01:00 Good morning.
01:01 Good afternoon.
01:02 Good evening to all of our attendees
01:04 who are joining us today from around the world.
01:07 My name is Nai Yun Xin.
01:09 I'm a senior consultant with the World
01:10 Bank Group working on green Competitiveness agenda,
01:14 including the topics related to the circular economy.
01:18 I'd like to welcome all of you
01:20 to the 9th session of our learning
01:22 series
01:23 on the circular economy and private sector development.
01:30 Today,
01:30 we'll be focusing on the construction industry.
01:38 And how circular economy solutions look like
01:40 across the complex construction value chain,
01:43 what has been done,
01:44 what technologies and solutions are available,
01:46 and how we might be able
01:48 to facilitate the transition towards circular construction
01:51 with well-designed policies,
01:52 regulations,
01:53 products,
01:54 technologies,
01:55 and business models.
01:56 Previous sessions from this learning series
01:59 have covered
01:59 A wide range of topics including textiles,
02:02 plastics,
02:02 digital technologies,
02:04 finance,
02:04 and others.
02:05 And future session we'll explore circularity in the food and agriculture systems.
02:10 In case you didn't have a chance to join our previous sessions,
02:14 we'd like to encourage you to visit our
02:16 dedicated website where recordings and materials from previous sessions
02:20 are available.
02:22 I'd like to um quickly share and run through the agenda for today.
02:36 As you will see,
02:37 we have a fantastic and dynamic set of experts and
02:40 speakers whom I will introduce in more detail later on.
02:44 After opening remarks,
02:45 we'll have the first presentation that will focus on
02:48 the overall landscape of the circular economy model,
02:50 applied to the construction industry value chain,
02:53 and briefly go through opportunities and challenges that
02:56 we will discuss during our panel discussion today.
02:59 The first panel will leverage the perspective of industry associations,
03:03 businesses,
03:04 and academics who are already engaged in circular construction.
03:07 We'll focus on some readily available technologies,
03:10 innovations,
03:11 and business models
03:12 that these industries are adopting to integrate the circular economy approach
03:17 and what impacts these technologies and businesses
03:21 solutions can have on the decarbonization
03:23 of the construction material manufacturing sectors.
03:26 Uh,
03:27 especially focusing on the cement and concrete sectors and those operating
03:31 in developing countries.
03:33 The second panel will leverage the expertise of researchers and practitioners.
03:37 We'll discuss the bigger picture
03:39 and how to create the ecosystem,
03:41 partnership,
03:42 demand,
03:43 and markets for circular construction.
03:45 If you,
03:45 the audience have questions,
03:47 please use the Q&A function to post them.
03:50 We'll try to cover as many questions as possible
03:52 in the open panel discussion and Q&A session later.
03:57 Finally,
03:57 uh,
03:58 before,
03:58 um,
04:00 giving,
04:00 uh,
04:01 the word to our first two speakers,
04:03 I'd like to thank my colleague,
04:04 John Anagnosto,
04:05 Evan Jacques,
04:06 uh,
04:07 Li Thu,
04:07 Marek Stennek,
04:08 uh,
04:09 Steck,
04:09 uh,
04:10 Nidal Mahmoud,
04:10 Zina,
04:11 Gemma Vivas,
04:12 uh,
04:13 Dari Carranta,
04:14 Ein Kuician,
04:15 and IT specialists for all their help
04:17 in putting this session together.
04:19 With that said,
04:20 I'd like to introduce our first two speakers,
04:23 Demetrios Papathanasio and Sabin Clark.
04:26 Doctor Papathanasio is the World Bank Group
04:29 Global Director
04:31 at Energy and Extractives Global Practice.
04:34 Demetrios has worked for more than 20 years
04:37 with the World Bank on Energy and Infrastructure
04:40 in Africa,
04:41 Latin America,
04:42 Asia,
04:43 and many other regions.
04:46 He was responsible for a portfolio
04:48 of more than $10 billion
04:50 has contributed to developing energy policies in several countries,
04:54 and worked extensively to increase renewable energy projects around the globe.
04:58 He holds a PhD in Energy and the Environment from Imperial College in London,
05:02 UK.
05:04 Sabin Shaurk is Manager at the Global manufacturing
05:07 and distribution finance at the International Finance Corporation,
05:11 a member of the World Bank Group that
05:12 focuses on private sector development in developing countries.
05:16 She worked globally on complex infrastructure investments
05:20 and as the global head of manufacturing in IFC's manufacturing,
05:24 agribusines.
05:24 And Services department
05:26 Sabin leads a diverse team responsible for
05:29 IFC investments in the manufacturing sector.
05:32 Prior to joining the IFC,
05:34 she worked in a commercial bank in Germany
05:36 and holds a master's and PhD
05:39 in Economic geography and Economics from the University of Hanover,
05:43 Germany,
05:44 Demetrius.
05:49 Thank you very much,
05:50 Nayon,
05:51 and uh good evening in Asia.
05:53 Good afternoon in Europe.
05:54 Good morning here in uh
05:56 in the Americas.
05:58 Uh,
05:58 first of all,
05:59 let me thank you for inviting me to,
06:01 to open uh this session.
06:03 And let me start by uh
06:06 trying to uh
06:08 lay down why this is really so important for us in the World Bank
06:12 and why we think that the circular economy,
06:14 and especially in construction
06:16 is an area where we need to be focusing more.
06:19 And uh I would really like to thank all
06:22 the specialists that are joining our panels and contributing
06:25 their knowledge and experience.
06:28 Uh,
06:28 so we're working hard actually these very days on
06:31 updating the World Bank's climate change action plan.
06:34 And we're looking hard at how we can help countries towards a low carbon
06:40 pathway
06:41 and how can we assist
06:43 the world
06:44 as we're moving towards a net zero by mid-century
06:48 or earlier if possible.
06:50 And clearly one of the hardest
06:54 areas of the economy
06:55 to decarbonize
06:57 is on construction.
06:59 Iron,
07:00 steel,
07:01 concrete
07:02 are major contributors
07:04 of CO2 emissions because of the way they're produced.
07:08 And
07:09 they are also a very significant part of the economy
07:13 everywhere where we work in the developing world.
07:15 Construction industry is
07:18 a key driver of economic growth
07:20 in developing countries.
07:22 It provides
07:24 millions,
07:25 probably hundreds of millions of jobs,
07:28 uh,
07:29 directly and indirectly around the world,
07:31 and it is,
07:32 um,
07:33 and it is the motto of growth.
07:36 So,
07:36 whatever we can do
07:38 to lower the intensity of carbon emissions in the construction industry
07:44 is necessary
07:45 if the world can meet Paris Agreement targets.
07:49 I think
07:50 I can see a lot of prospect and uh I'm optimistic about what can be done
07:55 in changing the fuel in construction industry.
07:59 Uh,
07:59 we know,
07:59 for instance,
08:00 that there's already
08:01 uh major construction equipment,
08:04 um,
08:05 trucks and excavators that
08:08 are able to run already on hydrogen,
08:10 and this is really very encouraging.
08:13 But,
08:13 uh,
08:14 it is much harder to think
08:16 how we can expand the concepts of circular economy.
08:19 With the bulk material
08:22 such as concrete and iron.
08:24 These are really difficult areas,
08:27 uh,
08:27 and extremely sensitive
08:29 in the economics
08:30 for the jobs
08:31 and for politicians.
08:33 So this is why we are extremely interested in
08:36 finding out new ways to think about these challenges.
08:39 Uh,
08:40 and I'm really looking forward to hearing ideas
08:43 and experiences
08:45 that we have,
08:46 uh,
08:47 with all the experts in the panel.
08:49 About how we can help our countries with advice,
08:52 with policies,
08:53 uh,
08:54 so that they can move faster
08:56 into modernizing the way they do construction
08:59 and,
08:59 uh,
09:00 in reducing
09:01 the waste that is still enormous
09:04 across the industry.
09:05 So thank you again for having me.
09:07 Thank you for joining,
09:09 uh,
09:09 this event and looking forward to the conversations.
09:11 Thank you.
09:17 So,
09:18 uh,
09:18 good morning,
09:19 good afternoon,
09:19 good evening,
09:20 uh,
09:20 all around.
09:21 Um,
09:22 so I,
09:22 I'm also very
09:24 excited to be part and opening up this
09:26 session on circular economy in the construction industry.
09:30 And I think the private sector has to play a major role
09:34 in finding solutions in all value chains,
09:36 and construction materials are challenging
09:39 as it is such a vast sector,
09:41 depending on commodities which are usually produced at
09:44 scale and solutions need to be at scale,
09:47 and they also are used in local markets.
09:49 Construction materials are not easily to be transported and
09:53 go that easily from one place to another.
09:57 And there are many,
09:58 many private sector players along the value chain.
10:01 So that makes it really hard to find the
10:03 right place of where interventions have to be.
10:06 However,
10:06 at the core of circular economy solutions is behavioral change.
10:11 And
10:12 that at the corporate level.
10:15 We need commitment from companies
10:17 to make this change and incorporate
10:19 circular economy principles and their strategies
10:22 into their core strategies and as part of their core business,
10:26 not in corporate social responsibility.
10:29 So new technologies alone,
10:30 alternative materials
10:32 cannot
10:33 be the whole
10:35 game.
10:35 Corporate cultures and leadership is absolutely key
10:38 at the core at the company levels.
10:40 So in construction materials manufacturing,
10:42 we look at the material itself and see if there
10:45 are alternatives and materials that help us save CO2,
10:48 and we look at the use of energy uh to transfer the material from one state to another.
10:53 As we all know,
10:53 this is where the CO2 emissions are happening.
10:56 So you will hear a lot about
10:58 what can be done in reducing energy use and material use,
11:01 such as useless,
11:03 just use less
11:04 of both,
11:05 have longer lifetimes for the materials.
11:09 Repair,
11:10 reuse,
11:10 recycle,
11:11 and have alternative materials and alternative production practices like,
11:15 uh,
11:16 finalize the products,
11:17 3D printing.
11:19 Uh,
11:19 so there's a lot of opportunities,
11:21 but technology alone will not lead us to the solutions.
11:25 So more focus is needed on corporate responsibilities,
11:28 change of production practices,
11:30 and what private companies can do.
11:33 The public sector sets the frame
11:35 and not just behavior of corporate players and consumers.
11:40 The goal has to be
11:41 to reduce
11:43 the CO2 emissions per dollar of material.
11:47 So I'm so very excited to hear more of,
11:49 uh,
11:50 what the ideas are in this panel,
11:52 uh,
11:52 in these two panels,
11:53 and I'm looking forward to this webinar.
11:55 Thank you very much.
12:00 Thank you,
12:00 Demetrios and Sabin for introducing the topic and for your opening remarks.
12:11 Now,
12:12 um,
12:13 we'll dig a little bit deeper.
12:16 Into
12:17 what circular economy means for the construction sector.
12:21 And how it,
12:22 its approach looks like when it is integrated across its value chain.
12:27 For that,
12:27 I'd like to briefly introduce
12:29 Carol Lemons,
12:30 who will give us an overview of the landscape for circular construction
12:35 and raise key questions and issues
12:37 that we will explore throughout both of our panel discussions.
12:42 Carol is global advisory services leader at Arup.
12:45 He has been instrumental in Arup circular economy work to date
12:50 and coordinated Arup's work as Ellen MacArthur Foundation's knowledge partner
12:55 for the built environment.
12:57 His work focuses on.
12:58 Translating the circular economy approach and its principles into practice
13:02 by identifying challenges,
13:04 enablers,
13:05 and opportunities
13:06 available to Arro and others in the construction
13:09 and built environment sectors.
13:11 Carol,
13:12 the floor is yours.
13:19 Thank you,
13:20 Nayo,
13:21 and
13:23 Let me.
13:24 Presents
13:27 So,
13:28 hi,
13:28 everyone,
13:28 and,
13:29 um,
13:30 I'm,
13:30 I'm really privileged to,
13:32 uh,
13:32 attend your event,
13:33 and I'm also privileged to work for an organization that is really committed
13:37 to set the built environment on a circular economy path.
13:41 And
13:41 actually,
13:42 the concept of the circular economy is really
13:44 permeating all industries and that is including the built environment.
13:48 But I said,
13:48 it's a last,
13:49 large,
13:50 uh,
13:50 um,
13:50 um,
13:51 um,
13:52 industry.
13:52 So,
13:53 um,
13:53 it will take time.
13:55 And to force a circular economy,
13:56 uh,
13:57 within this sector,
13:57 I think we really need dedicated frameworks and sense
14:00 of principles to underpin the direction for our sector.
14:03 So
14:04 let me,
14:05 for those that are less familiar with circular economy,
14:08 given high
14:09 level perspective on the concept.
14:11 So it's aiming to create an ecosystem where
14:15 natural capital is being preserved and enhanced,
14:19 where we try to
14:21 optimize renewables,
14:22 where we try to
14:24 minimize waste and we,
14:25 we try to design out the negative externalities,
14:29 and the aim is to move away from a current take,
14:31 make,
14:32 and disposes.
14:34 So we embrace three principles which is
14:36 actually about designing out waste and pollution.
14:39 It is about keeping materials in use and regenerating natural systems.
14:44 And the idea is then that
14:46 assets,
14:46 products,
14:47 components,
14:48 parts of the infrastructure,
14:49 whole buildings are held in repetitive loops
14:52 with a focus on maintaining their value as high as possible,
14:55 um,
14:56 um,
14:56 as high as possible,
14:58 and that we try to minimize actually,
15:00 um,
15:01 reuse or recycling,
15:03 which are the last resort.
15:04 So
15:05 circular economy
15:06 is explicitly looking at different paradigms.
15:09 And for me,
15:10 circular economy is not just a solution,
15:12 but it's a mindset.
15:13 It's a
15:14 support to systematically reach,
15:16 um,
15:16 rethink our system where we work in our current practices,
15:19 and it's an outcome really for a more sustainable future.
15:24 So,
15:24 uh,
15:24 at high level,
15:25 uh,
15:25 looking at,
15:26 at the globe to start with,
15:27 well,
15:27 at current GDP growth,
15:29 pace of GDP growth,
15:30 we are really
15:31 crossing or exceeding the planetary boundaries in an irreversible way.
15:35 And,
15:36 uh,
15:36 some of you may already be aware,
15:37 but that's sometimes a really endangering continuity or growth of economies.
15:43 And then knowing this and the fact that we do a
15:45 relatively poor job in reusing materials should make us rethink how we
15:49 Live how we consume,
15:51 travel,
15:52 create,
15:52 behave,
15:53 and invest.
15:55 And the construction industry and that is the largest
15:58 consumer of raw materials and yet less 1/3 of
16:02 um waste coming from construction or demolition is being recycled or reused,
16:06 let alone be circular.
16:08 Um,
16:09 and it's also one of the largest,
16:11 if not the largest,
16:12 uh,
16:13 economic activity,
16:14 which is projected to grow,
16:15 um,
16:16 uh,
16:17 double the size by 2030.
16:19 And this growth is,
16:20 uh,
16:21 largely influenced by the growth in China,
16:23 US,
16:23 and India,
16:24 and those
16:25 three represent 57%
16:27 of the total volume.
16:29 And looking to an emerging economies such as India,
16:33 the construction industry represents 8% of global GDP,
16:37 and equally the carbon footprint is at the same kind of enormous numbers.
16:42 And for example,
16:42 the cement industry only
16:44 is responsible for 8% of global
16:46 carbon emissions.
16:48 So it's safe to say and fair to say that the
16:51 current global construction industry is really addicted to materials and has made
16:56 uh not sufficient progress to address the topics as mentioned earlier,
17:00 and that is then to say beyond recycling
17:03 of materials because that is fairly well developed.
17:07 But even with any feasible,
17:09 um,
17:09 assumption of 100% carbon capture and storage,
17:13 the materials industry really faces large challenges.
17:16 To give an example,
17:18 metals industry,
17:19 uh,
17:19 according to research we did in the UK
17:22 needs to achieve 43% of efficiency gains,
17:25 which should be uh additional,
17:27 uh,
17:27 added,
17:28 added with 5% through design.
17:31 And of course there's many regulations related to the price of carbon
17:35 which are now cascading into environmental standards
17:39 and driving rapid change.
17:40 And later on in panel one,
17:43 the discussion will focus on the cement and concrete industry
17:46 given their high energy and carbon intensity.
17:50 But circular economy can really by rethinking how we are,
17:53 how we are acting,
17:55 can contribute to,
17:56 uh,
17:57 uh,
17:57 carbon-related climate change,
17:59 or for example,
18:00 uh,
18:00 contributing to the ban on virgin materials.
18:04 So to apply the concept of the circular economy to the built environment,
18:08 we really need to understand
18:10 and rethink the whole system varying from
18:12 the early-stage investment decisions through design,
18:16 through
18:17 development,
18:17 construction,
18:18 through operations and divestments.
18:21 And the circular economy,
18:22 when applied at all stages of,
18:24 of,
18:24 uh,
18:25 of construction,
18:26 uh,
18:26 will address inefficiencies.
18:28 So mapping out the system really helps us to
18:32 understand where circular economy interventions
18:35 will have the biggest impact,
18:37 and this requires involvement of all public and private
18:40 stakeholders,
18:41 some of which have been displayed on screen.
18:44 And again,
18:45 coming back to India to illustrate the potential of the circular economy by,
18:49 uh,
18:49 and we did research on that one with the Ellen MacArthur Foundation,
18:52 McKinsey and Arup.
18:53 Um,
18:53 the,
18:54 the,
18:55 um,
18:55 about 60% of the people will live in,
18:58 um,
18:58 in uh urban environments uh by 2050.
19:03 And this unprecedented growth is so rapid that,
19:05 uh,
19:06 almost 70% of the building stock that will be used
19:10 in that time is yet to be built.
19:12 So the choices we make now will
19:14 really determine India's mid and long-term developments
19:17 and that
19:18 the research I was referring to
19:20 um
19:22 was actually uh indicating a potential annual benefits
19:26 for um for India of $76 billion US dollars
19:30 uh compared to current development paths.
19:32 So apart from being more sustainable,
19:34 it also develops an economic perspective which is
19:38 key in a circular economy approach.
19:42 Let me share
19:43 with you two examples of interventions from practice,
19:46 and one of them is in linear infrastructure structure
19:49 in this case for high-speed 2 in the UK.
19:52 We considered with the clients and the industry partners,
19:56 uh,
19:56 how circular economy could be applied to all stages of design,
20:00 construction and operations.
20:02 And it was applied to a depot in Calvert in Buck Buckinghamshire.
20:06 The research found out by implanting,
20:08 implementing circular economy principles,
20:10 approximately 8% of the KPE could be reduced
20:14 and,
20:15 uh,
20:15 upfront 90,000 tons,
20:17 um,
20:18 uh,
20:18 of materials could be saved.
20:20 So these interventions are super relevant to
20:23 underpin the impact of reduced carbon emissions
20:26 from optimized and reduced material consumptions,
20:29 and on the right hand side you see
20:31 some indicators over 60 years assessment period.
