Circular Economy and Textiles

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00:56 Hello everyone,

00:57 my name is Z

00:59 and I'm a consultant with the Finance Competitiveness

01:02 and Innovation Global Practice at the World Bank.

01:05 Welcome to the 7th session of the World Bank's

01:08 learning series on circular economy and private sector development.

01:16 Jane,

01:16 uh,

01:17 in this session that is co-hosted with the

01:19 United Nations Conference for Trade and Development.

01:23 Typically chose the textiles and fashion

01:26 industry because it has a significant environmental footprint,

01:30 um,

01:31 contributing to 10% of global greenhouse gas and it

01:33 is the second biggest consumer of water among others,

01:36 but it also has the enormous potential to transform away

01:40 from the linear model across its entire value chain.

01:43 Throughout this webinar,

01:44 please feel free at any point to drop your questions in the Q&A

01:48 panel on this platform and we will address.

01:53 Uh,

01:53 this,

01:54 uh,

01:55 agenda,

01:56 uh,

01:56 we will have two panel sessions,

01:58 panel discussions,

01:59 uh,

02:00 a presentation,

02:01 and,

02:01 uh,

02:02 finally,

02:02 now,

02:03 without further ado,

02:04 let me introduce our open speaker.

02:07 This is about to end

02:08 the territory.

02:16 You are the foreign minister and

02:30 It's

02:35 OK,

02:36 so do you hear me?

02:36 It's OK?

02:39 OK.

02:40 So first of all,

02:41 uh,

02:41 um,

02:42 good morning,

02:43 good afternoon,

02:44 uh,

02:45 everyone.

02:46 And,

02:46 um,

02:47 first of all,

02:48 um,

02:49 I would like to,

02:50 to share with you some thoughts about,

02:52 uh,

02:52 textile

02:54 and circular economy.

02:56 As we strive to maintain and foster a healthy planet,

02:59 we need to change definitely

03:02 our business model and policies.

03:04 Therefore,

03:05 today's webinar is very timely and relevant.

03:08 The circular economy is on everyone's mind

03:12 when we talk about green recovery

03:14 and for good reasons.

03:16 If effectively implemented,

03:18 implemented,

03:18 circular economy contributed to several development objectives.

03:22 It can mitigate climate change,

03:25 open new opportunities for trade,

03:27 and create jobs,

03:29 help reduce the cost of waste disposal

03:31 in both developed and developing countries.

03:34 It is estimated that expanding the life cycle of materials in the economy

03:40 through reuse,

03:41 repurposing or recycling could reduce 33% of

03:45 the carbon dioxide emissions embedded in products.

03:49 So a circular economy approach in the textile industry are needed,

03:54 and they can have an immense impact

03:57 given the size of that industry.

04:00 The global textiles market is estimated at around $1 trillion US dollars,

04:05 and the clothing industry employs more than

04:07 300 million people along the value chain.

04:11 A key feature of the textile industry is that it's global.

04:16 Its supply chains are sourced from vast agriculture and petrochemical sectors,

04:21 and production stretches across the globe with

04:23 millions of jobs in developing countries,

04:26 most notably China,

04:27 India,

04:28 Bangladesh,

04:29 Pakistan,

04:30 Brazil,

04:30 and also Turkey.

04:33 All is just perfect?

04:35 Definitely not,

04:37 because so far the textile industry is not a good example

04:41 of how to make good use of circular economy approaches.

04:45 The fast fashion model is characterized by overproduction and overconsumption

04:51 of low cost clothes,

04:53 which are often produced under poor working conditions.

04:57 We all remember the tragedy of the Rana Plaza factory collapse in Bangladesh.

05:02 Also,

05:03 the fashion industry is a major source of pollution and waste.

05:07 Moreover,

05:08 under the guise of characterative purposes,

05:12 we are collecting old clothes for donation,

05:16 creating an illusion of solidarity and circularity,

05:19 but the reality is more complex.

05:21 A very small percentage of clothes collected are

05:25 provided as charity to people in need.

05:28 The vast majority is used for business,

05:30 and this business is big and growing.

05:34 According to some estimators,

05:35 it is worth around

05:37 $25 billion US dollars.

05:40 And most of the time this trade is unregulated.

05:44 Actually,

05:44 it is a huge business.

05:47 A key concern for many developing countries is that trade

05:50 in secondhand clothing affects the textile industry to prosper.

05:55 Several countries in East Africa have denounced this trade

05:59 as being detrimental to their national development efforts.

06:04 So ladies and gentlemen,

06:05 the linear fast fashion model,

06:07 the make,

06:07 use,

06:08 dispose,

06:09 are totally unsustainable.

06:11 The good news is that consumers,

06:14 businesses,

06:15 and regulators are starting to identify

06:19 ways to make textiles and appeal into a more efficient and less

06:24 polluting sector.

06:26 Their growing interest and application of

06:28 circular economy approaches in the textile industry

06:32 covers a broad range of aspects such as renewable and safe inputs,

06:36 increasing clothing use,

06:38 or turning used clothes into new to prolong their life cycle.

06:44 This calls for greater reuse and repair business model

06:48 to be mainstreamed and made easily accessible to consumers.

06:53 It also depends on the adoption of innovative

06:55 materials that can make textiles fulfill their purpose

06:59 without straining the environment and society in

07:01 the way the linear production systems do.

07:05 Textis are made of a variety of natural and synthetic fibers

07:10 as well as various blends

07:12 whose life cycles bring environmental and social

07:15 consequences for both producing and consuming countries.

07:19 Those include CO2 emissions embedded in materials,

07:22 health impacts from synthetic dyes,

07:25 and toxic metal

07:27 used in their production,

07:28 as well as ocean plastics pollution,

07:31 especially linked to polyester and other plastic fibers.

07:35 UNCTAD is active,

07:37 active in this area through the

07:39 Sustainable Manufacturing and Environmental Pollution Program,

07:42 which is supported by the UK Foreign Commonwealth and Development Office.

07:48 This program focuses on ways to

07:50 reduce manufacturing pollution in developing countries,

07:53 including in the textile industry.

07:56 In our work on the circular economy,

07:58 we take an encompassing approach.

08:02 We facilitate discussion and activities seeking to add value from

08:06 waste streams.

08:08 We foster collaborative economy sectors.

08:11 We examine innovate business models.

08:13 We raise consumer awareness and encourage behavioral shifts.

08:18 In today's session on circular economy and private sector development,

08:23 I really encourage the presenters to enlighten

08:27 the audience with practical examples on how circularity

08:31 can be upscaled in the various dimensions.

08:34 the textile business

08:36 and also how policymakers can help

08:39 promote and support concretely

08:42 this necessary transformation.

08:44 So I wish you and I wish us

08:46 fruitful discussion and exchanges,

08:48 and I thank you for your attention.

08:52 Thank you so much,

08:52 Ms.

08:52 Duran,

08:53 for your remarks.

08:55 And for now we are going to transition to uh our first presentation of this webinar,

09:01 uh,

09:01 and I would like to introduce our presenter,

09:04 Mr.

09:07 To make program,

09:09 Alan McCar Foundation,

09:11 uh,

09:13 it is a program seems to be a truly disruptive force within the industry

09:16 to redesign the fashion industry based on circular economy principles.

09:20 So,

09:20 uh,

09:21 very excited to hear from Francois.

09:25 To you,

09:25 Francois,

09:26 thanks.

09:33 Thank you very much.

09:35 I hope um

09:36 you can hear me OK,

09:38 um,

09:39 and thank you very much for having me today.

09:41 So

09:42 I'm just going to share some thoughts

09:45 on

09:46 circular fashion and why it's relevant and

09:49 as Ms.

09:50 Duran said,

09:52 the currently our economy is today extremely

09:55 wasteful,

09:56 polluting.

09:57 When we make new products,

09:58 it means we need new materials.

10:00 We often only think about recycling at the end of pipes,

10:04 so it's very much like a sort of cure for a problem that's already existing.

10:08 And waste is extremely high within

10:12 the economy.

10:14 And waste is not just what we throw away after using it,

10:17 but it's also what we fail to use at its full potential.

10:21 All the cars that are parked all the time,

10:24 office buildings that are empty most of the time,

10:26 it's all these materials that we mobilize

10:29 and fail to use at their full potential.

10:34 And so we believe with the McArthur that a circular economy is a

10:40 framework to find systemic solutions that help tackle some of the

10:46 global challenges,

10:47 as Ms.

10:47 Jones said,

10:48 like climate change,

10:49 like biodiversity loss,

10:51 like waste and pollution.

10:53 And a circular economy is

10:56 based on three principles

10:59 which are all driven by design,

11:01 which means that for each of them we need to think upstream.

11:04 We need to think

11:05 very early on about how to apply them.

11:08 But also what's important to know is that a circular economy to work needs to be

11:12 based on renewable energy and needs to increasingly

11:14 adopt renewable materials so that they can flow

11:17 over and over within the economy.

11:19 So those three principles are first,

11:21 to

11:21 eliminate waste and pollution.

11:24 And

11:25 which basically means thinking from the beginning

11:29 about how do we design businesses and products

11:32 so they won't end up as waste and so they won't cause pollution

11:36 in

11:37 the manufacturing process but also

11:39 when they are being used.

11:42 In fashion,

11:43 it's,

11:44 for example,

11:44 known that 80% of the emissions of a product are decided at

11:50 the design stage.

11:52 The second principle of a circular academy is to keep products and materials in use.

11:56 That basically means finding

11:59 new business models that help

12:01 and ensure that those products can be used as much as possible,

12:04 like reuse,

12:05 repair,

12:06 resale.

12:07 Like recycling.

12:10 And finally,

12:11 the third principle is to regenerate natural systems.

12:14 So if you take agricultural practices,

12:15 for example,

12:16 it's finding practices that

12:18 not only

12:19 limit

12:20 the depletion of soil health,

12:22 but actually rebuild it over time.

12:25 So the soil is

12:26 enriched every crop cycle.

12:31 Now what does that mean for fashion?

12:33 How can a circular economy be applied to fashion?

12:35 Well,

12:36 as

12:37 Ms.

12:37 Jerome just said,

12:37 the fashion industry is a very

12:39 traditional example of a linear industry.

12:43 It takes

12:44 a lot of virgin resources

12:46 to make into products that are used less and less,

12:49 linking to overproduction,

12:51 and most of those products will be discarded to go into landfill or incineration

12:56 because a lot of those products use synthetic fiber.

12:59 A lot of them will shed

13:00 microfibers that will end up contaminating

13:03 oceans,

13:04 freshwater sources,

13:05 and a tiny,

13:06 tiny fraction of all those materials will be able to be taken back

13:10 and put back into the system.

13:13 So very now.

13:15 And what we did at the foundation is work with

13:18 a vast number of organizations from across the industry to create a

13:22 vision for an industry that can thrive over the long term,

13:25 for a circular economy for fashion.

13:27 And what we brought it back to is to 3 key elements that need to change.

13:33 The first one is

13:34 clothing needs to be used more.

13:36 The second one is clothing needs to be made to be made again.

13:39 And the third one is it needs to be made from safe and recycled or renewable inputs.

13:46 So I'm showing you a few examples of

13:49 what that can mean in practice.

13:52 Use more as Duro said as an increased interest from customers

13:58 to actually adopt new business models that infinite increase clothing use

14:03 like resale,

14:04 so the real wheel is.

14:05 Example from the US,

14:06 we've got great examples in Europe with STR Collective,

14:09 all of those companies have global operation.

14:12 You've got,

14:13 you've got a multiplication of secondhand platforms at the moment.

14:17 A lot of brands also

14:18 launching their secondhand offering.

14:20 That market is growing very quickly,

14:22 showing a strong interest from customers

14:25 and actually

14:26 helping

14:28 to significantly increase

14:30 the utilization

14:32 of

14:32 clothing,

14:33 accessories,

14:34 and products.

14:35 And the second example we have is

14:38 from the renewal workshop.

14:39 So their model is really interesting.

14:41 The tech products that

14:43 are not good enough to be kept on the market either they fail

14:48 tests like

14:49 before commercialization or

14:52 their secondhand products being sent back to companies.

14:55 And they refurbish those products so they can be put back on the market,

15:00 so they work,

15:00 for example,

15:01 with costs.

15:03 Which is part of the H&M Group

15:05 to actually take some of the products that had some

15:09 quality issues

15:10 in order to

15:12 repair them and

15:13 to put them

15:14 back on the market,

15:15 so they are really able to

15:17 increase the durability of the products and make sure they can be

15:20 kept in use

15:21 for longer.

15:22 So those are really

15:23 two practical examples of what's happening in the economy

15:26 so that

15:27 clothing is used more.

15:30 The second example is like the second

15:33 area of our vision and area of action is

15:36 make sure that clothing is made to be made again and products

15:40 are made to be made again across the fashion industry,

15:43 and that basically means

15:44 from the outset thinking about how can these products be recovered.

15:50 And be recycled

15:52 when it stopped being used.

15:54 So can it be easily disassembled,

15:56 or are the materials that are being used compatible

16:00 with recycling

16:02 technologies?

16:03 But also,

16:04 what are some infrastructures

16:07 and

16:07 strategies that exist to ensure that those products are effectively collected,

16:12 because it's not good enough to make products that can be recycled.

16:15 What's really important to make sure that

16:16 they are collected and can be sent to the

16:18 appropriate end of.

16:20 Two great examples here.

16:22 The first one from Adidas,

16:23 who took

16:24 years of innovation to create a shoe that's made 100% from

16:29 the same polymer,

16:30 the same material,

16:32 and

16:32 which

16:33 means that when that shoe is worn out,

16:36 they can get it back,

16:37 shred it,

16:38 and put it back into a new shoe.

16:40 Technology today allows them to take approximately 10% of

16:43 an old shoe to put in a new shoe,

16:45 so it's not perfect yet.

16:46 But it's a good innovation to ensure that over time they can increase that content.

16:52 Now the real issue is how do you make sure that you can collect them.

16:55 So they've made,

16:55 for example,

16:56 a partnership with

16:57 a company called Stuffsta.

16:59 Which is an app based on smartphones helping people to order collection

17:05 when they stop being that good,

17:06 when they stop wearing that shoe,

17:09 so it can be easier and more convenient

17:11 for their customer to actually send stuff back.

17:14 Napa Pri took a different approach,

17:16 so they created a winter jacket

17:18 made 100% of nylon,

17:20 so same,

17:22 everything in that jacket is made of nylon.

17:24 A lot of it actually comes from real nylon,

17:27 a recycled nylon from

17:29 Econ.

17:31 Needed tons of innovation to make sure that the

17:33 insulation layer of the jacket would work with nylon,

17:37 which was the first,

17:38 that the buttons and stuff could be made in nylon,

17:41 made sure that all that could be sent to recycling when it's being collected,

17:44 and what they did was actually offer a buyback

17:47 option to the people who bought the jacket,

17:49 but you can only activate it

17:51 after 2 years so that they ensure that the jacket is kept for at least 2 years.

17:56 This should probably be kept even longer,

17:58 but um a good example of how they can also think about not

18:02 only the product but also the collection system on the side of it.

18:07 And the third

18:09 area of the vision,

18:09 the 3rd area of action,

18:11 is to ensure that materials are from

18:13 safe

18:14 inputs,

18:15 which basically means using safe chemistry,

18:17 so making clothing cause no harm to

18:21 either the people who make the clothes,

18:22 but also to the environment

18:26 and to the wearers,

18:28 but also that materials come from recycled or renewables.

18:31 Sources

18:32 and here are

18:34 two examples that we got.

18:36 The first one is

18:37 Stella McCartney did

18:39 a clothing line using recycled cashmere,

18:42 so taking cashmere from both pre-production but also post-consumer,

18:48 shredding it and weaving it,

18:50 reweaving it in a new

18:54 sweater.

18:56 And on the other side it's Wrangler,

18:59 amongst one of the many companies starting to investigate

19:03 the potential of growing cotton in a regenerative way,

19:06 that is

19:07 finding strategies to grow cotton in a way that can help rebuild soil health,

19:13 while cotton in a traditional way relies

19:15 very heavily on pesticides and fertilizer,

19:18 so quite a significant departure from traditional ways of making cotton.

19:24 And

19:24 an example of how you can bring all those ideas together is a project we conducted

19:30 called the genes redesign where we created guidelines

19:33 to create genes that incorporate high ability

19:37 materials that are organic or in transition phasing out a

19:40 lot of chemicals and processes that are hazardous for both

19:45 the workers and the environment.

19:48 But also looking at the recyclability and ease of disassembly of the

19:52 products and finally looking at how to ensure some level of traceability

19:57 so those genes can be easily identified

20:00 for customers but also so that collectors and recyclers can easily understand.

20:05 That those jeans have been made with certain criteria and can

20:09 be either used for a very long time or when they can't

20:13 be recycled effectively.

20:15 Here is a list of all the companies

20:16 that have committed to put volumes of their production

20:20 in line with the guidelines on the market before May this year.

20:25 You can check on our website.

20:26 We've

20:27 put a note to tell you when each of those companies will

20:31 put their jeans on the market.

20:33 And

20:34 that's it for me.

20:39 Thank you so much,

20:39 Francois,

20:40 for that great presentation and uh great timing as well.

20:44 Um,

20:46 and now we will move to

20:47 the

20:49 The first panel of the

20:51 of the webinar

20:53 and I'm just going to share my screen so you can see the pan.

20:58 Uh,

20:58 and

20:59 I will also introduce our moderator

21:02 for panel one which will focus a lot on the redesigning of the value chain,

21:07 focusing more on the upstream,

21:09 um,

21:10 and bringing questions on materials,

21:12 production and design,

21:13 uh.

