1:26:34 uh,
1:26:34 processes,
1:26:35 uh,
1:26:35 with a focus on how to manage uh capital spending.
1:26:39 Uh,
1:26:40 and,
1:26:40 uh,
1:26:40 it is very interesting to see,
1:26:42 and,
1:26:42 and thank you,
1:26:43 uh,
1:26:43 thank you,
1:26:43 Tom,
1:26:44 for providing that background that this started,
1:26:46 uh,
1:26:46 very much,
1:26:47 you know,
1:26:47 many years ago,
1:26:47 and,
1:26:48 and it's,
1:26:49 uh,
1:26:49 it's very much about building capacity
1:26:52 and,
1:26:52 and the way that you presented it,
1:26:53 it's,
1:26:54 it's building that adaptive capacity because,
1:26:56 uh,
1:26:57 you know,
1:26:57 reality keeps changing,
1:26:58 context keeps changing,
1:26:59 challenges,
1:27:00 uh,
1:27:00 are coming,
1:27:01 uh,
1:27:01 up,
1:27:01 uh,
1:27:02 a new cha uh with new characteristics,
1:27:04 so we have to adapt that.
1:27:06 Uh,
1:27:06 very helpful,
1:27:07 I think,
1:27:08 for,
1:27:08 for,
1:27:08 uh,
1:27:09 also for our
1:27:10 Partners in the Caribbean to hear this experience,
1:27:14 uh,
1:27:14 from a different perspective,
1:27:16 you know?
1:27:17 This is,
1:27:17 I think,
1:27:17 an ongoing dialogue.
1:27:19 We will have that follow-up uh session on Thursday,
1:27:21 then we can focus a little bit more on the,
1:27:23 on the resilience aspects of that,
1:27:25 uh,
1:27:26 uh,
1:27:26 are the,
1:27:27 the,
1:27:27 the things that they are.
1:27:28 Caribbean,
1:27:29 uh,
1:27:29 uh,
1:27:30 partners are more interested,
1:27:31 uh,
1:27:32 of,
1:27:32 of course,
1:27:32 given their situation,
1:27:34 but the,
1:27:34 the way that you have presented how this has been evolving in,
1:27:38 in Ireland it's very interesting.
1:27:40 For example,
1:27:40 on how you have operated,
1:27:42 uh,
1:27:42 or how we are sort of streamlining your own system,
1:27:46 uh,
1:27:46 keeping this balance between,
1:27:47 you know,
1:27:48 proper,
1:27:49 proper ex ante,
1:27:51 uh,
1:27:51 analysis
1:27:52 with also some,
1:27:54 uh,
1:27:54 some level of agility in the process,
1:27:56 also to make decisions.
1:27:58 Uh,
1:27:58 um,
1:27:59 uh,
1:27:59 faster without compromising the quality.
1:28:02 Interesting to see,
1:28:03 you know,
1:28:03 how difficult it is to incorporate this climate dimension in the process.
1:28:07 And,
1:28:07 uh,
1:28:08 uh,
1:28:09 complex as it is,
1:28:09 you said,
1:28:10 uh,
1:28:11 that mitigation aspects are,
1:28:12 are,
1:28:12 uh,
1:28:13 uh,
1:28:14 would be incorporated,
1:28:15 but
1:28:16 adaptation seem,
1:28:17 seem to be even more difficult.
1:28:19 And,
1:28:19 uh,
1:28:19 and we agree with that.
1:28:20 And,
1:28:20 and that's precisely the challenge that we are experiencing
1:28:22 now in the Caribbean because that is the,
1:28:24 the,
1:28:24 the main focus.
1:28:25 So we will be very happy.
1:28:27 Happy to hear that,
1:28:28 that aspect as well.
1:28:30 Uh,
1:28:30 the other interesting point that came out in the discussion was also,
1:28:34 uh,
1:28:34 related to implementation capacity that I think is,
1:28:36 is another,
1:28:37 uh,
1:28:37 big challenge.