20:37 A second example is in property development and
20:40 concerns not only the development of property,
20:42 but also the operations.
20:44 So
20:45 our large metropoles are facing constant change.
20:48 And when there is constant change,
20:50 you know,
20:50 across the life cycle,
20:52 also this drives different ways of design and operations,
20:55 and this,
20:55 this encourages to
20:58 Uh,
20:58 flexibly meet the,
21:00 the,
21:00 the changing demands of people and organizations and ensure
21:03 that during this,
21:04 uh,
21:05 life stages,
21:05 the value of resources underneath will be preserved.
21:09 So in a recent assessment of real projects in Aarhus in Amsterdam,
21:13 London,
21:13 Milan,
21:14 and Berlin,
21:15 we explored the opportunities of applying new
21:17 business paradigms by answering the question,
21:20 where does actually value get lost?
21:22 And appreciating these were European examples of case studies,
21:27 uh,
21:27 on,
21:27 on real projects.
21:28 There's also,
21:29 they are also really relevant for emerging countries as
21:32 new models are universal to the urban development context.
21:36 And some of them are even more pressing in emerging,
21:39 uh,
21:39 economies where,
21:40 for example,
21:41 there's land scarcity
21:42 or where the,
21:44 uh,
21:44 supply of,
21:45 um,
21:46 Uh,
21:47 office space or residential space cannot keep up with demand,
21:49 and I mentioned India,
21:51 it's really apparent there.
21:53 So this research actually,
21:54 um,
21:55 revealed real,
21:56 uh,
21:57 financial gains and the numbers are shown on screen
22:00 combined with real environmental and societal,
22:03 um,
22:03 uh,
22:04 gains
22:05 and uh by just rethinking business models
22:07 and responsibilities across the value chain.
22:11 So in the past 15 years we've seen the circular economy change
22:15 from an interesting concept to a leading paradigm for governments and industries.
22:21 Circular economy is now front and center
22:24 of government agendas
22:26 globally,
22:26 and they sit across all sectors.
22:29 It is embraced by Europe,
22:30 Europe's,
22:31 uh,
22:31 new Green Deal.
22:32 It's underpinning China's 145-year plan,
22:36 and it really provides a perspective for,
22:39 for emerging economies such as India,
22:41 and I referenced to some research we've done on that one.
22:44 Circular economy and carbon-related carbon chains are fully intertwined,
22:47 and
22:48 this is one of the main themes that's called COP 26.
22:52 So we see whole industries now responding to these large agendas.
22:56 Increasingly new policies are paralleled by new
23:01 approaches and investments and
23:03 quite recently,
23:05 I'm talking about the last 12
23:06 months,
23:07 you see now
23:08 uh green financing and synonyms
23:11 move to the move towards the norm rather than being the unusual.
23:15 And also at an ever-increasing pace,
23:17 the construction industry is picking up modular construction,
23:20 exploring concepts of building material banks,
23:23 material passports,
23:25 OEMs,
23:25 uh,
23:25 rethink the products for deconstruction,
23:28 um,
23:28 they rethink
23:30 uh resources ownership
23:31 and drive new business models such as products and components as a service.
23:35 So based on many indicators,
23:37 one could expect that uh
23:39 circular economy is there to last
23:41 and will really be the,
23:42 the norm in,
23:43 in the built environment too.
23:46 So
23:47 In my view,
23:48 the proof of concept is there,
23:49 and it is supported by many example of projects,
23:52 and on screen you see the building called Haut which is
23:55 really challenging the status quo of building in wood and concrete
23:59 and at least
24:01 make a plea for applying much more wood in
24:04 those places where you typically wouldn't see that before.
24:07 And it's not only about bending,
24:09 but also making better use of,
24:11 for example,
24:11 existing
24:12 materials as steel and concrete.
24:14 So for follow up in the panel discussion,
24:16 I'd like to address 3 questions,
24:17 and they're,
24:18 they're also projected on screen.
24:21 So I think it's really relevant that we
24:24 start understanding what we need to do
24:25 to upscale circular economy to the standard that
24:28 approach in the constructed world.
24:30 And as mentioned before,
24:32 also better understand
24:33 what role do governments play and,
24:35 and potentially also,
24:37 um,
24:37 um,
24:38 uh,
24:38 where they cannot play a role and where the private sector is uh on the ball.
24:43 What is the competitive advantage of a circular economy
24:46 that is needed to compete with current predominantly unsustainable forms of
24:51 construction of manufacturing materials,
24:53 design,
24:53 construction,
24:54 operations,
24:54 and demolition of today?
24:56 And finally,
24:58 we do recognize that the financial sector
24:59 is mission critical in achieving goals too.
25:02 They are an important driver for the constructed world.
25:05 So
25:05 what does it take to turn circular solutions into
25:08 really attractive investments?
25:10 And not just better,
25:12 but much better than existing ones.
25:14 And then,
25:14 of course,
25:15 what is the role of the World Bank in this?
25:17 Thank you for listening and I'm looking forward to the discussions.
25:28 Excellent presentation.
25:29 Thank you very much,
25:30 Carol,
25:30 for providing the overview of the circular construction value chains,
25:33 highlighting some of the potential opportunities and solutions
25:37 and the role of various stakeholders,
25:39 public and private,
25:40 and the need for a systematic thinking for scaling up the circular economy
25:44 for the construction sector in both the global North and the global South.
25:48 The questions you raised at the end of the presentation were also very on point,
25:53 which I think we'll come back to,
25:55 uh,
25:55 during our panel discussion.
25:58 I'd like to
26:00 Move along and introduce
26:03 our first panel speakers,
26:05 starting with our moderator,
26:07 Robert Madera,
26:09 who's kindly offered to manage and inspire dynamic discussions in the first panel,
26:14 as well as in the open panel discussion and Q&A session after the 2nd panel.
26:19 Robert Madera is the founder and uh managing director
26:23 and head of research of the Global CW Group.
26:26 He's responsible for all intellectual capital,
26:29 project management,
26:30 research,
26:30 and client relationships at the group.
26:33 He holds an MBA from the.
26:35 Harvard Business School
26:36 and graduated from Brown University.
26:39 He works with heavy building material companies worldwide,
26:43 including Global Cement Groups,
26:44 equipment vendors,
26:45 and sector investors,
26:47 stakeholders who are all relevant and important to this topic.
26:51 And now,
26:51 uh,
26:52 to our panelist,
26:53 Jeremy Gregory is a research scientist in
26:55 the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering
26:58 at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology MIT.
27:02 And the executive director of the Concrete Sustainability Hub.
27:06 He studies the economic and environmental implications
27:09 of engineering and system design decisions,
27:12 particularly in the area of materials production and recovery systems.
27:16 Andrew Minson is the director of concrete
27:19 and sustainable construction at the Global Cement
27:22 and Concrete Association,
27:24 where he leads the work on a global
27:26 roadmap for the sector towards carbon neutral concrete
27:30 by 2050.
27:31 Andrew has a PhD in engineering from the University of Oxford
27:36 and worked with Arup for 10 years on various projects around the world.
27:40 He's a fellow of both the Institution of Civil Engineers
27:43 and the Institution of Structural Engineers.
27:46 Eric Brudon is the deputy CEO of Industrial and Innovation at VCAT,
27:50 a global cement manufacturer that is implementing
27:53 innovative solutions and offerings
27:56 to increase resource recovery,
27:58 waste minimization,
27:59 and decarbonization.
28:04 Great,
28:05 good morning.
28:06 Good afternoon,
28:07 good evening around the world.
28:09 Um,
28:09 thank you for that,
28:10 uh,
28:10 introduction.
28:11 Um,
28:12 Nayon,
28:13 and I'm very excited to be here today and be part of this,
28:16 um,
28:17 opportunity to share some of the latest thinking on the
28:20 circular economy and in particular as it
28:21 relates to the construction materials sector.
28:25 So the panel today will talk about
28:28 different ways to rethink the circularity of the construction materials,
28:32 in particular supply side,
28:34 uh,
28:34 which
28:35 generates a lot of the
28:37 greenhouse gas emissions and has the environmental impact that
28:41 we just heard from Carol discussed in the previous,
28:44 uh,
28:45 presentation.
28:46 We're focusing on cement and concrete given there
28:50 are the intrinsic energy intensive,
28:52 the carbon
28:53 emission,
28:54 um,
28:55 and CO2 generation that is inherent in the product,
28:58 and both the manufacturing and,
29:00 and sort of the intrinsic materials,
29:02 as well as the resource intensity by which
29:06 the material supply side essentially consumes.
29:10 So we'll focus in on,
29:12 on these two segments,
29:13 although there are many other uh materials of course
29:16 as well that are important for the construction sector
29:19 and today we have,
29:20 as Nayun was,
29:21 um,
29:22 introducing three panelists that are real true experts in this area,
29:26 both from a research perspective
29:28 as well as an industry,
29:29 um,
29:30 perspective
29:31 and a true practitioner from VCAT.
29:34 So with that uh brief introduction,
29:36 we'll start off with a,
29:38 a little bit of an insight
29:40 into
29:41 some of the technologies,
29:43 the solutions,
29:44 the strategies,
29:44 innovation that's taking place in this space
29:47 and really think about what
29:49 we can do as an industry to move ahead towards uh improved targets,
29:55 better overall environmental performance,
29:58 and the overall
30:00 um circularity enabling of this industry.
30:03 So with that,
30:04 I'll turn it over to Doctor Jeremy Gregory to give us a,
30:07 a presentation,
30:08 a 10-minute presentation on this,
30:10 and then we'll continue
30:11 picking up where he leaves off and,
30:13 and dive into some interesting conversations and share our ideas.
30:16 So on that note,
30:17 I'll turn it over to you,
30:18 Jeremy.
30:21 Great.
30:21 Thank you very much.
30:22 Let me just share my screen.
30:28 OK.
30:30 All right.
30:31 Um,
30:32 so I'm delighted to,
30:33 to,
30:33 to be here today to talk to you about um some
30:36 of the work that we're doing in the concrete sustainability hub
30:39 and more importantly to,
30:41 to sort of give you a foundation for the rest of our um discussions here today
30:46 about,
30:46 uh,
30:46 cement and concrete and what are opportunities to lower the environmental impact.
30:51 Um,
30:52 so just in terms of a
30:53 basic definition,
30:54 you know,
30:55 Concrete is a mixture.
30:56 It's a mixture of these five,
30:58 basic ingredients,
31:00 coarse aggregates or gravel,
31:02 fine aggregates or sand,
31:04 uh,
31:04 a binder that I'll get into,
31:06 um,
31:07 where there's many different options.
31:08 That binder you mix with water and it hardens and it keeps those
31:11 aggregates together.
31:13 And then we also use admixtures,
31:14 uh,
31:14 which are chemicals that can be used to slightly alter the,
31:17 um,
31:18 the performance of the concrete.
31:20 What a lot of people don't realize
31:22 is that,
31:22 you know,
31:23 there's almost infinite different combinations of
31:25 these basic ingredients that we can make
31:28 to meet many different performance requirements.
31:30 Um,
31:31 sometimes we're looking for strength
31:33 after just a high strength after just a couple
31:35 of days and we call that early strength.
31:38 Some Sometimes it's more important for us to meet what we call late strength,
31:41 which would be strength after about 28 days or 56,
31:44 something like that.
31:45 And sometimes,
31:46 uh,
31:46 constructability,
31:47 durability,
31:48 or other um drivers.
31:50 So,
31:50 so the key thing is that,
31:51 you know,
31:51 we can make these in many different ways
31:53 to uh meet different uh performance requirements.
31:57 Um,
31:57 kind of diving into this component on the,
31:59 uh,
31:59 binders.
32:00 There are many different binders that we can use in,
32:02 in concrete.
32:03 Um,
32:04 probably the one that you're most familiar with is,
32:06 uh,
32:06 is cement or we call it,
32:08 uh,
32:08 uh,
32:08 Portland cement.
32:09 Um,
32:10 and,
32:10 uh,
32:10 that's the,
32:11 the manufactured product that we
32:13 mostly think of as being used as a binder,
32:15 but there are some others
32:17 including natural posolons,
32:18 that's what,
32:19 uh,
32:19 the Romans were using thousands of years ago.
32:22 There's also calcine clays is another material that we can use,
32:26 and,
32:26 uh,
32:26 you know,
32:27 Relevant to this discussion about circular economy,
32:29 there's many different waste materials that we can use as well,
32:32 including fly ash from coal-fired power plants,
32:35 granulated blast furnace slag from steel and iron production,
32:39 uh,
32:39 and,
32:40 uh,
32:41 sometimes now also crushed up uh post-consumer glass.
32:45 The key thing to know is that,
32:46 you know,
32:47 the composition
32:48 of all these things and their availability really varies significantly,
32:52 and also the way they affect the performance in,
32:55 in concrete also varies.
32:56 So,
32:57 a big reason why we use so much uh
32:59 of this uh cement is because we,
33:01 we can really tailor exactly what the chemistry is and hence the uh performance,
33:06 whereas sometimes that's a bit more difficult than these alternatives.
33:10 Now when it comes to environmental impact,
33:13 um,
33:14 you know,
33:14 cement is really what's,
33:15 uh,
33:16 a big driver in concrete's environmental impact.
33:19 Um,
33:19 and this right here,
33:20 this,
33:20 this pie chart is showing,
33:22 uh,
33:22 uh,
33:22 a mass distribution of a,
33:24 a typical concrete mixture and what you can see is by,
33:27 by weight or mass,
33:29 you know,
33:29 mostly it's the aggregate and the cement isn't that big,
33:32 it's usually gonna be 10 to 15%.
33:35 Whereas when we look at the greenhouse
33:36 gas emissions associated with producing that concrete,
33:39 you can see it's mostly about uh the cement and sometimes that number can be,
33:43 you know,
33:44 90% uh as well.
33:46 So,
33:47 um,
33:47 so,
33:48 so a lot of times when we talk about
33:49 the environmental impact of concrete and reducing it,
33:53 uh,
33:53 this is the reason why cement is often the,
33:56 the target.
33:57 Now,
33:58 producing cement
33:59 is a really capital,
34:01 uh,
34:01 and energy-intensive process.
34:03 This is showing,
34:04 um,
34:05 kind of a,
34:06 a,
34:06 a,
34:06 a high-level view of what happens at a cement plant.
34:09 They're basically
34:10 mining,
34:11 uh,
34:11 uh,
34:11 limestone,
34:12 crushing it and heating it up to very high temperatures,
34:15 about 1500
34:17 °C.
34:18 It goes into a kiln
34:20 where,
34:20 um,
34:21 uh,
34:21 we have emissions associated with,
34:23 with,
34:23 uh,
34:24 with generating the energy to get at such a high temperature,
34:27 and then there's also a transformation that occurs where
34:29 that limestone is turned into what we call clinker,
34:32 and that,
34:32 that,
34:33 uh,
34:33 has process emissions associated with it.
34:36 Um,
34:36 then it's cooled,
34:37 and then we can blend it with some other materials,
34:41 uh,
34:41 as well sometimes,
34:42 and then we grind it,
34:43 uh,
34:43 with a,
34:44 a product that comes out right here.
34:46 So when it comes to reducing emissions in the production of cement,
34:50 there are basically 4 things we generally talk about.
34:53 One is,
34:54 uh,
34:54 the,
34:55 the improving the energy efficiency of the plant.
34:58 Two is,
34:59 uh,
34:59 is,
35:00 is switching the kind of fuels that we use generally to get those high temperatures,
35:04 we need to use fossil fuels
35:06 and there's
35:07 a lot of proposals to use,
35:08 uh,
35:09 other,
35:09 other fuels like uh waste materials or,
35:12 um,
35:12 uh,
35:12 bio-based materials.
35:14 Um,
35:15 when I,
35:15 uh,
35:16 it,
35:16 it,
35:16 the,
35:16 the,
35:17 the clinker as I mentioned,
35:18 that's what's generally creating,
35:20 uh,
35:20 a process emissions.
35:22 So when we blend here,
35:23 if we can mix in other kinds of waste
35:24 materials or other materials that will lower emissions.
35:27 And then lastly,
35:28 there are also opportunities to use carbon capture um here as well.
35:33 Um,
35:33 in,
35:34 in kind of,
35:34 uh,
35:35 just a high-level summary of what are the different solutions,
35:38 many of which can be used today
35:40 for lowering cement and concrete's environmental impact.
35:43 You know,
35:43 I just mentioned several of them when it comes to cement,
35:46 and,
35:46 uh,
35:47 I put in bold here the things that are used today.
35:49 Uh,
35:50 there's,
35:50 there's a lot of work that's already being done in these spaces.
35:53 Another one I didn't really talk about is that there are
35:55 different formulations of cement that we can use that have a,
35:58 a,
35:58 a,
35:59 a,
35:59 a different chemistry and have different
36:01 Uh,
36:01 have lower
36:02 environmental impacts associated with production
36:05 and as I mentioned,
36:06 we,
36:06 we can do,
36:06 um,
36:07 carbon capture.
36:08 On the concrete side,
36:10 there's all kinds of different opportunities to use low-carbon binders.
36:13 Some of those are different forms of cement,
36:15 like we'll,
36:15 we'll talk about Portland limestone cement.
36:18 Uh,
36:18 is one option or other kinds of blended cements,
36:20 um,
36:21 but there's also those,
36:22 uh,
36:22 alternative binders which is sometimes
36:24 called supplementary cementitious materials.
36:26 Um,
36:27 but I think one that's kind of undersold is just,
36:31 is simply trying to optimize mixtures more to have a lower,
36:35 uh,
36:35 environmental footprint and I'll,
36:37 I'll talk a little bit about,
36:38 about how we can achieve that through performance-based specifications,
36:42 um,
36:42 as opposed to more prescriptive specifications that say what's in the mixture.
36:46 Um,
36:47 there's also some opportunities I'll talk about,
36:49 uh,
36:49 to produce concrete using captured carbon.
36:52 So it can actually be really a sink for any kind of,
36:55 uh,
36:55 uh,
36:56 captured carbon that we use.
36:57 Uh,
36:58 in the future,
36:58 there's also some opportunities
37:00 to create,
37:01 uh,
37:01 aggregates using captured carbon as well.
37:04 Now the
37:05 Two key barriers to increasing adoption of these,
37:08 I think are really risk aversion
37:10 and cost,
37:11 and I put them
37:12 in that order intentionally,
37:14 um,
37:15 and the reason is that,
37:16 uh,
37:17 you know,
37:17 not all of these solutions have to,
37:19 to cost very much.
37:20 If anything,
37:21 sometimes they can cost less,
37:23 but oftentimes there's an aversion
37:25 to try
37:26 something new,
37:27 uh,
37:27 and that's gonna be a significant barrier.
37:30 Um,
37:31 I mentioned,
37:31 uh,
37:32 this,
37:32 this captured carbon,
37:33 uh,
37:34 which is,
37:34 is really been particularly intriguing to many people,
37:37 including people outside of the
37:39 construction sector who are just interested
37:41 in what are different opportunities to use captured carbon.