21:14 So our moderator for panel one is

21:17 Professor Lisa Emerson,

21:19 and she's a professor of Environmental Science in the Environment

21:23 and Geography department at University of York

21:25 and she's also an affiliated researcher

21:27 at the Stockholm Environmental Institute.

21:30 Uh,

21:31 Lisa has over 20 years of experience in

21:33 the field of air pollution and climate change,

21:36 and between 2019 and 2020,

21:38 she was also the principal investigator of a research study

21:42 mapping manufacturing pollution hotspots,

21:44 uh,

21:45 as part of the sustainable manufacturing and Environmental pollution Program,

21:49 uh,

21:49 which was mentioned by Ms.

21:50 Duran in her opening remarks,

21:52 and this program uh focuses as well on the textiles industry.

21:56 So,

21:56 um,

21:57 Professor Emerson,

21:58 I welcome you to the floor.

22:03 OK,

22:03 thank you very much for the introduction.

22:06 Um,

22:06 and it's,

22:07 uh,

22:07 now my turn to introduce the other members on this panel.

22:11 Uh,

22:12 so first of all,

22:12 we have Khalid Mahmood

22:15 Russo,

22:15 who has over 40 years of corporate experience in textiles and clothing,

22:19 food and development sectors.

22:21 Um,

22:21 currently he is the executive director of Master Textile Mills in Pakistan,

22:26 leading a textile company engaged in exports of apparel and work with brick.

22:31 Second on the panel,

22:33 we have,

22:33 uh,

22:34 Jenny Fredriksdotter,

22:35 uh,

22:36 who has over 20 years of experience from the fashion industry working with buying,

22:40 production,

22:40 and sourcing for companies like H&M,

22:43 Gina Trickott in Europe and Asia.

22:46 Uh,

22:46 Jenny's also been working with sustainability and fashion for more

22:49 than 10 years and joined Renew Cell in 2017,

22:53 uh,

22:53 where she's part of the management team

22:55 in Renew Cell working with textile brand partners

22:57 towards closing the loop in the fashion industry.

23:01 And then finally,

23:02 on the panel,

23:03 we also have Amor Paul Havandana,

23:06 who has quickly become one of Thailand's

23:08 most influential green voices through his work

23:11 on turning landfill waste into sustainable material.

23:14 His company Moreloop,

23:16 co-founded with Tamawan Vedrachayan,

23:19 is an online platform that takes surplus fabric from garment and textile factories

23:23 and offers it to small businesses to purchase at an affordable price.

23:27 And to date,

23:28 Morloop has upcycled more than 20,000 kg of surplus fabric

23:32 and prevented the release of more than 300,000 kg of carbon dioxide.

23:37 So what I want to do is encourage people,

23:40 uh,

23:40 to be putting questions in the chats,

23:42 but I'm also obviously going to be putting questions to our panelists.

23:46 And I think just so that,

23:48 uh,

23:48 the audience can get a better idea of,

23:50 uh,

23:51 the companies and,

23:52 and the work that the panelists are doing themselves,

23:54 um,

23:55 it would be good if each of the panelists could,

23:58 uh,

23:59 briefly summarize

24:00 the businesses that you represent.

24:02 And if we start off with,

24:03 uh,

24:04 Khalid,

24:05 if that's OK.

24:07 Uh yeah,

24:08 thank you very much.

24:10 Uh,

24:10 my name is Khalid Mahmood.

24:11 I come from Pakistan.

24:12 I'm working with a company,

24:13 as they're told,

24:15 Master Textile Mills.

24:16 It's a vertically composite setup,

24:18 meaning by we have our own spinning,

24:20 weaving,

24:20 denim,

24:21 and then the dye processing and garmenting also.

24:24 Uh,

24:24 we are about $100 million US dollar company and primarily we are selling

24:27 our garments into Europe and America and a couple of other countries also.

24:31 And then fabric,

24:32 we specialize into the work there and the bottom tier fabric companies.

24:35 Thank you.

24:36 OK,

24:37 thank you very much.

24:38 That's very much on the production,

24:39 um,

24:39 end of things.

24:41 Uh,

24:41 and then next if we have Jenny.

24:46 Yes,

24:47 hello,

24:48 um,

24:49 from Stockholm.

24:50 I'm in Renewal headquarters here in Stockholm and it's very empty at the moment.

24:55 We are most of us working from home

24:58 due to the situation in the world.

24:59 Um,

25:00 so I'm the circular business manager in Renewal and we are a sustained tech company.

25:06 From Sweden

25:07 working in

25:09 recycling of cellulose-based textiles.

25:12 We have a small plant running here in Sweden and

25:15 we are just about

25:17 to build,

25:17 or we have actually started to build our second

25:20 plant that will be much bigger in scale.

25:23 So I work closely with brands and textile producers who want to integrate our new

25:28 fibers into their products.

25:31 OK,

25:31 thanks ever so much,

25:32 Jenny.

25:32 And then,

25:33 uh,

25:33 finally,

25:33 a more poll.

25:37 Everyone,

25:38 my name is Amopo.

25:38 I'm a CEO and co-founder of Moloop.

25:41 Um,

25:42 we are an online

25:43 marketplace for surplus fabric

25:46 from Thailand.

25:47 Um,

25:48 we are.

25:51 As we have collected over

25:54 300 tons of surplus fabrics

25:57 in various.

26:08 Uh,

26:08 I'm more,

26:08 we are not hearing you,

26:11 uh,

26:11 no.

26:11 OK.

26:13 Hopefully it'll be better if the video off,

26:15 but we can hear you now.

26:17 OK,

26:17 great.

26:19 Um,

26:19 so,

26:20 um,

26:21 yeah,

26:21 so we are,

26:22 uh,

26:22 Molo is an online marketplace for surplus fabric.

26:25 We are a young

26:26 startup from Thailand.

26:28 And through our marketplace we have been able to collect over

26:32 300 tons

26:34 of surplus fabrics

26:36 in various shapes and sizes

26:38 and from 10 yards,

26:41 as small as 10 yards to 1,000+ yards.

26:44 So now we have 300,

26:46 3500 different types of fabrics

26:49 and

26:50 Now that we have collected all of these surplus fabrics,

26:54 we turn them into

26:56 different products

26:58 for corporates

26:59 as well as our own small brand

27:01 and as well as pushing these surplus fabrics

27:04 to smaller SMEs,

27:06 so having the market mechanism working.

27:10 And we are

27:11 um experienced the early growth stage

27:14 at the moment,

27:16 yeah.

27:17 Thank you.

27:18 OK,

27:19 thanks ever so much,

27:20 I'm awful.

27:21 So,

27:21 um,

27:22 hopefully that gives a good indication we have really quite a diverse panel,

27:25 um,

27:26 here who have expertise

27:27 and the production in in new technologies,

27:30 and then in sort of different ways of recycling or upcycling.

27:34 Materials and textiles.

27:36 Uh,

27:36 I think it would be useful,

27:37 and we've seen from that previous talk,

27:39 um,

27:40 how

27:41 research very clearly shows that linear production,

27:44 which has been a large part of the textiles and fashion industry,

27:49 um,

27:49 causes pollution at the production end of the line and,

27:52 and,

27:53 uh,

27:53 waste problems at the disposal end

27:55 of the life cycle of those products.

27:57 So I just wonder if each of the panel members,

27:59 I'll go around in a slightly different order just to shake things up a little bit.

28:02 But if you could just give us an idea of what you think are the main sustainability

28:07 issues or problems that are associated,

28:09 um,

28:09 with textiles that your business is,

28:12 is really trying to focus on to improve.

28:14 So,

28:15 if I could maybe just go to Jenny first with that question.

28:19 Yes,

28:20 thank you.

28:22 Of course,

28:23 as was shown in the

28:25 picture by Francois earlier,

28:27 only 1% of the textiles that are being

28:30 produced is going back into new textiles again.

28:33 This is the area that we want to address with renew cells,

28:36 so we want to increase

28:38 the volumes of textile waste going back into new fibers

28:43 and being put back into new garments and textile products,

28:48 so.

28:49 eliminate

28:50 the waste stream as much as possible,

28:54 creating new products without using virgin raw materials.

28:58 And

28:59 could you just give us an idea of

29:00 what the biggest challenges associated with achieving that?

29:04 Yes,

29:05 of course,

29:06 we have several challenges,

29:08 but one,

29:08 of course,

29:09 is that there are many types of products,

29:11 many materials,

29:13 mixed materials,

29:15 so different technologies are needed to recycle all

29:19 the different types of textiles there is.

29:22 And of course there is also a logistic challenge that

29:26 There are limited possibilities for recycling today,

29:30 and they are not

29:32 necessarily in the same place as the waste,

29:34 as the waste is scattered all over the world with consumers in the factories

29:40 and also in the in the areas for landfill.

29:43 So of course there is a logistics challenge to put the waste

29:47 into the recycling possibility.

29:50 Plants.

29:52 Yeah,

29:52 so there's,

29:53 it's almost a bit of a transport issue as well in that case,

29:56 and it can be,

29:58 it could be,

30:00 yeah,

30:00 of course,

30:01 but we are,

30:01 we are,

30:02 it's early days for the recycling industry of textiles.

30:05 We have just started,

30:06 but they succeeded quite well with paper,

30:09 glass,

30:09 and so on.

30:10 So I hope we can make the same journey

30:12 with textiles.

30:14 OK,

30:14 that's excellent.

30:15 And then I think if I can bring um a more pole in.

30:18 Uh,

30:19 I,

30:19 I understand Amopo,

30:20 your sort of strategy is a little bit more sort of upcycling as opposed to recycling.

30:24 Could you just give us an idea of,

30:28 um,

30:28 how that is really gonna help in terms of moving towards a circular economy?

30:35 Our vision for our company is to make the circular economy a reality,

30:39 so

30:41 we try to make this

30:45 surplus

30:46 fabric movement

30:48 into

30:50 a real business that is

30:51 scalable

30:53 using the

30:54 digital tech

30:57 and the online platform to help to move this forward

31:01 and um.

31:02 At the moment we are

31:04 only focusing on the fabric industrial surpluses

31:09 that are stuck inside everyone's

31:12 factory.

31:14 And by doing this we are helping to

31:19 reduce the redundancy of producing

31:22 virgin materials

31:24 um

31:24 once we have scaled up a lot more.

31:27 But at the moment

31:29 we are

31:30 seeing that

31:32 there is a pain point

31:34 within

31:35 this industry in Thailand.

31:38 The first point is that

31:39 there is a pain point of the factory

31:41 have to manage all of these

31:43 redundancies and actually they are stuck inside

31:47 everyone's factory.

31:48 So we are relieving everybody

31:50 with this

31:51 and at the same time,

31:52 the smaller SMEs,

31:53 they can get access

31:54 to all of these quality fabrics that are lying around available,

31:59 and nobody is really using or doing anything with them

32:03 that efficiently.

32:05 At the same time,

32:06 these fabrics have their own shelf life as well.

32:10 So if

32:11 it,

32:12 you know,

32:12 in,

32:13 in,

32:13 in maybe 5 or 10 years,

32:15 they are no longer functional,

32:18 they have to throw it away in landfill anyway.

32:20 So why don't we map all of these surpluses out

32:25 and get

32:26 them all circulating back into the industry and

32:29 make everybody

32:33 be able to access all of these fabric.

32:34 So I,

32:35 I hope that

32:37 one day

32:38 our circular model

32:41 can go along with the linear model,

32:43 um,

32:43 find the right equilibrium,

32:45 so

32:46 we are like.

32:47 We're like a Pac-Man,

32:49 you know,

32:50 so the linear economy works very fast,

32:53 right?

32:53 They have a lot of wastage coming out

32:55 and we are like Pac-Man just

32:58 going,

32:58 you know,

32:59 collecting all of this waste

33:01 and putting them back into

33:02 the most

33:04 efficient use possible.

33:07 OK,

33:08 that's great.

33:08 And maybe just sort of following up on a comment that Jenny made.

33:11 I mean,

33:11 do you still,

33:12 do you have similar sort of

33:13 issues in terms of the logistics of transporting these

33:16 materials around?

33:17 Is that,

33:17 is that a problem for you?

33:21 At the moment we are very local based.

33:25 We only have a couple of international clients

33:28 and the most that we can do,

33:30 let's say we have a

33:32 client from Singapore

33:34 and she has the manufacturing base in Cambodia.

33:36 There is a logistic

33:38 that we can use,

33:40 but at the moment we keep everything pretty local

33:43 and I myself drive.

33:46 To,

33:48 to do the logistics for all of these fabric,

33:51 yes,

33:52 and um we try to find

33:54 the most efficient

33:55 way

33:56 to ship all of this around

33:58 and that um.

34:00 It's a challenge,

34:02 I think when we scale up,

34:03 but at the moment we have found

34:06 that logistics is not

34:08 the biggest challenge for us at the moment.

34:11 OK,

34:12 yeah.

34:12 So we will come back,

34:13 I think some availability,

34:15 um,

34:15 issues later on in the session.

34:18 Yeah,

34:18 that's interesting.

34:19 So,

34:20 so we focused a little bit there on,

34:21 on the kind of,

34:22 uh,

34:23 you know,

34:23 the products once they've been produced.

34:26 Um,

34:26 obviously there are issues.

34:27 Is in production of those products.

34:29 And

34:30 Khaled,

34:31 would you be able to give us an idea

34:33 of,

34:33 you know,

34:34 some of the ways in which your company has been trying to reduce the pollution,

34:38 um,

34:39 and make,

34:39 uh,

34:40 the production more efficient

34:42 in textiles?

34:45 Yeah,

34:45 my company is very much up to the challenge,

34:48 which we are all facing.

34:49 In fact,

34:50 as explained in the earlier presentation also that circular economy has

34:55 two different aspects as far as the,

34:58 America.

34:58 The consumption side is concerned.

35:00 They are looking at it differently,

35:02 as it was explained in the earlier presentation also.

35:05 My company or in the South Asia or the

35:08 all the companies who are on the manufacturing side,

35:10 we are having a different kind of challenges altogether.

35:13 So

35:14 the traditional economy has been basically made use

35:17 and disposed basis it has been operating.

35:20 And now that we are working and we are trying to move or graduate.

35:25 Into a circular economy.

35:27 So in circular economy,

35:29 basically it's a huge kind of a

35:31 mindset shift.

35:33 It's a kind of you have to shift that mindset

35:36 from the linear economy

35:38 to the circular economy where we are focusing,

35:40 make,

35:41 use,

35:41 recycle,

35:42 reuse.

35:43 Now in this.

35:45 There are 3 basic principles we are focusing as a company.

35:48 Number 1 is designing out on the waste and the pollution factors.

35:51 2,

35:53 how to keep the products and materials eco-friendly and reusable.

35:56 And then,

35:57 of course,

35:57 regenerating

35:58 the natural systems and all that.

36:00 Now if you look at these things,

36:01 these are 4 or 5 major areas our company is basically focusing.

36:05 One is basically the water recycling and depletion.

36:08 That is one very major area.

36:11 in the South Asian countries also and the other countries

36:14 also in Pakistan particularly we are water stressed countries also,

36:18 and the traditional technologies of the economies of

36:21 the textiles which we have been using,

36:22 we have been basically

36:24 using a lot of water,

36:25 and most of this water untreated is being disposed of also.

36:29 So now that the awareness is there,

36:31 that the brands are insisting for that also.

36:33 So the leading companies have already started working on this.

36:36 That we have the water treatment plant now.

36:38 Almost I know that all the leading Pakistani brands

36:41 are making some investment during the last 2 years or

36:45 during the next 1 1.5 years,

36:47 including my own company,

36:48 a massive investment in the water treatment.

36:51 And all that.

36:51 Now this is in water treatment.

36:53 We are going for the water conservation also

36:55 we are going for the recycling also.

36:58 We are going for the reharvesting the water as well.

37:01 Now the next point comes basically the energy.

37:03 Energy is we are trying to focus more on the conservation side also,

37:07 and from then we are moving on to the renewable energy sources also

37:12 in which most of the companies,

37:13 including my company also,

37:15 we are moving on to the solar

37:17 now.

37:17 The next point that comes in what kind of material are being used.

37:22 So we are trying that most of the brands are also partnered with that,

37:26 that we should be focusing on the

37:28 materials.

37:29 Which are more sustainable and reducing the waste

37:32 and as Aupo was saying that trying to reuse the wastages,

37:36 the leftover fabrics,

37:37 and all that

37:38 in a way that they can be,

37:40 I mean,

37:40 used in the proper manner also.

37:42 So that leads us to the next point that the,

37:45 uh,

37:45 the environment sustainability,

37:46 that includes air,

37:48 that includes water,

37:49 that includes energy,

37:50 that other kind of wastages also.

37:52 And then,

37:54 uh,

37:54 with all this.

37:55 The corporate social responsibility which traditionally we used to have,

37:58 it was more focused on the labor,

38:00 which was more focused on the environment only.

38:03 Now with all these things together,

38:05 we are having renewed and enhanced scope of the corporate social responsibility.

38:10 So that is basically what my company is focusing and most of the

38:14 manufacturing companies are focusing as well.

38:17 OK,

38:18 that's,

38:18 uh,

38:19 there's an awful lot of stuff,

38:20 um,

38:20 going on,

38:21 Cain.

38:21 I think you,

38:22 you've done a really good job at,

38:23 uh,

38:24 uh,

38:24 describing a lot of that.