1:28:39 Uh,
1:28:39 and something that you mentioned that was a little bit,
1:28:41 uh,
1:28:41 new to me as well,
1:28:42 from your perspective with this,
1:28:44 uh,
1:28:44 challenge about the skills that are migrating,
1:28:47 migrating to other places,
1:28:49 and then you have to replace them.
1:28:51 Uh,
1:28:51 I think this is very relevant for the Caribbean islands because this is,
1:28:55 this is a phenomenon that is ongoing and you have to keep,
1:28:58 you know,
1:28:58 creating this.
1:28:59 This ability and capacity to respond.
1:29:01 So many of these things and,
1:29:02 and,
1:29:02 uh,
1:29:03 and of course,
1:29:03 from,
1:29:04 from having uh and the,
1:29:05 and the environmental perspective
1:29:07 to look at this as a in a multi-sector
1:29:10 whole of government approach,
1:29:11 I think that,
1:29:12 that is,
1:29:13 that is critical and,
1:29:14 and requires also that,
1:29:16 that type of approach
1:29:17 um to incorporate this dimension and,
1:29:20 and that requires actually a proactive action,
1:29:23 no,
1:29:23 it,
1:29:23 it,
1:29:23 it can,
1:29:24 it cannot be uh brought in only with you,
1:29:26 with your normal um.
1:29:28 With the normal principles of,
1:29:30 of managing public investments,
1:29:32 but do you have proactively to incorporate these dimensions as well.
1:29:35 So many important messages,
1:29:36 I think,
1:29:37 uh,
1:29:38 from our Caribbean,
1:29:39 um,
1:29:39 er partners,
1:29:40 uh,
1:29:41 we are hoping that this dialogue is helpful.
1:29:43 We know that,
1:29:44 uh,
1:29:44 the main challenge now is to look into these
1:29:48 issues related to
1:29:49 disaster,
1:29:50 uh,
1:29:51 and climate-informed
1:29:52 public investment management.
1:29:54 Uh,
1:29:55 risk assessment in the process
1:29:57 and building the capacity so that we can
1:30:00 develop this as part of our systems.
1:30:02 Uh,
1:30:03 something that came up,
1:30:04 uh,
1:30:04 at the end,
1:30:05 uh,
1:30:05 from,
1:30:06 from,
1:30:06 from one of the,
1:30:07 um,
1:30:08 Caribbean representatives is,
1:30:10 is also this focus on asset management,
1:30:13 which is not only,
1:30:14 you know,
1:30:14 building the new investments,
1:30:15 but also making sure that our existing assets are also,
1:30:19 uh,
1:30:20 uh,
1:30:20 um,
1:30:21 resilient.
1:30:22 So,
1:30:22 um,
1:30:23 yeah,
1:30:23 with that,
1:30:24 uh,
1:30:24 I think,
1:30:24 you know,
1:30:25 uh,
1:30:25 all of this has been really relevant and helpful.
1:30:28 Uh,
1:30:28 we hope we will have,
1:30:29 uh,
1:30:29 this follow-up conversation on Thursday,
1:30:31 and,
1:30:32 uh,
1:30:32 I'm hoping,
1:30:33 of course,
1:30:33 that we will make it more participatory then and,
1:30:35 and hear more also from,
1:30:37 uh The perspective from the Caribbean so that we can get
1:30:40 some,
1:30:40 uh,
1:30:40 some of your views,
1:30:42 uh,
1:30:42 and recommendations on how to continue this.
1:30:44 So again,
1:30:45 thank you very much for this.
1:30:46 I think it was very helpful and thank you,
1:30:48 Bernard and team for organizing
1:30:50 and,
1:30:50 and looking forward to have the conversation on Thursday.
1:30:55 Thank you all.
1:30:58 Uh,
1:31:02 Thank you and stay tuned to receive the recording.
1:31:05 Bye-bye.
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