37:44 Um,
37:44 and the way that this happens is that
37:46 we can capture carbon from any industrial source,
37:49 uh,
37:49 usually that's,
37:50 that's,
37:50 that's,
37:50 uh,
37:51 uh,
37:51 a power plants or,
37:52 you know,
37:52 that are generating electricity,
37:54 but of course it could be cement plants.
37:56 Then we combine them with some type of alkaline reactant
37:59 and there's a,
38:00 a process that,
38:01 that takes place called mineralization.
38:03 Um,
38:04 and from that we can create different types of construction products.
38:07 It can be,
38:08 uh,
38:08 binders,
38:09 it can be aggregates,
38:10 it can be precast products or
38:13 ready-mix,
38:13 uh,
38:14 concrete as well.
38:15 And I think one of the neat parts about this
38:17 is that this carbon sequestration in the concrete is permanent.
38:22 And what's interesting is that there are folks who have looked at
38:25 what are some different ways that we can utilize uh captured carbon.
38:29 Like you maybe hear people talk about CCUS which is carbon capture,
38:33 utilization,
38:34 and storage.
38:35 Um,
38:35 and on the storage side,
38:36 they're usually talking about our sequestration,
38:38 geologic sequestration,
38:39 whereas on this utilization side,
38:41 they're talking about different alternatives like,
38:43 uh,
38:44 you know,
38:44 obviously using it in concrete and aggregates,
38:46 but also fuels,
38:47 polymers,
38:48 chemicals.
38:49 And this assessment was done to show projections for
38:52 what can be the global market size and then the size
38:55 of the circles is about how much CO2 could be mitigated.
38:58 And what you can see is that concrete clearly has
39:01 a significantly higher market value for use of this captured carbon
39:05 and aggregates has the highest uh mitigation potential,
39:08 and that's because they can be used not just in concrete but in also
39:11 other things like asphalt pavements or just uh
39:13 any application that just uses aggregate.
39:16 Um,
39:17 so there are many different strategies that
39:19 can contribute to potentially creating carbon negative,
39:22 uh,
39:22 certainly net zero but possibly carbon negative concrete.
39:25 So,
39:25 To summarize those,
39:27 you know,
39:27 we can use
39:28 captured carbon,
39:29 uh,
39:29 in the concrete mixture itself,
39:32 um,
39:32 and then,
39:33 but we can also,
39:34 as I mentioned,
39:35 use,
39:35 uh,
39:36 captured carbon to create what we call synthetic limestone aggregates,
39:40 and those are those,
39:40 uh,
39:41 mineralized aggregates.
39:43 In the binder space,
39:44 there's all kinds of different options.
39:46 We can create blended cements.
39:48 Use those supplementary cementitious materials I mentioned.
39:51 I,
39:51 I,
39:52 I also mentioned there's alternative cement formulations that can be done,
39:56 um,
39:56 and,
39:57 uh,
39:57 we can also create binders from captured carbon,
39:59 and then we can produce cement with captured carbon as well.
40:02 Um,
40:03 and one thing I didn't touch on very much,
40:04 but I think admixtures have a really,
40:06 uh,
40:06 important role to play because if we start Creating
40:09 more unique mixtures with different kinds of binders,
40:12 admixtures,
40:13 um,
40:13 can,
40:13 can help play a role in terms of,
40:16 uh,
40:16 improving,
40:17 uh,
40:17 certain kinds of performance that might change.
40:19 I,
40:20 I think the key thing is,
40:21 it's not gonna be any single one of these.
40:23 We're really gonna,
40:24 um,
40:25 have to use
40:26 many different types of strategies to create those lowest carbon mixtures.
40:31 Um,
40:31 the other thing I just touched upon,
40:33 uh,
40:33 uh,
40:33 briefly was that performance-based specifications are going to be important
40:38 to spurring,
40:39 uh,
40:39 innovation and low low-impact concrete.
40:42 That is,
40:42 you know,
40:43 when we design concrete mixtures,
40:44 we're used to thinking about trade-offs between performance.
40:47 Performance and costs.
40:48 Now we need to also think about environmental impacts and so we need to ask people
40:53 to start measuring that and um reporting it and that will better allow us to sort of
40:58 try and optimize among all three of these to
41:00 create mixtures that really achieve those three objectives.
41:04 So just in,
41:04 in closing the recommendations that I have at least
41:07 for reducing uh the embodied uh impacts of,
41:10 of concrete,
41:11 um,
41:11 and cement,
41:12 you know,
41:12 it's really trying to address those barriers of risk and cost.
41:16 Um,
41:16 uh,
41:17 what we need,
41:17 uh,
41:18 is more just request of what is the environmental footprint of cement and concrete
41:23 that can allow us then to spur more
41:26 innovation in low-carbon cement and concrete mixtures,
41:29 uh,
41:29 in conjunction with more performance-based specifications.
41:32 Um,
41:33 you know,
41:33 thinking long-term,
41:34 we need to have more support in terms of,
41:37 uh,
41:38 uh,
41:38 development and deployment of carbon capture at
41:40 cement plants and other industrial sources,
41:43 um,
41:43 and for those that kind of deeper decarbonization
41:47 of low-carbon technologies for cement.
41:48 And concrete and aggregate production that use uh captured carbon,
41:52 we're also gonna need more uh support for that.
41:54 So,
41:55 so these top ones can help mitigate the risk a little bit,
41:58 I think that,
41:59 that people are concerned about trying something new
42:01 and these will help to mitigate some of the concerns around cost.
42:04 So,
42:05 um,
42:05 with that,
42:06 uh,
42:06 here's our,
42:07 our website and uh contact information if you have questions,
42:10 but now I'll be glad to participate in the,
42:12 the panel.
42:14 Great.
42:15 Thank you so much,
42:16 Jeremy.
42:16 This was a
42:17 very interesting presentation and I think,
42:19 um,
42:20 you know,
42:20 no doubt that there is a
42:23 lot of
42:23 good thinking that has gone into this
42:25 space already and there are emerging technologies.
42:28 There are also existing technologies.
42:30 But
42:31 together
42:32 they will help us transform the value chain and
42:35 really enable the circularity of the construction sector,
42:39 which is
42:40 clearly something that has been,
42:42 you know,
42:42 thought about for a long time,
42:43 but I think it's accelerating at the pace
42:46 that is very grateful to see,
42:47 frankly,
42:48 in the last couple of years and,
42:50 and of course you and
42:51 MIT sustainability lab has been,
42:53 you know,
42:54 at the forefront of that.
42:55 Um,
42:56 I would.
42:57 Turn to the panelists,
42:59 um,
42:59 and,
43:00 and building on the presentation that we just heard here.
43:03 And maybe ask Andrew a little bit to see,
43:07 you know,
43:08 how does the GCCA
43:10 take some of these concepts that uh Jeremy shared with us right now
43:15 and translate that into
43:17 an actionable sort of roadmap for the cement and concrete industry worldwide,
43:23 and what are some of the initiatives that uh you
43:25 and your members are undertaking to sort of build upon,
43:28 um,
43:29 some of the ideas that Jeremy shared and potentially others as well.
43:37 I don't know if we have
43:38 Andrew.
43:42 On here.
43:45 Uh,
43:45 thank you very much,
43:46 Robert.
43:47 And thank you for those,
43:49 uh,
43:49 those words,
43:50 Jeremy,
43:50 a great introduction to us.
43:51 Um,
43:52 just,
43:52 just,
43:52 just briefly,
43:53 the Global Cement and Concrete Association has been
43:56 in existence for,
43:58 uh,
43:58 3 years now.
43:59 It was formed,
44:00 uh,
44:00 by the major cement and concrete producers from all around the world,
44:04 got members,
44:05 uh,
44:05 from every continent.
44:06 Um,
44:07 that was one of the fundamental,
44:09 um,
44:09 uh,
44:10 things that the founder members wanted to achieve was this global representation.
44:15 Many of you will be familiar with,
44:16 uh,
44:17 local or regional cement and concrete organizations,
44:20 and we work very closely,
44:22 uh,
44:22 with those organizations.
44:24 And,
44:24 uh,
44:25 and our purpose
44:26 is to,
44:27 uh,
44:27 both support the industry
44:29 in their progress
44:31 to being more sustainable
44:33 and also
44:34 to,
44:34 uh,
44:35 enable and equip those who use the products
44:38 to
44:39 be more sustainable in how the products.
44:42 Are used.
44:43 We've,
44:43 we've heard already that,
44:44 the,
44:44 of the challenges that spent in concrete
44:47 industry have and,
44:47 and why it is the subject of this panel.
44:50 Um,
44:50 I guess I,
44:51 I would add
44:52 a,
44:52 a few things to that.
44:53 One is,
44:54 uh,
44:54 why are the emissions
44:55 7% of global emissions?
44:57 It's,
44:57 it's actually because it's the most widely used
45:00 material.
45:01 And why is it the most widely used material?
45:03 It's,
45:03 it's widely used because it's,
45:05 it's locally available.
45:07 It's uh manufactured from product,
45:09 from raw materials that are
45:11 um commonly available uh almost everywhere.
45:16 We've already heard from,
45:17 from Jeremy just how versatile it is in terms of mix,
45:21 um,
45:22 uh,
45:22 infinite mixes,
45:23 Jeremy said.
45:24 And in addition to that,
45:25 there's a whole range of different formats.
45:28 So we can think of a concrete paving slab,
45:30 a concrete masonry block,
45:33 we can think of a concrete bridge.
45:35 And we can think of a concrete skyscraper and,
45:37 and all those concretes are actually
45:39 versatile,
45:41 a,
45:41 a,
45:41 a result of the versatility of the mix,
45:43 but also
45:44 a result of the versatility in the form.
45:46 So it can be cast
45:48 in the factory,
45:48 it can be cast on site,
45:49 it can be cast
45:51 in different shapes.
45:52 It can be
45:52 reinforced,
45:53 it can be pre-stressed,
45:55 and that versatility in mix,
45:57 the versatility in form.
46:00 Mean that it's very suitable to be used
46:02 widely.
46:03 And
46:03 in addition to that,
46:05 in addition to that,
46:06 it's got a range of benefits that some of which we just take for granted,
46:09 you know,
46:09 it's very hard,
46:10 it's durable.
46:12 It's strong,
46:14 it's flood resilient.
46:15 If you want to build a safe part of your house to protect you from hurricanes.
46:20 Concrete is the way to go.
46:22 Um,
46:23 It's fire resistant.
46:26 So with all these performance benefits
46:29 in the hands of designers,
46:31 they can use the material with the versatility as well,
46:35 in a really efficient way,
46:36 and I know that this first panel is concentrating on the production side,
46:39 and I'll move on to that in a second,
46:41 but in terms of the use of the material,
46:44 And it's already been alluded to by uh with,
46:47 with Jeremy,
46:47 we're talking about um environmental considerations need to
46:51 come into the thinking of the designer.
46:53 Up until now,
46:53 it's,
46:54 it's performance,
46:55 it's cost,
46:55 in terms of the construction,
46:57 the design side,
46:58 it's also speed of construction because that's cost.
47:02 Many of the design solutions that you and I
47:04 will see today and tomorrow in concrete.
47:08 Are driven by speed of construction and cost,
47:11 they're not yet driven
47:13 by environmental considerations,
47:15 considerations of circularity,
47:16 which Carol has already
47:18 introduced to us,
47:19 considerations of
47:20 material efficiency.
47:22 Because
47:23 of the versatility of concrete.
47:25 It is ideally placed to respond to that additional design constraint
47:30 that we should all be placing
47:32 on our
47:33 engineers and our architects
47:35 when they are designing new projects.
47:38 So
47:38 it's a material that's got fantastic scope to be used in a really sustainable way.
47:43 But we recognize as an industry that we have a challenge
47:46 in the way we produce that.
47:48 Now we're not starting from a standing start here.
47:50 Since 1990,
47:51 there's been almost a 20% reduction in CO2 emissions.
47:55 The increased alternative fuels,
47:57 that was one of the levers that Jeremy,
47:59 Jeremy made mention of.
48:00 So alternative fuels,
48:01 so waste products
48:03 from other industries,
48:04 so the,
48:04 the cement and concrete industry enables
48:06 other industries
48:08 to address their circularity.
48:10 We know in the waste hierarchy,
48:11 we wanna
48:12 reuse
48:13 at its highest level as much as possible,
48:16 and we know at the bottom of the hierarchy would be landfill,
48:19 and just above that would be an incineration.
48:23 Burning waste products from other industries in
48:25 cement kilns is above that in co-processing.
48:28 And that co-processing is because it's 100% energy recovery and 100%
48:33 raw material recovery as well.
48:35 And so products like tires,
48:37 waste oil,
48:39 Solvents which,
48:40 you know,
48:41 are a problem otherwise for society can be burnt in
48:44 cement kilns,
48:45 um,
48:46 in a,
48:46 in a really efficient circular economy way.
48:51 So I'll just come onto the GCA and some initiatives.
48:53 Members of GCA commit 40% of the of the industry uh globally are members of GCA.
48:58 They commit to a sustainability charter.
49:00 They've committed to a climate ambition statement
49:02 for zero carbon concrete by 2050,
49:05 and we're delivering a roadmap this year
49:07 to show how we're going to
49:08 deliver that.
49:10 We've had reference to the EPD tool.
49:12 I know Robert,
49:12 EPD tool,
49:13 GCA's produced an EPD tool
49:15 cos measurement of products is important
49:17 and that's available globally as well,
49:18 and we would hope that
49:20 World Bank projects
49:21 would be requiring those performance measures
49:24 and a global EPD tool will be available for that,
49:27 as is
49:28 a responsible sourcing tool because we're not just talking carbon,
49:31 responsible sourcing of products as well.
49:33 So you can see a whole range of things that GCCA are doing.
49:36 Yeah,
49:37 I think that's a very interesting perspective and no doubt the,
49:40 the Global Industry Association has an important role in,
49:43 in,
49:43 uh,
49:44 disseminating both the best practices that are available and
49:48 existing and,
49:48 and in the future as well.
49:50 Now,
49:51 uh,
49:51 I want to turn a little bit to Eric,
49:53 our,
49:54 uh,
49:55 3 panelist here,
49:57 and,
49:58 uh,
49:58 take it from,
49:59 let's say the,
50:00 the research space,
50:02 the industry space into the practitioners and hear a little bit about how
50:07 some of these ambitions,
50:08 which ultimately circularity also is one of large aspect is to reduce.
50:14 Um,
50:15 the material needed in the first place.
50:16 It's not only to reduce the emissions,
50:18 um,
50:18 and so that's not a component.
50:21 So Eric,
50:21 maybe tell us a little bit how Vica is,
50:24 is,
50:24 uh,
50:25 thinking about the profitability versus the
50:27 circularity objectives and how you're incorporating that into your business,
50:31 uh,
50:31 today.
50:32 So if you can take
50:33 2 minutes or so to kind of give us a highlight of,
50:36 of the work that you're doing,
50:37 it would be great.
50:38 Yeah.
50:39 OK,
50:40 uh,
50:40 so good morning and good afternoon to everyone.
50:43 Uh,
50:43 so first of all,
50:44 you know,
50:44 VCA is
50:47 today an international company acting in cement,
50:49 concrete,
50:50 and aggregate,
50:51 uh,
50:51 existing for more than 150 years and just for the history,
50:55 Louis Vitard is the inventor of the cement in 1817,
51:00 so more than 200 years ago,
51:02 and,
51:03 but we are from there looking to the future,
51:06 not to the past.
51:08 So thanks to the innovation.
51:12 So VA is also a member of the GCCA and Libandi,
51:16 and
51:17 So Vita is a company which is family controlled,
51:21 means that
51:23 when the group is committing
51:26 to a trajectory,
51:27 to
51:28 to a target by 2030 or 2050,
51:33 for a family company,
51:35 commitment means
51:37 something.
51:38 Means that
51:40 the children and
51:42 the children will be there,
51:44 of course,
51:44 to
51:45 control the company and that means that the people who are in charge now
51:50 have to commit
51:52 for their children,
51:53 so it means it means something.
51:55 Uh,
51:55 so the,
51:56 uh,
51:57 a lot of things have been,
51:58 uh,
51:59 said already and thanks to that because uh the
52:01 presentations and previous,
52:03 uh,
52:04 uh,
52:05 discussions could,
52:06 uh,
52:07 I hope,
52:07 uh,
52:08 give to,
52:08 uh,
52:09 the,
52:09 the people who are following this,
52:11 uh.
52:12 will be now a lot of information,
52:14 but as a cement producer and concrete producer,
52:18 it's clear that we are on the field,
52:19 we are real practices,
52:21 and so we are facing now
52:23 these big questions
52:25 how can we
52:26 address both profitability
52:28 and the constraints related to the environmental issues that we are all facing.
52:35 This is a key,
52:35 it's really a key question.
52:38 So it's clear that we are working on solutions that can
52:43 minimize the use of the concrete.
52:46 So that means that we can still have profitability if we are giving more value
52:51 to the slower volume of concrete and cement.
52:56 We can do that thanks to the circular economy,
53:00 so it has been mentioned already that we are using a lot of alternative fuels,
53:05 and this is something which is bringing value to
53:08 the cement product.
53:11 We are also working on the recycling of the concrete.
53:16 In different ways
53:18 within
53:19 the raw materials
53:20 entering into the kin.
53:23 Or raw as a raw material entering into the cement
53:27 or into the binder as a cement additive,
53:30 but also as a recarbonated or not recarbonated aggregate,
53:34 recycled aggregate into the concrete.
53:37 So
53:39 sorry to interrupt there.
53:40 Maybe highlight a little bit
53:41 the how you're working with governments and and policymakers
53:46 to enable that circularity because I think that's one
53:48 of the big challenges we're facing as an industry.
53:51 There,
53:52 there are,
53:52 uh,
53:53 it's important first in regard to the,
53:55 um,
53:55 there are several aspects for the,
53:57 uh,
53:57 in regard to alternative fuels.
53:59 So here we need to have a strong regulation in,
54:02 uh,
54:03 against the landfilling of the waste.
54:06 And thanks we already have this type of regulation
54:09 in a lot of places around the world,
54:11 but not everywhere,
54:13 because when you have such constraint,
54:14 it's clear that the
54:16 producer of the waste has to find other solutions and then the cement plants
54:21 are part of those solutions.
54:23 So this is a stronger
54:25 thing that we are looking from the policymakers.
54:28 Then in regard to the recycled aggregate.
54:33 Today the aggregate is at
54:35 a very low cost in fact to produce,
54:38 to extract,
54:39 and then it has a very low value on the market.
54:41 So it is necessary
54:42 if we want to
54:45 bypass
54:46 the flow of the recycled aggregate to recarbonize
54:49 them or to prepare them in order to improve
54:53 their strength and their quality to be reused as it is into the concrete.
54:59 To with the same or similar performances as
55:03 natural aggregate.
55:04 Then
55:05 someone has to pay for this bypass,
55:08 let's say,
55:09 because we have to transport it,
55:10 we have to prepare it,
55:11 and so here
55:13 again we have to have some strong regulations or incentives from the policymakers
55:19 and from the public command also
55:23 to
55:24 to ease this,
55:26 let's say bypass and to pay for it.