38:25 Could I just,

38:26 um,

38:27 obviously within,

38:28 uh,

38:29 in particular in South,

38:30 uh,

38:31 uh,

38:31 South Asia and Southeast Asia,

38:33 um,

38:33 there are various different sizes of,

38:35 um,

38:36 uh,

38:36 textile manufacturing industry.

38:38 And my,

38:40 my knowledge would suggest that it,

38:41 it It becomes more and less difficult for companies to be bringing in these,

38:46 uh,

38:46 cleaner production,

38:47 uh,

38:47 technologies dependent a little bit on their size.

38:50 Could you just give us an idea of

38:53 how extensive across the whole manufacturing sector,

38:56 sort of,

38:57 uh,

38:57 more renewable technologies

38:59 are,

38:59 and if there are ways in which there can be some sort of,

39:03 uh,

39:03 technology transfer,

39:03 if you like,

39:04 across

39:05 different companies.

39:07 Your comment is very valid.

39:08 I highly appreciate that you raised this point.

39:12 Uh,

39:13 to the front,

39:14 uh,

39:14 well,

39:15 I mean,

39:15 we have three major kinds of companies.

39:17 One of the larger companies,

39:18 uh,

39:19 which have the larger financial muscles also,

39:21 they have access to the capital also.

39:24 So,

39:24 I mean,

39:24 they operate differently than medium size and the

39:27 small sized companies which are operating differently.

39:30 So as far as the major companies or the larger companies are concerned,

39:33 yes,

39:33 I mean,

39:34 the way I explained,

39:35 most of them,

39:35 they are operating on the basis of that.

39:37 And I know my counterparts in India and Bangladesh

39:40 and Sri Lanka also they are more or less,

39:43 we are in the same league,

39:44 but the problem is basically to the medium and small sized enterprises

39:48 because medium and small sized enterprises.

39:51 They are so usually strained and we are strained on the financial resources

39:55 and strained on the financial resources,

39:57 so focused on their survival and doing the business

40:00 and putting all the pieces together to surviving,

40:03 so they don't have basically a kind of a financial resource even if they want to.

40:07 And

40:08 number 2,

40:08 their business is usually so competitive that survival is

40:12 such a great priority for them that most of them,

40:15 they are unable to actually go for that also.

40:17 And the client kind of customers which they have,

40:20 usually those customers is a different mix than the major companies.

40:24 So with medium size and the smaller size,

40:27 the challenges are different.

40:29 But I think now there has to be kind of a

40:33 reshaping of the industry is coming up also that

40:36 like the governments are now coming in,

40:38 they are focusing more on the untreated water should not be disposed of.

40:42 They are focusing on

40:44 various kinds of environmental laws and all that,

40:47 so I think the industry

40:49 is moving into kind of a thing where they have to either

40:52 they should be clustered,

40:54 they should be housed into the industrial zones,

40:56 and then they can have a joint on the shared facilities of like water treatment,

41:02 renewable energy sources,

41:04 and as far as the compliance cost is concerned.

41:06 The thing is all these things look very nice.

41:08 I mean from the fire side,

41:10 we keep receiving a long.

41:12 of compliances and all fancy kind of

41:14 logics as well,

41:16 but at the end of the day,

41:17 compliance or making all these things according to those requirements,

41:21 it requires a huge capital cost as well.

41:24 It requires a mindset change,

41:26 training of the people,

41:27 and so on and so forth.

41:28 So I think they're

41:29 the larger sized companies,

41:31 they are doing fair.

41:32 But as far as the medium and the small sized companies are concerned,

41:35 unfortunately I think they

41:37 yet are not on the bandwagon as such.

41:39 They are not yet on the wave.

41:42 OK,

41:42 yeah,

41:42 I think that those are very well made points.

41:44 And I think it's something,

41:45 you know,

41:45 that we need,

41:46 we need to bear in mind as consumers that we might be expecting,

41:50 uh,

41:50 greater sustainability

41:52 in the products that we're consuming,

41:53 but that comes at some cost to,

41:56 doesn't it?

41:56 And that needs to be considered as well.

41:59 OK,

41:59 so,

42:00 moving um back to sort of thinking a little bit about recycling,

42:04 um,

42:04 rates in clothes,

42:06 um,

42:06 if I can maybe come back to Jenny.

42:08 Uh,

42:09 so I think it was mentioned earlier,

42:10 um,

42:11 in this session that the recycling rates of clothes is,

42:14 is quite dismal.

42:15 It stands at less than 1%.

42:17 Um,

42:17 and from the perspective of a post-consumer fabric recycler such as yourself,

42:22 is it time for the industry to fundamentally

42:24 reconsider the way it blends different materials,

42:27 as well as the design and manufacture

42:29 of clothing?

42:30 What do you

42:31 envision should be a desirable template for the manufacturing

42:34 of fabric so that recyclability at the end of life

42:37 is optimized?

42:39 So,

42:39 quite a substantial question there,

42:40 Jenny,

42:41 but

42:41 What are your thoughts on that?

42:43 Yes,

42:45 of course,

42:45 if all designs and the designs of products and fabrics

42:51 and other materials would be designed with the end of life

42:55 in mind,

42:57 using or making only products that

43:01 can be recycled.

43:04 It would make a huge difference.

43:07 I'm not sure that the industry is ready to go that far

43:11 yet,

43:12 so we have to continue to develop the recycling industry to suit

43:18 what the

43:19 consumers and

43:21 the brands want to make also,

43:23 but of course,

43:25 mindful

43:26 design

43:27 would help.

43:29 For us,

43:29 we are trying to make our technology better by optimizing it,

43:34 and we will be able to

43:36 accept the wider range of products and the materials in our coming plant,

43:42 but we are still focusing on the cellulose-based textiles,

43:45 but

43:46 there is a lot happening in the recycling industry both for us and for

43:51 Other companies

43:52 doing similar things.

43:54 OK,

43:55 and you,

43:55 you referred there to mindful design.

43:58 How might that be made to happen?

44:02 Yes,

44:03 of course.

44:04 But I think

44:06 more knowledge would help.

44:08 Uh,

44:09 the more information designers and brands have about

44:12 the possibilities of making circular and sustainable product,

44:16 it would help.

44:18 So,

44:18 I'm happy to see that this is more and more

44:20 integrated now in educations for the design and textile professionals.

44:25 So this is a subject.

44:26 When I was a student,

44:27 this was not

44:28 touched at all,

44:29 but now it's getting

44:31 into

44:33 All the education,

44:34 so students are learning about the possibilities

44:37 and the responsibilities of being a designer and

44:41 working in the textile industry.

44:43 So I think this is a good

44:44 first step to

44:46 create awareness and knowledge about

44:49 the possibilities and the responsibilities.

44:53 Yeah,

44:53 so I think that that really nicely emphasizes

44:55 the need for change right the way along,

44:57 and the sort of production and manufacturing process.

45:00 Um,

45:00 so I'm just gonna come to Armorpole for one sort of final question,

45:04 and then I think I might start to look at the,

45:06 I can see that there's some questions coming in from the audience as well.

45:09 So if I encourage the panelists to have a look at that too.

45:12 Um,

45:13 but Amorpole,

45:13 if I could just sort of,

45:15 uh,

45:15 move to you,

45:16 so obviously recycling is one option,

45:18 uh,

45:18 but I think what you're a bit more concerned about is,

45:20 is upcycling.

45:22 Um,

45:22 could you describe

45:24 to us briefly just how Morloop came to discover the opportunity to utilize,

45:28 to upcycle

45:29 surplus fabrics in the market,

45:31 and

45:31 how large do you think this opportunity is,

45:34 um,

45:34 and what sort of steps do entrepreneurs like yourself

45:38 perhaps need to,

45:39 to take to be able to apply this kind of method in other geographies,

45:43 uh,

45:44 to take advantage of the opportunity?

45:46 Sure,

45:47 thank you,

45:48 great,

45:48 great question,

45:49 actually,

45:50 for a startup,

45:51 um,

45:51 we,

45:52 we have to start looking at the opportunity

45:55 so that we can uh

45:58 start uh see that there is a potential for scaling,

46:00 so that is the first thing that we actually look at

46:04 and our business is actually comes from two sides,

46:07 the pain side and the passion side.

46:09 Um,

46:10 the paint size is,

46:11 uh,

46:11 from my co-founder who is a 2nd generation garment manufacturer,

46:16 so she has the paint of the surplus fabrics.

46:18 She sells her fabric,

46:20 um,

46:21 every day,

46:22 and she knows these are good quality,

46:23 but once the,

46:25 uh,

46:26 clothes is finished

46:27 production,

46:28 this just automatically becomes waste

46:31 and she cannot,

46:33 she doesn't want to sell this

46:34 as waste price,

46:35 so she kept it

46:37 in her factory.

46:38 And

46:39 a lot of

46:40 factories actually

46:42 have the same practice.

46:44 I mean

46:45 there are secondary market for this fabric,

46:47 sure,

46:48 but

46:48 actually we have found

46:50 that in Thailand,

46:51 most of them kept it inside

46:53 the factory.

46:54 And

46:56 what a lot of people don't realize is that

46:59 waste

47:00 gets wasted

47:01 even before you consume it.

47:03 We often talk about post-consumer waste

47:06 like in Thailand.

47:07 The post-consumer waste is 26 million tons

47:12 versus the industrial waste

47:14 which is 50 million tons.

47:16 So there's a lot of wastage happening

47:19 in the factories and in manufacturing.

47:21 And when we scope it down

47:24 to the um textile and garment industry in Thailand,

47:27 um actually the waste here,

47:30 the surplus fabric that is produced,

47:31 we have estimated

47:33 is 350,000 tons.

47:36 Which is an equivalent of making 700 million t-shirts.

47:40 Multiply that by about $10 you have the market size,

47:43 the annual market size

47:45 is $7

47:47 billion.

47:47 So I think this is quite attractive.

47:49 And um

47:51 and once we have um

47:54 Starting

47:55 to do this,

47:55 we have verified that the pain

47:58 is real

47:59 and at the same time also found out that

48:01 in Thailand we have quite a complete value chain

48:04 from the very upstream,

48:06 um,

48:07 from the

48:08 beaver

48:09 and to the garment

48:10 and also the traders.

48:12 They all have the same problem.

48:14 And Thailand

48:15 is actually

48:17 has this industry

48:20 for the past 30 years,

48:21 so we have a lot of experience,

48:23 therefore we have a lot of exports to Europe and America.

48:27 So all of these great

48:29 great materials ending up

48:31 here

48:33 and the finished products goes

48:35 abroad.

48:36 And the material

48:38 that is actually produced here or se here

48:41 get re-export back and people have to buy it at a much higher price.

48:46 And so

48:47 um all of these small tail end surplus now will get to be used

48:53 again and again you know again

48:56 and we,

48:56 we see this as a big opportunity.

48:59 Here in Thailand,

49:00 so I think the landscape is,

49:02 uh,

49:02 however,

49:02 the landscape,

49:03 I'm not sure it's the same

49:05 for every country,

49:07 uh,

49:07 for example,

49:08 um,

49:08 in the Philippines,

49:09 I think they don't have a lot of um cotton,

49:12 for example,

49:13 um,

49:14 they have more

49:15 on the polyester,

49:16 so,

49:17 um,

49:17 we haven't explored,

49:19 um,

49:19 uh,

49:20 the,

49:20 the,

49:21 the manufacturing base around the country yet,

49:23 but,

49:23 um,

49:24 the,

49:24 the reason that um Molo were able to start.

49:27 Uh,

49:28 this market,

49:29 I think firstly is because we were able to,

49:32 um,

49:33 my co-founder is able to

49:35 er penetrate all of her

49:37 er connections.

49:39 That we are able to get access to

49:43 first factory.

49:44 So we start with just one factory.

49:46 Now we have 70.

49:47 So

49:48 we start off small and then we start once we

49:51 have

49:52 found a use,

49:53 the suitable use for all of these materials,

49:57 we are able to attract more supply at the same time.

50:00 Um,

50:01 so it depends

50:02 on each country of the value chain that they have

50:06 and

50:06 and what the material that the surplus material that they can gather

50:10 and find a suitable use for all of these supplies.

50:14 I mean for us we have great quality materials.

50:17 Uh,

50:17 firstly I wanted to sell to

50:19 smaller SMEs and IG entrepreneur brands.

50:22 We have a lot of IG brands here in,

50:24 in,

50:24 in Thailand,

50:25 so,

50:25 um,

50:26 you know,

50:27 er,

50:27 er,

50:28 fresh grad who

50:29 wanted to buy some,

50:30 uh,

50:31 fabric and make her own clothing

50:34 fashion brand,

50:35 but

50:36 At the same time that that is like only 20% of our business.

50:40 The 70% of our business is actually using this fabric to sell to corporates

50:46 as t-shirts

50:47 and polo shirts

50:50 and bags

50:51 and masks and things like that.

50:53 So

50:54 um

50:55 we,

50:56 we are able to illustrate

50:59 how

50:59 how how great this material is and then put it into to good use.

51:04 Yeah,

51:04 so to actually uh copy the the the the model that we have established

51:11 needs to a lot of analysis and I think it is depends on country

51:15 and I think I'm quite lucky to have found

51:18 uh

51:19 the pain of my co-founder as well as

51:21 being in

51:22 Thailand with such complete value chain with quite a

51:25 sizable opportunity for us to kickstart this idea.

51:29 OK,

51:29 that's great.

51:30 Am I I think you might well be encouraging a

51:32 lot of entrepreneurs out there to at least explore the,

51:35 uh,

51:35 you know,

51:35 the opportunities of doing similar things in different countries.

51:39 Um,

51:40 so I just wanna come back to some of the questions that are in the chat,

51:44 um,

51:45 before.

51:45 I sort of carrying on with some of the other ones.

51:47 We have one here.

51:48 Um,

51:49 why do you believe,

51:50 who do you believe is really shifting the needle for circular fashion?

51:53 Are suppliers waiting for their existing customer

51:55 brands to push them and demand it,

51:57 or are suppliers focusing on it themselves and waiting for brands to come to them?

52:02 Khaled,

52:03 as a sort of production supplier person,

52:06 do you have any,

52:07 any views on,

52:07 on that one?

52:10 Can you repeat the question,

52:11 please?

52:12 I couldn't hear properly.

52:14 OK,

52:14 it's,

52:14 it's in the chat,

52:15 but I'll repeat it.

52:15 So who do you believe is really shifting the needle for circular fashion?

52:19 Is it the suppliers that are waiting for their existing customer brands to push them

52:24 and demand it,

52:25 or are suppliers focusing on it themselves

52:28 and waiting for brands to come,

52:30 then come to them?

52:32 I think it works both ways as far as the large manufacturers are concerned,

52:36 because large manufacturers do anticipate what kind of market trends are there.

52:41 And what are the requirements from the consumer side and so on and so forth.

52:44 What are the

52:46 new emerging requirements of the customers are concerned,

52:49 sustainability.

52:50 It's a major,

52:50 major theme with all the companies.

52:52 So as far as the,

52:53 I mean,

52:53 the supplier side is concerned,

52:55 they are also,

52:56 I think,

52:56 equally concerned.

52:57 They are investing.

52:58 They are training people.

53:00 They are going for massive kind of certifications also upgrading their

53:04 compliance requirement and sustainability teams and all that.

53:08 So far the client is concerned.

53:10 I think that the largest sized company in Pakistan,

53:12 in Bangladesh,

53:13 Sri Lanka,

53:14 and

53:15 Bangladesh,

53:16 they're all India,

53:18 they're all concerned about it,

53:19 and I see,

53:20 I mean,

53:20 a lot is happening as far as the supply side is concerned

53:23 as far as the buyer is concerned,

53:25 yes,

53:25 the buyer because they are.

53:26 are actually communicating with the consumer.

53:29 They are carrying the demands for the consumers

53:31 and this demand of the circular economy actually originated from there also.

53:37 So I think most of the buyers are also taking a lead into it.

53:40 But again,

53:41 different buyers have different kind of

53:44 Priorities or the sense of urgency or the kind of wholesome approach.

53:49 Some of the buyers are,

53:50 you know,

53:51 they are very much concerned for the whole

53:54 wholesome approach as such,

53:55 but a few of the buyers,

53:56 we think

53:57 that they are not that urgent.

53:59 So it is a mixed kind of a thing.

54:01 But as far as the medium and size,

54:03 medium and small operators are concerned.

54:06 Uh,

54:06 I think they are also cautious of this thing.

54:09 But again,

54:10 going for the sustainability,

54:11 going for the circular kind of thing,

54:13 uh,

54:14 I mean,

54:14 Capex is very much important,

54:16 and,

54:16 uh,

54:17 uh,

54:17 resources,

54:18 financial resources,

54:19 you need to have it.

54:20 The management and the corporate time is also involved into it,

54:24 and medium and small sized companies actually have the constraints over there.

54:28 And then again

54:29 from the buyer side,

54:30 also most of the buyers

54:32 which are for these medium and size,

54:35 small sized companies,

54:36 they also do not have those kind of a sensitive approach which the major brands have.

54:41 But good thing is,

54:42 at least the larger side company which are holding major

54:45 portion of the business,

54:47 they are sensitive from both sides,

54:49 from the buyer side also,

54:50 from the supplier side also.

54:53 I would like to highlight that lately the governments,

54:56 the policymaking

54:58 institutions,

54:58 they are becoming very active.

55:00 Also,

55:01 the new laws are being framed,

55:02 new authorities,

55:03 new organizations are being placed in,

55:06 the new benchmarks and certifications are required,

55:08 they are being placed,

55:10 and that is a good move,

55:11 I think,

55:11 unless the government moves in.