55:28 And at the end,
55:29 the end I would say
55:30 that
55:31 the clients
55:32 will have to pay somewhere also.
55:34 Sure,
55:35 and,
55:35 and on that note,
55:36 also,
55:37 VCAT has to
55:38 invest and make sure,
55:40 given that it has shareholders,
55:41 to
55:42 generate a positive shareholder value uh as a,
55:45 as a part of this entire equation.
55:48 If you can just take
55:49 15 seconds and,
55:50 and explain what really sort of drove you towards the circular
55:54 model and how did you sell that to the board of the company.
55:58 It's very easy.
55:59 It's very easy to sell it to the board because from the family,
56:03 they are already pushing
56:05 into that direction because they are thinking about their own children.
56:09 So this is very easy.
56:10 Now let's speak about the
56:12 the shareholders,
56:13 the elders,
56:15 because we are a listed company and it's clear that
56:19 they are coming with some questions and some
56:21 Indicators like
56:23 what you look at your turnover of CO2 divided by your turnover.
56:29 It's not good compared to this one or this one.
56:32 OK,
56:33 but in fact we are,
56:34 it's not,
56:35 we are not looking to satisfy,
56:37 for example,
56:38 this only indicator
56:40 because it would mean that we would
56:42 go back or
56:44 get out of the cement business and leave it to someone else
56:48 when in fact it is the responsibility of someone
56:51 to solve this situation
56:53 and so we are working with shareholders that are sharing also this
56:58 approach.
56:59 And uh when we are able to explain them clearly our,
57:03 uh,
57:03 let's say commitments,
57:05 strategy,
57:06 and so on,
57:07 they,
57:07 they are happy to,
57:08 to join us.
57:09 OK,
57:09 great,
57:09 thank you.
57:10 That's,
57:11 that's,
57:11 uh,
57:11 I think a very interesting perspective and,
57:13 and no doubt it,
57:14 it's great to work with,
57:16 of course,
57:16 shareholders and a board that understands,
57:19 uh,
57:19 the,
57:19 the vision.
57:20 And,
57:21 and sort of coming back to that a little bit and you mentioned the
57:24 CO2 metrics and maybe I'll turn it back to Jeremy now.
57:28 And if you can tell us a little bit just briefly around that,
57:32 how do we measure all this?
57:33 How do we make sure that we actually know
57:35 where we are today,
57:36 where we've been,
57:37 and,
57:37 and we're going forward because as,
57:39 as,
57:39 uh,
57:40 as people have said,
57:41 what you can't measure doesn't change,
57:42 right?
57:43 So tell us just briefly about that.
57:46 Yeah,
57:47 there's a lot of uh existing approaches to measure
57:49 the environmental impact of cement and concrete production and
57:53 Andrew mentioned uh one approach is he said the GCCA has a tool that can be used,
57:58 um,
57:59 and then what comes out of them are
58:00 called these environmental product declarations or EPDs,
58:04 and that's sort of like your nutrition label on food.
58:07 This is your environmental impact label for your,
58:10 uh,
58:10 for your cement and concrete.
58:12 And the great thing is,
58:13 um,
58:13 I think just engaging with folks to ask them
58:15 to start measuring that causes them to wonder,
58:17 well,
58:18 why is my footprint that way?
58:20 Um,
58:20 and that's a great way to do it.
58:21 It's just to engage with those EPDs and the good thing is those are available,
58:25 you know,
58:25 in many places all over the world.
58:28 Great.
58:28 Thank you.
58:29 And that's obviously an important role also of the industry association,
58:33 so maybe turn,
58:34 turn over.
58:34 I mean,
58:34 we can,
58:35 we can have this uh great conversation for days here,
58:37 but,
58:38 but given our time constraint,
58:40 um,
58:41 Andrew,
58:42 if you can tell us just a little bit,
58:43 uh,
58:44 you know,
58:44 briefly about the,
58:46 the ability to translate these two,
58:49 these concepts that we discussed to emerging economists,
58:52 developing economies,
58:53 and within that context,
58:55 what's the role of the World Bank?
58:58 Yeah,
58:59 thank you.
58:59 So we're currently in the process of,
59:00 uh,
59:01 of doing a,
59:01 a roadmap to 2050 concrete,
59:03 and we've been talking to lots of countries around the world.
59:07 Um,
59:07 and I won't name the countries,
59:08 but I'll just give a couple of examples.
59:10 So,
59:10 so one example was,
59:11 uh,
59:12 uh,
59:12 a major Southeastern
59:13 Asian country,
59:14 and,
59:15 and their challenge was
59:16 that,
59:17 um,
59:17 the state-owned ACTA
59:20 owned the majority of cement production.
59:23 And global players wanted to do the right thing.
59:25 All these levers that Jeremy's explained.
59:28 But it,
59:29 it,
59:29 they just couldn't compete in that field against a state-owned actor
59:33 that didn't want to move.
59:34 In our conversations with them,
59:36 we were saying,
59:36 well,
59:36 actually,
59:37 let's make projections of what can be achieved
59:39 on the assumption that Paris Agreement and international diplomacy
59:43 will make that country's government and hence that country-owned
59:47 cement producer do the right thing.
59:50 But clearly that's an assumption.
59:52 So that is something as a global
59:54 association,
59:55 we will be lobbying to try and seek to
59:57 have the support of national governments in that area.
1:00:01 And then,
1:00:02 so is this an opportunity for you to collaborate with the World Bank?
1:00:06 Like how does the World Bank get involved in,
1:00:08 in,
1:00:08 or I mean they're involved already,
1:00:09 but how can
1:00:11 we build stronger connections and bridges to jointly
1:00:15 work towards our common goal?
1:00:16 Absolutely.
1:00:17 So,
1:00:17 so that's one example,
1:00:18 very similar in a different country where it wasn't state-owned actors,
1:00:22 but it was a majority of supply was by lots of local
1:00:25 private companies.
1:00:27 And that potentially is where World Bank could come in,
1:00:29 funding those
1:00:31 independent
1:00:32 private producers
1:00:33 who do not have a global sustainability agenda,
1:00:36 but they need to be brought up to what best in class looks like.
1:00:40 So that's on the,
1:00:41 that's on the production side,
1:00:42 and I think World Bank's got a place to play there in
1:00:45 investing in production.
1:00:47 In the consumption side,
1:00:49 we've heard Jeremy made reference to,
1:00:50 um,
1:00:51 risk,
1:00:52 people concerned about risk on something.
1:00:53 So,
1:00:54 so use of waste materials from other industries.
1:00:57 We had the term SEMs,
1:01:00 so secondary cementitious or fly in GDPS
1:01:02 or Portland limestones meant
1:01:04 absolutely
1:01:05 standard,
1:01:07 no-risk
1:01:08 technologies that are utilized for decades in many countries,
1:01:12 still not being exploited
1:01:14 on the ground
1:01:15 in,
1:01:16 on major projects.
1:01:17 So World Bank funding of projects
1:01:19 should look at specification there.
1:01:20 So we've got government specifications which are denying.
1:01:24 Opportunities for
1:01:25 big tick in the box circular economy with very little risk
1:01:28 and World Bank funding could help there.
1:01:30 So a lot of,
1:01:31 a lot of policy work that can be,
1:01:33 be done there.
1:01:33 And again this is a great conversation,
1:01:35 would love to hear more,
1:01:36 but
1:01:36 you know,
1:01:37 just to keep things,
1:01:38 uh,
1:01:38 a little bit on track,
1:01:39 I'm going to steal one minute.
1:01:41 So Eric,
1:01:42 uh,
1:01:42 please do me proud here and,
1:01:43 and let's stay within the minute.
1:01:45 Um,
1:01:46 VCAT is very involved in developing countries,
1:01:49 uh,
1:01:50 and.
1:01:51 A lot of these initiatives that we discussed are,
1:01:53 are frankly being worked on
1:01:55 sort of in,
1:01:56 in,
1:01:57 in sort of the Western developed world
1:01:59 already
1:02:00 developed,
1:02:00 uh,
1:02:01 can you give us just like a quick example or two
1:02:04 of work that you're doing in some of your operations in,
1:02:07 in Africa or,
1:02:08 or elsewhere,
1:02:09 uh,
1:02:09 to help us just translate this into
1:02:12 reality in the developing economies.
1:02:14 It's not just something we do in Europe or US.
1:02:17 Yeah,
1:02:17 OK,
1:02:18 so in,
1:02:19 in West Africa we have a very big plant over there in Senegal
1:02:23 and so this is
1:02:25 one place
1:02:27 out of the others where we have the lowest rate of clinker content,
1:02:32 the clinker meaning,
1:02:33 you know,
1:02:33 the product coming out of the kiln.
1:02:35 So this is a reference for Europe.
1:02:38 And USA
1:02:39 because it means that in Africa we can make nice buildings,
1:02:42 nice bridges with this type of concrete
1:02:45 with low content,
1:02:46 and this is a nice demonstration that it is possible.
1:02:49 And another example is in Brazil.
1:02:51 In Brazil we are producing calcine clay that has been mentioned by Jeremy earlier,
1:02:57 and we are discovering that in Europe now.
1:03:00 So we are for sure in Europe,
1:03:02 in Western countries,
1:03:03 developing
1:03:05 new technologies,
1:03:06 non-mature technologies like carbon capture and so on.
1:03:08 We're not develop on that,
1:03:09 but we are deeply involved.
1:03:11 This is for after 2030,
1:03:13 let's say,
1:03:13 but today
1:03:14 there are a lot of
1:03:16 experiences
1:03:17 in the south and in the north that we can share in order to improve
1:03:21 all
1:03:22 the north and south together.
1:03:24 It's brilliant.
1:03:25 It's great to hear.
1:03:25 And,
1:03:26 and I think it's a very encouraging
1:03:28 example that you mentioned about Senegal sort of being the,
1:03:31 the,
1:03:31 the leader within the group and,
1:03:32 and driving that sometimes it's,
1:03:34 it's easy to start from a,
1:03:35 from a younger basis it is to drive that,
1:03:38 that,
1:03:38 uh,
1:03:39 development and,
1:03:40 and um advance towards our goals.
1:03:42 And I think that that's,
1:03:43 that's something that uh we'll,
1:03:44 we'll leave off with for this panel,
1:03:47 uh,
1:03:47 keeping that in mind that uh
1:03:49 it's not only taking
1:03:51 the technology from the north and,
1:03:52 and moving it to the south as it were in the,
1:03:54 in the traditional paradigm,
1:03:56 it's also learning across the different uh economies
1:03:59 and there can be opportunities to go both ways and I think that's,
1:04:02 that's a great,
1:04:03 uh,
1:04:04 great,
1:04:04 uh,
1:04:04 takeaway from this obviously.
1:04:07 Now,
1:04:07 uh,
1:04:07 on that note,
1:04:08 I thank the,
1:04:09 the panelists for the contribution and discussion.
1:04:12 Um,
1:04:13 amazing conversation and,
1:04:14 and as I said,
1:04:14 we can continue this for days,
1:04:16 if not
1:04:16 years of this conversation,
1:04:18 but in the interest of time.
1:04:20 Uh,
1:04:20 I'll turn it back over to
1:04:23 Um,
1:04:24 the,
1:04:25 the,
1:04:25 uh,
1:04:26 the rest of the,
1:04:26 the second panel.
1:04:28 So we will probably reconvene a bit later today
1:04:31 and maybe there's some additional questions we'll pick up,
1:04:33 but thanks very much again for,
1:04:35 for your contribution to this webinar.
1:04:40 Thank you.
1:04:40 Really interesting discussion and
1:04:43 excellent,
1:04:43 uh,
1:04:43 moderation.
1:04:44 Thank you,
1:04:45 Robert,
1:04:45 and
1:04:46 all the panelists for,
1:04:47 for leading us to this exciting and lively discussion.
1:04:51 I'd like to get right into the second panel.
1:04:55 Um,
1:04:58 make sure.
1:05:01 That,
1:05:02 um,
1:05:03 This time,
1:05:04 the panel will be moderated by Felix Heisel.
1:05:07 Felix is the assistant professor and director at the Circular Construction Lab,
1:05:12 Cornell University.
1:05:14 He's an architect himself,
1:05:16 an academic working towards a systematic uh redesign of the built environment.
1:05:21 As a material depot
1:05:22 of endless use and reconfiguration.
1:05:25 He's also a partner at
1:05:27 2HS Architects
1:05:29 and Engineers in,
1:05:30 in Germany,
1:05:31 an office specialized in the development of circular prototypologies.
1:05:36 He is a leading thinker in circular construction topic
1:05:40 and has received
1:05:41 various awards for his work and published numerous books and articles on the topic.
1:05:46 Uh,
1:05:47 including urban mining and circular construction,
1:05:50 cultivated building materials,
1:05:51 and building from waste.
1:05:53 Our panelist Salome Hayat is the deputy Program Manager of circular economy
1:05:58 of the city of Amsterdam,
1:06:00 the,
1:06:00 the Netherlands.
1:06:01 Salome is an industrial design engineer with uh over
1:06:05 a decade of experience in the built environment.
1:06:08 She has worked on various design projects,
1:06:10 the impact of digital fabrication technologies,
1:06:13 integrated urban development,
1:06:15 and the role of engineer in the transition to the circular economy.
1:06:18 As the Deputy Program Manager,
1:06:20 Circular Economy of the City of Amsterdam,
1:06:22 she has delivered a strategy for
1:06:25 Circular Amsterdam 2020 to 2025 and a circular innovation program,
1:06:30 which is now being executed.
1:06:32 She has a special interest in
1:06:34 digital solutions that will facilitate the transition
1:06:37 to circular economy in the construction sector.
1:06:40 Uh,
1:06:41 Wilson Liu is a professor in the Department of
1:06:43 Real Estate and Construction of the Faculty of Architecture,
1:06:47 the University of Hong Kong.
1:06:49 His research interests focused on waste management,
1:06:51 circular economy,
1:06:52 corporate social responsibility,
1:06:54 and green technologies in the context of built environment.
1:06:58 He's leading to Uh,
1:06:59 strategic,
1:07:00 uh,
1:07:00 public policy research
1:07:02 to develop a waste trade organization in the Greater
1:07:05 Bay Area,
1:07:06 including Hong Kong,
1:07:07 Macau,
1:07:08 Guangzhou,
1:07:09 Shenzhen,
1:07:10 and various regions in China.
1:07:12 Finally,
1:07:13 Monika Mosker is the head of cities at the Danish Design Center.
1:07:18 Uh,
1:07:19 Monica is dedicated to developing innovative programs
1:07:22 and driving missions and transformation in cities.
1:07:25 Monica works in the intersection of design,
1:07:28 urban innovation,
1:07:29 and sustainable business development.
1:07:32 She leads innovation processes across public and private sector
1:07:35 to facilitate co-creation
1:07:37 and cross-section.
1:07:38 Sectoral partnerships.
1:07:40 Her working includes topics such as urban technologies and digital innovation,
1:07:45 circular construction,
1:07:46 circular cities and communities,
1:07:48 and sustainable business models.
1:07:50 I'm sure we'll hear much more about all these interesting projects and research
1:07:55 that these panelists are working on during our panel discussion.
1:08:03 Um,
1:08:04 Felix,
1:08:04 uh,
1:08:05 floor is now yours.
1:08:06 Thank you very much.
1:08:07 Thank you for inviting me to,
1:08:09 to moderate this wonderful session today.
1:08:11 Um,
1:08:12 thank you,
1:08:12 Nayo.
1:08:12 Thank you to the World Bank.
1:08:14 Um,
1:08:15 and the,
1:08:16 uh,
1:08:17 circular Construction lab at,
1:08:18 at Cornell University,
1:08:19 we deal with,
1:08:20 um,
1:08:21 three questions.
1:08:22 How can we design buildings differently so that they
1:08:26 Um,
1:08:26 uh,
1:08:27 a material depot for the future.
1:08:28 How can we activate all those materials that are out there already
1:08:32 today as an urban mine,
1:08:34 and then,
1:08:35 how can we shift the mindset?
1:08:36 How can we invest or
1:08:39 build differently?
1:08:40 How can we shift the business models,
1:08:42 um,
1:08:43 to enable this
1:08:44 apart from only looking at embodied carbon,
1:08:47 right?
1:08:47 What's,
1:08:47 what's the,
1:08:48 what's the bigger picture?
1:08:49 Um,
1:08:50 and so,
1:08:51 I'm,
1:08:51 I'm extremely happy to talk about,
1:08:53 um,
1:08:54 an,
1:08:54 a panel today named Enabling and creating Demand for the circular construction
1:09:00 and
1:09:01 discuss with my
1:09:02 fellow panelists here,
1:09:04 um,
1:09:05 what are the enabling conditions
1:09:07 for such a transition to the circular economy.
1:09:11 Um,
1:09:11 what could be technical measures,
1:09:13 right,
1:09:14 that's,
1:09:14 that support this transition?
1:09:16 Um,
1:09:17 examples could be designed for disassembly,
1:09:19 modular construction,
1:09:21 um,
1:09:21 activating waste streams as a resource,
1:09:25 um,
1:09:26 or the importance of documentation.
1:09:28 We need to know what is out there,
1:09:30 what are the material flows,
1:09:31 um,
1:09:32 to close the gap between demand and supply.
1:09:36 Um,
1:09:36 and I think in all of this,
1:09:38 it is extremely important to acknowledge that,
1:09:41 of course,
1:09:41 the built environment has a,
1:09:42 has a kind of special setting due to the amount of
1:09:47 important stakeholders that are part of this process.
1:09:50 Um,
1:09:51 You can name architects,
1:09:52 designers,
1:09:53 engineers,
1:09:53 constructors,
1:09:54 developers,
1:09:55 owners,
1:09:55 users,
1:09:56 um,
1:09:57 authorities,
1:09:58 manufacturers,
1:10:00 uh,
1:10:00 the list keeps going,
1:10:01 right?
1:10:01 And,
1:10:02 and
1:10:03 everyone,
1:10:03 um,
1:10:04 has
1:10:05 an important role to play in this.
1:10:07 And so cross-sector partnership,
1:10:09 um,
1:10:10 is an essential component to scaling
1:10:14 the circular.
1:10:15 Economy in the construction industry.
1:10:18 Um,
1:10:19 and with that,
1:10:19 I wanna jump directly into the conversation,
1:10:23 um,
1:10:24 and talk about this
1:10:25 value chain and what
1:10:27 actions and measures can be implemented
1:10:30 to,
1:10:31 to overcome coordination challenges.
1:10:34 Um,
1:10:35 Salome,
1:10:36 maybe the first question
1:10:38 I'll direct to you.
1:10:40 Um,
1:10:41 and talk about the city of Amsterdam
1:10:43 that has made
1:10:44 fantastic progress in all of these,
1:10:47 uh,
1:10:47 in,
1:10:48 in all of these,
1:10:48 um,
1:10:49 steps,
1:10:50 and,
1:10:50 and how and why,
1:10:52 uh,
1:10:52 does,
1:10:53 does the city of Amsterdam
1:10:55 see this,
1:10:56 uh,
1:10:56 construction sector as a potential for the circular
1:10:59 economy?