55:13 At the federal level and the provincial or the county level,

55:17 things cannot actually move on.

55:19 So I can very clearly see a sense of urgency,

55:22 a sense of alliance during the last many years in South Asian countries,

55:26 particularly I can speak of Pakistan,

55:29 that the governments are also now coming in.

55:31 And if you may allow to just close it,

55:35 that even in the the Millennium Goal development goals,

55:40 one of the

55:41 typical goals.

55:42 The governments have to actually report on the sustainability of the environment,

55:46 so it's very much there,

55:46 I think,

55:47 from the manufacturer side,

55:48 from the

55:49 buyer side,

55:50 and from the government side also,

55:51 and it is just the beginning,

55:53 but the road is very bumpy,

55:54 not an easy one also.

55:57 OK,

55:57 yeah.

55:58 So I think having this this push towards a circular economy right the

56:01 way along that that value chain is incredibly important is what you're saying.

56:06 And it can be more or less,

56:07 less sort of pushed by different components

56:10 within that chain.

56:11 Um,

56:12 there,

56:13 there's another question here,

56:14 which I think,

56:14 uh,

56:14 Jenny might

56:15 be quite a good person to try to answer.

56:17 Um,

56:18 recycling is effective if the waste is sorted according to fiber type.

56:22 This involves manual labor.

56:24 Training to sort blended fabrics is a challenge while scaling up.

56:27 How can this be overcome,

56:28 Jenny,

56:29 have you got any thoughts on,

56:31 on the actual sort of sourcing?

56:34 Yes,

56:35 of course,

56:36 uh,

56:37 the sorting is very important.

56:39 Both the first step to sort what can be sold like secondhand.

56:43 Garments and what

56:44 is not in a good condition that should go for more fiber recycling.

56:49 So of course this is the crucial step.

56:51 The first step,

56:52 I think the manual sorting is still

56:54 needed because

56:56 machines are not yet able to.

56:59 To determine if a garment can be sold as a garment or not,

57:03 but when it comes to the fiber

57:06 sorting of fiber level,

57:07 there are several initiatives in this area and several technologies

57:12 existing already.

57:13 In south of Sweden,

57:15 a plant has just been built for

57:19 Fiber sorting.

57:20 So

57:21 I think this is the way forward to

57:24 sort material that cannot be used as garment.

57:27 So

57:28 we will start to get material from this plant

57:31 very soon.

57:34 So there is technology to support.

57:37 OK,

57:38 so that's,

57:38 that,

57:38 that,

57:39 that sounds quite like quite exciting and new technology as well.

57:43 Um,

57:44 Jenny,

57:44 could you also just give us,

57:45 uh,

57:45 I mean,

57:46 obviously the,

57:46 the,

57:47 your company is working largely in Sweden.

57:49 Could you just give us a sense of how,

57:51 with what sort of ease with the technologies that your company has been developing,

57:55 be able to be applied in areas such as South Asia and East Asia,

57:59 where there's a huge amount of textile production?

58:02 Yes,

58:03 so yes,

58:04 our first

58:05 plant is in Sweden and our second plant will also be in Sweden,

58:09 but we

58:09 have very ambitious plans to open more plants

58:14 all over the world.

58:15 We have a goal to recycle

58:18 around.

58:20 I should say 3 360,000 metric tons of

58:26 dissolving pulp from recycled textiles by 2030.

58:30 So that's quite soon and that will require several

58:34 more plants than the one we are currently building.

58:37 So

58:37 we hope to have

58:39 plants in many areas of the world.

58:41 Of course,

58:43 uh,

58:43 Southeast,

58:44 East Asia and China are interesting markets since there are a lot of textile.

58:49 Production going on in that area and we work

58:52 both with textile waste from production and post-consumer waste.

58:57 So for the post-consumer waste,

58:58 of course,

58:59 all,

58:59 all areas where there are a lot of

59:02 people using clothes are interesting

59:05 if there is collection going on.

59:07 So

59:07 I hope we can have many plots in the next coming years.

59:12 OK,

59:12 that sounds sounds very good.

59:14 Good luck with that.

59:17 And

59:18 just as a as a final wrap up question,

59:20 I think to all the panel members who go around again in order.

59:24 Um,

59:24 I mean just thinking a little bit about the policies.

59:27 Um,

59:27 so both policies that would sort of influence the behavior of the public,

59:31 and the behavior of Consumers,

59:33 but also policies that might influence,

59:35 um,

59:35 the manufacturers as Khaled was sort of referring to before.

59:40 What would be your

59:42 top or your key policies in both those arenas that you would like to see

59:46 happen to start to allow us to move even more quickly

59:49 towards the circular economy?

59:50 And I'll,

59:51 I'll go first to Amalpo

59:53 to see if,

59:54 uh,

59:54 you can give us your thoughts on that.

59:57 Yes,

59:58 thank you very much,

59:59 um,

59:59 I think um the policy and the government is one of the,

1:00:04 you know,

1:00:04 key player

1:00:06 to actually drive this

1:00:07 forward

1:00:08 and I'm hoping to see

1:00:11 um policies such as um

1:00:14 circular procurement.

1:00:17 That the government endorsed to actually jumpstart the industry,

1:00:21 incentivize in a real way

1:00:24 for the company to be encouraged to

1:00:28 change

1:00:29 the way

1:00:30 they are producing and encourage that they are starting

1:00:34 to use and adopt the mindset.

1:00:38 Also,

1:00:40 the tax cut would be

1:00:42 great,

1:00:42 another great incentive to start off

1:00:46 slowly.

1:00:47 To implement the policy as well as

1:00:50 some

1:00:51 funding

1:00:52 for the circular

1:00:54 project alike

1:00:56 and in Thailand I'm part of the

1:01:00 subcommittee for the circular economy funding,

1:01:03 so we are

1:01:04 actively funding

1:01:06 some of the circular economy projects

1:01:09 and at the same time from the top down

1:01:12 spreading the word.

1:01:13 And also

1:01:15 spreading

1:01:15 the circular mindset and giving some of the examples,

1:01:20 building some CE

1:01:22 champion companies

1:01:24 here in Thailand so that

1:01:27 people can be

1:01:28 inspired and understand

1:01:30 the mindset because I think

1:01:31 the most effective way

1:01:33 to change

1:01:35 into transition into the circular economy

1:01:38 is actually by

1:01:40 Everybody

1:01:41 having the mindset

1:01:43 and having the mindset allows everybody's

1:01:47 imagination

1:01:49 to drive

1:01:51 and create

1:01:52 something new

1:01:53 out of

1:01:54 whatever they have available.

1:01:57 Like for example,

1:01:58 for me,

1:01:59 I actually just

1:02:01 have the mindset

1:02:03 from reading

1:02:05 the Resource revolution,

1:02:06 the book Resource Revolution,

1:02:08 as well as study very deeply.

1:02:10 Um,

1:02:10 er,

1:02:10 er,

1:02:10 the Ellen MacArthur Foundation website,

1:02:13 that's it.

1:02:15 And once I have,

1:02:16 and once I have the mindset,

1:02:18 it's starting to,

1:02:19 um,

1:02:20 uh,

1:02:20 grow on me

1:02:21 and wanting to test out

1:02:23 whether what this wonderful concept would look like,

1:02:28 um,

1:02:28 and so I think that,

1:02:30 um,

1:02:31 having

1:02:32 The,

1:02:32 um,

1:02:33 you know,

1:02:33 money incentive,

1:02:34 sure,

1:02:34 I think it's great,

1:02:35 but at the same time,

1:02:36 um,

1:02:37 educational

1:02:38 and building real

1:02:39 businesses,

1:02:40 I think,

1:02:41 uh,

1:02:41 uh,

1:02:42 having a real,

1:02:43 um,

1:02:44 example of,

1:02:45 of successful business

1:02:46 er who are scalable and profitable

1:02:49 and,

1:02:50 um,

1:02:50 incentivize everybody to build this industry,

1:02:53 um,

1:02:54 that would be one of the most effective way

1:02:57 of,

1:02:57 of building this,

1:02:58 this,

1:02:58 this new transition

1:02:59 and,

1:03:00 and I'm,

1:03:00 I'm seeing that.

1:03:01 A little bit here.

1:03:02 So,

1:03:03 yeah,

1:03:03 I just wanted to share.

1:03:05 OK,

1:03:06 thank you ever so much.

1:03:07 I think we probably have to end

1:03:09 on that note and we can come back to the others perhaps in the final panel session

1:03:14 here.

1:03:14 But I think that's,

1:03:15 that's a nice sort of place to end.

1:03:16 It's not just about resources,

1:03:18 but it's also about having the will

1:03:19 to really want to make a change.

1:03:21 So I hand back to,

1:03:22 um,

1:03:23 Dave,

1:03:24 I think,

1:03:25 for the next panel session.

1:03:28 Thanks so much Lisa.

1:03:30 That was a really great discussion,

1:03:32 um,

1:03:33 and now we'll move on to panel two where we'll be focusing on

1:03:38 the role of the brand,

1:03:40 uh,

1:03:40 and focusing on,

1:03:42 you know,

1:03:42 new,

1:03:43 uh,

1:03:43 ways to,

1:03:45 to,

1:03:45 to engage the consumer and so on,

1:03:47 so we'll be speaking to players,

1:03:49 you know,

1:03:49 uh,

1:03:49 more involved.

1:03:50 In the downstream side,

1:03:52 uh,

1:03:52 and I would like to welcome our moderator for panel two.

1:03:55 So we have Whitney Bok,

1:03:57 which is the senior sustainability reporter at Fashionista,

1:04:01 and prior to working with Fashionista,

1:04:03 she also wrote for The New York Times and The Washington Post and in 2020,

1:04:08 Whitney was named the Environmental Reporting Fellow at the McHealth Institute.

1:04:12 Whitney,

1:04:13 uh,

1:04:13 is the sessions yours.

1:04:15 Thanks.

1:04:17 Thanks so much.

1:04:18 I'm so glad to be here.

1:04:19 I'm here with Mark Drake Knight,

1:04:21 Jessica Long,

1:04:21 and Sarah Hayes,

1:04:22 and I'm actually gonna have each of the panelists

1:04:25 introduce themselves a little bit about

1:04:27 themselves and their company and sort of their expertise.

1:04:29 So,

1:04:30 Mark,

1:04:30 could we start with you?

1:04:35 Sure,

1:04:36 hi Whitney,

1:04:36 um,

1:04:37 just checking if you can hear me.

1:04:38 Yes,

1:04:39 it's great,

1:04:39 um,

1:04:40 yeah,

1:04:40 I'm,

1:04:40 I'm Mark,

1:04:41 um,

1:04:42 I'm,

1:04:42 uh,

1:04:42 an engineer,

1:04:43 one of the co-founders at TI.

1:04:45 Uh,

1:04:45 we make products from natural materials,

1:04:47 uh,

1:04:47 we use renewable energy.

1:04:50 We produce products,

1:04:51 uh,

1:04:52 in real time,

1:04:53 um,

1:04:54 and I think,

1:04:54 uh,

1:04:55 perhaps the

1:04:55 two bits of our business that are

1:04:58 interesting and,

1:04:58 and relevant to this is that every product we make is designed

1:05:00 from the start to come back to us when it's worn out,

1:05:03 and we make our new products from the material that we recover.

1:05:07 And in recent years,

1:05:08 what we've been doing is packaging all of that up,

1:05:11 um,

1:05:11 in a platform at Til and giving it away to people

1:05:14 so that they can participate and start their own circular businesses.

1:05:19 Red.

1:05:20 Sarah?

1:05:24 Yes,

1:05:25 hi,

1:05:25 Whitney,

1:05:25 can you hear me?

1:05:26 Yes,

1:05:28 great,

1:05:28 thanks.

1:05:29 Yeah,

1:05:30 uh,

1:05:30 delighted to be here.

1:05:31 My name is Sarah Hayes,

1:05:33 and I'm working with the H&M Group Global sustainability department,

1:05:38 so I'm based in Stockholm,

1:05:40 Sweden as well,

1:05:41 and I'm part of the circular team there.

1:05:44 And my current focus at the moment is really looking at

1:05:49 how do we accelerate initiatives within circular design,

1:05:53 but also how do we transform towards a circular business model

1:05:58 and really going from

1:06:00 testing to scale there.

1:06:04 Great.

1:06:04 And Jessica?

1:06:06 Great.

1:06:06 Thank you,

1:06:07 Whitney,

1:06:07 and hello to everyone.

1:06:08 Also quite excited to be on today's panel discussion.

1:06:11 I've already seen

1:06:13 a lot of the really interesting questions from the the first panel.

1:06:16 Um,

1:06:17 I've spent the last 20 years or so working

1:06:20 at the intersection of,

1:06:21 of business,

1:06:22 uh,

1:06:23 nonprofit and sustainability and responsible business across North America,

1:06:27 Africa.

1:06:28 Asia and Latin America

1:06:31 spent about close to 28 years working at Accenture,

1:06:35 leading their responsible business and sustainable business practice,

1:06:39 and with Accenture

1:06:40 co-published a book called The Circular Economy Handbook,

1:06:43 basically sharing all of our lessons over

1:06:46 several years working at Circular Economy.

1:06:48 I've recently joined a leading Investment firm

1:06:52 based in New York called Closed Loop Partners that is specifically focused on

1:06:57 kind of filling that necessary gap

1:07:00 in circular economy transformation and scaling circular solutions,

1:07:04 so bringing financing and then actually building out

1:07:08 a lot of the solutions and infrastructure that

1:07:11 I'm sure we will talk about today.

1:07:13 Thanks,

1:07:13 Whitney.

1:07:15 Great.

1:07:15 So,

1:07:15 I'd love to start out with a question for all of you,

1:07:17 and any of you can sort of jump in wherever feels right with this.

1:07:21 Um,

1:07:22 how can we make circular fashion,

1:07:23 whether that's in terms of durable materials or rental models,

1:07:27 more accessible for the average customer?

1:07:35 Yeah,

1:07:35 happy to shoot on that one,

1:07:37 Whitney.

1:07:38 Um,

1:07:39 I mean,

1:07:39 I think

1:07:41 that's

1:07:42 really important to look at how do we actually increase accessibility here.

1:07:46 That's actually

1:07:48 a core part of our vision at the H&M Group.

1:07:51 But then when it comes to

1:07:53 the how part,

1:07:55 uh,

1:07:55 I think what we're seeing there is that

1:07:57 firstly it needs to be really easy

1:08:00 and it needs to be really convenient.

1:08:02 So really focusing on

1:08:04 customer centric solutions.

1:08:06 Um,

1:08:06 it's also quite key that

1:08:08 it's wallet friendly,

1:08:10 like especially now,

1:08:11 um,

1:08:12 post-COVID we're seeing that there is a

1:08:14 bit more sensitivity uh with customer spend.

1:08:18 Um,

1:08:18 in different sectors and different regions,

1:08:21 um,

1:08:22 but then overall I think we still need to

1:08:25 think fashion here and how do we meet

1:08:28 the customer's fashion needs,

1:08:30 but,

1:08:31 um,

1:08:31 in a more sustainable way.

1:08:34 So one thing that I think

1:08:36 can be key when looking at how do we increase accessibility,

1:08:41 we need

1:08:43 a diversity in models here,

1:08:44 especially as we move on towards a more circular model.

1:08:47 It's really not

1:08:48 a one size fits all.

1:08:51 And the customer will want to meet

1:08:53 those fashion needs in different ways and experience fashion in different ways,

1:08:57 and

1:08:57 I think that's where we can really dig into the creativity.

1:09:00 Like some customers really

1:09:03 will have pieces that they love,

1:09:05 they want to keep them for a long time,

1:09:07 repair them.

1:09:09 Uh,

1:09:10 where some customers will be more eager to

1:09:13 like tap into the rental and the

1:09:15 swapping scene where they can actually access pieces

1:09:18 in

1:09:19 maybe a higher price point that they actually couldn't

1:09:22 afford in a traditional retail model,

1:09:23 but they can actually access them in other ways.

1:09:27 Uh,

1:09:27 so I think,

1:09:28 I think,

1:09:28 I think there is really a lot of potential there.

1:09:36 Art or Jessica,

1:09:37 is there anything you could add to that?

1:09:38 00,

1:09:39 sorry,

1:09:39 go ahead,

1:09:40 Mark.

1:09:40 Yeah,

1:09:41 sorry,

1:09:41 I was,

1:09:41 um,

1:09:42 I was being polite,

1:09:43 waiting,

1:09:43 waiting,

1:09:43 waiting for someone to ask,

1:09:44 ask me,

1:09:45 um,

1:09:45 yeah,

1:09:45 I,

1:09:46 I think,

1:09:46 um.

1:09:48 I,

1:09:48 I,

1:09:49 I kind of agree with Sarah's point,

1:09:50 you know,

1:09:50 you want,

1:09:50 you want products,

1:09:51 you know,

1:09:51 if we're gonna make,

1:09:53 we're serious about this circular thing,

1:09:54 we need the products to be like,

1:09:55 really awesome.

1:09:56 But I,

1:09:56 I think the fashion industry,

1:09:57 there's one thing the fashion industry are amazing at,

1:09:59 is making products that,

1:10:01 that,

1:10:01 that look great,

1:10:02 um,

1:10:03 and really circular business is,

1:10:05 is.

1:10:07 A lot about materials and model.