1:11:00 Uh,
1:11:00 what are the goals and targets of this,
1:11:03 um,
1:11:04 of,
1:11:04 of government-specific policies here?
1:11:07 Um,
1:11:08 and,
1:11:08 and what do you see as the most promising policies in all of that,
1:11:12 uh,
1:11:12 to create a demand for circular construction
1:11:16 in the Netherlands and Amsterdam?
1:11:20 Thanks,
1:11:20 Felix.
1:11:21 Those are
1:11:22 quite a number of questions.
1:11:25 I'll just get started and please stop me when I take too long or sort of drift off.
1:11:30 Uh,
1:11:30 well,
1:11:30 to start with the first question,
1:11:32 uh,
1:11:32 obviously,
1:11:33 as we heard from the first panel as well,
1:11:35 the,
1:11:36 uh,
1:11:36 construction sector has a very big impact on the,
1:11:39 the environment.
1:11:41 Um,
1:11:41 and I would like to state immediately that I do not agree with all the sustainable
1:11:46 solutions presented in the previous challenge,
1:11:48 uh,
1:11:48 the previous panel,
1:11:49 but maybe we'll get back to that later.
1:11:51 Uh,
1:11:52 but I do agree that it is complex
1:11:54 and that we need uh solutions on all different levels.
1:11:57 We need material solutions,
1:11:59 product solutions
1:12:00 on a building level and on the wider city scale.
1:12:04 Um,
1:12:05 but I think that in itself also provides potential.
1:12:09 The fact that the building sector is so
1:12:12 broad,
1:12:12 so big,
1:12:13 so diverse,
1:12:15 um,
1:12:15 and literally all around us also provides room
1:12:20 to,
1:12:20 um,
1:12:21 uh,
1:12:22 test,
1:12:22 to pilot,
1:12:23 to exchange,
1:12:24 to innovate.
1:12:25 So it's on the one hand super complex,
1:12:27 but I think this complexity also
1:12:30 creates room for innovation and,
1:12:32 and better solutions because that's what we need.
1:12:35 Um,
1:12:36 one more thing I would like to add is that the built environment also provides
1:12:41 potentially at least the opportunity for
1:12:42 other sectors to become more sustainable.
1:12:46 So there's
1:12:47 a lot happening in the built environment,
1:12:49 whether it's related to logistics or to food or to
1:12:53 retail.
1:12:54 Everything happens here.
1:12:56 I live in Amsterdam,
1:12:57 so I stay here.
1:12:58 So,
1:12:59 also enabling sustainability in other sectors that
1:13:02 that could be something that the built environment
1:13:04 and the,
1:13:04 the design that's,
1:13:06 that's the basis for the built environment
1:13:08 um has an impact on.
1:13:10 So many different
1:13:12 um um
1:13:14 skills,
1:13:14 it's a complex matrix,
1:13:15 but I see a lot of potential.
1:13:17 So what we try to do in Amsterdam,
1:13:19 we have uh
1:13:20 the built environment is one of the pillars
1:13:22 of our uh circular strategy for 2025.
1:13:25 Uh,
1:13:26 this strategy works towards our intermediate goal of 2030,
1:13:30 um,
1:13:30 which we hope to use,
1:13:32 um,
1:13:33 50% less primary materials
1:13:36 in the built environment,
1:13:38 but also in the food sector and the consumer goods sector,
1:13:41 etc.
1:13:43 And for um this intermediate goal for 2025,
1:13:47 we have three ambitions,
1:13:48 and the three ambitions focus on
1:13:50 uh urban design,
1:13:52 and we would like to base all of the new urban design uh activities uh as of next year on
1:13:58 circular criteria.
1:14:00 Um,
1:14:01 similar for the,
1:14:03 the buildings,
1:14:03 the elements in the built environment as of 2023,
1:14:06 we would like to base them on circular criteria as well.
1:14:09 Now you might wonder what are those?
1:14:11 We're still figuring that out.
1:14:13 So on a,
1:14:13 on a building,
1:14:15 uh,
1:14:15 scale,
1:14:16 you can think of
1:14:17 building in wood or
1:14:20 Future-proof or
1:14:21 um um make sure it's demountable.
1:14:24 Uh,
1:14:25 there are many different solutions.
1:14:27 In the wider
1:14:28 scale,
1:14:29 the bigger scale,
1:14:29 urban development,
1:14:31 there are also many potential um
1:14:33 uh solutions on material levels,
1:14:35 but we also look at
1:14:36 how the built environment is designed.
1:14:39 Uh,
1:14:39 to ensure,
1:14:41 uh,
1:14:41 a positive impact on sustainability in the,
1:14:44 in the broader sense.
1:14:46 Maybe it's interesting to also mention that we work within the donut.
1:14:50 So the doughnut economy,
1:14:51 hopefully,
1:14:51 it's,
1:14:51 uh,
1:14:52 it's well known by,
1:14:53 by most of you.
1:14:54 It's a Kate Rayward model that tried to connect,
1:14:57 um,
1:14:58 Uh,
1:14:58 economic ecological solutions to social solutions and challenges.
1:15:03 So,
1:15:04 for every,
1:15:05 um,
1:15:05 uh,
1:15:05 sustainable solution
1:15:07 we try to come up with,
1:15:08 we always think about what is the social aspect and can we make
1:15:12 a combination?
1:15:12 Can we make the solution even richer
1:15:15 by not just making it feasible and sustainable,
1:15:17 but also looking at the,
1:15:19 the social impact that it has.
1:15:21 And maybe that also relates to our third
1:15:23 ambition that really focuses on the existing city,
1:15:26 because in,
1:15:27 in many countries,
1:15:28 there's still a lot to be built,
1:15:29 but in most Western countries,
1:15:31 that percentage is relatively low compared to what's already there.
1:15:35 But the existing city also needs,
1:15:37 needs renovation,
1:15:38 needs to be refurbished,
1:15:40 for example,
1:15:40 to be fitting for the energy transition because
1:15:43 a lot of our houses and our buildings are leaking warmth and energy.
1:15:47 So how can we upgrade them?
1:15:49 In a circular way to make sure that they're
1:15:52 also futureproof and comfortable to live in as well.
1:15:56 I think you also asked me
1:15:58 about um I was gonna follow up on,
1:16:01 on
1:16:02 how would you or are any of these strategies,
1:16:04 um,
1:16:05 can you implement them in,
1:16:06 in developing context,
1:16:08 right?
1:16:08 Amsterdam is 11 specific case,
1:16:11 um,
1:16:11 so how do you transition that?
1:16:15 How to apply those in developing countries.
1:16:17 What,
1:16:17 what are your thoughts about that?
1:16:20 Yeah,
1:16:21 absolutely,
1:16:22 um,
1:16:23 well,
1:16:25 I don't think that the circular transition is a
1:16:28 technological transition.
1:16:30 Um,
1:16:31 I think many solutions we're looking at
1:16:34 Uh,
1:16:35 we,
1:16:35 we actually used to,
1:16:37 uh,
1:16:37 apply them already.
1:16:38 If you look back
1:16:39 50 or 100 years,
1:16:40 how we dealt with materials,
1:16:42 our products,
1:16:43 the world around us,
1:16:45 it was in many ways,
1:16:46 way more circular and way more sustainable than we are now.
1:16:50 So it's not just
1:16:51 innovation and not just,
1:16:53 uh,
1:16:54 futuristic technologies that we use.
1:16:56 They could be
1:16:57 part of the solution.
1:16:59 But definitely,
1:17:00 um,
1:17:00 what,
1:17:01 for example,
1:17:01 just looking at what we already have,
1:17:04 local building materials,
1:17:05 local
1:17:07 building technologies that are sometimes super,
1:17:10 super innovative.
1:17:11 Now we can let,
1:17:12 let,
1:17:12 let's say for Western
1:17:14 buildings,
1:17:15 you,
1:17:15 uh,
1:17:15 learn a lot from,
1:17:17 um,
1:17:18 but also I believe in collaboration.
1:17:20 If we try to move towards our goals,
1:17:22 our sustainable goals in a collaborative way,
1:17:25 there is really much to gain.
1:17:28 Um,
1:17:29 um,
1:17:30 and just be smart with what you have.
1:17:32 I think one of the
1:17:33 great challenges for our architects and our designers is
1:17:37 how can we design with what we have?
1:17:39 And,
1:17:40 uh,
1:17:40 as already mentioned in the introduction,
1:17:41 I'm a
1:17:42 big fan of,
1:17:43 uh,
1:17:44 uh,
1:17:45 digits.
1:17:45 So facilitating
1:17:47 uh tools or solutions
1:17:49 that can really help us to identify
1:17:52 which materials,
1:17:53 which secondary products are already available,
1:17:56 and
1:17:56 I can use in my new building or whatever that I'm gonna build.
1:18:00 If we can
1:18:02 support and facilitate to close the loop in that way.
1:18:05 I think,
1:18:05 um,
1:18:06 that could have a very big impact as well.
1:18:08 So
1:18:09 it's not,
1:18:10 uh,
1:18:11 difficult necessarily,
1:18:12 it's not expensive necessarily,
1:18:14 but it does require a new way of collaborating and looking at how and what we design.
1:18:20 I'm,
1:18:21 I'm looking forward to talking about these
1:18:23 platforms with you in the next round.
1:18:25 I wanna go to,
1:18:26 to Wilson,
1:18:27 um,
1:18:28 and talk about the Chinese context.
1:18:31 Um,
1:18:31 maybe,
1:18:32 can you briefly tell us about the key policies,
1:18:35 um,
1:18:35 that were derived in,
1:18:37 in respect to circular construction in China,
1:18:40 um,
1:18:40 and,
1:18:41 and what lessons can we derive from those
1:18:44 for China,
1:18:44 but of course,
1:18:45 also for,
1:18:46 for developing countries,
1:18:47 um,
1:18:48 And
1:18:49 maybe something that is,
1:18:51 that could be interesting to talk about is how
1:18:53 these would be differ
1:18:54 um in different
1:18:56 contexts,
1:18:57 um,
1:18:58 when,
1:18:58 when you translate those
1:19:00 um to other contexts,
1:19:01 Wilson.
1:19:04 I
1:19:08 And
1:19:10 Yes,
1:19:10 I'm mainly uh based in Hong Kong.
1:19:12 Hong Kong,
1:19:13 uh,
1:19:13 is,
1:19:14 uh,
1:19:14 a much developed,
1:19:15 uh,
1:19:15 uh,
1:19:16 economy,
1:19:17 but I,
1:19:17 I also research,
1:19:18 uh,
1:19:19 you know,
1:19:19 the waste management
1:19:21 in some major Chinese cities like,
1:19:24 uh,
1:19:24 Shenzhen and Suzhou.
1:19:26 So,
1:19:27 uh,
1:19:27 it,
1:19:27 it gives me an interesting angle to look at the differences
1:19:31 and the similarities of,
1:19:33 uh,
1:19:34 achieving this,
1:19:34 uh,
1:19:34 circular economy.
1:19:35 But
1:19:36 from the very beginning,
1:19:37 I need to,
1:19:37 uh,
1:19:38 uh,
1:19:38 uh,
1:19:39 mention the magnitude of the problem a little bit.
1:19:43 So,
1:19:43 uh,
1:19:43 actually,
1:19:44 Cairo,
1:19:44 uh,
1:19:45 uh,
1:19:45 in his presentation
1:19:47 mentioned the importance of construction industry
1:19:50 and also the potential,
1:19:52 uh,
1:19:52 of,
1:19:53 uh,
1:19:53 circular economy in developing countries in the developed countries.
1:19:57 Um,
1:19:59 so,
1:19:59 uh,
1:20:00 actually,
1:20:01 interesting in,
1:20:02 in developed economies,
1:20:03 uh,
1:20:03 CD waste
1:20:05 normally takes around 1 quarter of the landfill,
1:20:08 uh,
1:20:09 space.
1:20:09 So a single industry,
1:20:11 OK,
1:20:11 takes
1:20:12 one quarter,
1:20:13 25% of the
1:20:14 valuable land and landfill space.
1:20:17 And this lumber could be larger,
1:20:18 up to
1:20:19 40 to 50%
1:20:21 when it comes to
1:20:23 uh developing economies because they have to
1:20:25 demolish the old buildings
1:20:27 and develop their construction and also
1:20:31 uh uh give land to the new uh buildings.
1:20:35 So to this end,
1:20:36 they have to,
1:20:37 OK,
1:20:37 they must,
1:20:38 uh,
1:20:38 developing,
1:20:39 uh,
1:20:40 uh,
1:20:40 into a circular economy.
1:20:42 So for,
1:20:43 uh,
1:20:43 from what I know,
1:20:44 uh,
1:20:45 my experience in,
1:20:46 in mainland China,
1:20:47 so,
1:20:48 uh,
1:20:48 they have uh several initiatives.
1:20:50 For example,
1:20:51 of course,
1:20:51 you,
1:20:52 we,
1:20:52 we all know,
1:20:53 they put the circular economy in its national registrations.
1:20:57 And,
1:20:58 and
1:20:59 specific tactics,
1:21:01 uh,
1:21:02 vary from one city to another.
1:21:04 For example,
1:21:04 and overall,
1:21:06 now Mainland China has
1:21:08 launched a massive
1:21:10 construction industrialization scheme.
1:21:13 OK.
1:21:14 So,
1:21:14 uh,
1:21:15 they put a traditional cost institute construction,
1:21:18 uh,
1:21:19 a certain
1:21:19 portion back to the factories.
1:21:22 And the DFMA is,
1:21:24 uh,
1:21:24 is much encouraged.
1:21:27 And 3R reduce,
1:21:28 reuse,
1:21:29 and recycling,
1:21:30 uh,
1:21:30 is actively practiced,
1:21:33 uh,
1:21:33 to enhance the circular economy.
1:21:36 Uh,
1:21:36 for example,
1:21:37 uh,
1:21:37 Shenzhen,
1:21:38 now they even,
1:21:40 uh,
1:21:40 pursue a zero construction waste site.
1:21:44 So our traditional wisdom that tells us that,
1:21:46 uh,
1:21:47 on a construction site that more or less you will generate some construction waste.
1:21:51 But now in,
1:21:51 in Shenzhen,
1:21:52 perhaps after
1:21:54 In 2015,
1:21:55 there was a tragedy
1:21:57 of a landslide of,
1:21:58 uh,
1:21:58 CD,
1:21:59 CNND waste debris.
1:22:02 So they pursue now zero construction waste
1:22:06 sites.
1:22:07 So in this case,
1:22:08 you have to
1:22:09 plan your,
1:22:10 you have to make good use of your construction waste management plan,
1:22:15 right?
1:22:15 So how to digest your,
1:22:17 your uh waste for
1:22:19 recycled products and uh some other
1:22:21 ways
1:22:22 to achieve the zero construction waste goal.
1:22:26 I didn't mention
1:22:27 The other three are like rethinking,
1:22:31 refuse,
1:22:31 repair.
1:22:33 Cause uh,
1:22:34 these are not very popular in,
1:22:35 in China.
1:22:36 Uh,
1:22:37 everything is very fast here,
1:22:38 OK?
1:22:39 So,
1:22:40 so they don't have time to rethink that,
1:22:43 refuse anything,
1:22:44 uh,
1:22:44 uh,
1:22:44 old buil uh new buildings
1:22:46 or repaired old buildings.
1:22:49 Although sometimes you can see in some,
1:22:51 uh,
1:22:51 uh,
1:22:52 window jaing uh projects,
1:22:53 you see conservation revitalization.
1:22:56 So you,
1:22:57 you ask me,
1:22:57 uh,
1:22:58 what are the,
1:23:00 uh,
1:23:00 major differences.
1:23:01 I will say,
1:23:02 uh,
1:23:03 uh,
1:23:03 in comparison with the European countries or,
1:23:06 or other developed countries,
1:23:08 uh,
1:23:09 uh,
1:23:09 uh,
1:23:09 the,
1:23:10 the major difference is the dilemma
1:23:13 of faster development
1:23:15 and the,
1:23:15 the circular.
1:23:16 OK.
1:23:17 So everything is happening in a,
1:23:19 in a highly dynamic uh uh context with a very
1:23:23 uh faster pace.
1:23:25 OK.
1:23:26 Uh,
1:23:26 but the difference from other South,
1:23:29 uh,
1:23:30 developing countries,
1:23:31 like I have traveled to
1:23:33 Southeast Asia,
1:23:34 Africa,
1:23:34 quite often.
1:23:36 I will say,
1:23:36 uh,
1:23:37 China is a bit luxury
1:23:39 to have a better economy,
1:23:41 OK,
1:23:41 to achieve this,
1:23:42 uh,
1:23:43 circular economy.
1:23:44 Because now China's economy,
1:23:46 uh,
1:23:46 uh,
1:23:46 has developed in a,
1:23:48 in a relatively
1:23:49 Uh,
1:23:50 advanced stage.
1:23:51 If you go to the two cities like,
1:23:53 uh,
1:23:53 Suzhou or Shenzhen I mentioned,
1:23:55 they are actually quite advanced.
1:23:58 So,
1:23:58 uh,
1:24:00 that's the major difference.
1:24:02 Circularity is not the most urgent issue if
1:24:06 When the economic development is the most uh
1:24:09 urgent issue.
1:24:11 Yeah,
1:24:11 I think that,
1:24:12 that's,
1:24:13 that's,
1:24:13 uh,
1:24:14 a really important perspective.
1:24:16 Um,
1:24:17 just as a little side note,
1:24:19 um,
1:24:19 uh,
1:24:20 in the US,
1:24:21 the landfill volume that is associated to CDD is 40%.
1:24:25 So you're,
1:24:26 you're,
1:24:27 that,
1:24:27 that,
1:24:27 that is a very important comparison,
1:24:29 I think to make.
1:24:30 Um,
1:24:31 uh,
1:24:32 I think it's a really good segue to our next speaker when we talk about rethinking,
1:24:37 um,
1:24:38 I want to turn it to,
1:24:39 to Monica,
1:24:40 um,
1:24:40 and her experience from,
1:24:42 uh,
1:24:43 from Denmark.
1:24:44 Maybe you can tell us a little bit about the,
1:24:46 the challenge that you're running there,
1:24:48 um,
1:24:49 to really rethink,
1:24:50 um,
1:24:51 and have innovative ideas and how the finalists from this
1:24:54 challenge can help scale up,
1:24:57 uh,
1:24:57 circular construction ideas globally.
1:25:00 Um,
1:25:00 and probably what,
1:25:01 what really
1:25:03 would be interesting is what are the important factors for scaling up such ideas,
1:25:08 um,
1:25:09 in,
1:25:09 in our sector that we're,
1:25:11 that we're in.
1:25:13 Yes,
1:25:13 thank you so much.
1:25:15 So,
1:25:15 uh,
1:25:15 yeah,
1:25:16 I'm glad to be here.
1:25:17 Thank you for the invitation to the World Bank and,
1:25:19 and everyone here.
1:25:20 Um,
1:25:20 so yeah,
1:25:21 um,
1:25:21 I will gladly tell you about the circular construction challenge that we ran.
1:25:25 Uh,
1:25:26 a few years ago,
1:25:27 uh,
1:25:27 finished last year.
1:25:29 Uh,
1:25:29 just super short,
1:25:31 uh,
1:25:31 before going into that,
1:25:32 I just want to say the Danish Design Center just to tell you shortly about us.
1:25:35 We are the National Design
1:25:37 lab,
1:25:38 uh,
1:25:39 so driving,
1:25:40 uh,
1:25:40 innovation,
1:25:41 uh,
1:25:41 based on,
1:25:43 uh,
1:25:43 societal,
1:25:44 uh,
1:25:44 challenges
1:25:46 and,
1:25:46 uh,
1:25:46 using design to actually create sustainable growth both for industries,
1:25:50 private sector.
1:25:51 To public sector and society in general.
1:25:53 So just to,
1:25:54 to get that um straight.
1:25:56 But so that was actually what we did with this circular construction challenge.
1:25:59 We actually worked on this
1:26:01 huge challenge that we heard,
1:26:02 uh,
1:26:03 numerous times today
1:26:05 about the enormous,
1:26:06 uh,
1:26:07 amount of waste,
1:26:08 and we all know the numbers.
1:26:09 We heard,
1:26:10 uh,
1:26:10 exactly,
1:26:11 uh,
1:26:11 how,
1:26:12 how crucial it is to also change these numbers.
1:26:14 So that was what we dived into.
1:26:16 Together with the Danish,
1:26:17 uh,
1:26:17 philanthropic association called,
1:26:19 uh,
1:26:20 Velenia,
1:26:21 and,
1:26:21 uh,
1:26:21 together with them we set off to,
1:26:23 to actually invite the industry,
1:26:25 private sector,
1:26:26 and innovators to,
1:26:27 to become part of solving this problem or this big societal challenge about
1:26:32 the construction.
1:26:33 So how can we actually
1:26:34 transform waste into circular solutions for the built environment?
1:26:37 That was actually our open call.
1:26:40 So we got a lot of people,
1:26:41 uh.
1:26:42 Uh,
1:26:42 innovators,
1:26:43 uh,
1:26:44 businesses from Denmark and around the world to actually team up,
1:26:47 uh,
1:26:48 and,
1:26:48 and bid in on these,
1:26:49 uh,
1:26:50 concrete circular solutions.
1:26:52 So we had,
1:26:53 we ended up with three innovation teams,
1:26:54 and I think one of the important things about this challenge was
1:26:57 that we actually asked people to team up across the value chain,
1:27:00 so not just to come up with one idea for the sector,
1:27:03 the construction sector,
1:27:04 but actually
1:27:05 establish the whole value chain.
1:27:07 Uh,
1:27:08 based team,
1:27:09 so you would actually work together on,
1:27:12 uh,
1:27:12 elaborating,
1:27:14 co-creating this concrete circular solution and
1:27:16 the business model surrounding the idea.
1:27:19 So,
1:27:19 so that was actually the aim.
1:27:21 So we had like 3 teams,
1:27:22 we had 3 circular solutions,
1:27:25 and the impact of the challenge,
1:27:26 we started in,
1:27:27 in 2018,
1:27:28 ended in,
1:27:29 in,
1:27:30 in December 2019,
1:27:32 so 16 months of innovation challenge.
1:27:35 Here we work with more than 42 um
1:27:38 uh industry partners from the construction sector and beyond,
1:27:42 from Denmark and internationally,
1:27:44 we also
1:27:44 invited and uh uh research institutions to come on board,
1:27:49 especially in one of the solutions for Focusing on how can we actually use
1:27:53 the biological process of mycelium to grow
1:27:56 new uh construction materials.
1:27:58 So,
1:27:59 if I should kind of,
1:28:00 um,
1:28:00 look into one of the,
1:28:02 of the solutions,
1:28:03 just to show like the scale of it,
1:28:05 it was actually,
1:28:06 um,
1:28:07 Uh,
1:28:07 a solution called
1:28:08 Gintre in,
1:28:09 in,
1:28:09 it's it translates into English to call rewood.
1:28:13 So we're taking all the wood for from building sites,
1:28:16 the,
1:28:16 the contemporary use of wood materials,
1:28:18 timber,
1:28:19 uh,
1:28:20 that usually is used for 6 to 12 months
1:28:23 and then it just go directly into incineration.
1:28:26 So the idea was actually quite simple.
1:28:28 It was to collect all this wood used super uh uh immediate uh for this process
1:28:34 on construction sites
1:28:35 to actually establish the whole infrastructure to
1:28:38 redesign the whole system around this instead
1:28:40 of going directly into the container with waste and then into the incineration.
1:28:44 Then actually constructing that,
1:28:46 um,
1:28:46 or designing that system for how to,
1:28:49 to get out the sorting materials to,
1:28:51 to,
1:28:52 um,
1:28:53 which you say like use a digital platform to actually organize this
1:28:57 to,
1:28:57 to give a notice to
1:28:59 now we would like to get it picked up,
1:29:01 then it get it picked up,
1:29:02 sorted out and cleaned,
1:29:03 packed up and get ready for retail sale again.
1:29:06 So now we actually do have a well functioning.
1:29:09 Uh,
1:29:09 solution,
1:29:10 a business model running on this,
1:29:12 saying that we could actually have
1:29:14 this wood collected and put into retail sale again,
1:29:18 quite easily because they,
1:29:20 um,
1:29:20 due to this,
1:29:21 uh,
1:29:22 value chain collaboration,
1:29:23 established the whole system with every
1:29:25 Point in the journey of that wood.
1:29:27 So actually quite simple solution but very complex system to build up with,
1:29:32 with new agreements and new,
1:29:34 uh,
1:29:34 would you say,
1:29:35 yeah,
1:29:36 uh,
1:29:36 yeah,
1:29:36 new,
1:29:37 new deals with every part of the value chain and,
1:29:40 and the actors involved there.
1:29:43 Thank you.
1:29:43 That,
1:29:44 that is fascinating.
1:29:45 Um,
1:29:46 I'd,
1:29:46 I'd love to learn,
1:29:47 learn more about all of this,
1:29:48 but,
1:29:49 um,
1:29:49 yeah,
1:29:49 we're pressed on,
1:29:50 on time a little bit.
1:29:52 Um,
1:29:52 but also here again,
1:29:53 we have a perfect segue to what,
1:29:55 um,
1:29:56 Salome already mentioned,
1:29:57 uh,
1:29:57 earlier,
1:29:57 you know,
1:29:58 we need,
1:29:58 we need documentation,
1:29:59 we need knowledge,
1:30:00 we need to invent new innovative tools to,
1:30:03 to foster a,
1:30:05 uh,
1:30:06 favorable investment climate for,
1:30:07 for circular construction.
1:30:09 Um,
1:30:10 trans
1:30:10 transitions.
1:30:11 And so maybe,
1:30:12 do you want to tell us a little bit about your work with,
1:30:15 with the Modesta platform or Arrow about 3D
1:30:18 3D printing,
1:30:19 for example,
1:30:20 um,
1:30:21 in,
1:30:21 in using these digital technologies to scale up
1:30:25 the circular construction industry.
1:30:29 Of course,
1:30:30 thank you.
1:30:30 Um,
1:30:31 well,
1:30:31 maybe I should start by saying that
1:30:34 we need,
1:30:34 um,
1:30:36 solutions across the entire scope.
1:30:38 I mentioned before,
1:30:38 all the,
1:30:39 all the different levels of material,
1:30:41 product,
1:30:41 building,
1:30:42 city.
1:30:43 But also across the entire value chain.
1:30:45 Uh,
1:30:46 but all the solutions we can come up with will not compensate for endless growth.
1:30:50 We cannot grow endlessly
1:30:52 and just by making it circular,
1:30:54 closing the loop,
1:30:55 be sustainable.
1:30:56 That's not gonna work.
1:30:56 So we need really,
1:30:57 we need to
1:30:59 use all the instruments,
1:31:00 we need to turn all the knobs a little bit,
1:31:02 uh,
1:31:03 to,
1:31:04 to really make this transition to,
1:31:05 um,
1:31:06 a circular envi uh
1:31:08 a circular,
1:31:08 um,
1:31:09 economy,
1:31:10 um.
1:31:12 So that's,
1:31:12 that's an important point to make,
1:31:14 uh,
1:31:14 I think.
1:31:15 Um,
1:31:16 so,
1:31:16 but what is going to help if we,
1:31:18 if we can facilitate,
1:31:19 uh,
1:31:20 the,
1:31:21 the circular solutions and the circular value chains a bit more.
1:31:25 Uh,
1:31:25 the Modesto platform,
1:31:27 material passports,
1:31:28 I'm sure everyone has heard of them before,
1:31:30 so mapping what's in a building,
1:31:32 having providing information.
1:31:34 Uh,
1:31:35 what's available,
1:31:36 um,
1:31:36 uh,
1:31:37 the quantity,
1:31:38 the quality
1:31:39 to allow people to identify,
1:31:41 uh,
1:31:41 if and how it can be reused after,
1:31:44 um,
1:31:45 It's a great solution,
1:31:47 but it's,
1:31:47 it's,
1:31:47 it doesn't work by itself.
1:31:49 It's really part of a big
1:31:52 process
1:31:53 of information exchange along the value chain.
1:31:56 So if you would ask me,
1:31:58 um,
1:31:59 a material passport would at some point feed into a material,
1:32:03 um,
1:32:04 Uh,
1:32:04 a database,
1:32:05 a marketplace where,
1:32:07 as you mentioned,
1:32:07 supply and demand
1:32:09 can be brought together.
1:32:10 Uh,
1:32:10 it should fit into,
1:32:12 uh,
1:32:12 design tools by architects,
1:32:14 by,
1:32:14 um,
1:32:15 uh,
1:32:15 engineers.
1:32:17 Uh,
1:32:18 those,
1:32:18 that information that they provide should
1:32:20 Go to the producers,
1:32:21 uh,
1:32:22 whether it's prefab or on-site.
1:32:24 So you can,
1:32:24 you should really look at
1:32:26 how the data,
1:32:27 uh,
1:32:28 actually moves along the value chain as some kind of currency,
1:32:32 uh,
1:32:32 to really inform,
1:32:34 uh,
1:32:34 the process and,
1:32:35 and connect,
1:32:36 um,
1:32:37 uh,
1:32:37 the different stakeholders in the process to really allow
1:32:40 them to collaborate in order to achieve these circular
1:32:45 solutions and circular goals.
1:32:49 And thank you so much.
1:32:50 Um,
1:32:52 uh,
1:32:52 person,
1:32:52 I actually know that you also,
1:32:53 um,
1:32:55 Work with innovative and smart technologies.
1:32:58 Um,
1:32:59 um,
1:32:59 we're talking about BIM,
1:33:01 about prefabrication,
1:33:02 modular construction.
1:33:03 I think you,
1:33:04 you've done some of RFID tags.
1:33:06 Um,
1:33:07 and,
1:33:07 and so maybe you could answer for us
1:33:10 what in your perspective are the most promising technologies that can help,
1:33:15 um,
1:33:17 Make this shift towards the circular construction,
1:33:20 um,
1:33:21 uh,
1:33:21 with maybe a specific focus in,
1:33:23 in emerging,
1:33:25 uh,
1:33:25 economies.
1:33:27 Thank you.
1:33:27 Uh,
1:33:28 actually,
1:33:28 I want to
1:33:29 respond a little bit to,
1:33:31 uh,
1:33:31 uh,
1:33:32 uh,
1:33:32 Monica and also Salami's point about the information
1:33:36 sharing platform here
1:33:38 in Hong Kong,
1:33:39 uh,
1:33:39 and we also try to develop that kind of uh
1:33:43 information platform to bridging,
1:33:45 to bridge the demand and the supply.
1:33:47 And we,
1:33:48 we
1:33:50 found that the,
1:33:50 uh,
1:33:51 it is a bit difficult because the timing.
1:33:53 Uh,
1:33:53 to match the demand and supply,
1:33:55 uh,
1:33:55 it's quite difficult.
1:33:56 So,
1:33:57 uh,
1:33:57 now we,
1:33:58 we look over the,
1:34:00 the scale up,
1:34:01 uh,
1:34:01 to the regional level
1:34:02 because we,
1:34:03 if you look at the wider
1:34:05 place,
1:34:05 then
1:34:06 they maybe have more projects and a more buffer to
1:34:09 take,
1:34:10 uh,
1:34:10 uh,
1:34:11 the demand and the supply.
1:34:13 So,
1:34:14 uh,
1:34:14 oh,
1:34:14 back to the,
1:34:15 uh,
1:34:16 emerging,
1:34:16 uh,
1:34:16 uh,
1:34:17 technologies in emerging economies.
1:34:19 I will say,
1:34:20 uh,
1:34:21 OK,
1:34:21 less than no silver bullet,
1:34:23 OK.
1:34:23 Prefabrication and the modular construction
1:34:26 are probably
1:34:27 the most promising
1:34:29 ones to,
1:34:30 uh,
1:34:30 uh,
1:34:31 to achieve this
1:34:32 circular economy in the construction context.
1:34:35 Uh,
1:34:36 we also explore them quite a lot building.
1:34:39 I just,
1:34:39 uh,
1:34:40 uh,
1:34:40 and my book
1:34:41 about BI,
1:34:42 uh,
1:34:42 and the pub and passed to the publisher today.
1:34:45 Um,
1:34:46 Ben is also,
1:34:47 uh,
1:34:48 um,
1:34:49 Uh,
1:34:49 uh,
1:34:49 is helpful but shouldn't be overemphasized
1:34:53 because we all know BIM is just a digital representation
1:34:57 of a physical,
1:34:58 uh,
1:34:58 building or infra uh or
1:35:01 infrastructure.
1:35:02 Uh,
1:35:03 uh,
1:35:03 the,
1:35:03 the strengths of a BIIM,
1:35:05 OK,
1:35:06 to,
1:35:06 to me is you can
1:35:08 actually simulate different,
1:35:10 uh,
1:35:11 uh,
1:35:11 design options.
1:35:13 To achieve,
1:35:14 to,
1:35:14 to calculate the uh
1:35:16 circularities
1:35:18 without having to build any physical
1:35:20 construction.
1:35:21 OK.
1:35:21 That's the major uh uh strengths.
1:35:24 So you have a virtual platform for you to
1:35:26 try out different design,
1:35:28 OK?
1:35:28 With a view to achieving
1:35:30 circularity.
1:35:31 But Bin itself cannot do anything without information.
1:35:35 So,
1:35:35 uh,
1:35:36 currently,
1:35:37 Uh,
1:35:38 we,
1:35:38 I
1:35:39 don't really have the sufficient information
1:35:42 to inform,
1:35:43 uh,
1:35:43 what kind of materials,
1:35:45 what kind of a design
1:35:47 will be generating,
1:35:48 how much construction waste.
1:35:51 So we are still trying to develop that kind of a connection.
1:35:55 To enrich the information in film.
1:35:59 OK,
1:35:59 that's pretty much uh what I want to say about this aspect.
1:36:03 Thank you.
1:36:04 That's great.
1:36:05 Thank you so much.
1:36:06 Um,
1:36:07 I can't help but add that,
1:36:08 um,
1:36:10 based on these two comments,
1:36:12 um,
1:36:12 I,
1:36:13 I fully share these,
1:36:14 um,
1:36:15 these ideas.
1:36:16 Uh,
1:36:16 we've actually started developing tools to
1:36:19 To bring in
1:36:20 the,
1:36:21 the circularity calculation much earlier into the design process,
1:36:25 right?
1:36:25 My,
1:36:26 my problem is that we,
1:36:27 we build something,
1:36:28 then we have the elaborate BIM model at the end,
1:36:30 and then we calculate the circularity indicator,
1:36:32 whereas the indicator could be a design tool if we managed to,
1:36:36 to,
1:36:37 to think about it much earlier in the process.
1:36:39 So I think this is a really important point that you made there.
1:36:42 Um,
1:36:44 we,
1:36:44 we began talking about this in,
1:36:46 in this panel today about the,
1:36:47 the specifics of the,
1:36:49 the construction industry,
1:36:50 um,
1:36:51 in terms of the multitude of stakeholders that
1:36:54 are involved in all of these decisions.
1:36:57 Um,
1:36:57 and I wanna,
1:36:58 um,
1:37:00 address this question to,
1:37:01 to Monica.
1:37:02 Um,
1:37:03 Considering what she's just told us about these wonderful
1:37:06 projects,
1:37:07 um,
1:37:08 uh,
1:37:08 and innovation challenges that of course
1:37:11 touch all of these different stakeholders,
1:37:12 right?
1:37:13 Um,
1:37:13 and I,
1:37:14 I,
1:37:14 I would really like to hear from her what the major challenges were when,
1:37:17 when implementing these new ideas
1:37:22 across all these different sectors and what kind of
1:37:24 cross-sector
1:37:25 partnerships can help
1:37:27 such a transition and
1:37:29 Um,
1:37:30 considering the setting that we're in here,
1:37:32 um,
1:37:32 it would be great if you could add something about how,
1:37:35 what,
1:37:36 how these lessons from these processes
1:37:38 could help us in,
1:37:39 in developing countries.
1:37:42 Yes,
1:37:42 thank you.
1:37:43 Um,
1:37:44 I definitely think one of the biggest problem of,
1:37:47 of the,
1:37:47 taken from the work that we did in the circular construction challenge,
1:37:50 but also in,
1:37:51 in other projects alike,
1:37:53 uh,
1:37:53 that's actually the missing understanding of each other's culture,
1:37:57 like the cultural understanding of the different business
1:38:00 models of the different ways of working,
1:38:02 and I definitely think that was one of the,
1:38:04 the,
1:38:04 the strengthens,
1:38:05 uh,
1:38:05 about,
1:38:06 uh,
1:38:06 this,
1:38:07 uh.
1:38:07 Challenge
1:38:08 is getting everyone from the across the value chain in the same room
1:38:11 and now,
1:38:12 uh,
1:38:12 and therefore I also wanna touch upon the role of design because
1:38:15 I actually think that's what design is and the role of design
1:38:19 here,
1:38:19 uh,
1:38:20 where,
1:38:20 where it has an,
1:38:21 an important,
1:38:22 uh,
1:38:23 value to,
1:38:24 to facilitate this
1:38:26 dialogue,
1:38:27 this cultural understanding,
1:38:28 and I also wanna
1:38:29 go back to Sabin who is like
1:38:31 She was like telling,
1:38:32 saying that tech cannot do this alone.