1:10:09 So we can still have products that look amazing,

1:10:12 but what we're talking about here is,

1:10:14 is not,

1:10:14 it's not the products,

1:10:15 it's the way they're made and what happens when,

1:10:17 when,

1:10:17 what they're made from,

1:10:18 the way they're made and what happens when they're,

1:10:19 when they're worn out.

1:10:20 And I,

1:10:20 I think,

1:10:21 um,

1:10:21 when we talk about accessibility,

1:10:23 you know,

1:10:23 something like 40% of all clothing production is never utilized,

1:10:26 it goes straight into,

1:10:27 into landfill.

1:10:28 And,

1:10:28 um,

1:10:29 so,

1:10:29 so I,

1:10:30 I kind of wanna,

1:10:30 wanna make a point here,

1:10:31 which is that.

1:10:33 Actually,

1:10:33 surely it would be cheaper not to waste

1:10:36 that,

1:10:36 and theoretically up to 40% cheaper.

1:10:39 So,

1:10:39 uh,

1:10:39 uh,

1:10:40 you know,

1:10:40 too often in this conversation,

1:10:41 um,

1:10:42 you know,

1:10:42 people equivocate a little bit,

1:10:44 or,

1:10:44 or say,

1:10:44 well,

1:10:44 you know,

1:10:45 we'd like to do something that's gonna be more expensive.

1:10:47 Um,

1:10:47 I think if a business sets out,

1:10:50 um,

1:10:50 not because of external pressure to kind of be seen to be doing something,

1:10:53 but sets out to say,

1:10:53 how do we actually change the way that products are made,

1:10:55 change,

1:10:56 change the factories,

1:10:57 um.

1:10:59 Uh,

1:10:59 and,

1:10:59 and change that 40% of waste,

1:11:01 so we could end up with products where they're designed

1:11:03 from the start to come back and be remade,

1:11:04 where the,

1:11:05 where the brand,

1:11:06 saves money,

1:11:07 the consumer saves money,

1:11:08 and it's better for the environment,

1:11:09 so the potential win,

1:11:10 win,

1:11:10 win.

1:11:15 And Whitney,

1:11:15 I'll just say I completely agree with with all

1:11:17 the comments that have been made so far.

1:11:19 I think it is,

1:11:20 there's not a silver bullet,

1:11:21 right?

1:11:21 It's not like here's the one model or the one solution or the one company.

1:11:26 It's not even just how to,

1:11:28 here's the way that we deal with waste.

1:11:30 It truly is that full end to end

1:11:33 value chain that Mark just mentioned,

1:11:36 and I think it is,

1:11:37 it's a matter of

1:11:39 And I apology,

1:11:40 I apologize for the pun here,

1:11:41 but closing the loop,

1:11:42 right,

1:11:43 of truly looking at end to end,

1:11:45 um,

1:11:46 what,

1:11:46 what are the consumers demanding?

1:11:48 How do we help inform them better about and educate

1:11:51 about the different products and materials that are out there?

1:11:53 How do we design products

1:11:55 with materials that are meant to be

1:11:57 reused or recycled or brought back to their original condition

1:12:02 and And when consumers are done using whatever particular product

1:12:06 or clothing or bedding or whatever textile they're using,

1:12:09 how do we make sure we are getting it back?

1:12:12 So that collection,

1:12:12 that reverse logistics piece

1:12:14 is just,

1:12:15 is just so critical.

1:12:16 And to Sarah's point,

1:12:17 it's not one answer for how that model should work.

1:12:20 Some people

1:12:22 are happy to bring their product back into a store.

1:12:25 Some people

1:12:25 Really want it or need it to be collected or picked up from them.

1:12:29 Some people need different incentives models,

1:12:31 right?

1:12:31 So

1:12:32 the kind of subscription model works quite well in certain parts of the

1:12:35 world and in other parts of the world it doesn't work at all,

1:12:38 right?

1:12:38 So providing these different models and different options just like we do with

1:12:42 every other industry out there,

1:12:44 I think is going to be critical to making sure it is

1:12:47 both accessible and affordable.

1:12:50 Mm

1:12:51 A point that's often talked about in sort of circular economy

1:12:55 conversations is the importance of collaboration across the value chain.

1:12:58 I'm curious what any of you think makes successful collaborations

1:13:02 in the fashion industry and how do we make collaborations

1:13:05 more inclusive both across developed,

1:13:07 developed and developing economies.

1:13:13 I'll jump in with one quick thing around collaboration because I actually

1:13:17 think it's the key to making this whole thing work because it is

1:13:21 in many ways a volume game.

1:13:23 It's a matching supply and demand,

1:13:24 and we know whenever people do complain about

1:13:27 a more sustainable product being more expensive,

1:13:30 oftentimes it's just because we don't have the volume that's needed

1:13:33 to make it be.

1:13:34 The more affordable option.

1:13:36 Or to Mark's point,

1:13:37 we're not looking at the full cost of ownership of that actual product.

1:13:41 And by full cost of ownership,

1:13:42 I mean including

1:13:43 all of the wasted product that

1:13:45 doesn't actually go to market

1:13:47 or the cost of actually recycling or the cost of landfilling something

1:13:51 and the the the burden on municipalities or on

1:13:54 local governments to To pay for that cost.

1:13:57 Um,

1:13:57 so I think to

1:13:59 get the sustainable circular products and services

1:14:02 to a point where

1:14:04 they are the preferred option,

1:14:05 you actually have to have collaboration,

1:14:07 right?

1:14:07 It's not one company saying,

1:14:09 we want to use this,

1:14:10 this circular product.

1:14:12 You have to get the volume of the vast majority of companies to want that,

1:14:17 um,

1:14:17 so that

1:14:18 the price points make sense.

1:14:22 I think,

1:14:22 uh,

1:14:22 for,

1:14:23 for me,

1:14:23 collaboration,

1:14:23 I'd say the most important thing is to have the same values.

1:14:26 It doesn't work if you've got,

1:14:27 you've got,

1:14:28 you know,

1:14:28 you've got different values.

1:14:29 But I think we stoical economy that the,

1:14:31 the collaboration,

1:14:32 uh,

1:14:32 the most interesting collaboration is the fact

1:14:33 that you're collaborating with your customer.

1:14:36 So,

1:14:36 you know,

1:14:37 really to make the,

1:14:37 the,

1:14:38 the product flow around,

1:14:39 um,

1:14:40 it's not just about working a materials level or a factories level,

1:14:43 but,

1:14:43 um,

1:14:44 it's realizing that,

1:14:45 and taking responsibility for what happens to the product after the in-use phase.

1:14:51 And so you need to work with your customer to,

1:14:53 and build a relationship.

1:14:54 And you get some quite interesting dynamics if you,

1:14:56 if you do that.

1:14:57 Um,

1:14:57 like,

1:14:58 for example,

1:14:58 um,

1:14:59 our customer,

1:15:00 uh Til is also our supplier.

1:15:02 They supply us with,

1:15:03 um,

1:15:04 our raw material.

1:15:05 Um,

1:15:06 and so going forward,

1:15:07 one of the things that we realized was this

1:15:08 is a really big opportunity to rapidly scale,

1:15:12 um,

1:15:13 You know,

1:15:13 the impact that we wanted to have and,

1:15:15 and the technology that we wanted to have by sharing it with our customers,

1:15:18 which is why,

1:15:18 why we built the platform,

1:15:20 and,

1:15:20 um,

1:15:22 and allow them to sort of participate on the supply side

1:15:25 as well.

1:15:26 Um,

1:15:27 so I think that values and the most important collaboration is,

1:15:30 is with,

1:15:30 with the user.

1:15:33 Yeah,

1:15:34 I think I could really

1:15:36 agree here with both actually.

1:15:37 I mean,

1:15:38 if we're going to have impact here,

1:15:40 we need to be collaborating.

1:15:41 It needs to be majority doing it

1:15:43 and yeah,

1:15:44 there definitely is a certain magic when we are

1:15:48 having that collaboration with the customer,

1:15:50 but I think also when

1:15:51 I'm reflecting a bit on,

1:15:53 OK,

1:15:53 what actually makes,

1:15:54 um,

1:15:55 yeah,

1:15:56 successful collaboration.

1:15:57 I think what we've seen a bit is when you're

1:16:00 also finding partners that have complementary capabilities.

1:16:05 It's really not that you need to be

1:16:07 an expert in everything you do,

1:16:10 so I mean when you're mapping your ecosystem and you know where are the gaps,

1:16:15 really inviting others in

1:16:17 and to really see how you can build on that together.

1:16:21 Um,

1:16:22 and I think also sharing knowledge is another

1:16:25 key success factor when it comes to collaboration as well,

1:16:29 because it does take,

1:16:30 it takes all sorts,

1:16:31 um,

1:16:32 it takes big,

1:16:33 small,

1:16:33 old and new,

1:16:34 it takes all kinds of partnerships to get us there

1:16:37 and um

1:16:39 yeah,

1:16:39 even being able to

1:16:41 share access and to share knowledge is what's going to get us there faster as well.

1:16:47 It's great.

1:16:49 Mark,

1:16:49 I would love to go back to you and talk a little

1:16:51 bit about uh TMill's sort of made to order supply chain,

1:16:54 cause it's organized as a platform that's

1:16:57 open source and freely accessible to any company in the fashion industry.

1:17:01 What

1:17:01 is the uptake of this service so far and

1:17:04 how long do you think it will take for made to order to sort of become more mainstream,

1:17:07 so we can be cutting out that waste that you were talking

1:17:09 about on the sort of front end of the production cycle?

1:17:16 So we're quite a simple place,

1:17:18 and I,

1:17:18 I think,

1:17:19 uh,

1:17:19 we sort of look at these things sometimes in quite a helpful,

1:17:21 a naive but helpful way,

1:17:23 which is that we would say,

1:17:24 well,

1:17:24 aren't all clothes made to order?

1:17:26 I mean,

1:17:26 somebody orders them.

1:17:28 Um,

1:17:28 it just sort of seems,

1:17:29 uh,

1:17:30 crazy to us that there will be somebody sat in the middle who's predicting

1:17:33 what people want to buy.

1:17:35 And then you end up with,

1:17:36 obviously that's inaccurate,

1:17:37 so you end up with all of this,

1:17:38 this waste,

1:17:39 um,

1:17:39 and you need a marketing team to try and push what you want to sell instead.

1:17:42 And it seems more obvious logical to us to say,

1:17:44 well,

1:17:45 why don't we just produce the,

1:17:47 make what people need,

1:17:49 uh,

1:17:49 when they need it.

1:17:50 Now,

1:17:51 for us to make that possible,

1:17:52 um,

1:17:53 if we

1:17:54 use technology.

1:17:56 And to,

1:17:57 to make a lot of these things possible,

1:17:59 uh,

1:17:59 like the reverse logistics system that we have and the recovery,

1:18:02 you know,

1:18:02 we,

1:18:03 we've developed

1:18:03 tech technologies of our own,

1:18:06 um,

1:18:06 hardware,

1:18:07 software,

1:18:07 but also,

1:18:08 the thing about tech is it's not.

1:18:11 Evenly distributed,

1:18:12 so something that's very obvious and simple in a parallel industry

1:18:15 is like really profound when you apply it to fashion.

1:18:18 So,

1:18:18 so,

1:18:18 so,

1:18:19 um,

1:18:20 you know,

1:18:21 when you,

1:18:21 when you kind of put it,

1:18:22 put it all together,

1:18:23 it's,

1:18:23 um,

1:18:24 a relatively

1:18:25 simple proposition to say,

1:18:26 you know,

1:18:27 here's a platform,

1:18:29 build your business,

1:18:29 and we'll produce the products in real time.

1:18:31 And because we only make what people need when they need it,

1:18:33 we don't need to hold a load of stock so we can give it away for free.

1:18:36 And because we give it away for free,

1:18:37 the uptake's been really great.

1:18:38 I mean,

1:18:39 there's.

1:18:39 You know,

1:18:40 enough,

1:18:40 um,

1:18:40 people running Teamil,

1:18:42 uh,

1:18:43 powered businesses online now to fill,

1:18:45 you know,

1:18:45 a decent sized football stadium.

1:18:47 Some of them are really big businesses,

1:18:48 like BBC or Google.

1:18:50 But I think what's most interesting is how many

1:18:53 people that would never have

1:18:55 participated as a business.

1:18:59 Um,

1:18:59 particularly with COVID,

1:19:00 you know,

1:19:01 it's people,

1:19:01 people who,

1:19:02 it's their first business.

1:19:03 And for me,

1:19:04 that's the most exciting one,

1:19:05 because you can see how

1:19:07 a technology,

1:19:08 an enabling technology,

1:19:10 um,

1:19:10 can create such

1:19:12 quick,

1:19:13 um.

1:19:15 Impact

1:19:16 when people are actually have the way,

1:19:19 uh,

1:19:19 you know,

1:19:20 as well as the will.

1:19:23 Yeah,

1:19:23 that makes sense.

1:19:25 I'd love to go back to Sarah,

1:19:27 since we're,

1:19:27 we've sort of talked about collaboration with the customer.

1:19:30 Um,

1:19:30 at the current rate,

1:19:31 the

1:19:32 current junction,

1:19:32 the rate of consumption

1:19:34 of fast fashion is

1:19:35 pretty alarming.

1:19:36 The average customer buys 60% more clothing items

1:19:40 than they did 16 years ago and

1:19:42 keeps each item for half,

1:19:43 half as long.

1:19:44 Um,

1:19:45 garments can be used

1:19:47 7 or 8 times before they're discarded,

1:19:49 that we can go on and on with the stats in terms of how much is,

1:19:52 how much textile waste is landfilled every second.

1:19:55 Um,

1:19:55 I'm curious,

1:19:56 Sarah,

1:19:57 how is H&M planning to take responsibility to help slow down that

1:20:00 rate of consumption on the front end before we even talk about

1:20:03 bringing those clothing,

1:20:04 those clothing items back into a circular loop?

1:20:08 Yeah,

1:20:09 um,

1:20:09 I mean,

1:20:10 there is,

1:20:11 there are a few different initiatives that we have going on there,

1:20:14 um,

1:20:15 that we get into,

1:20:16 but I also first wanted to

1:20:20 start with thinking a little bit about,

1:20:22 um,

1:20:22 I mean when we

1:20:23 talk about

1:20:24 consumption as well because for me also it's

1:20:28 Uh,

1:20:29 it's an interesting one because for me it's

1:20:31 not even the biggest concern about the speed,

1:20:35 but it's

1:20:35 actually a bit more about

1:20:37 how are we using resources.

1:20:40 Uh,

1:20:41 because when you're consuming something,

1:20:42 you're actually,

1:20:44 uh,

1:20:44 using it up,

1:20:46 um,

1:20:46 but when we think about fashion,

1:20:48 I mean you're using it,

1:20:49 you're not actually using it up in the same way.

1:20:51 It's not like an apple or

1:20:53 toothpaste,

1:20:54 um,

1:20:55 for example,

1:20:56 like we're not in the biological cycle here,

1:20:58 we're actually in

1:20:59 the technical cycle,

1:21:01 and there is where you really want

1:21:03 products and resources and materials to recirculate as many times as possible.

1:21:08 Um,

1:21:08 so I think that's where we really need to be focusing on how

1:21:12 can you use products more?

1:21:14 How do we need to design products and systems to enable recirculation at scale,

1:21:20 because if we can keep

1:21:21 these products and materials in the loop,

1:21:23 if we can

1:21:24 manage to reduce the leakage,

1:21:26 then the speed isn't

1:21:29 as much of a challenge because you can access fashion in fast and slow ways,

1:21:34 like if you are accessing through a rental or a swapping model.

1:21:38 Then you can actually

1:21:40 um

1:21:41 yeah meet those fashion needs of news value,

1:21:44 um.

1:21:46 But you're not

1:21:48 you're not having the same leakage,

1:21:50 you're keeping those products in use,

1:21:52 you're keeping them in the system.

1:21:54 Um,

1:21:55 yeah,

1:21:55 so I think that's where we really need to be

1:21:58 focusing on because we simply can't continue

1:22:01 with the system that we have today where we're,

1:22:04 you know,

1:22:04 extracting,

1:22:05 using,

1:22:06 but then it's just massive leakage,

1:22:08 it's just not,

1:22:10 um,

1:22:10 we just can't continue like that long term.

1:22:12 So I think the main things that

1:22:14 we're really focusing on then,

1:22:16 I mean,

1:22:17 where do you go from there?

1:22:19 We're looking at

1:22:21 Different types of reuse models and we've initially been doing

1:22:25 a lot of different pilots within different areas,

1:22:29 but now seeing,

1:22:31 OK,

1:22:31 how to move on from that,

1:22:32 how do we take those learnings and go towards scale,

1:22:35 but I think also

1:22:37 hand in hand with that

1:22:38 you need to be looking at how do you actually create products that are enabled

1:22:43 to recirculate in that system.

1:22:45 They need to be designed from the beginning

1:22:47 to be able to recirculate.

1:22:48 I mean,

1:22:49 much like we heard on the last panel.

1:22:51 Um,

1:22:52 yeah,

1:22:52 otherwise you're at a bit of a losing game with yourself.

1:22:55 So I think those are the main focuses for us right now.

1:22:59 Mm

1:23:01 So,

1:23:01 Jessica,

1:23:02 so far we've been talking a lot about um sort of the

1:23:06 the citizen customer side of things,

1:23:07 and we've talked about the business side of things.

1:23:09 I'm curious if you've seen in your,

1:23:11 in your sort of research,

1:23:12 what role can

1:23:14 governments play in sort of encouraging or supporting

1:23:17 businesses and citizens in the transition to more circular economies.