1:38:34 I definitely think as we also already touched upon,
1:38:36 that technology is a,
1:38:38 as a,
1:38:38 as a,
1:38:39 as a brilliant enabler of many things and also
1:38:42 of the scalability and these solutions in itself,
1:38:44 but I definitely think
1:38:46 that the cultural shift and the mindset
1:38:48 that's facilitated through an open dialogue,
1:38:50 transparency,
1:38:51 and this,
1:38:52 um,
1:38:53 facilitated,
1:38:54 uh,
1:38:55 process,
1:38:55 co-creation across the value chain.
1:38:57 So,
1:38:57 so I think the big
1:38:59 Big,
1:38:59 one of the big challenges that we met was actually the missing understanding of,
1:39:03 of,
1:39:04 of the incentives from different actors and what
1:39:07 can we actually shift and turn and twist
1:39:09 to actually
1:39:10 work better together.
1:39:11 So I think,
1:39:12 of course,
1:39:12 there's a lot of,
1:39:13 of things already,
1:39:14 uh,
1:39:14 uh,
1:39:15 working there,
1:39:16 uh,
1:39:16 and,
1:39:16 and getting done,
1:39:18 but I think that's the role of design as I put down here,
1:39:21 I think establishing that trust and that open dialogue is one of the most important.
1:39:25 Uh,
1:39:26 drivers for actually
1:39:27 scaling and implementing these,
1:39:30 uh,
1:39:30 circular value chain-based,
1:39:31 um,
1:39:32 um solutions.
1:39:33 So,
1:39:34 and if we should look towards,
1:39:36 um,
1:39:37 how to actually work around this in,
1:39:38 in developing countries,
1:39:40 I would definitely say that,
1:39:42 that creating and supporting that infrastructure for,
1:39:45 for an open and transparent dialogue,
1:39:47 this like trustful collaboration,
1:39:50 I definitely think that's,
1:39:51 that's Uh,
1:39:52 a job to be done to support.
1:39:54 I think there's a lot of things already going on,
1:39:56 but
1:39:56 to build on and,
1:39:57 and facilitate and stimulate that
1:40:00 collaboration,
1:40:01 uh,
1:40:01 and that co-creation,
1:40:03 uh,
1:40:03 is definitely,
1:40:04 um,
1:40:05 one thing and one approach that could be easily scaled,
1:40:09 um,
1:40:09 to,
1:40:09 to everywhere in the world
1:40:11 with good designers,
1:40:12 good facilitators on board,
1:40:14 and,
1:40:14 and,
1:40:14 uh,
1:40:15 and the structure and infrastructure to actually stimulate this.
1:40:19 Great.
1:40:19 Thank you so much.
1:40:21 Um,
1:40:22 maybe back to,
1:40:22 to Wilson,
1:40:23 uh,
1:40:24 as a,
1:40:24 as a direct follow-up.
1:40:25 Um,
1:40:26 how,
1:40:26 how would you,
1:40:28 um,
1:40:29 establish public-private partnerships in this setting,
1:40:34 um,
1:40:35 in emerging
1:40:36 countries,
1:40:36 talking about circular construction?
1:40:39 Are there lessons learned that we can imply implement?
1:40:42 OK,
1:40:43 thank you,
1:40:43 Felix.
1:40:44 Uh,
1:40:45 yes,
1:40:46 I remember,
1:40:46 uh,
1:40:47 one of the speakers clearly mentioned we have to involve the
1:40:51 private sector,
1:40:52 OK,
1:40:52 to,
1:40:53 uh,
1:40:53 achieve,
1:40:54 achieve this circular economy,
1:40:56 but,
1:40:56 uh,
1:40:56 in this case,
1:40:57 uh,
1:40:57 uh,
1:40:58 private sector is,
1:40:59 um,
1:41:00 quite hesitating
1:41:02 because,
1:41:02 uh,
1:41:02 uh,
1:41:03 the,
1:41:03 um,
1:41:04 And during this value chain,
1:41:06 OK?
1:41:07 The,
1:41:08 uh,
1:41:08 recycled products and some to,
1:41:11 uh,
1:41:11 achieve the,
1:41:12 uh,
1:41:12 recyclers actually comes with a,
1:41:15 a cost.
1:41:17 So,
1:41:17 uh,
1:41:17 I,
1:41:18 I,
1:41:18 uh,
1:41:19 researched,
1:41:19 I,
1:41:19 I,
1:41:20 I came across a very interesting case in
1:41:22 Suzhou,
1:41:23 uh,
1:41:23 uh,
1:41:24 mainland China.
1:41:25 It's a very,
1:41:25 uh,
1:41:26 uh,
1:41:27 it's developing very fast uh
1:41:29 place,
1:41:29 and
1:41:31 They introduced uh PPP,
1:41:34 uh,
1:41:34 uh,
1:41:35 public,
1:41:36 private partnership
1:41:38 in
1:41:39 developing some,
1:41:39 uh,
1:41:40 re recycling.
1:41:42 Uh,
1:41:42 uh,
1:41:43 uh,
1:41:44 plant,
1:41:44 a very,
1:41:45 uh,
1:41:45 sizable,
1:41:46 uh,
1:41:46 recycling plant.
1:41:48 But we know PPP has some,
1:41:50 uh,
1:41:50 shortcomings,
1:41:51 for example,
1:41:52 long negotiated time.
1:41:53 At the very beginning,
1:41:54 uh,
1:41:55 you
1:41:55 argue for,
1:41:56 uh,
1:41:57 a concession.
1:41:58 Uh,
1:41:58 uh,
1:41:59 contract that,
1:42:00 uh,
1:42:00 based on very limited information,
1:42:02 right?
1:42:03 So,
1:42:03 um,
1:42:04 and on the way,
1:42:05 uh,
1:42:05 when it is delivers,
1:42:07 uh,
1:42:07 a lot of the risk averse and some other
1:42:09 issues.
1:42:10 But in this case,
1:42:11 uh,
1:42:11 they have,
1:42:12 uh,
1:42:13 several innovations
1:42:14 in developing this,
1:42:16 uh,
1:42:16 PPP.
1:42:17 For example,
1:42:17 they
1:42:18 introduced,
1:42:19 uh,
1:42:19 kind of a relational contract.
1:42:22 Without having to
1:42:23 negotiate
1:42:25 a very rigid uh contractor from the very beginning.
1:42:29 So they have like 15 years.
1:42:32 Uh,
1:42:33 15 years framework,
1:42:34 but every 3 years,
1:42:36 They,
1:42:37 they review the business
1:42:39 and then determine the concession terms.
1:42:42 So,
1:42:42 uh,
1:42:43 through this way,
1:42:44 uh,
1:42:44 both parties,
1:42:45 the private sector and the public sectors,
1:42:47 OK,
1:42:48 can be,
1:42:48 uh,
1:42:49 uh,
1:42:49 uh,
1:42:49 uh,
1:42:50 guaranteed a certain
1:42:51 level of uh profitability.
1:42:54 And also,
1:42:55 they,
1:42:55 uh,
1:42:57 introduce,
1:42:58 uh,
1:43:00 Uh,
1:43:00 kind of,
1:43:01 kind of a guarantee the minimal,
1:43:02 uh,
1:43:03 supply of CD waste.
1:43:04 Interesting.
1:43:05 Uh,
1:43:06 lots of plants,
1:43:07 they,
1:43:08 they need to have a sufficient
1:43:10 CD waste supply
1:43:12 to,
1:43:13 to achieve the so-called scale of economy,
1:43:15 right?
1:43:16 So in this PPP they also,
1:43:18 the,
1:43:18 the,
1:43:18 the public sector also guarantee this aspect.
1:43:22 OK.
1:43:22 And then they also introduced some other innovations,
1:43:26 for example,
1:43:26 to
1:43:27 have a trans transparent information sharing,
1:43:30 and so on and so forth.
1:43:32 So I,
1:43:33 I published this in a,
1:43:34 in a paper.
1:43:35 I,
1:43:36 I found that that's quite interesting.
1:43:39 Thank you so much for sharing this.
1:43:40 Um,
1:43:42 maybe uh we're,
1:43:42 we're running a little bit,
1:43:44 uh,
1:43:44 low on time,
1:43:45 but I want to give,
1:43:46 uh,
1:43:46 Solomon the,
1:43:47 the chance to also chime in into this discussion and to address some
1:43:51 coordination challenges from,
1:43:53 from her experience
1:43:54 that might be interesting and,
1:43:56 and important to know in this,
1:43:57 in this international conversation here.
1:44:02 I've I've still got so much to,
1:44:04 to talk about,
1:44:04 but,
1:44:05 um,
1:44:05 if we talk about the,
1:44:06 the,
1:44:06 the collaboration between the public and the private sector.
1:44:10 Uh,
1:44:10 in my opinion,
1:44:11 and also what I hear from the market is that it's,
1:44:13 it would be very nice to have clear regulation.
1:44:16 So we have this dot on the horizon that we want to be fully circular in 2050,
1:44:20 but working backwards,
1:44:21 what that does that actually mean?
1:44:24 And um how can
1:44:25 we make sure that companies develop or innovate in the right direction
1:44:29 and they don't hear a different story like two years from now.
1:44:32 So they want some security,
1:44:34 uh,
1:44:34 of,
1:44:35 um,
1:44:36 Yeah,
1:44:36 where this is gonna go.
1:44:37 So I think regulations are very important and uh even
1:44:40 though our national government is a little bit slow,
1:44:43 we think,
1:44:44 uh,
1:44:44 the,
1:44:45 the businesses collaboratively are actually sometimes requesting this,
1:44:48 so they're actually
1:44:49 pushing the national government for clear regulations
1:44:52 that
1:44:52 Maybe start
1:44:53 at a level where it's fairly easy to implement,
1:44:56 but they know that it will be
1:44:58 sort of the thumb screws will be turned on
1:45:00 and they will know that it's going to be stricter,
1:45:04 so they will know what is going to be expected from them a couple of years from now.
1:45:08 Um,
1:45:10 also,
1:45:10 I would like to mention costs
1:45:12 because obviously in some cases,
1:45:14 uh,
1:45:14 the costs are higher,
1:45:15 especially when new,
1:45:16 uh,
1:45:17 solutions are being implemented or at least
1:45:19 there's insecurity that could implicate extra costs.
1:45:23 In practice,
1:45:23 this does not always have to be the case.
1:45:25 But what we do know is that if you're looking at individual pro uh products
1:45:29 or,
1:45:30 or individual companies in this enormous value chains,
1:45:34 they can have higher costs,
1:45:35 but if you look at the total,
1:45:38 The picture looks
1:45:39 or can look very different,
1:45:42 especially,
1:45:42 and I think this is very key,
1:45:43 and this is actually a very important lobby
1:45:46 point for us.
1:45:48 We believe that we pay
1:45:51 less or not enough for materials,
1:45:53 so we don't pay for the externalities,
1:45:56 we don't pay for the extra costs.
1:45:59 So the level playing field is in the current situation
1:46:02 very difficult or it can be difficult to achieve.
1:46:05 So we think.
1:46:06 That labor should become cheaper and materials should become more
1:46:10 expensive because actually the circular economy requires a lot more people
1:46:15 to facilitate that,
1:46:16 to make that work.
1:46:17 And uh given the corona crisis,
1:46:19 we actually,
1:46:20 uh,
1:46:21 we have a lot of people that are,
1:46:22 that can't work at the moment that are not sure of their jobs in the near future.
1:46:26 So it,
1:46:27 it,
1:46:27 it could really be a win-win situation,
1:46:29 but if we try to solve everything
1:46:31 within,
1:46:32 as we say,
1:46:32 the Linear economy within the linear economy rules,
1:46:36 it's,
1:46:36 it's being made difficult for us.
1:46:37 So
1:46:38 there's this couple of big
1:46:40 wheels to turn,
1:46:41 whether it's um
1:46:42 national,
1:46:43 we prefer that to be done on a European level.
1:46:46 Uh,
1:46:46 that would be wonderful and could be really a massive game changer
1:46:50 because until then
1:46:52 I believe that we're doing
1:46:54 small optimizations,
1:46:56 but we really require a big transition.
1:46:59 And uh if we don't go into that big transition,
1:47:02 if it's not gonna hurt,
1:47:03 if it's gonna stay
1:47:04 pleasant and innovative and
1:47:07 nice,
1:47:08 uh,
1:47:08 we're not gonna make the goals we set ourselves,
1:47:11 so um we've got a lot of work to do.
1:47:14 That's a wonderful,
1:47:15 uh,
1:47:16 way to end this panel
1:47:18 on this note.
1:47:19 Um,
1:47:19 I,
1:47:19 I want to,
1:47:20 um,
1:47:21 thank all of you for,
1:47:22 for,
1:47:23 um,
1:47:23 adding these,
1:47:24 your,
1:47:25 your perspectives.
1:47:26 And I,
1:47:26 and I think the reason why this is so important for us is that,
1:47:29 uh,
1:47:29 um,
1:47:30 going back to,
1:47:31 to Carol's introduction,
1:47:32 that we,
1:47:33 I think now,
1:47:34 in the last years,
1:47:34 we really figured out what is this paradigm shift.
1:47:37 Um,
1:47:38 where,
1:47:38 where do we want to go?
1:47:39 What we don't know,
1:47:40 in my opinion,
1:47:41 is what do we do locally tomorrow,
1:47:43 right?
1:47:44 And so this exchange of ideas,
1:47:46 how we can implement,
1:47:48 what,
1:47:48 what,
1:47:48 what could be the next steps,
1:47:50 uh,
1:47:50 in enabling
1:47:51 a circular transition.
1:47:53 Um,
1:47:53 I think this,
1:47:54 this sharing is,
1:47:55 is so important to now move this big idea,
1:47:57 this paradigm shift locally
1:47:59 forward.
1:48:00 Um,
1:48:01 and with that,
1:48:02 I'm gonna
1:48:03 turn it back to
1:48:04 Nay.
1:48:05 Thank you so much.
1:48:08 Thank you again for this really interesting and dynamic discussion.
1:48:12 We could already see some cross-sectoral partnership and intersection
1:48:16 among the panelists,
1:48:17 which is really
1:48:19 uh the key to
1:48:20 finding and co-creating
1:48:22 the meaningful solutions as,
1:48:24 as,
1:48:24 as Monika and
1:48:25 other panelists have mentioned.
1:48:27 I'd like to,
1:48:28 uh,
1:48:29 uh,
1:48:29 I'd like for us to move on to
1:48:32 the next.
1:48:34 Uh,
1:48:34 panel,
1:48:35 open panel discussion.
1:48:37 And Q&A session.
1:48:39 Robert again has uh
1:48:41 uh generously offered to moderate this session.
1:48:44 Here,
1:48:44 we'd like to give Robert and the audience the
1:48:47 opportunity to raise additional questions and topics that they
1:48:51 That may not have been uh covered in the previous panel discussions.
1:48:55 If you,
1:48:55 the audience has any questions,
1:48:57 uh,
1:48:58 to any of the panelists,
1:48:59 please raise them now.
1:49:01 Uh,
1:49:01 Robert,
1:49:01 do you have any pending questions,
1:49:02 uh,
1:49:03 for one or,
1:49:03 uh,
1:49:04 several,
1:49:04 uh,
1:49:04 panelists?
1:49:05 Uh,
1:49:05 please
1:49:06 also keep in mind that this session is,
1:49:08 um,
1:49:09 is,
1:49:09 uh,
1:49:10 actually was scheduled for 15 minutes,
1:49:12 but now we have,
1:49:12 uh,
1:49:13 a little bit less time,
1:49:14 uh,
1:49:15 so a bit shorter than the previous two panels.
1:49:18 Sure.
1:49:19 Thank you again,
1:49:19 Nay,
1:49:20 for the introduction and uh
1:49:22 we'll try and cover some
1:49:25 great distance and questions here in the next 7 minutes that we have,
1:49:28 um,
1:49:28 at least to get the conversation started.
1:49:32 Uh,
1:49:32 maybe the first one is just a follow-up,
1:49:34 uh,
1:49:34 uh,
1:49:34 from,
1:49:35 uh,
1:49:35 the audience for Eric,
1:49:37 uh,
1:49:37 Bourdon and Vica,
1:49:38 and
1:49:40 it's a little bit of a building on the conversation that we had.
1:49:43 In terms of more drastic
1:49:45 um
1:49:46 acceleration towards the long term
1:49:49 goals and objectives,
1:49:51 um,
1:49:52 I don't,
1:49:53 I,
1:49:53 I don't really wanna call it an incremental approach today because a lot of
1:49:57 arduous work has been done,
1:49:59 but what could be done to really,
1:50:02 you know,
1:50:02 make a step change in transforming the supply and,
1:50:06 and value chains in,
1:50:07 um,
1:50:08 in our sectors.
1:50:09 Hm.
1:50:11 Um,
1:50:12 so it's clear that we,
1:50:13 we,
1:50:13 we need
1:50:16 a fair level playing.
1:50:18 This is very important in order to facilitate,
1:50:21 let's say,
1:50:21 the.
1:50:23 Actions for the
1:50:26 people who are keen to make some progress because there
1:50:29 are a lot of risks that this has been addressed
1:50:32 and so it's very important to create an area where we can play
1:50:39 properly and safely
1:50:42 because there are a lot,
1:50:43 a lot of risks.
1:50:44 If we talk about
1:50:46 the Europe,
1:50:48 the European community
1:50:50 today we are under discussion the cross-border adjustment mechanisms,
1:50:56 and this is something which will most probably help
1:51:01 to protect this market
1:51:03 as far as the WTO allows it,
1:51:06 of course,
1:51:07 but this is very important to be able to do that.
1:51:10 Uh,
1:51:11 on top of that or in parallel if we cannot obtain this cross-border adjustment
1:51:17 mechanism,
1:51:18 it means that we have from the
1:51:22 public command to have some visibility.
1:51:26 On volumes
1:51:27 and maybe uh to uh to fix,
1:51:29 uh,
1:51:29 you know,
1:51:30 a carbon price thanks to
1:51:32 a system like uh carbon contract for different
1:51:35 or things like that that that would help
1:51:38 for sure.
1:51:38 OK,
1:51:39 great,
1:51:40 thank you.
1:51:40 I think that's,
1:51:41 uh,
1:51:42 clearly an important,
1:51:43 uh,
1:51:44 consideration and,
1:51:44 and I guess building on that there's another question here.
1:51:48 In regards to
1:51:50 the,
1:51:50 the role of government and state owned enterprises in uh moving the needle
1:51:57 on,
1:51:57 on uh the global
1:51:59 circular economy and as it relates to construction
1:52:01 and maybe I'll turn that question to,
1:52:04 to Andrew,
1:52:05 uh,
1:52:05 given your,
1:52:06 your work with um various state-owned enterprises around the world and,
1:52:10 and governments.
1:52:12 So,
1:52:12 what do you think is the role and,
1:52:14 and um
1:52:15 how,
1:52:16 how should
1:52:17 we help shape that as both the World Bank and,
1:52:19 and more broadly?
1:52:23 I think,
1:52:24 uh,
1:52:24 it's got a significant role.
1:52:26 Um,
1:52:26 I go back to something I said earlier,
1:52:28 uh,
1:52:28 in terms of the paradigm of there's a production and it's the consumption.
1:52:31 They have a role at both ends of that.