1:23:23 Well,

1:23:23 do you,

1:23:23 do you mind if I just comment on one thing that Sarah just said,

1:23:25 because I,

1:23:26 I love this point about consumers

1:23:28 and if

1:23:29 You really go back into history around like how actually

1:23:31 not that far back in the 1950s or so,

1:23:35 and,

1:23:35 and you look at the word like

1:23:37 consumerism and consumption and how it gets applied

1:23:40 to durable,

1:23:42 durable goods like the stuff in our house,

1:23:44 like

1:23:44 the chair,

1:23:45 the beds,

1:23:45 you know,

1:23:46 the,

1:23:46 even our refrigerators and TVs,

1:23:48 our clothing.

1:23:49 It's quite interesting,

1:23:50 right?

1:23:51 Because consumption was really meant to be,

1:23:53 and even

1:23:53 The,

1:23:54 the assumption of um what a consumer is,

1:23:56 was meant to be things that

1:23:58 um

1:23:59 that we eat,

1:24:00 right?

1:24:00 Things that we consume energy,

1:24:02 uh,

1:24:03 food,

1:24:03 drink,

1:24:03 whatever it might be,

1:24:04 things that we literally consume and digest

1:24:07 and is gone,

1:24:08 right?

1:24:08 I mean,

1:24:09 that was part of the original,

1:24:10 I can't remember the Latin definition,

1:24:12 but it's something about like eating and and killing and and fully

1:24:16 uh consuming and digesting

1:24:17 it then.

1:24:18 was applied to everyday goods,

1:24:20 right,

1:24:21 and consumable and durables and things in our house.

1:24:23 And that has quite an interesting negative implication,

1:24:26 similar to what both Sarah

1:24:28 and Mark talked about,

1:24:29 right?

1:24:29 This idea that

1:24:31 we are,

1:24:31 we buy things and then

1:24:33 we use them up and then we throw them away,

1:24:36 right?

1:24:36 And I say all that just because I think there's an interesting,

1:24:39 um both

1:24:41 behavioral mindset change that Has to happen

1:24:44 um around this idea of consumption,

1:24:46 as well as Whitney,

1:24:47 to your question,

1:24:48 um,

1:24:48 potentially policy or government

1:24:51 changes as well

1:24:52 around this idea of consumption or around this idea of,

1:24:55 I can,

1:24:56 I can extract resources from the ground,

1:24:58 I can then turn it into something,

1:25:00 and then it gets used for a relatively short amount of time,

1:25:03 and then it's just

1:25:04 thrown away into some,

1:25:06 you know,

1:25:07 Um,

1:25:08 vast area that nobody sees,

1:25:10 right,

1:25:10 i.e.,

1:25:11 landfills or oceans.

1:25:13 Um,

1:25:14 so to your question on government and policy,

1:25:16 I think there's a lot of stuff that that fits in there,

1:25:18 less,

1:25:19 um,

1:25:19 in terms of the role of policy,

1:25:23 I think there's some very basic ones that have been around for years,

1:25:26 like around

1:25:27 um

1:25:28 the use of toxic materials or creating safer products,

1:25:32 um,

1:25:32 and how those products.

1:25:34 designed,

1:25:34 so you look at all of the amazing innovations and things like

1:25:38 um dyeing and the and the use of dyeing and water production and

1:25:42 the leakage out into our water streams and a lot of regulation around that

1:25:46 has been,

1:25:47 has been quite successful.

1:25:49 Um,

1:25:49 so I think there's some basic things like that.

1:25:51 I think government's really tackling waste definitions and waste hierarchies

1:25:55 and how we think about waste and treat waste.

1:25:58 Right now we talk about waste as it is.

1:26:00 As it says if it is this one

1:26:03 thing,

1:26:04 and it is

1:26:04 bad,

1:26:05 um,

1:26:05 as opposed to looking at it,

1:26:07 um,

1:26:07 as Mark mentioned earlier,

1:26:09 actually as potential inputs back into our supply chain.

1:26:12 So really understanding,

1:26:13 um,

1:26:14 both what is good waste

1:26:16 or reusable waste versus what are those things that um

1:26:21 we can't do anything with.

1:26:22 And then once you have those waste definitions,

1:26:25 starting to think about.

1:26:26 What,

1:26:27 what's the highest value that I can extract from that waste,

1:26:30 right?

1:26:31 So is it about turning it back into the same product?

1:26:33 Is it about

1:26:34 upcycling or recycling?

1:26:36 Is it about conversion to energy?

1:26:38 Is it something else?

1:26:39 So,

1:26:40 there are really no standards on these definitions or values across waste.

1:26:45 So I could definitely see the role of government,

1:26:47 um,

1:26:48 especially when you're at the city level or at the regional level,

1:26:51 making,

1:26:51 you know,

1:26:52 a huge difference,

1:26:53 um.

1:26:54 I think aligning incentives would be quite interesting.

1:26:57 We've seen a huge boom

1:26:58 in the world of renewable energy because

1:27:01 there are these amazing government programs and rebates

1:27:05 with respect to getting consumers to buy,

1:27:08 um,

1:27:08 you know,

1:27:08 things in the world of renewables or EVs.

1:27:11 So I think I could definitely see a lot more

1:27:13 happening there.

1:27:14 And then finally,

1:27:15 I think there's some really big game changer type of

1:27:18 policies that could come out and make a huge difference like

1:27:21 EPR or extended producer responsibility.

1:27:23 legislation,

1:27:24 right,

1:27:25 where you tell a consumer,

1:27:26 a company,

1:27:27 if you created this device,

1:27:29 you know,

1:27:29 you own it

1:27:30 all the way,

1:27:31 you know,

1:27:31 from beginning of production all the way through whatever happens to it

1:27:34 at the end of use or end of life of that product.

1:27:37 Um,

1:27:37 I think that kind of thing could be a game changer.

1:27:39 It,

1:27:39 it's

1:27:40 to be seen,

1:27:41 I think over the next couple of years,

1:27:42 whether that will truly be

1:27:44 rolled out,

1:27:45 um,

1:27:45 broadly.

1:27:46 But again,

1:27:47 lots of things that can happen both at the local level as well as the

1:27:50 kind of the federal or global level.

1:27:53 That's great.

1:27:55 Um,

1:27:56 going back to you,

1:27:56 Mark,

1:27:57 I would love to talk about the free returns that you

1:28:00 sort of offer for customers to send back worn items.

1:28:02 You said,

1:28:03 you know,

1:28:04 your customer is also your supplier.

1:28:06 I'm curious about how the economics of this reverse logistics network work

1:28:10 and what are the sort of key cost considerations and also opportunities

1:28:14 that you've seen and that other companies could

1:28:16 consider as they try to emulate this practice.

1:28:20 Yeah,

1:28:21 kind of to comment on the policy thing,

1:28:22 I mean,

1:28:22 to start with,

1:28:23 it's,

1:28:24 on the surface,

1:28:24 it's not cheaper.

1:28:26 I mean,

1:28:26 um,

1:28:27 one of the things that happened when we

1:28:29 started out.

1:28:30 Trying to use

1:28:32 natural materials,

1:28:32 renewables,

1:28:33 or,

1:28:33 or,

1:28:34 uh,

1:28:34 recovered products is,

1:28:36 when we tried to do the right thing,

1:28:38 everything got more expensive.

1:28:40 And

1:28:40 people don't talk about that very much,

1:28:42 but that's totally insane,

1:28:43 like,

1:28:44 the,

1:28:44 the system is set up to

1:28:46 punish,

1:28:48 uh,

1:28:48 that kind of

1:28:49 effort.

1:28:50 Um,

1:28:51 what we did was we,

1:28:52 uh,

1:28:53 uh,

1:28:53 you know,

1:28:53 the reality is the fashion system is a high volume,

1:28:56 low value materials flow,

1:28:58 fundamentally,

1:28:58 if you go back down to the physics.

1:29:00 So,

1:29:01 so it's,

1:29:01 if,

1:29:02 if,

1:29:02 if it,

1:29:02 if it's hard,

1:29:03 or you have to process it by,

1:29:05 uh,

1:29:07 separating different materials,

1:29:08 so to put in work,

1:29:10 um.

1:29:11 Uh,

1:29:11 or,

1:29:12 or if you have to pay people to manually operate it,

1:29:15 you,

1:29:15 you're going to create a lot of cost for not much return.

1:29:18 Or,

1:29:18 or to put it another way,

1:29:19 for this to work,

1:29:20 it needs to be automated.

1:29:22 And you have to make millions of little decisions at the speed of light,

1:29:24 which is why people haven't done it till now,

1:29:26 because people

1:29:27 can't do that.

1:29:28 But that's exactly what computers do.

1:29:30 So,

1:29:31 what we did was just wrote the code for the reverse logistics system.

1:29:34 So

1:29:34 every product has like a.

1:29:37 Um,

1:29:38 I've got some props.

1:29:39 There you go.

1:29:40 The t-shirt I'm wearing has got a,

1:29:41 a thing in,

1:29:42 you scan it,

1:29:42 and then,

1:29:43 you know,

1:29:43 you,

1:29:43 it tells you how to send it back.

1:29:44 It costs you nothing.

1:29:46 Uh,

1:29:46 and,

1:29:47 and,

1:29:47 and I think the key thing I would,

1:29:48 I would just like to say here is,

1:29:50 um,

1:29:51 we've,

1:29:51 we,

1:29:51 we're just

1:29:52 using technology to find efficiencies to pay for it.

1:29:55 It,

1:29:56 the,

1:29:56 the,

1:29:56 the,

1:29:56 the efficiency in this case is to recover this to design

1:29:59 this shirt from the start to be simple and be remade.

1:30:02 So,

1:30:03 and then,

1:30:03 and then,

1:30:04 uh,

1:30:05 it's worth it to us to recover it,

1:30:07 because we can use the material.

1:30:09 So rather than pay for more cotton,

1:30:11 more organic cotton,

1:30:12 we just give the customer

1:30:14 an incentive to send it back.

1:30:17 Um,

1:30:18 and it,

1:30:18 it,

1:30:19 it,

1:30:19 if you.

1:30:21 Mess with the finances at a systemic level,

1:30:24 uh,

1:30:24 you can,

1:30:25 you can see that,

1:30:26 uh,

1:30:26 uh,

1:30:26 whilst,

1:30:27 uh,

1:30:28 yes,

1:30:28 it does cost us money to kind of have it posted back here and process it,

1:30:31 but we save money over here on materials costs.

1:30:34 Um,

1:30:35 so a little bit of,

1:30:35 of,

1:30:36 of clever sort of systems design,

1:30:37 plus the conscientious application of technology

1:30:40 is how we find these efficiencies.

1:30:42 And then it's those efficiencies that we reinvest

1:30:45 to pay for.

1:30:46 Um,

1:30:47 projects like this.

1:30:48 And this is an example sat next to me,

1:30:49 that,

1:30:49 the clothes I'm wearing are made out of waist,

1:30:51 by the way.

1:30:52 Um,

1:30:52 and,

1:30:52 and here's a,

1:30:53 here's a roll of

1:30:55 What used to be

1:30:56 t-shirts

1:30:58 before being made back into new ones.

1:31:00 And so I guess,

1:31:01 I guess,

1:31:01 um,

1:31:02 You know,

1:31:03 I think

1:31:04 what I'd like people to,

1:31:05 I think people don't talk about enough is the fact that.

1:31:08 You know,

1:31:08 this is not an ambition,

1:31:09 this is working

1:31:10 here.

1:31:12 Um

1:31:13 It's,

1:31:14 and,

1:31:14 and it,

1:31:14 and,

1:31:14 and it can be done with technology that's available

1:31:17 today.

1:31:17 We don't need

1:31:19 to wait

1:31:20 for someone to do something for regulatory change,

1:31:23 um,

1:31:24 although that would,

1:31:25 that would accelerate things.

1:31:27 You know,

1:31:27 I think,

1:31:27 I think it's a,

1:31:28 it's a point of hope,

1:31:29 really,

1:31:29 that,

1:31:30 um,

1:31:32 That businesses can make this work within the current system.

1:31:36 Mm

1:31:38 Sort of on that note,

1:31:39 Sarah,

1:31:39 I would love to talk to you about,

1:31:41 this is actually a question from Tanya in the chat

1:31:44 about what helped sort of get the internal buy-in for H&M to focus on circularity,

1:31:49 because I think there is a big difference between

1:31:51 a business,

1:31:51 the scale that Mart is running and a business,

1:31:54 the scale of H&M.

1:31:55 So,

1:31:55 at H&M,

1:31:56 was it sort of talking about numbers and cost saving,

1:31:59 or was it showing

1:32:00 sort of consumer demand and emphasis on sustainability?

1:32:04 How did that,

1:32:05 how did that become a focus at H&M?

1:32:11 Oh

1:32:13 It was just,

1:32:15 yeah,

1:32:15 recognizing that

1:32:17 we just can't continue doing business the way we can

1:32:21 and

1:32:22 I mean,

1:32:23 yeah,

1:32:23 and the size and scale that we are,

1:32:25 I mean the population is booming and we need to,

1:32:29 we want to continue offering

1:32:31 um

1:32:31 people fashion and to experience fashion in an accessible way,

1:32:35 in a way that's sustainable

1:32:37 um

1:32:38 but we can't continue to do that in the current system.

1:32:40 To find a way to decouple,

1:32:42 we just can't

1:32:43 continue to extract resources,

1:32:47 use them,

1:32:47 and then ditch them.

1:32:49 It's the bats just doesn't add up,

1:32:51 basically.

1:32:52 So

1:32:53 logic,

1:32:54 I think,

1:32:54 was really what won

1:32:57 through there

1:32:59 that we just need to find a way to decouple.

1:33:02 So we have been setting a lot of strong visions

1:33:04 and targets on that the last number of years,

1:33:07 but now it's really coming down to the crunch.

1:33:10 What are the actions we need to take to get there?

1:33:12 Um,

1:33:13 how do you decouple in reality?

1:33:16 And I think we've also seen um

1:33:19 Kind of a double edged approach as well.

1:33:21 It's been both top down and bottom up.

1:33:24 Like we also got a new CEO now this year,

1:33:27 and I mean that's created incredible momentum and

1:33:31 Helena has a super strong message.

1:33:33 She thinks,

1:33:35 I mean,

1:33:35 circularity is the only way,

1:33:39 but at the same time we also have really engaged colleagues.

1:33:43 and it's not just people sitting at the sustainability department globally or

1:33:48 even in the regional sustainability teams,

1:33:50 it's people all over the company who

1:33:52 are really searching to engage with this and you know how can I contribute

1:33:57 on this transition to a more circular system

1:34:01 and

1:34:02 yeah,

1:34:02 so I think it's a combination of factors there.

1:34:07 Gotcha.

1:34:08 And

1:34:09 Jessica,

1:34:09 I'd love to go back to you and see if

1:34:11 you have any insight from um other industries' experiences.

1:34:14 Are there anything that you've seen happen in

1:34:17 other industries that you think the fashion industry

1:34:19 could learn from in terms of trying to transition to a circular economy?

1:34:24 Yeah,

1:34:24 I think,

1:34:25 I think there's probably a few different things.

1:34:27 One is,

1:34:28 um,

1:34:28 especially given everything we've just heard from

1:34:30 Sarah and Martin from the first panel,

1:34:33 um,

1:34:33 you know,

1:34:33 a lot of us have been talking about resources and the use of resources.

1:34:37 It'd be interesting if you start looking at

1:34:39 the fashion industry as an extractive industry,

1:34:42 right,

1:34:43 or a resource intensive industry,

1:34:44 just like mining,

1:34:46 oil and gas,

1:34:47 or

1:34:47 even the high tech.

1:34:49 right?

1:34:49 They're literally taking things from the ground,

1:34:52 creating it at

1:34:54 without necessarily paying for the full cost,

1:34:56 right,

1:34:57 of those of those resources that they're taking.

1:35:00 And I bring that up,

1:35:00 Whitney,

1:35:01 just because it's not necessarily something that we

1:35:03 would think about as as a parallel industry.

1:35:05 But the the mining industry,

1:35:07 in particular,

1:35:09 over the years has,

1:35:09 has

1:35:10 done some really interesting things around um trying

1:35:14 To limit or stop mining in some areas,

1:35:18 or when they are mining to do so in more water and energy efficient ways.

1:35:23 So I think learning from an operational or operational efficiency perspective

1:35:27 from some of those resource intensive industries could be really interesting,

1:35:31 right?

1:35:31 Especially those industries that have,

1:35:34 have had to start pricing in the cost of those externalities,

1:35:37 right?

1:35:37 So the cost of carbon,

1:35:38 the cost.

1:35:39 Cost of water,

1:35:39 you know,

1:35:40 the cost of

1:35:41 pollution,

1:35:42 that type of thing.

1:35:43 I think another really interesting industry could be um

1:35:46 some successes that the food industry has had

1:35:49 in two different ways.

1:35:51 One is

1:35:52 the collaboration stuff we talked about earlier.

1:35:54 So getting enough companies together

1:35:56 to demand,

1:35:57 you know,

1:35:57 a more sustainable palm oil,

1:35:59 for example,

1:36:00 or an alternative

1:36:01 to unsustainable palm oil,

1:36:03 or The food and beverage industries coming

1:36:06 together to find alternatives to single-use plastics

1:36:09 or or multi-layer plastics,

1:36:11 things that cannot be easily

1:36:13 reclaimed and recycled.

1:36:15 So seeing these

1:36:16 collaborations or consortiums of

1:36:19 companies coming together has been

1:36:21 quite interesting in the just the recent years

1:36:24 in the food and beverage.

1:36:25 And another thing from food,

1:36:26 I think actually could be the rise in

1:36:29 Um,

1:36:29 alternative material,

1:36:30 alternative foods,

1:36:31 right?

1:36:31 So we're seeing a lot around things like

1:36:33 Beyond Meat and Impossible Burgers and,

1:36:36 um,

1:36:37 Just Egg,

1:36:38 things like that.

1:36:39 I think we're just now starting to see that as well in the,

1:36:42 in the world of fashion and textiles with respect to,

1:36:45 you know,

1:36:45 using

1:36:46 pineapples or mushroom or other types of materials as alternatives to leather,

1:36:51 right,

1:36:51 as we know leather

1:36:52 and cotton

1:36:53 are.

1:36:54 Very um

1:36:55 water intensive,

1:36:56 energy intensive,

1:36:57 resource intensive materials.

1:36:59 So I think learning from those industries

1:37:01 could be quite

1:37:03 interesting.

1:37:04 And then the last thing I'll just mention on industries,

1:37:06 again,

1:37:06 we don't think of it as an industry always,

1:37:08 but um is nature.

1:37:09 I think nature is one of our best

1:37:12 places to learn

1:37:13 with respect to circular economy models,

1:37:16 and there's some amazing new innovations and.

1:37:18 Technologies out there

1:37:20 that really come from nature.

1:37:21 There's a company called

1:37:22 Mori that basically learns from silkworms

1:37:26 to

1:37:27 put invisible coatings on products,

1:37:29 um,

1:37:30 and,

1:37:30 and many other things like that.

1:37:31 There's a company called Evernew that's able to take

1:37:33 materials and put them right back to their original,

1:37:36 um,

1:37:36 original form again,

1:37:37 learning from nature.

1:37:39 So probably don't consider that an industry,

1:37:41 but

1:37:41 hopefully one that we,

1:37:42 we learn a lot more from.

1:37:45 Yeah,

1:37:45 absolutely.

1:37:47 Sarah,

1:37:47 I would love to go back to you real quick,

1:37:49 um,

1:37:49 in terms of talking about what,

1:37:52 what are some of the low hanging fruits that,

1:37:54 that H&M has already sort of reached towards or

1:37:57 that a business of that scale can have,

1:38:00 can do today,

1:38:00 can do tomorrow,

1:38:01 versus what are some of the sort of,

1:38:03 um,

1:38:04 reach goals of things that are a little bit further out,

1:38:07 but that will have a sort of effective and more impactful impact on the,

1:38:11 um,

1:38:11 industry overall.

1:38:14 Yeah,

1:38:14 sure.

1:38:15 I mean when it comes

1:38:17 to

1:38:18 the model side of things,

1:38:20 I think

1:38:21 low hanging fruit is,

1:38:23 um,

1:38:24 I mean,

1:38:25 test things,

1:38:26 just try it out.

1:38:28 There's so many

1:38:29 different types of models out there,

1:38:31 so test and learn,

1:38:32 test and learn,

1:38:34 that's what we've been trying to focus on now

1:38:36 the last two years or so.

1:38:38 And I mean being part of a group,

1:38:41 we have

1:38:42 quite an array of brands as well and that's really been a plus there that

1:38:46 they can all try out different types of models

1:38:49 and then share the learnings as well across the group

1:38:52 um.

1:38:53 So I think yeah,

1:38:54 on the model side

1:38:56 just start

1:38:57 uh test and learn,

1:38:58 but then when it comes to,

1:39:01 yeah,

1:39:01 long term reach goals,

1:39:03 then it's how do you take those learnings and take them to scale,

1:39:06 and that's not quite so simple,

1:39:08 um,

1:39:09 especially if you are a large organization

1:39:12 and you've been

1:39:13 headed in a direction for

1:39:15 a certain amount of time.

1:39:15 It's like being a big ship and you need to take a sharp turn.

1:39:19 Uh,

1:39:20 so

1:39:21 yeah,

1:39:21 there's a certain amount of um

1:39:24 reorganization that needs to go into that and I

1:39:26 mean also shifting your systems and developing your systems.

1:39:30 I mean it's the

1:39:31 it's the IT,

1:39:32 it's the accounting,

1:39:33 it's the logistics,

1:39:35 and it's all of those things.

1:39:38 Uh,

1:39:38 so that

1:39:40 is definitely a bit more of a challenge,

1:39:41 but

1:39:42 I mean needed if we're going to scale and head towards the needed impact.

1:39:48 Um,

1:39:49 but then I think also on

1:39:51 the product side,

1:39:52 um,

1:39:53 because if you're looking at

1:39:54 the products that you're then going to circulate in those varying models,

1:39:58 um,

1:40:00 Yeah,

1:40:00 I think there's also different levels of how you could approach that

1:40:04 like more low hanging fruit,

1:40:06 yeah,

1:40:06 looking at the materials,

1:40:08 and

1:40:09 yeah,

1:40:09 we're trying right now to increase the share of recycled,

1:40:12 also

1:40:13 tapping into some of those new gen materials that you were talking a bit about,

1:40:16 Jessica.

1:40:17 There's really an array of things that you can do there,

1:40:19 so I think that's

1:40:22 Yeah,

1:40:22 like a start,

1:40:24 but then I think more

1:40:25 long term is also.

1:40:29 Yet moving from sustainable materials to circular products,

1:40:33 it's a bit of a mindset shift

1:40:35 needed.

1:40:37 Yeah,

1:40:38 and zooming out a bit just from materials,

1:40:40 it's how do you combine those materials?

1:40:42 What are the processes as well?

1:40:43 How do you put them together in a way that you can also take them apart,

1:40:47 that you can repair them easily,

1:40:49 also that they're fit for

1:40:52 the type of.

1:40:53 Purpose or the type of use

1:40:56 that they're intended for,

1:40:58 um,

1:40:59 so I think that is also a bit more challenging,

1:41:02 but we need to start from the drawing board here to actually enable products

1:41:07 to recirculate within those models.

1:41:11 Great.

1:41:12 Well,

1:41:12 I feel like I could keep asking you all questions all day,

1:41:14 but it looks like we're at the end of our time,

1:41:16 so I'm gonna hand it over and see if we can get into

1:41:19 some of the concluding remarks and maybe a little bit more of Q&A.

1:41:24 Thanks so much for and panel,

1:41:27 uh,

1:41:27 panelists.

1:41:28 We are,

1:41:29 we are,

1:41:29 so we have arrived at the final.

1:41:33 Thank you for staying with us throughout.

1:41:35 Uh,

1:41:36 so,

1:41:36 um,

1:41:37 yeah,

1:41:37 let me introduce the moderator for the final Q&A.

1:41:41 Uh,

1:41:42 please welcome

1:41:43 Doctor Henrique Pasini,

1:41:44 and he's an economist at ANCTED where he works,

1:41:47 uh,

1:41:47 on circular economy issues.

1:41:50 He's also,

1:41:51 uh,

1:41:51 part of the core team responsible for the sustainable manufacturing.

1:41:54 Environmental pollution program which is implemented

1:41:58 in partnership with the UK FCDO.

1:42:01 Uh,

1:42:01 Doctor Bacini

1:42:02 also published over 30 articles on environment,

1:42:05 trade and development issues and has worked for various private and

1:42:08 public institutions including the European

1:42:10 Commission and the Brazilian government.

1:42:14 Oh yes.

1:42:15 Thank you,

1:42:16 Zi.

1:42:16 Thanks,

1:42:16 everybody.

1:42:17 It has been thrilling so far to

1:42:19 listen to the panelists.

1:42:20 I've been learning a lot.

1:42:22 I,

1:42:22 uh,

1:42:22 I'm sure the audience as well because we've got so many questions.

1:42:25 I am overwhelmed with questions here.

1:42:27 We'll certainly not be able to go through all of them,

1:42:29 but without further ado,

1:42:30 and,

1:42:30 uh,

1:42:31 allow me to be a bit uh dictatorial in uh my approach,

1:42:34 I'll be saying the name of the

1:42:36 uh panelists.

1:42:37 Or a moderator,

1:42:38 uh,

1:42:38 to whom I'll be addressing the question to

1:42:41 because there are so many questions and it's kind of uh nice if we can find a match

1:42:45 straight on.

1:42:46 So,

1:42:46 uh,

1:42:46 to the point,

1:42:47 I have a question here from Sophie Homans

1:42:49 on the,

1:42:50 uh,

1:42:51 to,

1:42:51 uh,

1:42:51 that I addressed to Francois.

1:42:53 Francois,

1:42:53 uh,

1:42:53 uh,

1:42:54 using information linked to third vision points made from safe recycled.

1:42:58 or renewable inputs,

1:43:00 so labeling,

1:43:01 uh,

1:43:01 is,

1:43:02 uh,

1:43:02 uh,

1:43:03 are,

1:43:03 are you,

1:43:03 do you see a way to prompt businesses and governments to develop

1:43:07 and use more

1:43:08 eco label,

1:43:09 especially eco label related to circularity.

1:43:11 For example,

1:43:12 could you have,

1:43:13 uh,

1:43:13 uh,

1:43:14 genes,

1:43:14 uh,

1:43:14 redesigned,

1:43:15 developing into a more solid standards that people can adopt,

1:43:20 for example.

1:43:22 That is a very good question.

1:43:25 Um,

1:43:26 I,

1:43:27 I agree that today one of the main issues that we

1:43:31 face is the lack of homogeneity and alignment behind specific standards.

1:43:36 So

1:43:37 you have a number of different standards alongside different aspects of a product.

1:43:42 If you take blue signs,

1:43:43 they look at the chemicals that are used in a product.

1:43:47 If you look at

1:43:48 organic certifications,

1:43:50 they look at the materials or recycling certifications,

1:43:53 so all of them look at aspects of a product

1:43:56 that are quite discrete.

1:43:57 You've got cradle to cradle that can look at a varying degree

1:44:01 of aspects of the product,

1:44:02 but which is very,

1:44:03 very strict

1:44:04 and limits to some extent its adoption of cost,

1:44:07 but brings a lot of clarity on all the different aspects of the product.

1:44:12 I guess there are a number of considerations

1:44:15 to have when you look at certifications.

1:44:17 First is

1:44:18 how expensive or difficult it is

1:44:21 to get.

1:44:22 The second one is

1:44:23 how controversial some of its measures are and how difficult it is to drive adoption

1:44:29 across the industry.

1:44:31 What you mentioned the genes and what we took there is

1:44:36 basically brought together some level of standards or initiatives,

1:44:40 so for example,

1:44:41 ZDHC or

1:44:43 some certification around organic cotton

1:44:46 and brought all that under a more

1:44:49 like

1:44:51 Like broad

1:44:52 umbrella where we also looked at durability,

1:44:54 where we also looked at

1:44:56 recyclability

1:44:59 but actually

1:45:00 did it in a way that

1:45:02 Ask people to self-report on what they were doing,

1:45:06 so it's not really a certification because we

1:45:08 don't go as far as validating ourselves,

1:45:11 but we aim to bring transparency

1:45:14 so people can

1:45:15 ask questions and challenge and understand

1:45:19 what is happening with the products that they purchased.

1:45:22 I hope that answers the question.

1:45:25 That's great,

1:45:25 Francois.

1:45:28 a number of questions related to the social impact of

1:45:30 this transformation from linear

1:45:32 production to circular

1:45:34 production and marketing.

1:45:35 Uh,

1:45:35 I'm gonna address,

1:45:36 uh,

1:45:36 Jessica here,

1:45:37 uh,

1:45:37 with your,

1:45:38 your previous literature,

1:45:39 uh,

1:45:40 Jessica.

1:45:40 The debate about the,

1:45:41 uh,

1:45:42 a question from Laura Macides,

1:45:43 by the way,

1:45:44 the debate

1:45:45 about circularity focuses on the environmental aspects mainly,

1:45:49 but,

1:45:49 uh,

1:45:50 less so on the social aspects.

1:45:52 What do you think could be the major social Impact,

1:45:54 especially on jobs

1:45:55 and,

1:45:56 and Francois,

1:45:56 I know as well that the the Helen McArthur

1:45:58 Foundation did some analysis on the job creation aspect,

1:46:02 but,

1:46:02 uh,

1:46:02 initially,

1:46:03 Jessica,

1:46:03 uh she want to comment,

1:46:05 Francois,

1:46:06 please do it.

1:46:06 So do you think the transition from circularity

1:46:09 to,

1:46:09 uh,

1:46:10 to,

1:46:10 from linearity to circularity

1:46:12 in,

1:46:12 in fashion and textiles

1:46:14 will bring about more jobs or more,

1:46:16 more high-quality jobs

1:46:18 than what we have today?

1:46:21 Yes,

1:46:22 so I think there's,

1:46:23 and there's probably a lot of things you can look at,

1:46:25 um,

1:46:25 Henry,

1:46:26 when you look at the social impact or the social

1:46:29 benefits of the linear to circular transition.

1:46:32 I'll just say,

1:46:34 first,

1:46:34 probably the biggest one or one of the biggest ones is

1:46:37 affordability or access to

1:46:40 more affordable products and services.

1:46:42 So when again,

1:46:42 we,

1:46:43 we think about a product,

1:46:45 whether it's clothing.

1:46:46 Or

1:46:46 shoes or vehicles or whatever it might be,

1:46:49 having multiple lives,

1:46:51 um,

1:46:51 then that the cost of that product spread

1:46:54 across multiple people makes it much more affordable,

1:46:57 and that's much more accessible

1:46:59 to people across the world.

1:47:00 So I think that

1:47:01 that affordability,

1:47:02 accessibility piece is huge

1:47:05 from a social impact perspective.

1:47:07 Another big one that I just,

1:47:09 I do want to mention because it's,

1:47:10 it is directly linked to Environmental impact

1:47:13 is the

1:47:14 the

1:47:15 the health issues related to the negative environmental impacts that we see today

1:47:21 in the world of fashion and textiles.

1:47:23 So that could be

1:47:24 pollution,

1:47:25 it could be toxicity of dyes and other chemicals being

1:47:29 put into our water streams or put directly into our soil.

1:47:32 It could be the impact of clothing being washed

1:47:35 multiple times and Um,

1:47:37 you know,

1:47:37 microfibers or microplastics ending up in our drinking water

1:47:40 or ending up in our systems and our food.

1:47:43 So there's a huge,

1:47:44 you know,

1:47:45 environmental,

1:47:45 social health impact,

1:47:46 and as we know,

1:47:48 it's typically persons from

1:47:50 uniquely disadvantaged communities

1:47:52 that are

1:47:53 disproportionately impacted by those negative environmental consequences.

1:47:58 And then to your to your actual question,

1:48:00 um,

1:48:00 I completely believe.

1:48:01 That the job opportunities here are much greater,

1:48:04 right?

1:48:04 Because we're not talking about a one and done system,

1:48:06 a one and done linear system where I'm

1:48:08 creating something and then it goes somewhere else to be

1:48:11 just to be sold and shipped,

1:48:12 and then,

1:48:13 and then it's done,

1:48:14 right?

1:48:14 I'm creating

1:48:15 this very virtuous cycle or this ecosystem,

1:48:19 where multiple people can be part of

1:48:22 a reselling economy or a sharing economy,

1:48:25 um or an upcycling economy.

1:48:27 Right?

1:48:27 So you're kind of democratizing

1:48:29 our fashion world as well.

1:48:31 So I think there's job creation opportunities

1:48:34 from

1:48:35 the start of the value chain,

1:48:36 if I'm talking about material sciences and creation of new products,

1:48:40 um,

1:48:40 all the way through,

1:48:41 uh,

1:48:42 you know,

1:48:42 the,

1:48:43 the use of the products all the way through the collection,

1:48:46 um,

1:48:46 and then turning it back into other goods and services.

1:48:49 So,

1:48:50 yeah,

1:48:50 I think huge opportunities.

1:48:53 Uh,

1:48:53 taking a hook on this point of the,

1:48:55 the social impact,

1:48:56 uh,

1:48:57 going to,

1:48:57 to Lisa,

1:48:58 uh,

1:48:58 if I may,

1:48:59 uh,

1:48:59 speak on

1:49:00 moderators as well.

1:49:01 Lisa,

1:49:01 you've worked on an assessment

1:49:03 looking at the,

1:49:04 uh,

1:49:05 environmental and health impacts of,

1:49:07 of light industries in the developing countries.

1:49:09 Uh,

1:49:10 do you have something to say about

1:49:11 this,

1:49:12 uh,

1:49:12 this linkage between circular economy practices and

1:49:15 social impact?

1:49:16 This question came from Rebecca Klube from the Imperial College.

1:49:22 Yeah,

1:49:22 so we,

1:49:23 um,

1:49:24 we did a quite an extensive literature review,

1:49:26 sort of looking at the,

1:49:28 um,

1:49:28 the role that the textiles manufacturing industry,

1:49:32 uh,

1:49:32 took in terms of producing various different types of pollutants.

1:49:35 Um,

1:49:36 so we've had them mentioned here,

1:49:37 the sort of blind.

1:49:38 The dyes,

1:49:39 the bleachers,

1:49:40 the heavy metals that are all used in,

1:49:42 in the production of,

1:49:43 um,

1:49:43 textiles and then how they're released into the environment.

1:49:46 Um,

1:49:47 largely,

1:49:47 we tend to talk about water and water pollution,

1:49:49 but there's also,

1:49:50 um,

1:49:51 you know,

1:49:51 uh,

1:49:52 effects on contaminating soil as well.