1:52:33 So on the consumption end,
1:52:34 they have a role in the,
1:52:35 in the building regulations,
1:52:37 um,
1:52:38 and,
1:52:38 uh,
1:52:38 and how the building regulations are established to ensure that this performance
1:52:43 is not compromised,
1:52:44 so the fire resistance isn't compromised,
1:52:46 the durability is not compromised.
1:52:48 But there's,
1:52:49 within the building regulations
1:52:50 and the planning,
1:52:51 there's some onus on
1:52:53 how much materials being used,
1:52:55 bringing in material efficiency
1:52:57 in the building code system,
1:52:58 I think can do a lot
1:53:00 to,
1:53:01 to narrow the flow in the circular economy,
1:53:04 to narrow the flow.
1:53:05 Building regulations have a role and planning.
1:53:08 In the production side,
1:53:09 I think there's a key aspect,
1:53:10 um.
1:53:12 In terms of the cement and concrete industry,
1:53:14 um,
1:53:15 in,
1:53:15 uh,
1:53:15 in enabling and equipping access
1:53:18 to,
1:53:18 uh,
1:53:18 waste materials
1:53:20 from other industries,
1:53:21 um,
1:53:22 in,
1:53:22 in order to,
1:53:23 uh,
1:53:23 get
1:53:24 a hard demolition waste
1:53:26 not being landfilled.
1:53:27 We know that Japan,
1:53:29 Netherlands,
1:53:30 UK,
1:53:30 they've got policies
1:53:31 which mean that hard demolition waste isn't going to landfill,
1:53:34 it's coming back into the construction cycle.
1:53:37 So we know it's possible.
1:53:38 You need to have the right regulations and planning and,
1:53:41 and,
1:53:41 and Eric mentioned those before.
1:53:43 Sure,
1:53:43 yeah,
1:53:44 and,
1:53:44 and I think that those are
1:53:46 certainly,
1:53:47 um,
1:53:47 areas that also World Bank can help shape with sort
1:53:50 of policy frameworks and making sure that those pillars that,
1:53:53 uh,
1:53:54 support the entire,
1:53:55 uh,
1:53:55 circularity are,
1:53:56 are there in place and maybe on that note in terms of performance and building codes
1:54:01 turn it to,
1:54:02 to Salome,
1:54:03 um.
1:54:04 And,
1:54:05 and you talked a lot about the the materials passports
1:54:08 and sort of uh collaborating across the value chain,
1:54:12 uh,
1:54:12 and I know your perspective is,
1:54:13 uh,
1:54:14 from,
1:54:14 from the demand side as it were,
1:54:16 is a little different perhaps than the supply side,
1:54:18 but without getting into
1:54:20 to perhaps too much of a controversial topic,
1:54:23 like what is your view on,
1:54:25 on,
1:54:26 um.
1:54:27 Maintaining the quality of building materials as
1:54:30 we move to new business models and,
1:54:32 and sort of that performance that Andrew is mentioning
1:54:35 and how do you think about that in,
1:54:36 in the passports and uh
1:54:38 and,
1:54:39 and the overall performance of the construction sector.
1:54:44 Um,
1:54:44 yeah,
1:54:44 let me say that we as a local government are only just one of the many players,
1:54:49 as mentioned before in the entire sector.
1:54:51 Um,
1:54:52 I'm actually not too worried about,
1:54:53 uh,
1:54:54 the building
1:54:55 materials quality.
1:54:56 I know that it's
1:54:58 very,
1:54:58 um,
1:54:59 um,
1:54:59 scary maybe sometimes to do new things or to try new things,
1:55:03 but it doesn't mean
1:55:04 that,
1:55:05 uh,
1:55:05 the quality of the materials actually implicated.
1:55:08 One of the massive green deals that we uh just closed regionally end of last year is a,
1:55:14 is a building in wood.
1:55:15 Uh,
1:55:16 agreement,
1:55:17 uh,
1:55:17 and in some cases,
1:55:18 Carol showed a picture in his presentation.
1:55:21 We built one of the,
1:55:22 or maybe even the biggest
1:55:24 high-rise
1:55:25 building in woods in the Netherlands,
1:55:27 uh,
1:55:27 last year.
1:55:28 So this is a,
1:55:29 let's say a traditional material,
1:55:31 uh,
1:55:31 that we're going to reintroduce,
1:55:33 um,
1:55:34 uh,
1:55:34 and,
1:55:36 and we still have questions but that can be,
1:55:37 uh,
1:55:37 researched.
1:55:38 Um,
1:55:39 so I think the most important thing is to
1:55:41 Not be afraid to try out new things.
1:55:44 Um,
1:55:44 make sure that the quality checks are there.
1:55:46 I think certification is gonna be a massive,
1:55:49 um,
1:55:50 a theme,
1:55:51 not only for new products but also for for secondary products.
1:55:55 If you're gonna reuse products,
1:55:56 how do you know that it,
1:55:58 it can,
1:55:59 if the quality is high enough,
1:56:00 if it's fitting in your building for the coming 50
1:56:03 or 100 years even and who's gonna take that responsibility?
1:56:06 Um.
1:56:08 Sometimes we use traditional materials that we already
1:56:11 know or we have to bring back the,
1:56:13 uh,
1:56:13 the knowledge and the information,
1:56:15 but it doesn't mean that we should not,
1:56:17 uh,
1:56:17 try it and,
1:56:18 um,
1:56:19 as mentioned before,
1:56:20 I think we should be looking at
1:56:22 the,
1:56:22 the total.
1:56:23 Range of costs and benefits
1:56:25 and if you add them all up,
1:56:27 um,
1:56:28 I,
1:56:28 I believe that uh the building materials of the future might be
1:56:32 fairly easily different than the ones we're using at the moment.
1:56:36 Um,
1:56:37 so,
1:56:37 uh,
1:56:37 yeah,
1:56:37 thank you.
1:56:38 Well,
1:56:39 thank you for that perspective.
1:56:40 I think that's uh brings up some interesting points and,
1:56:43 and maybe on that note we'll
1:56:44 move to,
1:56:46 um.
1:56:48 To Monica with a question in
1:56:50 picking up a little bit on this theme and extending it to your comments on
1:56:56 that collaboration across the Valley chain and the partnering and,
1:56:59 and how do,
1:57:00 do different stakeholders across the Valley chain cooperate and
1:57:05 If you can take the,
1:57:06 the Danish,
1:57:07 uh,
1:57:08 experience and,
1:57:08 and let's try and translate it into the developing economies,
1:57:12 uh,
1:57:12 where a lot of this work will happen and Franco,
1:57:15 a lot of the construction materials will be consumed in the next 50 years,
1:57:18 most of them,
1:57:19 the vast majority I would even say.
1:57:21 What would be your recommendation and some of the key points that,
1:57:24 that you would want to see included in,
1:57:27 in shaping the construct the circular construction economy and
1:57:31 based on the cooperation in,
1:57:32 in the developing world.
1:57:36 Not not to unpacking that question,
1:57:38 but let's let's see if we can do that.
1:57:40 Yes,
1:57:40 there's a lot of things to tackle in,
1:57:42 in,
1:57:42 in a short time,
1:57:42 but I would definitely say.
1:57:44 Or at least proposed to designing for,
1:57:47 for circularity from the start and from the beginning.
1:57:49 So with all of these emerging business models,
1:57:51 I would go through every part of the,
1:57:54 the business model to actually see
1:57:55 where can we improve,
1:57:56 where could we look into,
1:57:58 for example,
1:57:58 the,
1:57:59 the supply,
1:58:00 the distribution,
1:58:01 if you go into the start of life cycle,
1:58:03 if you go into the product life,
1:58:05 see how can you design for
1:58:07 disassembly,
1:58:07 modular design,
1:58:09 think.
1:58:09 About how you can actually
1:58:11 look into both when creating buildings,
1:58:13 when creating secondary buildings,
1:58:16 when creating systems,
1:58:17 modular.
1:58:18 Think about modularity,
1:58:19 think about design for disassembly.
1:58:21 Think about how can we repair,
1:58:23 repair,
1:58:23 reuse.
1:58:24 So we can like prolong the whole extending uh the product phase and extend that
1:58:31 for as long as possible.
1:58:32 And then also design for For the end of life and look into
1:58:36 how can we,
1:58:37 if not,
1:58:38 uh,
1:58:39 keeping it in the product phase,
1:58:40 how can we actually
1:58:41 design for,
1:58:42 for,
1:58:43 for,
1:58:44 for new use and,
1:58:45 and,
1:58:45 and reuse and upcycling.
1:58:47 So,
1:58:47 so there are,
1:58:48 I think there's so many ways to,
1:58:49 to actually
1:58:50 both map out and design new systems and new business models within this,
1:58:54 look into leasing models.
1:58:56 Do we actually
1:58:57 need to own everything.
1:58:58 Things.
1:58:59 So,
1:58:59 so there's a lot of emerging business models
1:59:01 already out there where also technology helps.
1:59:04 And then I think establishing partnerships,
1:59:07 not only between public sector but
1:59:09 actually talking about the challenge that Salome and I are actually part of both
1:59:13 is establishing a partnership across cities.
1:59:16 So we have Amsterdam,
1:59:17 Copenhagen,
1:59:17 Toronto,
1:59:18 New York,
1:59:19 and Glasgow working together on enabling digital and data-driven solutions.
1:59:23 For circular cities
1:59:25 on that point,
1:59:26 how could you,
1:59:27 so those cities,
1:59:28 they're great,
1:59:29 they read like cosmetic,
1:59:30 you know,
1:59:31 labels type of thing,
1:59:32 right,
1:59:32 like New York,
1:59:33 Tokyo type of thing.
1:59:34 But in the developing world,
1:59:36 how do you extend relationships and if you can take
1:59:38 just 30 seconds to tell how you translate that experience
1:59:41 into the emerging frontier
1:59:44 markets which have
1:59:45 very different realities
1:59:47 than the developed world.
1:59:50 It's a super good question.
1:59:51 I would definitely think that this,
1:59:53 that,
1:59:53 the,
1:59:53 the collaboration model would also work
1:59:56 everywhere,
1:59:56 so also in the developing countries.
1:59:58 I think,
1:59:59 uh,
1:59:59 great actors and players like the World Bank and,
2:00:02 and,
2:00:02 and,
2:00:02 and other organizations can help support these collaborations
2:00:06 and actually establish that infrastructure of collaborating together and across
2:00:10 countries and cities and private sector as well.
2:00:13 So I think
2:00:14 it's definitely also inviting people in.
2:00:18 Into this collaboration because there's no doubt that the skills are there,
2:00:21 uh,
2:00:22 the materials and all,
2:00:23 uh,
2:00:23 heritage is there,
2:00:24 and as Salomemi also said,
2:00:26 many of the developing countries are actually much more
2:00:29 circular in their,
2:00:31 in their practice,
2:00:31 uh,
2:00:32 uh,
2:00:32 than we are in,
2:00:33 in,
2:00:33 in the so-called first world countries.
2:00:36 Sure,
2:00:36 great.
2:00:37 Well,
2:00:37 thank you so much for that additional perspective,
2:00:39 and,
2:00:40 and I hate to cut off this conversation again,
2:00:42 as I said several times,
2:00:43 we can continue this forever,
2:00:45 very interesting and.
2:00:46 And I think on that note we've had a fantastic uh panel,
2:00:50 uh,
2:00:51 two panels today,
2:00:52 and touched on a lot of very interesting,
2:00:55 uh,
2:00:56 topics that is,
2:00:56 is really,
2:00:58 I mean this is really a point of departure,
2:01:00 uh,
2:01:00 although we've
2:01:01 as an industry departed,
2:01:02 uh,
2:01:03 a long time ago on this topic,
2:01:05 but this,
2:01:06 this webinar hopefully
2:01:07 uh sets the stage to continue a conversation
2:01:09 across industry and across sort of national borders
2:01:12 and stakeholders.
2:01:14 Uh,
2:01:14 so thank you everybody for,
2:01:16 for your,
2:01:16 uh,
2:01:17 uh,
2:01:17 insights today and your,
2:01:19 um,
2:01:20 your,
2:01:20 uh,
2:01:21 your,
2:01:21 uh,
2:01:21 perspectives.
2:01:22 Um,
2:01:23 and that note,
2:01:24 I'll hand it,
2:01:25 uh,
2:01:25 over to
2:01:27 Nayun again to wrap up this,
2:01:29 uh,
2:01:29 webinar and,
2:01:30 and thanks everybody for your,
2:01:32 your inputs.
2:01:35 Thank you,
2:01:35 Robert.
2:01:36 Very good questions and responses,
2:01:38 uh,
2:01:38 of course,
2:01:38 and these questions,
2:01:39 uh,
2:01:40 that Robert uh posed,
2:01:41 uh,
2:01:41 kind of integrated some of the questions that were posed in the Q&A,
2:01:45 uh,
2:01:45 section.
2:01:46 So I hope and,
2:01:47 and,
2:01:47 I'm quite sure that our audience and perhaps even
2:01:50 our expert panelists
2:01:52 have learned a lot today.
2:01:53 I must have really enjoyed and learned
2:01:55 a lot from the discussion today.
2:01:57 Uh,
2:01:57 please note that this session is being,
2:01:59 uh,
2:02:00 has been recorded and will be available at some point next week,
2:02:03 uh,
2:02:03 on the Learning Series dedicated website.
2:02:05 If you want to revisit any of the points made during our discussion,
2:02:09 we'll post that,
2:02:10 uh,
2:02:10 website link.
2:02:14 Um,
2:02:15 and
2:02:17 As we close out this 9th session of the learning series,
2:02:20 I'd like to introduce Etienne Kuchian to give a few closing remarks.
2:02:25 Etienne works for Markets and Technology unit in the finance,
2:02:29 Competitiveness and Innovation Global Practice,
2:02:31 leads green competitiveness work at the World Bank,
2:02:34 which looks at green and resilient approaches
2:02:37 to spar industry-led growth in partner countries.
2:02:43 Etienne
2:02:56 And you might be on uh on mute.
2:03:05 Oh yes,
2:03:06 sorry.
2:03:07 There it is.
2:03:07 Uh,
2:03:08 I wanted to really thank the,
2:03:09 the,
2:03:09 the panelists and,
2:03:10 uh,
2:03:11 the moderators,
2:03:11 Felix and,
2:03:12 and Robert for,
2:03:13 um,
2:03:14 participating today and also for Nayyo and,
2:03:16 uh,
2:03:17 uh,
2:03:17 and the team for organizing the session.
2:03:20 Um,
2:03:20 I want to highlight that this is,
2:03:21 um,
2:03:22 a session that was organized with the
2:03:24 International Finance Corporation and the energy team.
2:03:27 And I think it's important because um us
2:03:30 as the finance Competitive and innovation Global Practice,
2:03:33 we're bringing together a very um climate but also competitiveness focus on,
2:03:38 on this uh webinar.
2:03:40 And as uh Sabina mentioned in the beginning,
2:03:43 this has to be private sector-led,
2:03:44 but I can see from this,
2:03:46 uh,
2:03:46 webinar
2:03:47 and also from information that we've,
2:03:49 uh,
2:03:49 experienced in,
2:03:50 in developing countries,
2:03:51 we're still quite a bit,
2:03:52 uh,
2:03:53 away from,
2:03:53 um,
2:03:54 from actually,
2:03:55 uh,
2:03:55 tilting the needle in,
2:03:56 in the direction of circular economy.
2:03:59 Um,
2:03:59 I noticed that also a lot of the solutions are there already,
2:04:02 um,
2:04:03 and,
2:04:03 but
2:04:03 from what,
2:04:04 uh,
2:04:05 you know,
2:04:05 uh,
2:04:06 Monica and Salome mentioned,
2:04:09 there's a need for further collaboration and digitalization throughout
2:04:13 the value chain so that we have enough information to
2:04:15 restructure it in a way that is more circular.
2:04:18 We can see that there's still a lot of,
2:04:20 uh,
2:04:20 you know,
2:04:21 existing methods of,
2:04:22 uh,
2:04:23 of,
2:04:23 of producing both upstream and downstream.
2:04:26 And connecting these to make a really
2:04:28 uh circular solution for the industry
2:04:30 is still,
2:04:31 uh,
2:04:32 quite a bit away.
2:04:32 I think the opportunity is humongous,
2:04:34 right?
2:04:34 I mean,
2:04:35 we're talking,
2:04:36 uh,
2:04:36 as I mentioned,
2:04:37 the,
2:04:37 the,
2:04:37 the rate of urbanization,
2:04:39 the,
2:04:39 um,
2:04:40 uh,
2:04:41 the,
2:04:41 the,
2:04:41 the construction industries,
2:04:43 uh,
2:04:44 um,
2:04:44 impact on the,
2:04:45 on the emissions.
2:04:46 Uh,
2:04:46 these are really
2:04:47 huge numbers and we're just scratching the surface in terms of what can be done.
2:04:51 Um,
2:04:52 again,
2:04:52 I'm really excited about the potential of the World Bank and the IFC have,
2:04:56 uh,
2:04:56 have in this space.
2:04:57 We're also
2:04:58 just getting started,
2:04:59 unfortunately,
2:05:00 a bit late in the game,
2:05:01 I must admit myself.
2:05:03 Um,
2:05:03 but,
2:05:04 uh,
2:05:04 learning from what has already been done and trying
2:05:06 to translate it as we've done in the session to
2:05:09 the,
2:05:09 the countries that we work,
2:05:10 there is an opportunity
2:05:12 because of the great increase in construction in some of our Countries,
2:05:15 not just make the same mistakes that have been done in terms of,
2:05:19 uh,
2:05:19 you know,
2:05:20 the embedded emissions and other types of environmental issues
2:05:23 associated with the construction industry,
2:05:25 uh,
2:05:25 and to,
2:05:25 to kind of do it better from the beginning so that
2:05:27 we don't suffer the same consequences further down the line,
2:05:30 and we have to do this hand in hand with the private,
2:05:32 the private sector,
2:05:34 the researchers,
2:05:34 the universities,
2:05:35 the academic institutions,
2:05:37 and other actors.
2:05:37 In the sector.
2:05:38 The dyna dynamism of this sector forces us all to
2:05:41 work together to come up with a common solution.
2:05:44 And uh again,
2:05:44 I'm very excited to kind of take this journey,
2:05:46 um,
2:05:47 with everyone,
2:05:48 uh,
2:05:48 here,
2:05:49 um,
2:05:49 as we move forward.
2:05:50 Um,
2:05:51 that's it from my end and thank you so much for joining.
2:05:53 Please join us for the next session,
2:05:55 uh,
2:05:55 focused on food and then eventually on also on,
2:05:58 on wood and,
2:05:59 and furniture processing.
2:06:01 Um,
2:06:01 and we,
2:06:02 yeah,
2:06:02 I look forward to,
2:06:03 to having you all there.
2:06:04 Thank you so much.
2:06:07 Thank you,
2:06:07 I did.
2:06:07 Thank you all,
2:06:08 panelist.
2:06:09 Thank you so much.
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