1:49:55 Um,

1:49:56 and I think there were,

1:49:57 there were sort of two important aspects that came out of this.

1:49:59 The first was the people actually working in the factories,

1:50:02 as the sort of occupational health

1:50:04 and the impacts on those people.

1:50:06 Um,

1:50:07 As,

1:50:08 uh,

1:50:08 as Jessica,

1:50:09 I think said,

1:50:10 you know,

1:50:10 that they,

1:50:10 they also tend to be sort of more vulnerable,

1:50:13 um,

1:50:13 employees potentially,

1:50:15 um,

1:50:15 sort of often low skilled.

1:50:17 Uh,

1:50:17 there can sometimes be a gender dimension as well that there might be,

1:50:21 you know,

1:50:21 more women being affected by,

1:50:22 by some of these pollutants.

1:50:24 Um,

1:50:25 and there are various different ways in which

1:50:26 you might be able to overcome those impacts,

1:50:29 but they would require resources being put in by,

1:50:31 by the textile manufacturer.

1:50:33 So,

1:50:33 you know,

1:50:34 keep it.

1:50:34 As we all know a lot about now.

1:50:36 Um,

1:50:37 and then also we,

1:50:38 we also

1:50:39 looked at the sort of local communities and how the pollution,

1:50:42 which does get into the soil and the,

1:50:44 and the watercours was then affecting,

1:50:46 um,

1:50:46 local communities.

1:50:47 And again,

1:50:47 they may be

1:50:48 more vulnerable communities.

1:50:50 And I think Khalid in our

1:50:52 panel session was talking about this,

1:50:54 this,

1:50:54 um,

1:50:55 sort of a new move towards industrial zoning,

1:50:58 where you might be bringing together a whole host of different manufacturing.

1:51:01 Industries into a single location to try to benefit from the economies of scale

1:51:06 of,

1:51:07 uh,

1:51:07 some of the,

1:51:07 the,

1:51:08 um,

1:51:08 effluent pollutant treatment plants,

1:51:10 for example.

1:51:11 Um,

1:51:11 and I think there were,

1:51:12 there was some sort of,

1:51:13 it would be interesting to explore that further as to how

1:51:16 effective those sorts of implementations are.

1:51:19 Can you really scale up those things?

1:51:21 Are we really identifying and tackling the pollutants that are

1:51:24 causing most damage to human health and to occupational,

1:51:27 um,

1:51:27 health as well?

1:51:28 Um,

1:51:29 and,

1:51:29 and,

1:51:30 you know,

1:51:30 be thinking a little bit more about the regulation

1:51:32 and the policy to really target those pollutants that are

1:51:35 causing the,

1:51:36 the cancers and the neurotoxic effects,

1:51:38 and so on.

1:51:41 Thank you,

1:51:41 Lisa.

1:51:41 It's uh,

1:51:42 of course,

1:51:42 important to imagine a transition to a circular textiles and fashion industry

1:51:46 that has a lower,

1:51:48 uh,

1:51:48 the pollution effects on the air,

1:51:50 soils,

1:51:51 and water.

1:51:51 Uh,

1:51:52 Khalid,

1:51:52 I have a question for you

1:51:54 from,

1:51:54 um,

1:51:55 Raja

1:51:56 Daniel,

1:51:57 who asks about non-fashion textiles such as carpets,

1:52:01 curtains,

1:52:01 and bed linen.

1:52:03 What are your views on these products

1:52:05 to become circular?

1:52:06 Because I know that Master tax is also involved in uh non-fashion

1:52:10 products.

1:52:11 It's a very interesting,

1:52:13 uh,

1:52:13 frankly speaking,

1:52:14 so far the circularity of,

1:52:16 uh,

1:52:17 the economy is more focused on the export-driven,

1:52:20 uh,

1:52:20 business areas,

1:52:21 which is,

1:52:21 of course,

1:52:22 textiles and apparel,

1:52:23 home textiles and the whole

1:52:25 host of products.

1:52:27 Uh,

1:52:27 and the other,

1:52:28 uh,

1:52:28 business area that is basically leather-based products,

1:52:32 kind of a leather industry and leather-based product

1:52:34 that is also the export-driven business in Pakistan.

1:52:37 So,

1:52:37 uh,

1:52:38 that is one of the

1:52:40 Very largest polluters

1:52:42 in so many senses,

1:52:43 along with the textiles,

1:52:44 so the government and I have been focusing more on that.

1:52:48 Other than that,

1:52:48 like curtains are.

1:52:51 Car seats or for the domestic market,

1:52:54 frankly speaking,

1:52:55 that level of awareness has not come.

1:52:57 And I think it is required as uh during this whole discussion,

1:53:01 we could see that

1:53:02 in European Union,

1:53:04 in your ATA and World Bank,

1:53:06 they are now trying to create the awareness and so on and so forth.

1:53:09 So from the

1:53:11 buyer side and the manufacturing side,

1:53:13 things have already started moving in.

1:53:15 So I think as far as the

1:53:16 other non-textile industry is concerned other than the leather,

1:53:19 I think

1:53:20 it's it's it's awareness is required.

1:53:23 I understand that,

1:53:24 for example,

1:53:24 in food,

1:53:25 in the rice exports,

1:53:27 the European Union have imposed certain

1:53:30 strict kind of rules and regulation,

1:53:32 and ultimately people are obliged to follow that.

1:53:35 So I think in,

1:53:36 in that way,

1:53:37 at least the process and the awareness in the industry has started.

1:53:40 Business models have started emerging,

1:53:42 which need to be sustainable,

1:53:43 which need to be uh uh

1:53:45 circular

1:53:46 in its nature.

1:53:48 uh,

1:53:48 but as far as the domestic market is concerned,

1:53:50 I think it's a long way to go.

1:53:52 Thank,

1:53:53 thanks a lot,

1:53:53 Khalid.

1:53:53 It's really interesting to know

1:53:55 because those are also large markets,

1:53:57 uh,

1:53:57 even though fashion is about 60% of textiles worldwide,

1:54:01 there's still 40%.

1:54:02 There are many other things.

1:54:03 So,

1:54:04 uh,

1:54:04 question

1:54:05 goes to,

1:54:06 um,

1:54:07 to Sarah.

1:54:09 Uh,

1:54:09 Sarah,

1:54:10 I have a tough question for you here.

1:54:11 Um,

1:54:12 uh,

1:54:12 even if,

1:54:13 uh,

1:54:13 from deskta Nebratu,

1:54:14 even if most of the corporate companies talk

1:54:17 about their commitment to sustainability and sustainable production,

1:54:20 Uh,

1:54:21 uh,

1:54:21 most of their textile and garments facilities in developing countries

1:54:24 are largely operating in a linear structure of production.

1:54:28 How to change that?

1:54:30 Hm,

1:54:31 yeah,

1:54:31 good question.

1:54:33 I mean,

1:54:34 Yeah,

1:54:34 really we are on a transition

1:54:37 towards a circular

1:54:39 model,

1:54:39 towards a circular system.

1:54:40 We're not there yet.

1:54:41 We're not even close.

1:54:43 And

1:54:43 yeah,

1:54:44 so a large part of how we do business,

1:54:46 it is still linear and we're learning as we go.

1:54:50 And

1:54:50 yes,

1:54:51 but also I think to touch back on what we talked about a little bit in the panel,

1:54:56 and this really takes collaboration as well,

1:54:59 and

1:55:00 we need to shift.

1:55:03 We need a shift

1:55:04 across our entire

1:55:05 ecosystem.

1:55:06 Uh,

1:55:07 we can't just change one part of the business,

1:55:10 um,

1:55:10 and there we have to work together and also learn together,

1:55:14 um,

1:55:14 as we move towards scaling new business models,

1:55:18 also as we're trying to adapt circular design principles,

1:55:22 it is a learning curve there and

1:55:24 that we're working on together with the supply chain,

1:55:27 um,

1:55:27 because I mean they are also the experts in what they do.

1:55:31 And so I think the key is really

1:55:34 to

1:55:35 learn together

1:55:36 on this transition.

1:55:38 Absolutely.

1:55:39 And,

1:55:39 uh,

1:55:40 one final question before we go to the closing remarks by the World Bank

1:55:43 is to Marx.

1:55:44 Uh,

1:55:45 Marx,

1:55:45 uh,

1:55:45 do you think

1:55:46 that uh blockchain technology could be of help

1:55:49 in a more circular production system

1:55:51 and what further advancements,

1:55:53 uh,

1:55:53 would be needed for it to be effective?

1:55:54 I ask you because

1:55:56 your company has

1:55:57 this,

1:55:57 uh,

1:55:57 uh,

1:55:58 traceability return system that is

1:56:00 quite innovative.

1:56:02 Yeah,

1:56:02 um,

1:56:04 uh,

1:56:04 yeah,

1:56:04 blockchain's interesting.

1:56:05 I,

1:56:06 I,

1:56:06 I'm not sure if I can comment too much about it,

1:56:09 because I'm,

1:56:09 I'm,

1:56:09 I'm not an expert on it specifically,

1:56:11 but certainly,

1:56:12 what it does is offer the opportunity to give

1:56:15 more credible data to the,

1:56:17 uh,

1:56:17 source

1:56:18 of where things come from,

1:56:19 what they're,

1:56:20 what they're made,

1:56:21 made from.

1:56:21 I think what I'd just say is,

1:56:22 you know,

1:56:22 traceability,

1:56:24 like,

1:56:24 looking back into the supply chain,

1:56:26 is only half of the story.

1:56:27 It's not about finding out.

1:56:29 Where stuff comes from and talking about it,

1:56:30 it's finding out where stuff comes from and actually changing,

1:56:33 uh,

1:56:34 where it comes from,

1:56:34 how it's made and what it's,

1:56:35 what it's,

1:56:36 what it's made,

1:56:36 made from,

1:56:37 because we,

1:56:37 we,

1:56:38 we don't wanna just

1:56:39 be transparent

1:56:40 about,

1:56:40 uh,

1:56:41 supply chains.

1:56:41 We want to completely redesign them and change the direction.

1:56:44 But certainly,

1:56:45 what I will say is technology itself has a massive role to play here.

1:56:48 Tech by itself doesn't really do anything.

1:56:51 It's,

1:56:51 uh,

1:56:51 amplifies someone's intent.

1:56:53 And I would,

1:56:54 for anyone who's looking.

1:56:56 You know,

1:56:56 and hoping for a big change in the fashion industry,

1:56:58 I draw everyone's attention to companies like Airbnb or Uber,

1:57:03 um,

1:57:04 where they've taken a

1:57:07 software approach

1:57:09 to a large,

1:57:10 relatively underutilized

1:57:13 bunch of materials in the form of assets,

1:57:15 cars and houses,

1:57:16 and a massively increased utilization,

1:57:19 created a load of value.

1:57:20 And,

1:57:21 you know,

1:57:21 um,

1:57:22 Airbnb,

1:57:22 for example,

1:57:23 was,

1:57:24 Uh,

1:57:24 you know,

1:57:24 built

1:57:26 hundreds of thousands of hotel rooms without laying a brick.

1:57:28 It's been done in the cloud.

1:57:29 So I think that,

1:57:30 I think that,

1:57:31 you know,

1:57:31 technologies like that,

1:57:33 which empower people to,

1:57:36 um,

1:57:36 participate on the supply side using the internet,

1:57:39 have got,

1:57:40 uh,

1:57:40 uh,

1:57:41 uh,

1:57:41 uh,

1:57:42 the question in the right direction.

1:57:44 Um,

1:57:44 and,

1:57:44 and that's certainly why we,

1:57:46 we,

1:57:46 we're trying to do what we're trying to do.

1:57:49 Thank you,

1:57:49 Mark.

1:57:49 I have so many other questions that I might

1:57:51 be able to address here to point to panelists.

1:57:54 I'd like to thank the panelists and especially the audience for sending so many

1:57:57 questions over.

1:57:58 I'll now pass the,

1:57:59 the microphone to the World Bank for final conclusions.

1:58:03 Enrique for the really great discussion,

1:58:05 um,

1:58:08 and,

1:58:08 uh,

1:58:08 yes,

1:58:08 welcome Etienne

1:58:10 who is the senior specialist and also leading this learning series,

1:58:14 uh,

1:58:15 Etienne,

1:58:15 for your last words,

1:58:16 thanks.

1:58:18 Yeah,

1:58:19 I'll be,

1:58:19 I'll be brief because the discussions have been extremely

1:58:23 interesting and,

1:58:24 and,

1:58:24 and helpful.

1:58:25 Um,

1:58:25 first,

1:58:26 I,

1:58:26 I want to sincerely thank

1:58:28 Z and Henrique for setting this up and also

1:58:32 Francois from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation for

1:58:34 his insights and help in designing this.

1:58:36 A sincere thanks to Isabel for the opening remarks and,

1:58:39 and making sure that we do this collaboratively.

1:58:42 Um,

1:58:43 I'm in general surprised nobody mentioned Bernie Sanders' mittens.

1:58:48 Which I think were

1:58:51 reminded us all of,

1:58:52 of,

1:58:52 you know,

1:58:52 that,

1:58:53 that there are things happening at a very small scale,

1:58:56 um,

1:58:56 that

1:58:57 awareness is,

1:58:58 is a key part of this,

1:58:59 uh,

1:58:59 this,

1:59:00 this transition,

1:59:01 and it's important that we collaborate and we work together

1:59:04 in designing kind of a different vision for the sector.

1:59:07 Um,

1:59:08 I,

1:59:09 I,

1:59:09 I personally,

1:59:10 I mean,

1:59:10 we've been working on the sector for many years.

1:59:12 The bank and the IFC have many programs,

1:59:15 and the IFC,

1:59:15 especially,

1:59:16 um,

1:59:17 as the Global Partnership for,

1:59:18 for Cleaner Textiles,

1:59:19 which is,

1:59:20 has been running in Bangladesh and other,

1:59:21 other countries,

1:59:23 that is taking this very

1:59:24 comprehensive approach.

1:59:26 Looking at the demand and supply side of textiles

1:59:28 and trying to see where it can really make a dent in in in the industry.

1:59:33 The,

1:59:33 the challenge is,

1:59:35 uh,

1:59:35 for,

1:59:35 for me,

1:59:36 at least for my,

1:59:37 my,

1:59:37 this is mostly my personal view is,

1:59:39 is that the cost of environmental damage is not included in the final product.

1:59:45 Um,

1:59:45 and this is a,

1:59:46 a significant issue in at least the countries where,

1:59:49 where we work,

1:59:50 um,

1:59:50 because they absorb a lot of that environmental costs and the regulations,

1:59:54 and we haven't spoken about the basic regulations right

1:59:57 before we even get to the circular economy concept.

1:59:59 Ideally these are things

2:00:00 is that

2:00:02 they are not able to regulate the industry in a way where it doesn't harm the,

2:00:06 the country and its ability to grow,

2:00:08 and I think this is a,

2:00:10 Balance of pricing,

2:00:12 it's a very price sensitive industry.

2:00:14 Any changes made on the production side are going to be

2:00:16 uh accounted for in the product side,

2:00:19 um,

2:00:19 and making sure you find a balance between those elements

2:00:22 in a way that makes industry,

2:00:24 entire industry sustainable is going to be critical.

2:00:26 It's an extremely complicated industry.

2:00:29 Um,

2:00:29 it touches upon our more uh inner,

2:00:31 innert,

2:00:32 uh,

2:00:32 you know,

2:00:33 desires in terms of looking good,

2:00:35 uh,

2:00:35 but also comfort and,

2:00:36 And warmth and other types of uh

2:00:39 of emotions that that that that other products don't really have.

2:00:42 So it's hard to compare it

2:00:43 to an iPhone or other devices,

2:00:46 and therefore,

2:00:47 making sure that this is done,

2:00:49 um,

2:00:49 as was mentioned in a transitional phase.

2:00:51 And to me,

2:00:52 the question is,

2:00:52 what does the transition look like?

2:00:54 And how do we work with different parts

2:00:56 of value chain to actually enable that transition?

2:00:59 And I think we're,

2:01:00 as I mentioned,

2:01:01 we're not there yet,

2:01:02 but at least we understand the parameters of what needs to be done.

2:01:05 And there needs to be some kind of a global

2:01:08 link to bring these pieces together to really make them,

2:01:11 make us move towards a circular economy

2:01:13 in the textile

2:01:15 industry.

2:01:16 But again,

2:01:17 I want to thank everyone.

2:01:18 This is,

2:01:18 this is a journey.

2:01:19 This is not a conclusion.

2:01:20 This is the 7th session of our learning

2:01:23 series between the World Bank and our partners,

2:01:25 and we very much look forward to again having you.

2:01:28 Um,

2:01:29 part of the series and,

2:01:30 and learning from,

2:01:31 from,

2:01:31 as we tackle this issue in,

2:01:32 in different uh

2:01:34 sectors.

2:01:34 Uh,

2:01:34 I want to thank again the speakers and the panelists,

2:01:37 as well as the participants

2:01:38 who stayed up,

2:01:39 uh,

2:01:39 many hours to work on this,

2:01:41 and,

2:01:42 um,

2:01:42 and yeah,

2:01:42 and hope to look,

2:01:43 uh,

2:01:44 look forward to welcoming you again in the

2:01:46 next series on uh the construction industry.

2:01:49 So thank you very much to everyone.

2:01:54 Thank you,

2:01:55 everyone.

2:01:55 I'm closing this call.

2:01:58 Bye.

2:01:58 Have a good day.

2:02:02 Bye.